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Most of these issues aren't that big a deal for me since I play powerlevel.

Since plasma increased in points, did powerlevel shift for scions or veterans?

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
Most of these issues aren't that big a deal for me since I play powerlevel.

Since plasma increased in points, did powerlevel shift for scions or veterans?

Let's see veterans are still elites and not obj secured like scions.
Veterans still need a transport instead of air dropping 9in away in rapid fire range like scions
And plasma guns are still increased for veterans....
Nope vets still suck....
Oh and plasmaguns also get a free shot on a 6+ in a scions hands.

Oh and now people are also talking about since MT are an infantry regiment. Using defense search lights to give them +1 to hit. Then using thier order instead for reroll to wound and benefiting from a roll of 5+ for a free shot.... nope MT are still significantly better then veterans.

Christ there is a ton of whining in here. So the current stuff didn't actually get better. The new abilities are offset by the big 3 (mortars, scions, and conscripts) nerfs. Almost 50% increase in drop plas command squads and a 25% bump for the troop variant. Conscripts getting orders 50% of the time. And mortars going up just under 25% per model is solid. Oddly taurox got a tiny buff but i expect thatll be fixed with the release of chapter approved. Since that actually is just getting ready for the printers.

All that's happening is other stuff is viable now. Leman Russ can be used. Super heavies the same. Essentially alternate actual ig armies may be usable.

Imperial soup won't change and got slightly worse. So why the complaining? Overall csm got a way bigger bump from their book and chaos soup is plain ugly nowadays. Overall I'd hold off worrying about it until after chapter approved. I think essentially up its release nothi by before now had anything but the most remedial of adjustments and even the are only for things that werent good not that were already good.

I'm glad because all the Imperial Guard players of my group use lists that for now where pretty crappy (A Catachan army with veterans and infantry squads with flamers, hellhounds and sentinels with heavy flamers, a Cadian army with Leman Russ spam and one or two baneblades, etc... ) but now will be actually competitive. And they will stop feeling like stupid people for not spamming conscripts and scions with plasma.
The funny thing is that of all of us, I'm the one that uses more Tempestus Scions. And I don't even play Imperial Guard But in 30 scions ( 4x5 squads and two command squads + 2 Tempestus Lords) I only have 4 plasma, 2 in one comand squad and two in one Scion squad.

So much salt in here for no reason. Oh boo-hoo Guard now have more viable units than just conscript and scion spam. Things that were almost completely not worth taking are going to show up all over the place now whaaaa.

 Colonel Cross wrote:
Yeah they discuss a bunch of stuff, mostly at the beginning and end.

Other than the deathstrike, the colonel created quite a solid list, which isn't WAAC and yet wasn't low tier either, and played it exceptionally well. And it still was incredibly close. Death Guard are just THAT tough to kill.

So, out of curiosity, were you banking on no one bothering to watch it or did you actually think it was a close game? It only looked close due to absurdly good luck with objectives giving the DG maelstrom points even though they'd effectively lost by the end of turn two. By the end of turn one the DG had barley touched the IG army and had lost a fourth of their forces, by the end of turn two they'd still made no lasting damage and had barely gotten through the chaff with half their army gone. Also they aren't tough at all, at least nothing he was running was, do I need to point out PM are easier to kill for their points than normal guard? They are. They aren't even tougher than normal CSM for cost.

Also, no, he did not play it well. At all. He was clearly holding back and said as much in the video at one point. If you want an actual break down of what he did wrong I'll give it, but c'mon he was trying not to totally stomp the guy and they both knew it.

Seriously, I won't say this should be used as a gauge for how strong either army is, because if you run either of these lists you aren't even making an effort, but it wasn't close at all.

 Stus67 wrote:
So much salt in here for no reason. Oh boo-hoo Guard now have more viable units than just conscript and scion spam. Things that were almost completely not worth taking are going to show up all over the place now whaaaa.

Wouldn't be so bad if your broken units had been fixed, but this codex basically buffed every unit, even the broken ones, with the sole exception of plasma scions. It's an OP codex, broken and not even comparable to previous codices. Sorry you dislike being told the truth.

SilverAlien wrote:

 Colonel Cross wrote:
Yeah they discuss a bunch of stuff, mostly at the beginning and end.

Other than the deathstrike, the colonel created quite a solid list, which isn't WAAC and yet wasn't low tier either, and played it exceptionally well. And it still was incredibly close. Death Guard are just THAT tough to kill.

So, out of curiosity, were you banking on no one bothering to watch it or did you actually think it was a close game? It only looked close due to absurdly good luck with objectives giving the DG maelstrom points even though they'd effectively lost by the end of turn two. By the end of turn one the DG had barley touched the IG army and had lost a fourth of their forces, by the end of turn two they'd still made no lasting damage and had barely gotten through the chaff with half their army gone. Also they aren't tough at all, at least nothing he was running was, do I need to point out PM are easier to kill for their points than normal guard? They are. They aren't even tougher than normal CSM for cost.

