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SeanDrake wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
When have I said anything about the rules for the Stormraven?

All I said was I find 8th to be quite lazy, with Auras'o'Plenty and every man and his squig being able to cause mortal wounds through some rule or stratagem.

Yeah it plays like a wired mishmash of AoS and Warmahordes, but less fun.

Your best abilities are tied to buff bubbles that are often slower than the units they support, leading to to the best option being to remain stationary in a game that is supposed to be about taking objectives.

Alternatively you end up with AoS style conga lines of doom, schrodingers Baneblade and all the other good stuff.

Also I am not sure GW have quite got the hang of synergy yet the have Skornegy nailed though. But at least they are trying to bring the designs more in line with modern games they have left the 80's and may have reached the mid 90's but it is a start.

What is "shrodinger's Baneblade"? Is it both alive and dead at the same time until we observe it?

 Kanluwen wrote:

 schadenfreude wrote:
The regiment bonuses are pretty large. My #1 hope and prediction is that conscripts remain 3 points, but have no regiment key word. They have not completed any form of military training so no regiment equals no orders and no regiment bonuses. The only buff that will still work on them comes out of a commissar's bolt gun.

Once again, unless there is an extensive fluff overhaul--this is not necessarily true.

"Conscripts" is a catch-all term for anything from the Cadian Whiteshields(extremely young Guardsmen in all but name, many of whom have grown up engaged in wars with live ammunition between themselves and other Whiteshield Regiments) to the Valhallan nonsense of "Derp send in da next waaaaaaaaaaave!" to the Penal Legions to Hive Gangers who are forming ad hoc auxiliary forces, etc.

Out of all the Regiments we know of, only Catachan seems to lack the idea of Conscripts but they go against the grain on a lot of things as their organization seems to be closer to the Tempestus than anything else(multiple squads operating independently).

Additionally, gameplay wise, the things that everyone whine about is their ability to 'tank' incoming damage thanks to the Commissars and a wild misunderstanding of how Orders work such as some people claiming that Conscripts can get Ordered from outside of Order range because of Voxes or how they can fall back and still FRSRF.

White shields are not trained to the level of cadians.

All of the rest you have described are not part of a regiment and are unfamiliar with it's doctrine.

You did touch on one huge point: Bring back the penal legions.

 schadenfreude wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 schadenfreude wrote:
The regiment bonuses are pretty large. My #1 hope and prediction is that conscripts remain 3 points, but have no regiment key word. They have not completed any form of military training so no regiment equals no orders and no regiment bonuses. The only buff that will still work on them comes out of a commissar's bolt gun.

Once again, unless there is an extensive fluff overhaul--this is not necessarily true.

"Conscripts" is a catch-all term for anything from the Cadian Whiteshields(extremely young Guardsmen in all but name, many of whom have grown up engaged in wars with live ammunition between themselves and other Whiteshield Regiments) to the Valhallan nonsense of "Derp send in da next waaaaaaaaaaave!" to the Penal Legions to Hive Gangers who are forming ad hoc auxiliary forces, etc.

Out of all the Regiments we know of, only Catachan seems to lack the idea of Conscripts but they go against the grain on a lot of things as their organization seems to be closer to the Tempestus than anything else(multiple squads operating independently).

Additionally, gameplay wise, the things that everyone whine about is their ability to 'tank' incoming damage thanks to the Commissars and a wild misunderstanding of how Orders work such as some people claiming that Conscripts can get Ordered from outside of Order range because of Voxes or how they can fall back and still FRSRF.

White shields are not trained to the level of cadians.

All of the rest you have described are not part of a regiment and are unfamiliar with it's doctrine.

You did touch on one huge point: Bring back the penal legions.

I mean, conscripts are pretty familiar with Valhallan doctrine.

After all, their infantry regiments' doctrine is "here are some conscripts."

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

SilverAlien wrote:

 gainsay wrote:
Basic guard squads broken?! You obviously do not play imperial guard my good sir. Please explain this logic.

Broken now? No. But they are still the third best chaff in the game in terms of durability already, behind conscripts and brimstones. So if conscripts get a nerf but normal guard units get a buff to durability and no price increase, nothing changes besides which guard unit every imperium player takes. Compare them to termagaunts or cultists, or everything in R&H, better stats and options for the same price as said units. The fact guard players think normal infantry squads are bad yet CSM players are glad to have the strictly inferior cultists as a troop option instead of being forced to use normal CSM squads kinda gives you an idea how tactical squads fare as well. Normal guard infantry is already great, it's just overshadowed by conscripts.

As for people insulting me, remember when you insulted me for saying conscripts were broken? Funny how that turned out.

I don't think I've met any guard players who think infantry squads are bad, it's pretty obvious from the getgo that they are very good, it's just they're overshadowed by conscripts and stormtroopers who get flashier options and abilities. I run predominately infantry squads and do fairly well with 0 conscripts, albeit I'm in a pretty casual area. I'm sure I'd get wrecked pretty hard by an area that's actually trying.

