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2017/09/29 19:54:49
Subject: How powerful did Horus become at the peak of the Heresy?
They have already said that things will shake out differently then we assume they will, I just really hope they do not do something insane like Horus is on the Throne, Sangunius turned Traitor and he had to kill them both, etc.
I think it's possible that instead of the Emperor going to the Vengeful Spirit the final showdown will be with Horus doing a desperate last charge. His signature move is targeting the enemy leadership with overwhelming force after all. Plus apparently in one of the books someone is invited to see where Sanguinius fell and it's within the Palace if I recall correctly.
It is in Know no fear book, Ollanus is taken by John Gramaticus to see Horus over dead Sanguinius body and Emperor apparently dying. There is also explicitly said that it is on ship deck and in the windows Terra can be seen burning.
2017/09/30 07:43:29
Subject: Re:How powerful did Horus become at the peak of the Heresy?
You see, Horus only managed to mortally wound the Emperor because the Emperor was too merciful to Horus. I think that's kind of the point of both this duel and the big picture in Warhammer 40,000.
Why else the imperium adopted a total "no mercy"-policy after Horus Heresy?
Makes sense, though I would think the Emperor wouldn't allow himself to be mortally wounded due to mercy. When it came to going all out offensively, yes, but mercy shouldn't have played a part in defending himself based on how strong he was.
If the Emperor showed no mercy*, he would have blasted Horus with his full psychic might immediately when he saw him and Horus would have no chance to strike. The Emperor could have done it too. When he actually did blast Horus, he was at his weakest, he was dying. If he was able to do it at that condition, there's no reason to believe he couldn't do it when he was uninjured.
So, he engaged Horus in a close combat duel, which is something that primarchs can survive, even if they are (supposedly) gravely wounded. (For example, Leman Russ survived when Lion El'Jonson impaled his torso with his power sword.) And even then, the Emperor didn't give his everything to the duel. The problem (in this case) was that he felt too much mercy. I think this was kind of uncharacteristic of the Emperor, considering how he generally operates.
*Like his followers do in the present day.
Precisely, Emperor has so much power in his dying breath that the united power of chaos has to withdraw in horror, giving Horus a moment of clarity. In His full power, Chaos wouldn't even touch him, they have to send Lorgar and sons all the way to the past to have a chance at the grand plan.
Mercy was, the Emperor thinking He has a chance to bring back Horus again, He has, but He didn't realize, Horus was too weak to the touch of Chaos, Horus knew he will relapse again, so when E understand this, He has no choice but to blast Horus into OBLIVION with his dying power.
I want the Wolf King!
2017/09/30 09:16:53
Subject: Re:How powerful did Horus become at the peak of the Heresy?
You see, Horus only managed to mortally wound the Emperor because the Emperor was too merciful to Horus. I think that's kind of the point of both this duel and the big picture in Warhammer 40,000.
Why else the imperium adopted a total "no mercy"-policy after Horus Heresy?
Makes sense, though I would think the Emperor wouldn't allow himself to be mortally wounded due to mercy. When it came to going all out offensively, yes, but mercy shouldn't have played a part in defending himself based on how strong he was.
If the Emperor showed no mercy*, he would have blasted Horus with his full psychic might immediately when he saw him and Horus would have no chance to strike. The Emperor could have done it too. When he actually did blast Horus, he was at his weakest, he was dying. If he was able to do it at that condition, there's no reason to believe he couldn't do it when he was uninjured.
So, he engaged Horus in a close combat duel, which is something that primarchs can survive, even if they are (supposedly) gravely wounded. (For example, Leman Russ survived when Lion El'Jonson impaled his torso with his power sword.) And even then, the Emperor didn't give his everything to the duel. The problem (in this case) was that he felt too much mercy. I think this was kind of uncharacteristic of the Emperor, considering how he generally operates.
*Like his followers do in the present day.
Precisely, Emperor has so much power in his dying breath that the united power of chaos has to withdraw in horror, giving Horus a moment of clarity. In His full power, Chaos wouldn't even touch him, they have to send Lorgar and sons all the way to the past to have a chance at the grand plan.
Mercy was, the Emperor thinking He has a chance to bring back Horus again, He has, but He didn't realize, Horus was too weak to the touch of Chaos, Horus knew he will relapse again, so when E understand this, He has no choice but to blast Horus into OBLIVION with his dying power.