Also, no, he did not play it well. At all. He was clearly holding back and said as much in the video at one point. If you want an actual break down of what he did wrong I'll give it, but c'mon he was trying not to totally stomp the guy and they both knew it.

Seriously, I won't say this should be used as a gauge for how strong either army is, because if you run either of these lists you aren't even making an effort, but it wasn't close at all.

 Stus67 wrote:
So much salt in here for no reason. Oh boo-hoo Guard now have more viable units than just conscript and scion spam. Things that were almost completely not worth taking are going to show up all over the place now whaaaa.

Wouldn't be so bad if your broken units had been fixed, but this codex basically buffed every unit, even the broken ones, with the sole exception of plasma scions. It's an OP codex, broken and not even comparable to previous codices. Sorry you dislike being told the truth.

There's less of a reason to take Conscripts now. I don't even plan on running a single squad, one at the most just to play with SITNW. I've diverted most of the points I used for Scions into my Leman Russes which were literally collecting dust. They literally leveled out the broken units by fixing the gak units and making them worth taking again. Guard haven't been this diverse and fluffy in over a decade. Would you have rather them make Conscripts cost 10 points a model, remove Comissars from the Codex, and make Plasma Scions cost more than terminators?

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
All I can say is that I am really happy my gaming group discourages power gaming, but also that there is only one Guard player.

There isn't much in the Guard codex that isn't good. I imagine many very "fluffy" lists will find themselves trouncing the opposition without particularly trying to do so.

 Stus67 wrote:
There's less of a reason to take Conscripts now. I don't even plan on running a single squad, one at the most just to play with SITNW. I've diverted most of the points I used for Scions into my Leman Russes which were literally collecting dust. They literally leveled out the broken units by fixing the gak units and making them worth taking again. Guard haven't been this diverse and fluffy in over a decade. Would you have rather them make Conscripts cost 10 points a model, remove Comissars from the Codex, and make Plasma Scions cost more than terminators?

I mean, you can take IG squads over conscripts, just like you could before the codex. It's going to weaken your army for no real reason, but you can do it. It also wasn't just buffs to bad units, basilisks got a buff despite already being solid. You are ignoring the warlord traits and relics which are absurdly good compared to every previous codex. As for the tanks, getting really powerful doctrines on them is another bit of power creep that seems somewhat arbitrary.

There is some good I admit. I need to do point comparisons still, but eyeballing it I think Russes are fairly reasonable for cost right now which is good. Scions did get a nerf which is also pretty solid.

It's just all this other garbage shaping up to create a mess. Really buffing ranged artillery and tanks but with rule changes and point changes plus doctrines with no nerfs whatsoever to your ability to keep them protected, indeed conscripts are now better at being ablative wounds than they were pre codex, isn't good balance. When we factor all the other bits in... yeah this codex isn't balanced. At all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Arachnofiend wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
All I can say is that I am really happy my gaming group discourages power gaming, but also that there is only one Guard player.

There isn't much in the Guard codex that isn't good. I imagine many very "fluffy" lists will find themselves trouncing the opposition without particularly trying to do so.

Eh, considering how many people did and do like to use mechanized guard, which still appears to be pretty awful (but that's more on the edition than any flaws with the codex), I wouldn't expect it to get too bad. I actually think the list most people want to use (normal guard squads, russes, and some artillery) should merely be at the upper end of good, at least that's my first impression.

SilverAlien wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
All I can say is that I am really happy my gaming group discourages power gaming, but also that there is only one Guard player.

There isn't much in the Guard codex that isn't good. I imagine many very "fluffy" lists will find themselves trouncing the opposition without particularly trying to do so.

Eh, considering how many people did and do like to use mechanized guard, which still appears to be pretty awful (but that's more on the edition than any flaws with the codex), I wouldn't expect it to get too bad. I actually think the list most people want to use (normal guard squads, russes, and some artillery) should merely be at the upper end of good, at least that's my first impression.

Thats the point I was trying to make, about why this Codex is actually good for the non-competitive. They have made many, many units and different ways to play Imperial Guard viable. Ones more strong than others, for example i think with all the buffs Baneblades didn't needed that 40 point drop, okay, but basically everything is in some shape or form viable (Ignoring veterans, that aren't actually that bad, just overshadowed by other options still. Maybe sentinels are still in the low end but with all the buffs and stratagems, I think they'll have their place)
I'm sure that GW could remove all together Conscripts and 90% of IG players wouldn't mind. It will mostly affect Tournament competitive players that did jump into the Imperial-soup bandwagon, but those will just jump to the next hotness so no damage deal to anyone.

