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Dionysodorus wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I still think you're underestimating the order by assuming it doesn't work on units that fall back.

Usually the way this kind of interaction works is that the rule actually needs to tell you that it over-rides other restrictions, unless it must over-ride those other restrictions in order to do anything. This looks like it's just telling you that you can embark in your shooting phase, and you even get to shoot normally before you do it. Like, you'll note that "Get Back in the Fight!" doesn't just read: "The ordered unit can shoot this phase."

I actually agree with you. I also actually agree with you that it wasn't intended to let you shoot after falling back.

I also think it does anyways.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Dionysodorus wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I still think you're underestimating the order by assuming it doesn't work on units that fall back.

Usually the way this kind of interaction works is that the rule actually needs to tell you that it over-rides other restrictions, unless it must over-ride those other restrictions in order to do anything. This looks like it's just telling you that you can embark in your shooting phase, and you even get to shoot normally before you do it. Like, you'll note that "Get Back in the Fight!" doesn't just read: "The ordered unit can shoot this phase."

I actually agree with you. I also actually agree with you that it wasn't intended to let you shoot after falling back.

I also think it does anyways.

Yeah, after rereading the order, I must concede that I agree with you on this one. It looks like what you're suggesting is indeed possible.

 Zewrath wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Zewrath wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Zewrath wrote:


'Using these rules in tandem, you’ll be able to do maximum damage when disembarking, then re-embark and redeploy without losing a turn of shooting. Armageddon mechanised infantry are going to be very, very hard to pin down in the new codex.'

Sounds like this is confirmation that GW are literally incapable of reading their own rules or even understand them.

Seeing as how you Embark(and Disembark) during Movement, you would lose a Shooting phase if you Embarked without this Order.

By doing it like this, you Disembark during your Movement phase and then you can Shoot normally.
The next turn, instead of Embarking you can use this Order and fire then Embark.

Yes, see the post above, explaining I know this and why it's not actually what the article implies, nor is the actual order good as stated above.

All the article says is that using them in tandem allows you to Disembark and Embark without losing a turn of shooting.

Did you really think that it would let you ignore the rules in place about Embarking/Disembarking in the same turn?

And this post confirms Kanluwen apparently doesn't know what special rules are, or just play pretends that they don't exist!

GBITF allows you to ignore rules about falling back, Harlequins have rules that allows you to Assault after advancing, Fly has rules for shooting after falling back. It's astonishing that you can use that argument with a straight face or ignore the fact that the article make it sound like it works like a rule that literally existed in several iterations before. Top kek.

The article has a picture right above the blurb that suggests ways things work in tandem.

Once again:
Disembark during your Movement phase.
-Shoot
Embark during your next Movement phase.
-Can't shoot.

That's the normal order of operations.

For Steel Legion, it can be this:
Disembark during your Movement phase
-"Armoured Fist" Stratagem
-Shoot
Next Turn don't Embark during Movement.
-"Mount Up!" issued.
-Shoot+Embark

Amazing how one can figure these things out without having to pretend like they do not know how things work.

Your opinion then. I stated my case several time so I respectfully disagree, Kan.

Really? So now the Punisher Russ can shoot 40 times with just it's turret? Is that REALLY necessary?

 nintura wrote:
Really? So now the Punisher Russ can shoot 40 times with just it's turret? Is that REALLY necessary?

I'm not sure, on the one hand it finally feels like a brutal vulcan minigun tank should. But how does it work in game? It's just another example of how things in the real world don't always translate to a game.

I will say these rules really make me want to rebuild my guard, but still the only thing stopping me from giving money to GW is that there is still no plastic regimental infantry. I would like to have Mordians, but I don't want them bad enough to go looking for those old metal ugos.

I'm not too impressed with the Steel Legion, but those relics are pretty sweet.

The Ghost of CP Past is an easy use of the buy-a-relic stratagem even if you don't want to have a Guard warlord. Pays for itself pretty quickly.

The power sword upgrade is perfectly decent. Better than the Space Marine version (of course you tend to get fewer attacks).

The deep strike dagger is actually really interesting, RAW (I'm pretty sure this is getting faq'd). You can deep strike any INFANTRY unit in your army, but if the bearer of the relic has a <REGIMENT> keyword, then the unit you deep strike must have the same one. But if the bearer doesn't have a <REGIMENT> keyword, it's completely unrestricted. So you hand this to a Commissar and then you deep strike a unit of Custodes.

 Togusa wrote:

 nintura wrote:
Really? So now the Punisher Russ can shoot 40 times with just it's turret? Is that REALLY necessary?

