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SilverAlien wrote:

Daedalus81 wrote:


So it's not possible for them to make further changes in the future? Isn't it better to make incremental nerfs instead of making one huge one and then having to back up?

It's also entirely possible for them to simply reverse if they go to far. It's also easier to find a point between two known points than one that's only known to be larger/smaller than two known points. Larger balance changes carry no more risk than small ones if the responsiveness is actually true, and given that a single weak unit has far less effect than a single strong unit, there really is no justification for an overwhelming amount of caution here.

So again, if they can't figure out what I just said independently or think they actually fixed conscripts, we shouldn't really hold hope for them managing to balance anything later either.

If they don't get it exactly right this time then it's impossible to ever do it? Your absolutism is absurd.

They do carry more risk, because people will flame them for "going back".

That aside if the internal balance of the book is better, which it appears to be, then people will be less likely to use conscripts as their tool over something else.

Yes the entire army being op will indeed minimize the usage of any single element, that's not really hopeful though?

Also, I didn't say they could I said it didn't seem likely.

As for being at risk of being flamed, they are getting flamed no matter what. They are getting flamed for not going far enough now by some, if they nerf them again they will get flamed by people who think they are fine. Honestly the fact no one thinks they went to far, not even hardcore waac players, kinda shows how pointless the change was.

Conscripts as allies to other imperial armies got strictly worse unless the individual is willing to take an entire detachment of IG in his army(using up one of his precious 3). The buffs are only for PURE IG detachments and even then it is mainly units that were not seen before and brings about a variety of lists/play styles that people can play.

We will see how it plays out on the tabletop. I am hoping for a mortars nerf, even if its just making them pay for both wounds on the base(so from 4 to 8) will be a significant aid against that units spam.

Combined squads will actually IMO make regular infantry more valuable than conscripts(however this once again requires dedicating a full detachment to IG.

i actually like where the game is slowly going. Each codex offers some cool strategems and makes the soup armies less and less appealing, the first "imperial" list I put together in 8th had like 4-6 CP, I can't imagine wanting to play my marine or guard force with less than 12 now.

I'd even say some of the strategems in this make the ones in the marine codex look crappy by comparison. I'd have rather had a morale interaction on a 4+ regardless of Commissar for the Conscripts, but I like the line they took on them, if they raised the cost of infantry by 1ppm as well, I'm sold. (saw somewhere else, a rumor that heavy weapons went up 1ppm, so I have hope)

In the deathguard book the new mortar tank had a minimum range of 12 inches, I'd love to see many of the indirect fire weapons in ALL armies have something like that. Not going to happen, but it would nice.

SilverAlien wrote:
Yes the entire army being op will indeed minimize the usage of any single element, that's not really hopeful though?

Also, I didn't say they could I said it didn't seem likely.

As for being at risk of being flamed, they are getting flamed no matter what. They are getting flamed for not going far enough now by some, if they nerf them again they will get flamed by people who think they are fine. Honestly the fact no one thinks they went to far, not even hardcore waac players, kinda shows how pointless the change was.

Wow, thanks Nostradamus

I hadn't realized after seeing only a handful of rules all of IG is OP. Good to know!

So if you realize that regardless of what GW does, someone somewhere will flame them then why bother to say you have no hopes in them balancing? Please show me a company that is 100% pure internal balance for their minis game and no one has issues with it.

I get its beyond peoples reasoning/mental ability to get that GW is actually listening to its playing to improve their game, but yes its an actual thing. If all lists are the same, the game gets dull, dull game from your tourney players = trickle down effect to the casual players that will get the mindset of "don't bother with X cause it sucks", and thus a fall in sales.

Instead of being all doom and gloom (hard I know) realize GW is gradually trying to balance, small steps at a time instead of beating something to death so its unusable.

 Saevus wrote:
i actually like where the game is slowly going. Each codex offers some cool strategems and makes the soup armies less and less appealing, the first "imperial" list I put together in 8th had like 4-6 CP, I can't imagine wanting to play my marine or guard force with less than 12 now.