No more camo cloaks or carapace for veterans or commanders =(

 Sledgehammer wrote:
No more camo cloaks or carapace for veterans or commanders =(

Is that surprising? No kit for that, hence Rough Riders being gone as well.

SilverAlien wrote:

 Colonel Cross wrote:
Yeah they discuss a bunch of stuff, mostly at the beginning and end.

Other than the deathstrike, the colonel created quite a solid list, which isn't WAAC and yet wasn't low tier either, and played it exceptionally well. And it still was incredibly close. Death Guard are just THAT tough to kill.

So, out of curiosity, were you banking on no one bothering to watch it or did you actually think it was a close game? It only looked close due to absurdly good luck with objectives giving the DG maelstrom points even though they'd effectively lost by the end of turn two. By the end of turn one the DG had barley touched the IG army and had lost a fourth of their forces, by the end of turn two they'd still made no lasting damage and had barely gotten through the chaff with half their army gone. Also they aren't tough at all, at least nothing he was running was, do I need to point out PM are easier to kill for their points than normal guard? They are. They aren't even tougher than normal CSM for cost.

Also, no, he did not play it well. At all. He was clearly holding back and said as much in the video at one point. If you want an actual break down of what he did wrong I'll give it, but c'mon he was trying not to totally stomp the guy and they both knew it.

Seriously, I won't say this should be used as a gauge for how strong either army is, because if you run either of these lists you aren't even making an effort, but it wasn't close at all.
.

Well the Death Guard brought less than an optimal list and proceeded to fight a list which included 7 vehicles and like 60 troops. And the only thing the IG player did to hold back, was list build. Which, as I said earlier, it wasn't the strongest list one could bring. I mean, the Deathstrike is worthless and yet he still got it to do 8 mortal wounds with stratagems and rerolls. Blah. Additionally, the fact the Death Guard DIDN'T just melt when he had a 12" bubble of reroll everything is a testament to their hardiness and the inability of guard to still damage heavy infantry and vehicles. You add Mortarion into that army and actually bring some synergy and it would have been a different game altogether. Just wait and see, the only complaints people are going to have about guard is from hardcore gamers who want to WAAC.

 Quickjager wrote:

 Sledgehammer wrote:
No more camo cloaks or carapace for veterans or commanders =(

Is that surprising? No kit for that, hence Rough Riders being gone as well.

It's funny that they made a point of talking about how even rough riders were worth using back when they were previewing 8th edition, before dropping them in the codex.

 Galas wrote:
Thats the point I was trying to make, about why this Codex is actually good for the non-competitive. They have made many, many units and different ways to play Imperial Guard viable. Ones more strong than others, for example i think with all the buffs Baneblades didn't needed that 40 point drop, okay, but basically everything is in some shape or form viable (Ignoring veterans, that aren't actually that bad, just overshadowed by other options still. Maybe sentinels are still in the low end but with all the buffs and stratagems, I think they'll have their place)
I'm sure that GW could remove all together Conscripts and 90% of IG players wouldn't mind. It will mostly affect Tournament competitive players that did jump into the Imperial-soup bandwagon, but those will just jump to the next hotness so no damage deal to anyone.

Upper end of good does still mean I think it's got a bit of codex creep going on, particularly the warlord trait/relic section. Most armies will be fighting an uphill battle unless they are optimized. It just isn't so bad that these run of the mill lists will auto win/stomp most other armies.

Of course my anger might be somewhat mellowed by the fact I started list building around using a small IG detachment to supplement my main army, and I find myself rather happy with the result. I'm easily won over it seems.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Colonel Cross wrote:
Well the Death Guard brought less than an optimal list and proceeded to fight a list which included 7 vehicles and like 60 troops. And the only thing the IG player did to hold back, was list build. Which, as I said earlier, it wasn't the strongest list one could bring. I mean, the Deathstrike is worthless and yet he still got it to do 8 mortal wounds with stratagems and rerolls. Blah. Additionally, the fact the Death Guard DIDN'T just melt when he had a 12" bubble of reroll everything is a testament to their hardiness and the inability of guard to still damage heavy infantry and vehicles. You add Mortarion into that army and actually bring some synergy and it would have been a different game altogether. Just wait and see, the only complaints people are going to have about guard is from hardcore gamers who want to WAAC.

He didn't utilize his reroll bubble properly, stretched his army way to wide, didn't keep his commissar in range of his screening units in front of his tanks (and only took one commissar but that's lost building I guess), didn't keep the screen positioned properly, and made pask his warlord which really just not a good idea on so many levels. Not to mention how bad things would've been if the DG player didn't get first turn. Oh, and just FYI a toughness 5 unit with a 2+ save due to cover is a worse target for a punisher than toughness 7 with a 3+. That one is counter intuitive enough it isn't really his fault I admit.

