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as a mechanicus player it's hard not to be salty at this release. Can someone confirm the point cost on the engineseer?

gungo wrote:15pt plasma guns on 3+ bs models.... that should cut down spam

Actually i think winters SEO mixed up plasma cannons and plasma guns.
At 3:10 he says "plasma gun was 15 points ..." the plasma gun was never 15 points it´s the plasma cannon that was 15 points.
Then he says it´s 13pts on a 3+ and 7pts on a 4+ model. If veterans, which can´t DS, also have to pay 13pts they are even more dead as they are now.
If 13pts is only for tempestus that would at least adress only DS-units. Either 13pts is the premium space marine tag.

At least they fixed most other units in the codex, so we could give other ways a go.

Could someone please confirm the new points cost for plasma ?

B.b.but most balanced edition ever, most playtested edition ever?

So who on the playtest crew plays guard?

Our local guard player is conflicted o the one hand he can curb stomp in the tournaments but he will never get another game outside the tournaments again.

Mostly the changes to units don't seem crazy to me. Obviously Russes needed a lot of help. I've not run into many of the super-heavies but I can believe that they needed something, though they got a huge buff so I'm a little worried. Basilisks were good but overshadowed by Manticores.

Meanwhile Scion plasma drops got nerfed significantly. HWTs went up to 6, which means that mortar squads are probably still a no-brainer slot filler with really efficient firepower, but it's clearly a move in the right direction. Probably some other things should have seen bigger/any nerfs, such as Conscripts, Primaris Psykers, and Astropaths.

My big worries here are the infantry and special rules. Guard infantry was already really good and it just got a lot better. Granted, actually relatively few of the doctrines straightforwardly make gunline infantry more shooty or more durable -- mostly they help with playstyles that weren't optimal before -- but there are a lot of nice buffs here. And then a lot of the doctrines are huge for already-strong armies involving lots of long-range artillery, though really the doctrines are generally less impressive than Chapter Tactics and Legion Traits.

And everything except the doctrines and unit changes seems pretty crazy. You can take the (excellent) Ultramarines warlord trait on any Guard warlord. There's a relic that also gives you extra CP when your opponent uses a stratagem. Another lets an officer issue a second order to the same unit on a 4+. There are several stratagems worth using every turn, including one that gives Guard a huge advantage over Chaos armies in particular.

There's just very little here that looks bad, and a lot of things that look very strong. It won't be at all surprising if combinations of these turn out to be way too good.

SeanDrake wrote:
B.b.but most balanced edition ever, most playtested edition ever?

So who on the playtest crew plays guard?

Our local guard player is conflicted o the one hand he can curb stomp in the tournaments but he will never get another game outside the tournaments again.

If that's what his supposed friends are like, he's better off not playing. What a bunch of drama queens.

SeanDrake wrote:
B.b.but most balanced edition ever, most playtested edition ever?

So who on the playtest crew plays guard?

Our local guard player is conflicted o the one hand he can curb stomp in the tournaments but he will never get another game outside the tournaments again.

Well, I believe the ASSUMPTION was, that playtesting by ITC/Frontline Gaming & Co. would make it more balanced, as they claimed for decades they could do better. Apparently they're finding it's not as easy as they assumed pre-8th Edition with post-publication hindsight watching in from the outside.

In some ways, that might be the problem. From the hardcore tournament perspective, AM tanks might've seemed in need of some upgrades compared to the Guilliman parking lots or Magnus-Daemon lists they ran up against. But those guys probably never even bothered to test it against a footslogging Khorne Daemons list, an average non-Commander-Spam Tau list or something along those lines.

Wonderwolf wrote:

SeanDrake wrote:
B.b.but most balanced edition ever, most playtested edition ever?

So who on the playtest crew plays guard?

Our local guard player is conflicted o the one hand he can curb stomp in the tournaments but he will never get another game outside the tournaments again.

Well, I believe the ASSUMPTION was, that playtesting by ITC/Frontline Gaming & Co. would make it more balanced, as they claimed for decades they could do better. Apparently they're finding it's not as easy as they assumed pre-8th Edition with post-publication hindsight watching in from the outside.

The indexes were not too bad, and with an update at Christmas given known results could have become even more balanced.
Unfortunately this is an Eldar Release. Take the best codex by a considerable distance (soups have been better - but that is another issue) give it a couple of token nerfs and then hand out a host of buffs.
Its just stupid. I had thought GW were looking at the game as a game again but that seems to have been missed this time.