I'd even say some of the strategems in this make the ones in the marine codex look crappy by comparison. I'd have rather had a morale interaction on a 4+ regardless of Commissar for the Conscripts, but I like the line they took on them, if they raised the cost of infantry by 1ppm as well, I'm sold. (saw somewhere else, a rumor that heavy weapons went up 1ppm, so I have hope)

In the deathguard book the new mortar tank had a minimum range of 12 inches, I'd love to see many of the indirect fire weapons in ALL armies have something like that. Not going to happen, but it would nice.

.

Sure for mortars, but just leave my basilisks alone

str00dles1 wrote:
I hadn't realized after seeing only a handful of rules all of IG is OP. Good to know!

So if you realize that regardless of what GW does, someone somewhere will flame them then why bother to say you have no hopes in them balancing? Please show me a company that is 100% pure internal balance for their minis game and no one has issues with it.

I get its beyond peoples reasoning/mental ability to get that GW is actually listening to its playing to improve their game, but yes its an actual thing. If all lists are the same, the game gets dull, dull game from your tourney players = trickle down effect to the casual players that will get the mindset of "don't bother with X cause it sucks", and thus a fall in sales.

Instead of being all doom and gloom (hard I know) realize GW is gradually trying to balance, small steps at a time instead of beating something to death so its unusable.

He's the one who was arguing that internal balance would be better so fewer conscripts, which would literally mean more of the army was OP.

There will always be balance issues, but when I can show a unit would still be superior to its competitors if it's price were increased that should be a no brainer to fix. If they can't figure out that's an issue it's a miracle they learned to read and write, or dress themselves for that matter.

Conscripts would, again, be directly superior to almost every other equivalent unit a 4ppm. That's not getting beaten to death, except in the minds of guard players.

 Leth wrote:
Conscripts as allies to other imperial armies got strictly worse unless the individual is willing to take an entire detachment of IG in his army(using up one of his precious 3). The buffs are only for PURE IG detachments and even then it is mainly units that were not seen before and brings about a variety of lists/play styles that people can play.

Combined squads will actually IMO make regular infantry more valuable than conscripts(however this once again requires dedicating a full detachment to IG.

Everyone already could do this, devoting a battalion to guard isn't in anyways difficult. Imperial soup won't have any issues. Conscripts got buffed for soup lists.

Combined squads slightly increases order efficiency at the cost of cp. I have no idea why people thinks this makes normal infantry better. Your troops job is to act as meatshield and squat on objectives, conscripts do it better with or without combined squads for normal units.

Some comments based on stuff heard from the Warhammer TV stuff:

Some superheavy weapons are being tweaked to be better (WHAT THIS IS AMAZING)

Tallarn Superheavies count all their weapons as Assault (This is pretty good I guess - REALLY good if you love your Heavy Flamers and your Crush Them! stratagem).

Now there are 3 Regiment rules I have to choose from D:

 Saevus wrote:
i actually like where the game is slowly going. Each codex offers some cool strategems and makes the soup armies less and less appealing, the first "imperial" list I put together in 8th had like 4-6 CP, I can't imagine wanting to play my marine or guard force with less than 12 now.

I'd even say some of the strategems in this make the ones in the marine codex look crappy by comparison. I'd have rather had a morale interaction on a 4+ regardless of Commissar for the Conscripts, but I like the line they took on them, if they raised the cost of infantry by 1ppm as well, I'm sold. (saw somewhere else, a rumor that heavy weapons went up 1ppm, so I have hope)

In the deathguard book the new mortar tank had a minimum range of 12 inches, I'd love to see many of the indirect fire weapons in ALL armies have something like that. Not going to happen, but it would nice.

I like how Stratagems change how we play, they are cool, they do some heavy lifting, and really change your army layout. Being forced to NOT take "da best unit" 6 times and actually diversify your army to fill in those elite and fast attack slots really has invigorated my lists and forced me to try all new units.

It looks like these new stratagems have more flavor and really are characterful to what guard is. I think space marines suffered from having more generic ones because they themselves are on the "generic" scale when it comes to tactics and game play. I imagine down the road they will fill out the stratagems in newer books.

As for infantry and point changes, my personal bet is that all infantry get a point increase of 1 ppm to compensate for these new rules and stratagems.

I was hoping there would be a nerf to conscript's commissar benefits...imo that is the real issue with their durability.

 greyknight12 wrote:
I was hoping there would be a nerf to conscript's commissar benefits...imo that is the real issue with their durability.