As for DG, while we can be tough, PM aren't really (except versus the punisher because str 5 no AP is basically the weapon they were made to tank). We've discussed this at length in the DG tactics page, I'd rather not go to in depth but honestly our tough units are almost exclusively demon engines and terminators. Everything else is fairly average durability to cost wise.

As for the complaints bit... you really shouldn't be judging it on this video. That's all I'll say for now, but it really wasn't playing to the strengths of the army or the high points of the new codex at all.

 Hulksmash wrote:
Christ there is a ton of whining in here. So the current stuff didn't actually get better. The new abilities are offset by the big 3 (mortars, scions, and conscripts) nerfs. Almost 50% increase in drop plas command squads and a 25% bump for the troop variant. Conscripts getting orders 50% of the time. And mortars going up just under 25% per model is solid. Oddly taurox got a tiny buff but i expect thatll be fixed with the release of chapter approved. Since that actually is just getting ready for the printers.

All that's happening is other stuff is viable now. Leman Russ can be used. Super heavies the same. Essentially alternate actual ig armies may be usable.

Imperial soup won't change and got slightly worse. So why the complaining? Overall csm got a way bigger bump from their book and chaos soup is plain ugly nowadays. Overall I'd hold off worrying about it until after chapter approved. I think essentially up its release nothi by before now had anything but the most remedial of adjustments and even the are only for things that werent good not that were already good.

What's the Taurox buff that you expect that the Chapter Approved will immediately nerf? Isn't Chapter Approved supposed to be about improving a few core rules and the and matched play rules? You expect them to go through all the indexes and all the codices unit by unit, turning everything upside down again in that one article? You're saying this new codex will be current and up to date for how long?

 Sledgehammer wrote:
No more camo cloaks or carapace for veterans or commanders =(

How do we request to have NMNR become one of those highlighted Dakka things? When you hover over it it should say "No Model = No Rules".

 Therion wrote:

 Hulksmash wrote:
Christ there is a ton of whining in here. So the current stuff didn't actually get better. The new abilities are offset by the big 3 (mortars, scions, and conscripts) nerfs. Almost 50% increase in drop plas command squads and a 25% bump for the troop variant. Conscripts getting orders 50% of the time. And mortars going up just under 25% per model is solid. Oddly taurox got a tiny buff but i expect thatll be fixed with the release of chapter approved. Since that actually is just getting ready for the printers.

All that's happening is other stuff is viable now. Leman Russ can be used. Super heavies the same. Essentially alternate actual ig armies may be usable.

Imperial soup won't change and got slightly worse. So why the complaining? Overall csm got a way bigger bump from their book and chaos soup is plain ugly nowadays. Overall I'd hold off worrying about it until after chapter approved. I think essentially up its release nothi by before now had anything but the most remedial of adjustments and even the are only for things that werent good not that were already good.

What's the Taurox buff that you expect that the Chapter Approved will immediately nerf? Isn't Chapter Approved supposed to be about improving a few core rules and the and matched play rules? You expect them to go through all the indexes and all the codices unit by unit, turning everything upside down again in that one article? You're saying this new codex will be current and up to date for how long?

Chapter approved is points adjustments and other stuff that doesn't matter as much.

ERJAK wrote:

 Therion wrote:

 Hulksmash wrote:
Christ there is a ton of whining in here. So the current stuff didn't actually get better. The new abilities are offset by the big 3 (mortars, scions, and conscripts) nerfs. Almost 50% increase in drop plas command squads and a 25% bump for the troop variant. Conscripts getting orders 50% of the time. And mortars going up just under 25% per model is solid. Oddly taurox got a tiny buff but i expect thatll be fixed with the release of chapter approved. Since that actually is just getting ready for the printers.

All that's happening is other stuff is viable now. Leman Russ can be used. Super heavies the same. Essentially alternate actual ig armies may be usable.

Imperial soup won't change and got slightly worse. So why the complaining? Overall csm got a way bigger bump from their book and chaos soup is plain ugly nowadays. Overall I'd hold off worrying about it until after chapter approved. I think essentially up its release nothi by before now had anything but the most remedial of adjustments and even the are only for things that werent good not that were already good.

What's the Taurox buff that you expect that the Chapter Approved will immediately nerf? Isn't Chapter Approved supposed to be about improving a few core rules and the and matched play rules? You expect them to go through all the indexes and all the codices unit by unit, turning everything upside down again in that one article? You're saying this new codex will be current and up to date for how long?

Chapter approved is points adjustments and other stuff that doesn't matter as much.