When you want a powerful codex so your army isn't worthless, but you also don't want to be seen as That Guy for playing Imperial Guard.

I'm seeing two potential FAQ situations in the video review for Militarum Tempestus.

1) The Medi-Pack and Voxcaster is once again swapping the Hotshot Lasgun for a Hotshot Laspistol. They FAQ this in 7th IG/MT Codexes and the 8th Index to allow you to keep the Hotshot Lasgun. Have they seriously repeated this mistake for a fourth time?

2) Militarum Tempestus states that you only get their doctrine if all units in the detachment are MT units (it doesn't mention just regiment keywords). Immediately below it, the Advisors/Auxiliaries sections states those units don't prevent the rest of the detachment from gaining regiment doctrines. So which of these contradicting rules takes priority over the other as if you includes Advisors/Auxiliaries you no longer have all MT units in your detachment?

 Rikev wrote:

2) Militarum Tempestus states that you only get their doctrine if all units in the detachment are MT units (it doesn't mention just regiment keywords). Immediately below it, the Advisors/Auxiliaries sections states those units don't prevent the rest of the detachment from gaining regiment doctrines. So which of these contradicting rules takes priority over the other as if you includes Advisors/Auxiliaries you no longer have all MT units in your detachment?

I don't think there's a contradiction here. The regular regiment rules also say every unit has to be from the same regiment, with a parenthetical aside giving you a heads up about the later "Advisors and Auxilla" rules. I don't see that this aside is itself doing much, rules-wise; obviously "Advisors and Auxilla" would still work without it. And so surely it also works with the Militarum Tempestus.

What the MT rules are saying is that you can put Scions in a Cadian detachment and the Cadians still get their doctrine, but the Scions don't. You only get the Scion doctrine if they're the only regiment in the detachment. Whether it's a Cadian or a Scion detachment, you can include Commissars and the like without giving up your doctrine.

Dionysodorus wrote:

 Rikev wrote:

2) Militarum Tempestus states that you only get their doctrine if all units in the detachment are MT units (it doesn't mention just regiment keywords). Immediately below it, the Advisors/Auxiliaries sections states those units don't prevent the rest of the detachment from gaining regiment doctrines. So which of these contradicting rules takes priority over the other as if you includes Advisors/Auxiliaries you no longer have all MT units in your detachment?

I don't think there's a contradiction here. The regular regiment rules also say every unit has to be from the same regiment, with a parenthetical aside giving you a heads up about the later "Advisors and Auxilla" rules. I don't see that this aside is itself doing much, rules-wise; obviously "Advisors and Auxilla" would still work without it. And so surely it also works with the Militarum Tempestus.

What the MT rules are saying is that you can put Scions in a Cadian detachment and the Cadians still get their doctrine, but the Scions don't. You only get the Scion doctrine if they're the only regiment in the detachment. Whether it's a Cadian or a Scion detachment, you can include Commissars and the like without giving up your doctrine.

Sweet. That means I can start planning some conversions and units to add more diversity to my MT force. Thanks.

From the way so many people are crying, you'd think everything in the Index was broken... as opposed to it just being Conscripts and plasma Scions (and plasma is good on everything this edition anyway). And THAT's only so obnoxiously broken because of Imperial Soup lists with Gulliman, but you don't see Space Marine players crying for a nerf to him.

Was anyone able to get a better look at those plasma gun costs? The video said 13 points, another post in the AM tactics thread says 15 points (for BS3+).

These books have been printed about six months ago (hardcover), playtesting feedback afterwards will be released with Chapter Approved in December (including Apocalypse rules etc). I think this is a reasonable way to fix issues with army rules and the new AM book is not worth a drama. There are still about 15 books to come out, and we should see how strong these are to have the full picture. Everything can quite easily be changed to be better with future Chapter Approved releases.

sadhvikv wrote:
Was anyone able to get a better look at those plasma gun costs? The video said 13 points, another post in the AM tactics thread says 15 points (for BS3+).

Marines only pay 13. Scions paying 15 would be idiotic. 13 is fair.

sadhvikv wrote:
Was anyone able to get a better look at those plasma gun costs? The video said 13 points, another post in the AM tactics thread says 15 points (for BS3+).