I use three infantry squads and they are basically a 10 wound missile launcher for 60points that are very squishy. They really dont do much other than die or wrap stuff. Saying they are "OP" because of point cost is ridiculous. Vets in a chimera are actually really good but serve an entirely different purpose than conscripts so why compare the two?

Since this is a committee and all, how about a unit that for 10pts a model you get a lance, laspistol, chainsword, two wounds and they can deepstrike. Thats a much better deal than guardmens squads...

I'm just excited that GW is giving my 24 year old IG models actual rules and if they suck or not im happy anyways. I thought my minis were offically dead a long time long ago.

 vonjankmon wrote:
I have a feeling the reasoning behind the Catachan ability to reroll number of hits went something like this:

Designer A: Catachans should be really good at using flamers and flame weapons, what can we do to buff that for them?

Designer B: Well we could let them reroll the number of hits for flamer weapons.

Designer A: Let them reroll the number of hits for any weapon, got it.

Designer B: Wait, no...ah never mind, sure go ahead.

If the Catachan are based upon Vietnam War era tactics and Rambo.. Wouldn't they be really good at bombing people hiding in the jungles as well? Demolition Charges and Explosives are also the realm of Catachan, and destroying peoples cover/bombing them when they think they are safe would be a good way of showing it.

Yeah I have said it before (though apparently not in this thread):

Of the three Regiments who got playable Special Character Baneblades, you have:

Koenig Armoured (fair enough, tank regiment)
Armageddon Steel Legion (still known for it's vehicles)
Catachans

So clearly, GW thinks Catachans are at least to some extent familiar with and routinely use armoured vehicles, to the point where they gave them a special-character superheavy in Warzone: Pandorax.

Well yes, they have to. I mean as much as everyone likes to dot on the idea of somehow superhuman Catachans who don't use transports, vehicles, or anything else at all..

They would have to in order to be a viable regiment. If they couldn't operate even your basic chimera they'd be having some major issues, and sometimes they will find worlds that require some more massive firepower then "Men shootin' from the tree's" can provide.

So beyond the constant crying people. Catachan still sucks imho +1 str is useless and+1 ld is mostly useless on all bit kinda straken it would have been decent on rough riders and ogryns but nope. And catachan have the most ogryns but nope still.

The multi shot vehicle wpn buff still doesn't make tanks that suck good enough to take.

The deathstrike strategem still is useless for a massive 3cp because while it's a ton on mortal wounds on a single unit it's pointless when the death strike will be lucky to go off before turn 5...

The only thing catachan tactics are good for are a 2-3 basilisk platforms and harker (as long as he wasn't nerfed).

Also I fully expect scions to get -1 hit past 12in so you have to choose between rapid fire plasma or -1 hit.

Mordian Iron Guard

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/09/26/regiment-focus-mordian-sep26gw-homepage-post-2/

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
When have I said anything about the rules for the Stormraven?

All I said was I find 8th to be quite lazy, with Auras'o'Plenty and every man and his squig being able to cause mortal wounds through some rule or stratagem.

To be honest I find the number of Mortal Wounds in 8th much less numerous than in AoS. And thats something because 8th has more models with invulnerables and 2+ saves. Personally I like it this way.

Okay, now I'm going to say the people talking about power creep had a point. The most power index army gets the best codex it looks like.

Well boys, are Leman Russes fixed now?

Wow, there's a lot there.

So Conscripts definitely benefit from doctrines still. Leman Russes can fire their main guns twice at full BS while moving up to half of their maximum speed. There's a generic 1 CP stratagem that lets you Overwatch on a 5+.

The Mordian order turns plasma guns into fantastic sniper rifles. Their trait seems a lot less impressive, but it's not nothing.

Well I see the era of simplification and balance is gone.

That was short.

 ph34r wrote:
Well boys, are Leman Russes fixed now?

offensively with point reduction and double fire primary yes. They are still about as durable as a wet paper towel but if plasma drop gets nerfed then we have a strong return of the tank company.

I've never seen anyone play mordians. I've seen steel legion, tallarn, dkok, Elysian, Valhallan and vostroyan... never seen praetorian either..

Yeah, I think people will be playing Mordia to get the order, with the other stuff being a bonus. Suddenly, a lot of almost unkillable blobs will be getting a lot weaker... no more hiding weak buff characters behind a horde.

Okay, so Mordians suck, like I expected them to but holy damn that LR buff when you use it with Catachans AND they even had the tanks discounted. Well played GW! Huehuehuehue!

HOLY ACTUAL feth WHAT

*panics*

Superheavy tanks can fire overwatch even if there's an enemy unit within 1" already and now they can do it hitting on 5s (or 4s if they're Mordian).

People are going to call me OP. *cri*

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
Well I see the era of simplification and balance is gone.

That was short.