But they plan to do this 'points adjustment' only once per year? So if a codex gets released in November, it immediately gets adjusted, but if it gets released after Christmas, we're stuck with whatever we get for a year?

I'm just curious. In my mind if they plan to invalidate their products few weeks after release, they should at least be consistent. I'm surprised anyone would still pay for a codex, considering the rules therein won't be game legal. In fact, in a game where it takes people months to assemble forces, I'm not sure this model will ever really work. Just when you get your forces ready, it's no longer legal for play.

No reason to buy a codex except, ya know, for all the actual unit and army rules. If it's anything like aos 99.9% will be point changes. They've officially only changed a single unit in 2 years of generals handbook.

And yes, I expect a point adjustment for taurox along with other items. As for the model I think that it's actually great.We're no longer stuck for a decade at times with point values and for anyone other than tourney players it'll encourage people to build more all around armies since the outliers are more likely to get reigned in.

Guard is broken gak and people defending it are absolutely crazy to think otherwise. This is exactly 7th ed craftworld elder. They already are the strongest tournament army and will be much worse after this codex. Even friendly games need to purposefully use lesss ideal units and hope your opponent plays an optimized list for there to be a balanced games.

However not every single unit is overpower some are just ok and some only decent is very specific setups. For example melta vets in chimeras or classic mech guard are only ok. Still overpriced chimera, still elite basic vets and melta is still not plasmaguns. Sentinels are still weak slow vehicles that can't move and shoot heavy like leman russes or double shoot or whatever. Deathstrike is still gak becuase doing a bunch of mortal wounds to a single unit around turn 4 or later is basically to late if it even fires during the game. Grenade launchers are still and continue to be the worst special weapon.

However barring the above and a few unit upgrades like banners and medics there is some very broken combos. The conscript nerf did nothing to stop conscripts from being the cheap durable wall it was. Plasma scions and tauroxs while slightly more expensive and stronger offensively making them better suicide plasmaspam and Gatling/missile spam units. Basic infantry are better across the board. Artillery is better across the board. Guard psykers which were already spammed and the cheapest in game are just ridiculously better.

However saying this I think we are going to see a strong return to a guard favorite of tank companies. I think tanks will be extremely competitive ffs leman russes are now objective secured. Tank companies may not win a bunch of tournaments, but it's going to wreck face at your flgs. For tournaments conscripts and plasmascions and primaris and astorpath psykers are going nowhere. I also fully expect some absolutely broken combos like 2++ ogryns running around like mini 40pt Magnus models.

I know it's off-topic, but really if they want to use a living ruleset system they need to ditch rulebooks (just make them fluff books, campaign ideas) and have one online ruleset for matched play with the updated points and rules.

Played non-codex guard again today, they are going to be brutal with these new rules. I'm scared to think what the Eldar book will be like.

Dionysodorus wrote:
This seems like a pretty different sort of position than what I took you to be staking out earlier. So, to be clear, I do not think that Guard players should just try to maximize the number of Infantry models they have on the table. I do think they should make use of the buffs they've got access to, etc. I'm a little confused at your post here because you start off by saying "points aren't everything" and then you proceed to engage in highly artificial mathhammer about incomparable situations that rarely actually arise. Certainly nothing here looks like an argument against the position that Infantry are one of the best Troops choices in the game. Like, you're comparing the damage output of a Berzerker that magically finds itself in CC to the same points in Guardsmen and remarking on how it does more damage (although actually the Guardsmen do okay). Why do we care about this at all? I don't understand why you think this shows that Berzerkers, as opposed to Guardsmen, are "good enough to do much more than hold objectives". I don't understand why this means Guardsmen aren't really, really good.

Ok, to make it simple: I think my main point is that however good/OP the codex may be and however cost-efficient guardsmen may be, they still remain unimpressive on the board. They're still one of the most fragile troops in the game, and cost-efficiency works on army composition, not indvidual units.
And it's interesting that this was the point that people chose to address... Rather than the other ones about guard lists without conscripts or Celestine...
I think that this codex won't be so good that people end up trouncing their opponents without an effort. The idea that the codex is *that* broken is ridiculous.

gungo wrote:
Guard is broken gak and people defending it are absolutely crazy to think otherwise. This is exactly 7th ed craftworld elder. They already are the strongest tournament army and will be much worse after this codex. Even friendly games need to purposefully use lesss ideal units and hope your opponent plays an optimized list for there to be a balanced games.

However not every single unit is overpower some are just ok and some only decent is very specific setups. For example melta vets in chimeras or classic mech guard are only ok. Still overpriced chimera, still elite basic vets and melta is still not plasmaguns. Sentinels are still weak slow vehicles that can't move and shoot heavy like leman russes or double shoot or whatever. Deathstrike is still gak becuase doing a bunch of mortal wounds to a single unit around turn 4 or later is basically to late if it even fires during the game. Grenade launchers are still and continue to be the worst special weapon.