Sorry I said it was 15 becuase in the video he said it was 15 and then said it was 13 for veterans and 7 for everything else. So either he misspoke and said it was 15 when it wasn't or it's only 15 for scions. Either way we will find out soon.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 argonak wrote:

sadhvikv wrote:
Was anyone able to get a better look at those plasma gun costs? The video said 13 points, another post in the AM tactics thread says 15 points (for BS3+).

Marines only pay 13. Scions paying 15 would be idiotic. 13 is fair.

marines don't deepstrike which is why scions are better then marines w plasmaguns. However I think the video just misspoke and it's likely 13 and 7.

Wonderwolf wrote:

SeanDrake wrote:
B.b.but most balanced edition ever, most playtested edition ever?

So who on the playtest crew plays guard?

Our local guard player is conflicted o the one hand he can curb stomp in the tournaments but he will never get another game outside the tournaments again.

Well, I believe the ASSUMPTION was, that playtesting by ITC/Frontline Gaming & Co. would make it more balanced, as they claimed for decades they could do better. Apparently they're finding it's not as easy as they assumed pre-8th Edition with post-publication hindsight watching in from the outside.

In some ways, that might be the problem. From the hardcore tournament perspective, AM tanks might've seemed in need of some upgrades compared to the Guilliman parking lots or Magnus-Daemon lists they ran up against. But those guys probably never even bothered to test it against a footslogging Khorne Daemons list, an average non-Commander-Spam Tau list or something along those lines.

It doesn't help that Reece is super biased against Tau it's insane and a meme in the community at this point. Imagine who else on the "professional" balancing team at frontline or the other sites who helped messed up balance for others. 8th edition is turning into a bigger sham than 7th.

 Gamgee wrote:

Wonderwolf wrote:

SeanDrake wrote:
B.b.but most balanced edition ever, most playtested edition ever?

So who on the playtest crew plays guard?

Our local guard player is conflicted o the one hand he can curb stomp in the tournaments but he will never get another game outside the tournaments again.

Well, I believe the ASSUMPTION was, that playtesting by ITC/Frontline Gaming & Co. would make it more balanced, as they claimed for decades they could do better. Apparently they're finding it's not as easy as they assumed pre-8th Edition with post-publication hindsight watching in from the outside.

In some ways, that might be the problem. From the hardcore tournament perspective, AM tanks might've seemed in need of some upgrades compared to the Guilliman parking lots or Magnus-Daemon lists they ran up against. But those guys probably never even bothered to test it against a footslogging Khorne Daemons list, an average non-Commander-Spam Tau list or something along those lines.

It doesn't help that Reece is super biased against Tau it's insane and a meme in the community at this point. Imagine who else on the "professional" balancing team at frontline or the other sites who helped messed up balance for others. 8th edition is turning into a bigger sham than 7th.

and Frankie is very pro tau and flg wasn't the only teams playtesting. They are just the most visible.

He is kinda... but he also complained about tons of Tau stuff though and thought lots was way too strong. The obvious stuff like riptide wing and storm surge sure. But I've also seen him complain about how strong the Tau were in general without them iirc. We all know how that turned out to not be true.

gungo wrote:

sadhvikv wrote:
Was anyone able to get a better look at those plasma gun costs? The video said 13 points, another post in the AM tactics thread says 15 points (for BS3+).

Sorry I said it was 15 becuase in the video he said it was 15 and then said it was 13 for veterans and 7 for everything else. So either he misspoke and said it was 15 when it wasn't or it's only 15 for scions. Either way we will find out soon.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 argonak wrote:

sadhvikv wrote:
Was anyone able to get a better look at those plasma gun costs? The video said 13 points, another post in the AM tactics thread says 15 points (for BS3+).

Marines only pay 13. Scions paying 15 would be idiotic. 13 is fair.

marines don't deepstrike which is why scions are better then marines w plasmaguns. However I think the video just misspoke and it's likely 13 and 7.

Plenty of marines do deepstrike, they've got transports up the wazoo, and scions are already paying for their ability to deepstrike. They cost 3 points more than veterans, and for that they get +1 armor save and deep strike.

I was personally hoping that the grav chutes would be separated (like on reivers) as an upgrade so we didn't have to take the things on every scion unit. Having deep strike standard is annoying when I have all these shiny taurox primes. Nobody ever rides in the damn things. Let me get a discount to ride in my truck and I would.