I'm not sure, on the one hand it finally feels like a brutal vulcan minigun tank should. But how does it work in game? It's just another example of how things in the real world don't always translate to a game.

I will say these rules really make me want to rebuild my guard, but still the only thing stopping me from giving money to GW is that there is still no plastic regimental infantry. I would like to have Mordians, but I don't want them bad enough to go looking for those old metal ugos.

Victoria minis legs and heads then?

the_scotsman wrote:

 Togusa wrote:

 nintura wrote:
Really? So now the Punisher Russ can shoot 40 times with just it's turret? Is that REALLY necessary?

I'm not sure, on the one hand it finally feels like a brutal vulcan minigun tank should. But how does it work in game? It's just another example of how things in the real world don't always translate to a game.

I will say these rules really make me want to rebuild my guard, but still the only thing stopping me from giving money to GW is that there is still no plastic regimental infantry. I would like to have Mordians, but I don't want them bad enough to go looking for those old metal ugos.

Victoria minis legs and heads then?

Full disclosure:

I'm one of those jackasses who really want an official product. I'm not a very good modeler, I don't like working with Resin. I actually like to move to monopose because of the fact i have a deficiency in building.

 Zewrath wrote:

I share the same position as Zewrath. Mount Up seems like an incredibly weak order. If you are playing an opponent & he knows you are playing Steel Legion, his highest priority is going to be targeting any vets exiting a chimera. They will not survive the one round of shooting they are exposed against any competent player.

 Commissar Benny wrote:

 Zewrath wrote:

I share the same position as Zewrath. Mount Up seems like an incredibly weak order. If you are playing an opponent & he knows you are playing Steel Legion, his highest priority is going to be targeting any vets exiting a chimera. They will not survive the one round of shooting they are exposed against any competent player.

And what happens when we're talking about, say, multiple infantry squads exiting multiple Chimeras or Stormlords even?

There's only so much that you're going to be able to deal with when this is being used en masse.

 Stus67 wrote:
Steel Legion to me appears to be one of the weakest Regiments. Rapid Firing at 18" is pretty nice, but their vehicle rule is almost entirely useless, and their special order is pretty lackluster. The stratagem is alright I guess if you can actually find a scenario where it works.

Oh please. The Cadians are "reroll 1s To Hit if they stay still, reroll all To Hits if given a specific Order"--and we haven't seen their Order yet.

That, I feel, is the real dud. It would have been better as +1 to their Shooting Attacks(including/excluding Overwatch as the case may be) if they stay still.

Steel Legion to me appears to be one of the weakest Regiments. Rapid Firing at 18" is pretty nice, but their vehicle rule is almost entirely useless, and their special order is pretty lackluster. The stratagem is alright I guess if you can actually find a scenario where it works.

 Commissar Benny wrote:

 Zewrath wrote:

I share the same position as Zewrath. Mount Up seems like an incredibly weak order. If you are playing an opponent & he knows you are playing Steel Legion, his highest priority is going to be targeting any vets exiting a chimera. They will not survive the one round of shooting they are exposed against any competent player.

This plus the loss of fire points in this edition is why vets are totally useless outside airdrops from a valkyrie, at which point your better off with a trio of command squads anyway. Hopefully vets see a return to their specialist rules so they can scout, demo or up armor otherwise they are totally outclassed by basic infantry or storm troopers outside of fluffy list building.

Autocannons are probably the worst (least efficient, fewest situations where it is appropriate) heavy weapon in the game. I've yet to use one or play against a single one in 8th ediditon. It's a good thing chimeras now have a solid way to defend against them.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Commissar Benny wrote:

 Zewrath wrote:

I share the same position as Zewrath. Mount Up seems like an incredibly weak order. If you are playing an opponent & he knows you are playing Steel Legion, his highest priority is going to be targeting any vets exiting a chimera. They will not survive the one round of shooting they are exposed against any competent player.

And what happens when we're talking about, say, multiple infantry squads exiting multiple Chimeras or Stormlords even?

There's only so much that you're going to be able to deal with when this is being used en masse.

 Stus67 wrote:
Steel Legion to me appears to be one of the weakest Regiments. Rapid Firing at 18" is pretty nice, but their vehicle rule is almost entirely useless, and their special order is pretty lackluster. The stratagem is alright I guess if you can actually find a scenario where it works.

Oh please. The Cadians are "reroll 1s To Hit if they stay still, reroll all To Hits if given a specific Order"--and we haven't seen their Order yet.