However barring the above and a few unit upgrades like banners and medics there is some very broken combos. The conscript nerf did nothing to stop conscripts from being the cheap durable wall it was. Plasma scions and tauroxs while slightly more expensive and stronger offensively making them better suicide plasmaspam and Gatling/missile spam units. Basic infantry are better across the board. Artillery is better across the board. Guard psykers which were already spammed and the cheapest in game are just ridiculously better.

However saying this I think we are going to see a strong return to a guard favorite of tank companies. I think tanks will be extremely competitive ffs leman russes are now objective secured. Tank companies may not win a bunch of tournaments, but it's going to wreck face at your flgs. For tournaments conscripts and plasmascions and primaris and astorpath psykers are going nowhere. I also fully expect some absolutely broken combos like 2++ ogryns running around like mini 40pt Magnus models.

The book isn't broken. Two units are. It otherwise has excellent internal balance. However, only five armies now have codex's whilst everybody else has the Index, which means that yes the power levels are skewered towards the Guard... FOR NOW.

I know people will see this as a bias post, given my avatar and title, but this really is the kind of book GW should strive for with ALL future codexes, where there is excellent internal balance where every just about every unit is viable, instead of "take Conscripts and Scions and nothing else because we've got two REALLY good units and the rest is okay-to-crap" from before. 40k has suffered big time for years with this and now we MIGHT finally be moving towards more balanced books where 80% of models aren't useless junk it would suck if things got rolled back.

Now whether it's just a lucky coincidence this time around and every other army is going to suffer from the same problems as before- well, we'll see. But for once I'm going to try and be optimistic.

 Colonel Cross wrote:

SilverAlien wrote:

 Colonel Cross wrote:
Yeah they discuss a bunch of stuff, mostly at the beginning and end.

Other than the deathstrike, the colonel created quite a solid list, which isn't WAAC and yet wasn't low tier either, and played it exceptionally well. And it still was incredibly close. Death Guard are just THAT tough to kill.

So, out of curiosity, were you banking on no one bothering to watch it or did you actually think it was a close game? It only looked close due to absurdly good luck with objectives giving the DG maelstrom points even though they'd effectively lost by the end of turn two. By the end of turn one the DG had barley touched the IG army and had lost a fourth of their forces, by the end of turn two they'd still made no lasting damage and had barely gotten through the chaff with half their army gone. Also they aren't tough at all, at least nothing he was running was, do I need to point out PM are easier to kill for their points than normal guard? They are. They aren't even tougher than normal CSM for cost.

Also, no, he did not play it well. At all. He was clearly holding back and said as much in the video at one point. If you want an actual break down of what he did wrong I'll give it, but c'mon he was trying not to totally stomp the guy and they both knew it.

Seriously, I won't say this should be used as a gauge for how strong either army is, because if you run either of these lists you aren't even making an effort, but it wasn't close at all.
.

Well the Death Guard brought less than an optimal list and proceeded to fight a list which included 7 vehicles and like 60 troops. And the only thing the IG player did to hold back, was list build. Which, as I said earlier, it wasn't the strongest list one could bring. I mean, the Deathstrike is worthless and yet he still got it to do 8 mortal wounds with stratagems and rerolls. Blah. Additionally, the fact the Death Guard DIDN'T just melt when he had a 12" bubble of reroll everything is a testament to their hardiness and the inability of guard to still damage heavy infantry and vehicles. You add Mortarion into that army and actually bring some synergy and it would have been a different game altogether. Just wait and see, the only complaints people are going to have about guard is from hardcore gamers who want to WAAC.

Sorry mate, I watched that whole thing last night while I was painting and that game was entertaining but a complete joke as far as balance was concerned. As soon as you see a deathdtrike, 2 eradicators, and sniper command squads you should have been clued in. Even then he did absolutely moronic things like scout move his 3 individual sentinals all in a clump about 9 inches away from the entire deathguad army when he was going 2nd. Then he had his line about 12" up-field on his deployment edge for no reason other then to not table the other guy before he lost a single model. If you didn't read between the lines that they engineered this game to be closer then it normally would have been then I don't know what to say to you. I mean it didn't annoy you that he literally never used a CP to reroll crucial failed to hit or wound rolls for his first few turns? It was so obvious I had to laugh. Thats not me laughing at them either btw, was a great production, but to somehow use it as evidence that this book isn't trololol levels of good is pretty daft.

gungo wrote:Guard is broken gak and people defending it are absolutely crazy to think otherwise. This is exactly 7th ed craftworld elder. They already are the strongest tournament army and will be much worse after this codex. Even friendly games need to purposefully use lesss ideal units and hope your opponent plays an optimized list for there to be a balanced games.