 Arbitrator wrote:
From the way so many people are crying, you'd think everything in the Index was broken... as opposed to it just being Conscripts and plasma Scions (and plasma is good on everything this edition anyway). And THAT's only so obnoxiously broken because of Imperial Soup lists with Gulliman, but you don't see Space Marine players crying for a nerf to him.

Uh... Yeah you do. No idea where that meme comes from; other than Guard units, Guilliman easily sees the most complaints from players, with Aetaos'rau'keres and Magnus following a reasonable distance behind.

 Gamgee wrote:
He is kinda... but he also complained about tons of Tau stuff though and thought lots was way too strong. The obvious stuff like riptide wing and storm surge sure. But I've also seen him complain about how strong the Tau were in general without them iirc. We all know how that turned out to not be true.

that's not true commander spam is top tier. And you conveniently ignored how Reece was like orks are the best army and overpowered in all his 8th ed videos and than the truth is they suck and are mid tier at best.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 argonak wrote:

gungo wrote:

sadhvikv wrote:
Was anyone able to get a better look at those plasma gun costs? The video said 13 points, another post in the AM tactics thread says 15 points (for BS3+).

Sorry I said it was 15 becuase in the video he said it was 15 and then said it was 13 for veterans and 7 for everything else. So either he misspoke and said it was 15 when it wasn't or it's only 15 for scions. Either way we will find out soon.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 argonak wrote:

sadhvikv wrote:
Was anyone able to get a better look at those plasma gun costs? The video said 13 points, another post in the AM tactics thread says 15 points (for BS3+).

Marines only pay 13. Scions paying 15 would be idiotic. 13 is fair.

marines don't deepstrike which is why scions are better then marines w plasmaguns. However I think the video just misspoke and it's likely 13 and 7.

Plenty of marines do deepstrike, they've got transports up the wazoo, and scions are already paying for their ability to deepstrike. They cost 3 points more than veterans, and for that they get +1 armor save and deep strike.

I was personally hoping that the grav chutes would be separated (like on reivers) as an upgrade so we didn't have to take the things on every scion unit. Having deep strike standard is annoying when I have all these shiny taurox primes. Nobody ever rides in the damn things. Let me get a discount to ride in my truck and I would.

marines that deepstrike cost significantly more than scions and those transports are still grossly overpriced hence why you don't see drop pods at all any more. In fact you keep seein scions in marine lists which you continue to ignore. Scions are the best plasma gun unit by far it's not even debateable as it's just spammed in tournaments. The fact thier doctrine helps plasmaguns more just makes scion command squads better Then before. And the fact that they are currently making different points for weapons per unit shows that are cognizant of this fact.

 Arbitrator wrote:
From the way so many people are crying, you'd think everything in the Index was broken... as opposed to it just being Conscripts and plasma Scions (and plasma is good on everything this edition anyway). And THAT's only so obnoxiously broken because of Imperial Soup lists with Gulliman, but you don't see Space Marine players crying for a nerf to him.

Let's just clarify two things

1. Those were not the only good things in the guard index. Those were just the two so broken even guard players had to admit it. I can name a dozen things which outperformed almost every other equivalent unit in other armies

2. Conscripts get used in every soup list. With or without RG. Yes, you can build a competitive imperial soup army that competes in tournaments without RG. You can't without conscripts. That's the difference.

I think it is less about this or that being overpowered in the Index and more about now seemingly doubling down on things that are too good.

There is stuff in the index that is too good for its point compared to other options. Guilliman, Conscripts, Magnus, Tau Commanders, etc.., being frequently cited examples. Some things are also too weak and overcosted.

But for the most part, it was "ok" in the sense that people gave GW a pass for these for two reasons:

1. - Doing literally hundreds of new units for a new core game system, no matter the amount of playtesting, things were gonna slip through. It was inevitable.
2. - GW (or its playtesters) seemed to be doing a reasonable job at addressing them. There were a few fixes with Tzeentch daemons, etc.. The Chapter Approved is on the horizon. Guilliman could've maybe gotten a points hike in the Codex, but given how closely it followed the Indexes and the turnaround on printed books from China, there may not have been time to get that in.

