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Made in pl
Horrific Howling Banshee




I'm slightly lost in the rules and I'm not sure if I understand them correctly.

Let's assume my army consists of 2 detachments.
a) A Raven Guard successor chapter called Raptors led by Lias Issodon filled with some units. There are only Raven Guard units there.
b) Salamander chapter units led by a Captain. There are only Salamander units there.

As long as each detachment is pure, can I have 2 different chapter tactics in my army? In this case Raven Guard and Salamanders.

Do I have access to both chapters stratagems regardless of who the warlord is? I know that not all stratagems can be mixed - those restricted by <chapter>

If I choose Lias as my warlord, he has to choose Raven Guard warlord trait. If I choose the Captain, is he free to choose any Space Marine warlord trait or the Salamanders' one?

Relics can only be taken by the detachment that has the warlord, right?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/09/24 01:32:28


"I'm rather intrigued to discover that my opponent, who looks like a perfectly civilised person, is in fact mathematically capable" 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka




Vanished Completely

1) Yes as both are Space Marine Detachments and every unit has the same Chapter:
If your army is Battle-forged, all INFANTRY , BIKER and DREADNOUGHT
units in a Space Marines Detachment gain a Chapter Tactic, so long as every unit
in that Detachment is drawn from the same Chapter.

- Chapter Tactics

2) Yes,though do review the long answer below:
You get all the Stratagems listed by having a single Space Marine Detachment, even the ones not intended for your Chapter. There is a tiny problem with the below quoted Rule, as the underlined sentence really reads as half a sentence to me. The Authors have brought out attention to some of the Stratagems we have access to are 'chapter specific' but they fail to tell us what this actually means. They do not tell us we lose access to these Stratagems if we do not have a Detachment of coinciding Units, nor does it inform us that we can not use these Stratagems on other Chapters... just that some are specific. This means, from a written standpoint, those 'sub-titles' are meaningless aside from bringing our attention to the fact they are Chapter specific for... reasons.

Luckily, those Chapter specific Stratagems all reference Models with the Chapter in question... feel free to waste Command Points on useless Stratagems.

If your army is Battle-forged and includes any Space Marines Detachments (excluding Auxiliary Support Detachments),
you have access to the Stratagems shown here, and can spend Command Points to activate them. These reflect the unique
strategies used by the Adeptus Astartes on the battlefield.


Some of the Stratagems listed here are unique to specific Chapters. If your Chapter does not have any associated Stratagem....
- Stratagems

3) I can not give you an exact answer for Lias Issodon, still looking for the Datasheet to see if it changes the default but I doubt it, but for default you are correct:
If you wish, you can pick a Chapter Warlord Trait from the list
below instead of the Space Marine Warlord Traits to the left, but
only if your Warlord is from the relevant Chapter.

- Chapter Warlord Traits


The mightiest heroes of the Adeptus Astartes are exemplars of their
Chapter’s methods of waging war. If a named character is your
Warlord, they must be given the associated Warlord Trait of their
Chapter. For example, if Marneus Calgar is your Warlord, he would
have the Ultramarines’ Adept of the Codex Warlord Trait.

- NAMED CHARACTERS AND WARLORD TRAITS

4) No, you are free to give the Relic to any Character in your Army:
If your army is led by a Space Marines Warlord, you may give one of
the following Chapter Relics to a Space Marine CHARACTER in your
army. Named characters such as Marneus Calgar already have one or
more artefacts, and cannot be given any of the following relics.

- Chapter Relics

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/09/24 08:38:43


8th made it so I can no longer sway Tau onto the side of Chaos, but they will eventually turn aside from their idea of the Greater Good to embrace the Greatest of pleasures.  
   
Made in pl
Horrific Howling Banshee




That is enlightening! Thanks a lot for the hard work. Didn't want to somehow "cheat" by a coincidence.

"I'm rather intrigued to discover that my opponent, who looks like a perfectly civilised person, is in fact mathematically capable" 
   
Made in gb
Norn Queen






Because Lias Issodon is from the Raptors, which are a Raven Guard Successor, RaW you must use Raven Guard Traits, Stratagems and Tactics, you cannot pick another set.
   
Made in de
Witch Hunter in the Shadows



Aachen

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Because Lias Issodon is from the Raptors, which are a Raven Guard Successor, RaW you must use Raven Guard Traits, Stratagems and Tactics, you cannot pick another set.

Based on what rule on what page?
At least Chapter Tactics I'm pretty sure should work even though you run e.g. Detachment 1=Raven Guard; Detachment 2=Salamanders.
Stratagems just say that you have to pick e.g. a Raven Guard unit, so there's no problem using both, as long as you adhere to the keyword restrictions.
If you pick a Raven Guard warlord, obviously you can only pick from the RG warlord traits, so I'll give you that. But the other two I don't understand where you're basing that on.
   
Made in gb
Norn Queen






nekooni wrote:
Based on what rule on what page?
Page 195: Codex Space Marines:
If your Chapter does not have an associated Chapter Tactic, use the Chapter Tactic of its founding Chapter. For example, Crimson Fists are a successor Chapter of the Imperial Fists, so should use the Chapter Tactic of the Imperial Fists. If you are unsure of a Chapter’s founding Chapter, either consult the background sections of our books or choose a Tactic from the table that best describes its character and fighting style.


Page 196: Codex Space Marines
Some of the Stratagems listed here are unique to specific Chapters. If your Chapter does not have any associated Stratagems, you can use the Stratagems of its founding Chapter. For example, Crimson Fists are a successor Chapter of
the Imperial Fists, so you can use the Bolter Drill Stratagem to affect a CRIMSON FISTS INFANTRY unit just as if were an IMPERIAL FISTS unit.