However not every single unit is overpower some are just ok and some only decent is very specific setups. For example melta vets in chimeras or classic mech guard are only ok. Still overpriced chimera, still elite basic vets and melta is still not plasmaguns. Sentinels are still weak slow vehicles that can't move and shoot heavy like leman russes or double shoot or whatever. Deathstrike is still gak becuase doing a bunch of mortal wounds to a single unit around turn 4 or later is basically to late if it even fires during the game. Grenade launchers are still and continue to be the worst special weapon.

However barring the above and a few unit upgrades like banners and medics there is some very broken combos. The conscript nerf did nothing to stop conscripts from being the cheap durable wall it was. Plasma scions and tauroxs while slightly more expensive and stronger offensively making them better suicide plasmaspam and Gatling/missile spam units. Basic infantry are better across the board. Artillery is better across the board. Guard psykers which were already spammed and the cheapest in game are just ridiculously better.

However saying this I think we are going to see a strong return to a guard favorite of tank companies. I think tanks will be extremely competitive ffs leman russes are now objective secured. Tank companies may not win a bunch of tournaments, but it's going to wreck face at your flgs. For tournaments conscripts and plasmascions and primaris and astorpath psykers are going nowhere. I also fully expect some absolutely broken combos like 2++ ogryns running around like mini 40pt Magnus models.

You are contradicting yourself, calling Guard as broken and then naming only units that are not.
Except for Scions and Conscripts prior to the codex no other unit was called OP. But a lot of other units were so bad that they never would be taken. You named yourself some that still suck after the codex.

The only purpose of conscripts is to take wounds, what else should they do? They were never intended to be an offensive power, which they were with FRSRF. That got rightfully nerfed by lowering their unit number and make it harder to get orders.
If Plasma guns really cost 13pts for bs3+ models than scions are not slighty but a lot more expensive than before. And as it is required to get the regimental tactics you can only get 3 scion command squads in a detachement and that will require you to take 3 scion non-command squads.
I guess no one will loose their regimental tactics while mixing scions in other detachements as it was the case prior to the tactics. That would limit the spam.


Now some general questions.
Afaik in every preview of a unit the warhammer community did with the regimental previews, they announced a special ability or rule for that unit.
For the chimera they did nothing. Anyone who could take a look at the codex, is there really nothing to the chimera?

Tank orders can still only be given by tank commanders and only to leman russ?

I'll reiterate that, as someone mostly interested in playing Sisters and Eldar, I don't think this codex looks simply broken. I do think, as I've said before, that this codex appears to make Guard easily the strongest solo faction in the game. But it doesn't appear to me to add all that much to Imperial Soup, which is obviously the major concern, competitive balance-wise. Scion (and presumably soon Elysian) plasma got nerfed, which is a big deal. Conscripts got a bit better if you're taking them in a pure Guard detachment, although this is at least a little limiting if you also want Guilliman (a LoW) and Celestine and a squad of Sisters and some Assassins. I suspect that non-Guilliman Soup got somewhat better, thanks in large part to the excellent warlord traits and relics available here. However, it doesn't strike me as likely to be that much better than Chaos Soup.

Maybe what's going on here is just that GW simply does not intend for people to look at Guard as a single faction. The faction is Imperium. The other major faction is Chaos. There are two small-ish factions under the Aeldari and Tyranid/Cult/Guard umbrellas, and then there are a couple of bit players (Necrons, Orks, Tau). It would not be crazy for GW to care only about balancing Imperial and Chaos Soup against these other factions, while totally ignoring meaningless comparisons between pure Guard armies and pure Death Guard armies. Now, of course it would be surprising if the goal here is for Codex: Orks to be competitive with Imperial Soup, but it's plausible that they're mostly thinking about Imperium vs Chaos.

The big losers here seem to me to be people who want to play with and against one-subfaction armies. It is not a good day to be a Black Templars player. In some ways the Guard codex is fantastic for this: a bunch of different kinds of Catachan armies are going to be really solid. But of course they're a lot more solid than many Space Marine Chapter, Chaos Legion, Grey Knight, AdMech, and Death Guard armies. It'll be really interesting to see what they do with the much less soup-oriented Tyranid and Eldar codices, though I suppose the real test will be when we get to one of the 3 friendless xenos factions.

 Hollow wrote:

 lolman1c wrote:

 Hollow wrote:
...If only GW's design team were smart like you...

He has a point. 30 years and they still haven't figured it out...

Figured out what? How to create and maintain the most popular, prolific and profitable tabletop miniatures game on the planet? Seems to me like they got that ALL figured out.