Curious why you say this? The rules are still clear and simple. The content is still incredibly condensed compared to 7th with it's love of random formations everywhere. Balance wise all I'm seeing is units that needed a boost (leman russ) getting it and most stuff staying pretty much the same. Nothing in there is incredibly good and nothing in it affects the current IG lists.

 Zewrath wrote:
Okay, so Mordians suck, like I expected them to but holy damn that LR buff when you use it with Catachans AND they even had the tanks discounted. Well played GW! Huehuehuehue!

People have to run the numbers because a majority of leman ruses are not that much better w catachan. I'm sure another doctrine is better.

Also confused is the mordian sniper rule veteran or infantry .

I am not surprised to see that conscripts get regimental tactics. If they didn’t, you might have ended up with problems where not all the units in the detachment were from a single regiment. If IG work like all the other codices so far, that would have meant they’d lose their regimental tactics.

Come to think of it, this might be a problem for other types of unit too. All the various auxiliaries (ogryns, commissars, psykers and so on) won’t be from the <regiment>. I wonder if there’s a way around this, short of taking a vanguard full of plasma scions (which would be a huge hardship, I’m sure you agree).

Anyway regiment tactics aren't the problem with conscripts. The problem is how they interact with commissars (a big bonus for a very low 3 point cost) and orders (hugely efficient when given to a vast unit). It's those problems that I hope they fix - especially the commissar one. If they did that I'd have no issue with them getting some rerolls - though amusingly Mordian conscripts are basically as good at overwatch as they are at firing normally.

Really happy to see that Leman Russ are getting a buff. 2D6 shot battlecannons sound like lots of fun… especially for catachans, now I think about it. I demand to see the steel legion preview immediately.

gungo wrote:

 Zewrath wrote:
Okay, so Mordians suck, like I expected them to but holy damn that LR buff when you use it with Catachans AND they even had the tanks discounted. Well played GW! Huehuehuehue!

People have to run the numbers because a majority of leman ruses are not that much better w catachan. I'm sure another doctrine is better.

Also confused is the mordian sniper rule veteran or infantry .

It's an order, so it'll be usable with all Mordian infantry. They bring up veterans because veterans can bring more plasma guns at higher BS.

Honestly, LRBTs have similar firepower to Baneblades now ... Baneblades are still better, and I'm not complaining, but I'm happy to see my Super Heavy Tank Regiment be one of many viable Imperial Guard armoured formations rather than just being the only useful one.

Leman Russes could be viable now. Especially if they are Catachan! You get to reroll BOTH 2D6 S8 AP-2 D3 shots ... Sounding a hell of a lot better. Imagine if they "fix" the exterminator autocannon and it can for twice. Woof.

gungo wrote:

 Zewrath wrote:
Okay, so Mordians suck, like I expected them to but holy damn that LR buff when you use it with Catachans AND they even had the tanks discounted. Well played GW! Huehuehuehue!

People have to run the numbers because a majority of leman ruses are not that much better w catachan. I'm sure another doctrine is better.

Also confused is the mordian sniper rule veteran or infantry .

Looks like it's just an order for mordians.

SeanDrake wrote:

 Silentz wrote:
Sean, do you not sometimes bore yourself? I can't believe you can make it to the end of your own posts.

Yeah I can manage more than one sentence, but I will not rub it in I know some people struggle.

But care to refute my points?

The rules exist to sell God awful models with a high chance of them being subsequently nerfed due to "feedback" which will be shortly after they get rid of the on hand stock.

So now we're crummy interneters if we don't write every post like it's a formal letter?

 Tyr13 wrote:
Yeah, I think people will be playing Mordia to get the order, with the other stuff being a bonus. Suddenly, a lot of almost unkillable blobs will be getting a lot weaker... no more hiding weak buff characters behind a horde.

I was thinking about it, and while it looks good at first, what do guard have that could use it? Normal lasguns don't do anything (a full unit of conscripts won't kill a basic chaos lord I realized, much less a terminator lord). A command squad with four plasma in RF range, which is a major issue as you'll know if you've ever tried using short range psychic powers on characters, overcharging their plasma won't do it either.

They also won't have any way to get close but a chimera, as deepstriking scions can't use it.

All in all, it has moments, but it isn't that amazing.

Interestingly the Mordian article has a picture of a Lascannon they don't make anymore.

gungo wrote:

 Zewrath wrote:
Okay, so Mordians suck, like I expected them to but holy damn that LR buff when you use it with Catachans AND they even had the tanks discounted. Well played GW! Huehuehuehue!

People have to run the numbers because a majority of leman ruses are not that much better w catachan. I'm sure another doctrine is better.

Also confused is the mordian sniper rule veteran or infantry .

IIRC the average result of d6 with reroll is ~4,47. So a rough average of 9 shots rather than 7 shots. Unless the other doctrines include something Raven Guard-esque bonus, I don't see the point in not taking free buffs to your tanks and artillery.

infantry from the looks of it. And lasrifles are rapid fire weapons too. The whole squad can open up on that pesky support model.