That, I feel, is the real dud. It would have been better as +1 to their Shooting Attacks(including/excluding Overwatch as the case may be) if they stay still.

LMAO posts like this should tell everyone on here never to take any tactical advice of your seriously.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

jaxor1983 wrote:
Autocannons are probably the worst (least efficient, fewest situations where it is appropriate) heavy weapon in the game. I've yet to use one or play against a single one in 8th ediditon. It's a good thing chimeras now have a solid way to defend against them.

Idk I see quite a few, the predator autocanon seems to be the defacto way to run the now ubiquitous predator.

 Zewrath wrote:
Doubt all you want. That's still embarrassing. If they didn't have such a long standing history of being incompetent at reading rules, I actually accuse this commercial article of gross deception and false advertising.

You clearly have a sharp mind for legal matters. Get a lawyer and let us know how it turns out.

 Red Corsair wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Commissar Benny wrote:

 Zewrath wrote:

I share the same position as Zewrath. Mount Up seems like an incredibly weak order. If you are playing an opponent & he knows you are playing Steel Legion, his highest priority is going to be targeting any vets exiting a chimera. They will not survive the one round of shooting they are exposed against any competent player.

And what happens when we're talking about, say, multiple infantry squads exiting multiple Chimeras or Stormlords even?

There's only so much that you're going to be able to deal with when this is being used en masse.

 Stus67 wrote:
Steel Legion to me appears to be one of the weakest Regiments. Rapid Firing at 18" is pretty nice, but their vehicle rule is almost entirely useless, and their special order is pretty lackluster. The stratagem is alright I guess if you can actually find a scenario where it works.

Oh please. The Cadians are "reroll 1s To Hit if they stay still, reroll all To Hits if given a specific Order"--and we haven't seen their Order yet.

That, I feel, is the real dud. It would have been better as +1 to their Shooting Attacks(including/excluding Overwatch as the case may be) if they stay still.

LMAO posts like this should tell everyone on here never to take any tactical advice of your seriously.

Yeah, because I'm the idiot for failing to see how great "rerolling 1s to Hit if you stay still and rerolling all To Hits if granted a specific Order"(which can't be given to tanks and forbids you from being granted any additional Orders) is compared to being able to Rapid Fire any Rapid Fire weapon at up to 18" while bumping AP-1 to AP0...

If you can't see why it's a big deal that to take full advantage of a Regimental Doctrine mandates you use a specific Order? I can't help you with that.

jaxor1983 wrote:
Autocannons are probably the worst (least efficient, fewest situations where it is appropriate) heavy weapon in the game. I've yet to use one or play against a single one in 8th ediditon. It's a good thing chimeras now have a solid way to defend against them.

Idk I see quite a few, the predator autocanon seems to be the defacto way to run the now ubiquitous predator.

Thanks for proving my point.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Zewrath wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Zewrath wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Zewrath wrote:


'Using these rules in tandem, you’ll be able to do maximum damage when disembarking, then re-embark and redeploy without losing a turn of shooting. Armageddon mechanised infantry are going to be very, very hard to pin down in the new codex.'

Sounds like this is confirmation that GW are literally incapable of reading their own rules or even understand them.

Seeing as how you Embark(and Disembark) during Movement, you would lose a Shooting phase if you Embarked without this Order.

By doing it like this, you Disembark during your Movement phase and then you can Shoot normally.
The next turn, instead of Embarking you can use this Order and fire then Embark.

Yes, see the post above, explaining I know this and why it's not actually what the article implies, nor is the actual order good as stated above.

All the article says is that using them in tandem allows you to Disembark and Embark without losing a turn of shooting.

Did you really think that it would let you ignore the rules in place about Embarking/Disembarking in the same turn?

And this post confirms Kanluwen apparently doesn't know what special rules are, or just play pretends that they don't exist!

GBITF allows you to ignore rules about falling back, Harlequins have rules that allows you to Assault after advancing, Fly has rules for shooting after falling back. It's astonishing that you can use that argument with a straight face or ignore the fact that the article make it sound like it works like a rule that literally existed in several iterations before. Top kek.

The article has a picture right above the blurb that suggests ways things work in tandem.

Once again:
Disembark during your Movement phase.
-Shoot
Embark during your next Movement phase.
-Can't shoot.

That's the normal order of operations.

For Steel Legion, it can be this:
Disembark during your Movement phase
-"Armoured Fist" Stratagem
-Shoot
Next Turn don't Embark during Movement.
-"Mount Up!" issued.
-Shoot+Embark

Amazing how one can figure these things out without having to pretend like they do not know how things work.