This is the main issue. 3ppm and basically being fearless makes for the best area denial unit in the game by a long margin. Squad size nerf is laughable, I was running 30 man group in my lists already. Order nerf is a thing although with a command reroll thats a 75% shot at the order you wanted anyway. Still nice, however it is more then made up for by doctrines. Suddenly I don't need to fight twice when my conscripts are s4, yet I still can half the time. I still think commissars should have provided their leadership to nearby units and a reroll to failed moral. I like the idea of him executing a guardsmen to keep them in line, but currently it's far to easy to abuse.

 Galas wrote:
Wow, I love the Valhallan rules, they are so fluffy and... fun to use.

What is this fluff? We can't have this in our game! Everything has to be clinical and tournament based!

Dunno. Flavour aside, Strategems seem to make 40K even more a 1-2 turn game than it already is.

People burn through command points in the early game, because most are best used when your army is at full potential, meaning things are more effective/efficient turn 1 and possibly turn 2, meaning those turns are even more important (or loopsided) in determining the outcome of the overall game.

I would love to see GW add some mechanics for better strategems that only work later in the game and/or mechanisms where you have more CP if you save them for a few turns or some such, to give more incentives to play/plan for beyond turn 3 or 4.

Wonderwolf wrote:
Dunno. Flavour aside, Strategems seem to make 40K even more a 1-2 turn game than it already is.

People burn through command points in the early game, because most are best used when your army is at full potential, meaning things are more effective/efficient turn 1 and possibly turn 2, meaning those turns are even more important (or loopsided) in determining the outcome of the overall game.

I would love to see GW add some mechanics for better strategems that only work later in the game and/or mechanisms where you have more CP if you save them for a few turns or some such, to give more incentives to play/plan for beyond turn 3 or 4.

Eh this is highly dependent on the stratagem you are using. My superheavy tanks will love the Crush Them! stratagem, but untimely use will just be a massive failure (and could actually be detrimental). Similarly, using Send In The Next Wave is incredibly situational.

Wonderwolf wrote:
Dunno. Flavour aside, Strategems seem to make 40K even more a 1-2 turn game than it already is.

People burn through command points in the early game, because most are best used when your army is at full potential, meaning things are more effective/efficient turn 1 and possibly turn 2, meaning those turns are even more important (or loopsided) in determining the outcome of the overall game.

I would love to see GW add some mechanics for better strategems that only work later in the game and/or mechanisms where you have more CP if you save them for a few turns or some such, to give more incentives to play/plan for beyond turn 3 or 4.

That's a failure on the part of Command Points though.

If they replenished or had some other mechanic beyond "You get more for building your army a certain way", I could see it being a wildly different situation.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Eh this is highly dependent on the stratagem you are using. My superheavy tanks will love the Crush Them! stratagem, but untimely use will just be a massive failure (and could actually be detrimental). Similarly, using Send In The Next Wave is incredibly situational.

True. Though I doubt anyone will ever use Send the Next Wave should it really cost reinforcement points.

Just meaning "Strategems in General". Re-rolls, shoot twice, etc., etc..

Most games I played, they are disproportionally used early in the game. Along with 1st turn Deep Strike, etc.., it feels Turn 1 is more important even than it already was previously.

I know they're objective cheap, but let's not completely ignore the cost of the commissar when looking at conscripts. Even if you have one commissar for two 30 man squads, that makes the squads 3.5 pts a piece, effectively. It's a cost effective and very strong module, but it does require outside support pieces, which have non-zero costs.

We also don't know the final commissar rules. They could increase their cost, change the way summary execution works, reduce the range, or even put a LD floor on summary execution.

OTOH, if conscripts exist as things, there is still a secret weapon in the IG toolbox: Insance Bravery. IG can have a huge number of command points, and for two CP, you can keep a conscript squad intact, no questions asked.

 Polonius wrote:
I know they're objective cheap, but let's not completely ignore the cost of the commissar when looking at conscripts. Even if you have one commissar for two 30 man squads, that makes the squads 3.5 pts a piece, effectively. It's a cost effective and very strong module, but it does require outside support pieces, which have non-zero costs.