Its about dollars and cents not balanced armies and rules ladies and gentlemen.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mymearan wrote:
This codex is a trash fire. So glad none of my regular opponents play Guard.

As a long time guard player comments like this erk the gak out of me. Not everyone is spamming conscripts etc.

It's also kind of funny the consensus is they are OP and thank god you do not play against them. Come on rise up to a challenge for once. Figure out how to beat them instead of complaining.

 gainsay wrote:
As a long time guard player comments like this erk the gak out of me. Not everyone is spamming conscripts etc.

It's also kind of funny the consensus is they are OP and thank god you do not play against them. Come on rise up to a challenge for once. Figure out how to beat them instead of complaining.

First off, even without abusing the broken units yes the other bits of the codex is literally just better than previous armies have had available. Which is silly.

Second, most of us already know what could or could not be done to beat such a list. At a glance, I'm not beating an optimized guard list with my CSM, I might with my DG if I build for it, and I might with admech if I ally in a small guard detachment. The former and latter mean this edition now starts to remind me of 7th more, when some armies were simply on different levels and you often had to ally in other armies just to have a shot against some single faction armies. Those are not good things to be making me remember.

Firefox1 wrote:

gungo wrote:Guard is broken gak and people defending it are absolutely crazy to think otherwise. This is exactly 7th ed craftworld elder. They already are the strongest tournament army and will be much worse after this codex. Even friendly games need to purposefully use lesss ideal units and hope your opponent plays an optimized list for there to be a balanced games.

However not every single unit is overpower some are just ok and some only decent is very specific setups. For example melta vets in chimeras or classic mech guard are only ok. Still overpriced chimera, still elite basic vets and melta is still not plasmaguns. Sentinels are still weak slow vehicles that can't move and shoot heavy like leman russes or double shoot or whatever. Deathstrike is still gak becuase doing a bunch of mortal wounds to a single unit around turn 4 or later is basically to late if it even fires during the game. Grenade launchers are still and continue to be the worst special weapon.

However barring the above and a few unit upgrades like banners and medics there is some very broken combos. The conscript nerf did nothing to stop conscripts from being the cheap durable wall it was. Plasma scions and tauroxs while slightly more expensive and stronger offensively making them better suicide plasmaspam and Gatling/missile spam units. Basic infantry are better across the board. Artillery is better across the board. Guard psykers which were already spammed and the cheapest in game are just ridiculously better.

However saying this I think we are going to see a strong return to a guard favorite of tank companies. I think tanks will be extremely competitive ffs leman russes are now objective secured. Tank companies may not win a bunch of tournaments, but it's going to wreck face at your flgs. For tournaments conscripts and plasmascions and primaris and astorpath psykers are going nowhere. I also fully expect some absolutely broken combos like 2++ ogryns running around like mini 40pt Magnus models.

You are contradicting yourself, calling Guard as broken and then naming only units that are not.
Except for Scions and Conscripts prior to the codex no other unit was called OP. But a lot of other units were so bad that they never would be taken. You named yourself some that still suck after the codex.

The only purpose of conscripts is to take wounds, what else should they do? They were never intended to be an offensive power, which they were with FRSRF. That got rightfully nerfed by lowering their unit number and make it harder to get orders.
If Plasma guns really cost 13pts for bs3+ models than scions are not slighty but a lot more expensive than before. And as it is required to get the regimental tactics you can only get 3 scion command squads in a detachement and that will require you to take 3 scion non-command squads.
I guess no one will loose their regimental tactics while mixing scions in other detachements as it was the case prior to the tactics. That would limit the spam.


Now some general questions.
Afaik in every preview of a unit the warhammer community did with the regimental previews, they announced a special ability or rule for that unit.
For the chimera they did nothing. Anyone who could take a look at the codex, is there really nothing to the chimera?

Tank orders can still only be given by tank commanders and only to leman russ?

Do you know what contradiction means?
Saying these handful of units aren't broken but everything else is really bad. While the army was already winning almost every tournament and then got upgrades across the board is not a contradiction.
Your head is so far in the sand if you don't think this codex is flat out bonkers broken!!
Unlesss you are playing a super fluffy good looking army with medics banners and voxs and no spam and lots of classic non imperial soup units or pure guard mech melta vet units you are going to wreck face in any friendly game where your opponent is not trying to play competitive. And in tournaments majority guard armies (with a handful of imperial soup units) are winning... they already were but it's only got much worse.

All seriousness as I don't follow tournaments enough(they don't interest me):

Were there legitimately 100% Guard lists topping tournaments? My understanding was that it was Imperial soup lists winning. Conscripts and Artillery might have been present but that doesn't automatically make it an IG list.