The wording of the article implies that you get to disembark, shoot, then reembark in a single turn. It's clear the rules shown don't allow that.

But after reading the rules then reading the article I had to go back and reread The two agien because of how conflicting it read. The wording of the article part is fairly confusing at best, wrong at worst.

I don't see how the rule allows a unit to redeploy without losing a turn of shooting.

Turn 1: Disembark, Shoot
Turn 2: Shoot, Embark
Turn 3: Transport moves (redeploy), no Shoot

Normal Unit:

Turn 1: Disembark, Shoot
Turn 2: Embark, move
Turn 3: Disembark, Shoot

Both ways gets 2 out 3 turns for shooting, but the Steel Legion way actually prevents redeploying.

I think it's less about movement and more about spending half your time in a vehicle while still shooting every turn. Which is useful I guess? I'm not really sure what other purpose the order could have?

xmbk wrote:
I don't see how the rule allows a unit to redeploy without losing a turn of shooting.

Turn 1: Disembark, Shoot
Turn 2: Shoot, Embark
Turn 3: Transport moves (redeploy), no Shoot

Normal Unit:

Turn 1: Disembark, Shoot
Turn 2: Embark, move
Turn 3: Disembark, Shoot

Both ways gets 2 out 3 turns for shooting, but the Steel Legion way actually prevents redeploying.

Edit I read what you posted wrong.

xmbk wrote:
I don't see how the rule allows a unit to redeploy without losing a turn of shooting.

Turn 1: Disembark, Shoot
Turn 2: Shoot, Embark
Turn 3: Transport moves (redeploy), no Shoot

Normal Unit:

Turn 1: Disembark, Shoot
Turn 2: Embark, move
Turn 3: Disembark, Shoot

Both ways gets 2 out 3 turns for shooting, but the Steel Legion way actually prevents redeploying.

Like This:
Turn 1: Disembark, Move, Shoot
Turn 2: Move Transport, Move Squad, Shoot, Embark
Turn 3: You're now 12" ahead of where you were before, have shot twice, and are inside your transport.

And losing a turn of shooting.

xmbk wrote:
And losing a turn of shooting.

Well hopefully your target is destroyed by now, and you're either moving on to the next one, or redeploying from another side of the tank. There's always the lasgun arrays too, so you're not completely ineffective when moving.

xmbk wrote:
And losing a turn of shooting.

Turn 1: Disembark, Shoot
Turn 2: Shoot, Embark
Turn 3: Transport moves (redeploy), no Shoot
Turn 4: Disembark, Shoot
Turn 5: Shoot, Embark
Turn 6: Transport moves (redeploy), no Shoot

Normal Unit:

Turn 1: Disembark, Shoot
Turn 2: Embark, move
Turn 3: Disembark, Shoot
Turn 4: Embark, move
Turn 5: Disembark, Shoot
Turn 6: Embark, move

Or, more realistic:

Turn 1: Move
Turn 2: Disembark, Shoot
Turn 3: Shoot, Embark
Turn 4: Transport moves (redeploy), no Shoot
Turn 5: Disembark, Shoot
Turn 6: Shoot, (Embark)

Normal unit:

Turn 1: Move
Turn 2: Disembark, Shoot
Turn 3: Embark, move
Turn 4: Disembark, Shoot
Turn 5: Embark, move
Turn 6: Disembark, Shoot

I think the idea is either so you can weather the storm, as guardsmen don't like AP -1 weapons like a heavy bolter being fired at them, while their Chimera just plain doesn't care, or so you can front load your damage and mount up for the next turn early and be safe from any reprisals. With Steel Legion's added rapid fire range, you can dismount farther away, get 2 turns of rapid fire shots against all but the fastest foes, and remount to blunt a reprisal strike.

Will it always be the best choice of orders? Probably not, but then if it was always the best choice in any situation, we'd have a problem.

Plus, we don't have all of the codex as a known yet. If Chimera's get a mild buff - either a points decrease or regaining its command vehicle rule, things might be looking a bit better for Steel Legion.

 Galas wrote:
Yeah, I suppose one can look at it that way.

It's not looking at it any way. They explicitly say that in the article.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Galas wrote:
Yeah, I suppose one can look at it that way.

It's not looking at it any way. They explicitly say that in the article.

Looking at all this discussion I dont knonw anylonger if what they said is right or not.

Any more battle reports out from which we could glean costs of the plasma gun or Tempestus Scion?