The rules literally tell you to look at the background. Raptors are a Raven Guard Successor. You want to use RAPTORS with the FW Special Character? You're locked to Raven Guard rules. If you want to use RAPTOORZ with a generic Captain, you can use any rules.
   
Made in de
Witch Hunter in the Shadows



Aachen

 BaconCatBug wrote:
nekooni wrote:
Based on what rule on what page?
Page 195: Codex Space Marines:
If your Chapter does not have an associated Chapter Tactic, use the Chapter Tactic of its founding Chapter. For example, Crimson Fists are a successor Chapter of the Imperial Fists, so should use the Chapter Tactic of the Imperial Fists. If you are unsure of a Chapter’s founding Chapter, either consult the background sections of our books or choose a Tactic from the table that best describes its character and fighting style.


Page 196: Codex Space Marines
Some of the Stratagems listed here are unique to specific Chapters. If your Chapter does not have any associated Stratagems, you can use the Stratagems of its founding Chapter. For example, Crimson Fists are a successor Chapter of
the Imperial Fists, so you can use the Bolter Drill Stratagem to affect a CRIMSON FISTS INFANTRY unit just as if were an IMPERIAL FISTS unit.


The rules literally tell you to look at the background. Raptors are a Raven Guard Successor. You want to use RAPTORS with the FW Special Character? You're locked to Raven Guard rules. If you want to use RAPTOORZ with a generic Captain, you can use any rules.


How is any of that relevant for the 2nd salamanders detachment? Or when picking a Warlord that isn't Issodon? You literally claimed that you have to use RG traits, statagems and tactics, with no qualifier at all, nor any source to support that claim. And now your entire response is focused entirely on something noone ever questioned in here.

Please explain to me why I would not be allowed to use the Salamanders CT or the Salamanders stratagem on the SALAMANDER units in my Salamanders Detachment while having chosen Issodon, who is in a different detachment (a Raven Guard detachment), as my warlord. While also using the Raven Guard CT and the Raven Guard stratagem on the RAVEN GUARD units in that Raven Guard detachment. What exactly prevents me from doing that?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/09/25 22:43:42


 
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block




It's not relevant to the salamanders. It's for successor chapters like the raptors. He's explaining to you that raptors use the Raven guard strategies and such. The salamanders use their own.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka




Vanished Completely

Their side argument begun with this post, so keep it in mind for context:
nekooni wrote:
 BaconCatBug wrote:
Because Lias Issodon is from the Raptors, which are a Raven Guard Successor, RaW you must use Raven Guard Traits, Stratagems and Tactics, you cannot pick another set.

Based on what rule on what page?
At least Chapter Tactics I'm pretty sure should work even though you run e.g. Detachment 1=Raven Guard; Detachment 2=Salamanders.
Stratagems just say that you have to pick e.g. a Raven Guard unit, so there's no problem using both, as long as you adhere to the keyword restrictions.
If you pick a Raven Guard warlord, obviously you can only pick from the RG warlord traits, so I'll give you that. But the other two I don't understand where you're basing that on.


Nekooni is pointing out that BaconCatBug's post is giving the misconception that, by taking Lias, the Player is forced to use only Raven Guard Tactics and Stratagems
BaconCatBug replied by posting a handful of Rules concerning which Chapter Tactics can be selected by the successor Chapter
Nekooni then asked exactly how does this prevent Salamanders Stratagems and Tactics from function independently
It is just a miscommunication between the two

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/09/26 22:06:32


8th made it so I can no longer sway Tau onto the side of Chaos, but they will eventually turn aside from their idea of the Greater Good to embrace the Greatest of pleasures.  
   
Made in de
Fresh-Faced New User




macexor wrote:

As long as each detachment is pure, can I have 2 different chapter tactics in my army? In this case Raven Guard and Salamanders.

Yes

macexor wrote:

Do I have access to both chapters stratagems regardless of who the warlord is? I know that not all stratagems can be mixed - those restricted by <chapter>

Yes
And you could even use stratagems specific for one faction on units on the other faction as long as the stratagems rule itself doesnt limit/permit that!
So, if you, for example, use a pure Chaos Space Marine detachment and a pure Death Guard detachment, you could use the Chaos Space Marine specific Stratagem "Tide of Traitors" on a unit of Chaos Cultists from the Death Guard detachment.
This isnt relevant for the current Space Marine stratagems, though, as every chapter specific stratagem also requires the corresponding chapter tactics on the unit that it is used on.

macexor wrote:

If I choose Lias as my warlord, he has to choose Raven Guard warlord trait. If I choose the Captain, is he free to choose any Space Marine warlord trait or the Salamanders' one?

No and Yes
Lias has not to choose the Raven Guard warlord trait as he isnt a Raven Guard character! The rules for chapter tactics and stratagems specifically state that you use the according rules from the founding chapter (or any if it is unclear) but the rule for warlord traits does not! Feel free to use "Storm of Fire" or any other generic Space Marine trait on Lias.
Also be aware that "Storm of Fire" only affects the units from the same chapter... So Lias' "Storm of Fire" would only affect your Raptors, not your Salamanders.

macexor wrote:

Relics can only be taken by the detachment that has the warlord, right?

No
If your Warlord is a Space Marine you can give one Relic to a Space Marine character - detachments and/or chapters do not matter, not even for the chapter specfic relics (e.g.: If Lias is your warlord, you could still use the "Salamanders Mantle" on your Salamanders Captain) .
Furthermore, if you Warlord is, for example, an Astra Militarum Platoon Commander but you also have a pure Space Marine detachment you could still use the "Relics of the Chapter" stratagem and give one or two Space Marine relics to Space Marine characters.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/10/05 17:50:26


 
   
 
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