We also don't know the final commissar rules. They could increase their cost, change the way summary execution works, reduce the range, or even put a LD floor on summary execution.

OTOH, if conscripts exist as things, there is still a secret weapon in the IG toolbox: Insance Bravery. IG can have a huge number of command points, and for two CP, you can keep a conscript squad intact, no questions asked.

There's also Inquisitors who, while the same price as a Lord commissar, can deny enemy psychic powers and are pretty fighty, while at the same time can completely prevent a conscript squad from suffering any morale casualties at all (though you'd need one per squad).

From Warhammer TV:

Tallarn
Infantry units can Advance and fire any weapon type except Heavy. When they do so they do not suffer the usual penalties to hit for Assault weapons.

Vehicles do not suffer the penalty to their hit rolls for moving and firing Heavy weapons. Titanic Vehicle can Advances and fire and then it treats all Heavy weapons it is equipped with as Assault weapons until the end of the turn.

Cadian
Re-roll hits of 1 in shooting phase if they didn't move in the previous movement phase. If an Infantry unit with this Doctrine is issued Take Aim! and did not move in the previous movement phase, re-roll all failed hits.

Militarum Tempestus
Get an extra shot with their guns for each 6+ to hit when the target is within half range.

Steel Legion
Infantry double their rapid fire at 18" instead of half range. Steel Legion Vehicles treat AP -1 as AP 0.

The Scion doctrine is actually pretty optimized for plasma drops. It gets them back up to almost the same efficiency as Elysians if plasma guns did not increase in price (prediction: plasma guns increased in price).

I'm kind of glad for Imperial Guard players that they get a cool codex full of fluffy rules and powerful stratagems, but I can't help thinking it's almost provocative to release a codex like that after GW has half-pissed the AdMech codex with half of the forge-worlds being useless and so few rework/points adjustments on units that desperately need it. Meanwhile IG gets cheap stratagems to have lightning-fast Baneblades charging in CC and Skaven-like orders (so basically a free stratagem) to shoot in a CC unit.

I have to add they'd better forbid Conscripts to be affected by a Commissar, because that nerf is ridiculous, it solves none of the problems people are experiencing with them.

GW should've forbid the use of multiple different <Regiment>, <Chapter> and such in a battleforged army in Matched Play. Right now people are not playing one single <Group> for the fluff of it, they're playing the best fitting units for each <Group> rules to min/max and rape the fluff. Our tactica is full of lists with two to three <Forge-Worlds> and they're forced to do that in competitive because our army is so underpowered we're stuck to a few key units and we fill the rest with Imperium soup. How sad can this be ?

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Wonderwolf wrote:
Dunno. Flavour aside, Strategems seem to make 40K even more a 1-2 turn game than it already is.

People burn through command points in the early game, because most are best used when your army is at full potential, meaning things are more effective/efficient turn 1 and possibly turn 2, meaning those turns are even more important (or loopsided) in determining the outcome of the overall game.

I would love to see GW add some mechanics for better strategems that only work later in the game and/or mechanisms where you have more CP if you save them for a few turns or some such, to give more incentives to play/plan for beyond turn 3 or 4.

Eh this is highly dependent on the stratagem you are using. My superheavy tanks will love the Crush Them! stratagem, but untimely use will just be a massive failure (and could actually be detrimental). Similarly, using Send In The Next Wave is incredibly situational.

I'm going to try out the 3CP VotexStrike on my Deathstrike if that's not defensive play until turn 3-4 I don't know how else you could achieve it. I play with friends and we have a ton of terrain and LOS blockers and we routinely go into later rounds with the games tight.

Nogil wrote:
From Warhammer TV:

Tallarn
Infantry units can Advance and fire any weapon type except Heavy. When they do so they do not suffer the usual penalties to hit for Assault weapons.

Vehicles do not suffer the penalty to their hit rolls for moving and firing Heavy weapons. Titanic Vehicle can Advances and fire and then it treats all Heavy weapons it is equipped with as Assault weapons until the end of the turn.

Cadian
Re-roll hits of 1 in shooting phase if they didn't move in the previous movement phase. If an Infantry unit with this Doctrine is issued Take Aim! and did not move in the previous movement phase, re-roll all failed hits.