The AM Codex is a bit heartbreaking and invites comparisons to 7th Ed. Craftworld Eldar as it doubles down on strengthening an army largely considered pretty good already.

Whether conscripts were "as broken" as Guilliman or Tau Commanders or just in the B-tier of things that are arguably too good is irrelevant. Far more devastating is the realization that ITC/Frontline Gaming playtesters evidently don't have a better grasp on balance than 5th-Edition-late-Friday-afternoon-Mat-Ward-having-a-laugh and the hope of "things will improve in time as things become more balanced in 8th" just kina died.

Do people consider guard to be really good simply because of Conscripts and Scions? Because that's literally the only thing anybody ever ran, and usually it came with an Imperial rowboat soup.

Now almost everything in this codex is worth messing with and taking. I know at my local area it's going to be really hard to find two guard players that play the exact same list now. That's what I'm hyped for.

Dissapointed that IG will now be the new cheese as I would have rather just seen the tanks buffs along with a bone to the vets + a ML buff.

Also really dissapointed in the CE codex with its "new art"

gendoikari87 wrote:
as a mechanicus player it's hard not to be salty at this release. Can someone confirm the point cost on the engineseer?

Yea. Its obvious they can make a lot of units good, and have faction abilities that make a lot of factions/playstles useful.

Admech got shafted hard with basically Codex Cawl/Robots. The small amount of options is pretty bad.

As for the superheavy worry, I don't get why people care.

Any ITC or major tourney capped power level of units to 30 I believe. So you cant take baneblades/shadowswords etc

If you fight it, its going to be in a regular casual game.

 argonak wrote:

SeanDrake wrote:
B.b.but most balanced edition ever, most playtested edition ever?

So who on the playtest crew plays guard?

Our local guard player is conflicted o the one hand he can curb stomp in the tournaments but he will never get another game outside the tournaments again.

If that's what his supposed friends are like, he's better off not playing. What a bunch of drama queens.

Completely agree. This is a game. Get over it. Played guard since 5th I'm glad they're finally great!

If you're going to spam super heavies, conscripts and mortars then go ahead and be that guy. I will refuse to play it unless it's in a tourney. But for someone as I who primarily plays to the cadian theme of a bunch of infantry squads on foot running across the board supported by leman russes I'm finally happy my army is solid and can stand up to others.

If Plasma Guns really are 13pts on Scions that should go a way to adjusting their balance, particularly on the Command squads; paired with the way Regiment doctrines work mean other options are attractive enough to compete with them (since they don't share and correct me if I'm wrong only benefit from their own if they're in their own detachment?)

SHV buffs seem modest; most of them were relatively underpowered and not very competitive.

The main problem with IG are Conscripts; even Scion spam isn't at the same level, and with the PG changes should be toned into line. We'll have to see how the meta shifts considering how light the Conscript changes are. Disappointed they didn't focus on their synergy with morale - discussed ad nauseam but I'd have pushed to make them a non-FOC choice (w/one per Infantry Squad) and give them at least the 'Get back in the fight you rabble!' Special rule I like to flagellate.

Quite a few buffs/adjustments elsewhere, but largely to units that weren't very effective or efficient for their role; you hardly ever saw Devil Dogs but they might be fieldable again, for example. Basilisk buff seems intended to make it a more attractive option to the Manticore (and it's really only Earthshaker Carriage Batteries from the FW Index that people were usually spamming at high-tier competitive play).

Feel like if they properly nerfed Conscripts (or notionally, just for debate, removed them) the anger wouldn't be quite as strong. As it is, internally IG are probably decently balanced but the moment you can Soup your army up you shed quite a bit of that balance work. Still, with Regimental/Chapter/Legion/Forgeworld tactics you'll likely see a modest disincentive to take the 'Imperial' keyword detachments we see; if GW can add more restrictions to building Soup lists on top of that (like a 20% pt restriction, which I think someone mentioned is how AoS handles it?) we might have a more balanced meta. Personally, outside of 'niche' armies that in the lore usually fielded attachments/supporting units (or were themselves attachments/supporting units) like GK, the Inquisition, SoB I'd rather see the death of 'Soup' lists entirely. Particularly in the Imperium's case, no matter how good the internal balance of a Codex can be the moment you can mix-match detachments to shore up weaknesses and min-max your list to an extreme level, Soup lists will always be the most broken aspect of the game.