Militarum Tempestus
Get an extra shot with their guns for each 6+ to hit when the target is within half range.

Steel Legion
Infantry double their rapid fire at 18" instead of half range. Steel Legion Vehicles treat AP -1 as AP 0.

I was hoping steel legion would be great for transports, but... it looks to be the big loser of the 8 regiments.

This is still missing the rule for Cadian vehicles - unless they are also twin linked with 'Gunners, Kill on Sight!', instead of 'Take Aim'.

 Aaranis wrote:
I'm kind of glad for Imperial Guard players that they get a cool codex full of fluffy rules and powerful stratagems, but I can't help thinking it's almost provocative to release a codex like that after GW has half-pissed the AdMech codex with half of the forge-worlds being useless and so few rework/points adjustments on units that desperately need it. Meanwhile IG gets cheap stratagems to have lightning-fast Baneblades charging in CC and Skaven-like orders (so basically a free stratagem) to shoot in a CC unit.

I have to add they'd better forbid Conscripts to be affected by a Commissar, because that nerf is ridiculous, it solves none of the problems people are experiencing with them.

GW should've forbid the use of multiple different <Regiment>, <Chapter> and such in a battleforged army in Matched Play. Right now people are not playing one single <Group> for the fluff of it, they're playing the best fitting units for each <Group> rules to min/max and rape the fluff. Our tactica is full of lists with two to three <Forge-Worlds> and they're forced to do that in competitive because our army is so underpowered we're stuck to a few key units and we fill the rest with Imperium soup. How sad can this be ?

I feel like this because I feel bad for Admech and also feel bad for any future codex! I know Orks have had it ruff for the last few editions and our index is clearly showing splits now these codecies are out (it was already flawed in many way with poor units nobody would want) so I am scared GW will be like "Here!" and it's just a copy and paste of the index with nerfs only. XD If they do that I won't be buying from them ever again.

Are we going to talk about the fact that a punisher now fires 40 shots per turn?
If the point cost remains the same, or even if it sees a slight point increase, it sounds pretty insane.

Even with a small points increase (on the weapon), the basic punisher should remain well under 200pts. That's 20 hits of a S5 weapon and about 13 wounds on most units.

Then, there's the impact of tank commanders on top of that. Right now it's +35pts for BS3+ and +45pts for BS2+ with Pask.

I'm wondering how much a tank commander on a punisher will cost in the codex. Right now it's 195ts (without HB sponsons) or 211pts (with the sponsons).
But if you make it from valhalla, you get to keep your BS3+ as long as you have at least 3 wounds. Which makes it rather competitive in my eyes.

And couldn't you have a pair of valhallan tank commanders in punishers to give each other the "kill on sight" order every turn? Granted it's a bit expensive (400+pts) but if my math is right this combo delivers 60 S5 hits per turn which means 40 wounds on most infantry models (and I haven't even taken the HBs into account so you can add a few to that). You're basically wiping out two light infantry units per turn. And your opponent needs to take out at least 10 wounds off your T8 tanks to even start affecting your firepower.

I know there'll be much better things to do with the codex, but for some reason this seems like fun.

Imperial Guard buffs? It's already the strongest army in the game and it just got way better. Conscript barely got a nerf given how good this codex is.

My faith that GW can balance has been shattered. Zero hope for other factions.

Still sitting here praying that Scions and Plasma guns don't get nerfed hard enough to drag my Mechanicus down with them.

Geez! Guard are looking good up in here! I kinda hope that Death Korps will get looked at soon so they can get some of this lovin too!

They're still solid, just not as good as most of these others that I'm seeing.

I wonder if the new points changes and possible similar strategems will be included in the Genestealer Cult Codex... considering they borrow from the Guard and can take an allied detachment of them.

 Carnikang wrote:
I wonder if the new points changes and possible similar strategems will be included in the Genestealer Cult Codex... considering they borrow from the Guard and can take an allied detachment of them.

I've been wondering the same thing. I am right now assembling Genestealer Cult models. I have a 5 boxes of plastic Cadians, and every time I look at the pile of plastic I think about the new AM Codex (and GS Codex).

And... Edit. Just noticed Post 100! I mostly lurk.