Imperial dogma and blind faith in the power of the Emperor the Gods achieved what they wanted by crippling the Emperor and no longer had need of their puppet.
To think that the Gods feared the Emperor at that point is nought but hubris. At that point, the Gods had won.
Absolutely one of the main ways that the Emperor underestimated the Gods was by assuming that all of his creations would be loyal to him, no matter how badly he treated them.
He underestimated the ability of the Gods to get under someone's skin ajd turn them against him (although certainly with Angron he didn't need much persuading).
Ynneadwraith wrote: Absolutely one of the main ways that the Emperor underestimated the Gods was by assuming that all of his creations would be loyal to him, no matter how badly he treated them.
He underestimated the ability of the Gods to get under someone's skin ajd turn them against him (although certainly with Angron he didn't need much persuading).
It was, really, the fatal flaw in his plan.
Human interaction/basic understanding of others?
tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam
2017/10/01 19:30:40
Subject: How powerful did Horus become at the peak of the Heresy?
Imperial dogma and blind faith in the power of the Emperor the Gods achieved what they wanted by crippling the Emperor and no longer had need of their puppet.
To think that the Gods feared the Emperor at that point is nought but hubris. At that point, the Gods had won.
Dogma and blind faith, eh?
And how is your reliance on these so called "gods" different from those things?
To think that Chaos is an unbeatable force is nought but hubris. At that point, the humanity had won.
"Be like General Tarsus of yore, bulletproof and free of fear!"
2017/10/02 07:27:07
Subject: How powerful did Horus become at the peak of the Heresy?
I have no reliance on the gods, but it's just wise in-universe not to underestimate them (and people seem to exaggerate the power of the emperor).
It's also simply stating fact. At the end of the Heresy, the Gods got what they wanted and the Emperor's vision was destroyed. Humanity most certainly didn't win that one...
So the novel Vengeful Spirit goes into some detail on where Horus gains his power from.
It hints that at some point early in the Crusade the Emperor went to this planet, entered the Warp through a temple, and when he exited his powers had become the godlike abilities that he now possessed.
Horus did the same thing. Conquered the planet, went into the Warp, and when he left, he was something different. He now possessed powers far beyond what he had before. I would say that if Horus and the Emp's had been on level playing fields before entering that place, they'd have been equals, but it's been pretty long established that the Emp's was still a massively powerful psycher even before this, and that still made the difference between the two.
(For example, Leman Russ survived when Lion El'Jonson impaled his torso with his power sword.)
Lion's sword is over-rated. Curze damned near choked the Lion to death *after* being impaled with that sword.
Curze was mortally wounded. It took some warp trickery to bring him back to life. There is definitely something different about the Lion Sword. Russ acknowledged that it took his wound far longer to heal then it should have, and Guilliman didn't want it anywhere near the Emperor.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/02 10:14:51
Full Frontal Nerdity
2017/10/02 15:00:11
Subject: How powerful did Horus become at the peak of the Heresy?
pm713 wrote: Pretty sure the Lion Sword also messes with anyone who touches it that's not the Lion.
Never heard that. Guilliman handled it when he broke it, his Deathwing Lt. carried it for a while, and, well Cypher has been rocking it for 10,000 years.
Full Frontal Nerdity
2017/10/03 19:48:08
Subject: How powerful did Horus become at the peak of the Heresy?
pm713 wrote: Pretty sure the Lion Sword also messes with anyone who touches it that's not the Lion.
Never heard that. Guilliman handled it when he broke it, his Deathwing Lt. carried it for a while, and, well Cypher has been rocking it for 10,000 years.
It's in the newer Dark Angel trilogy. Cypher never actually touches it, advises Asmodai not to and when he does he gets visions of the Lions 'death'.
tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam
2017/10/03 23:04:40
Subject: How powerful did Horus become at the peak of the Heresy?
I have no reliance on the gods, but it's just wise in-universe not to underestimate them (and people seem to exaggerate the power of the emperor).
It's also simply stating fact. At the end of the Heresy, the Gods got what they wanted and the Emperor's vision was destroyed. Humanity most certainly didn't win that one...
Underestimating your foes is a folly known as hubris.
Overestimating them is a folly known as defeatism.
"Be like General Tarsus of yore, bulletproof and free of fear!"
2017/10/04 08:45:47
Subject: How powerful did Horus become at the peak of the Heresy?
I have no reliance on the gods, but it's just wise in-universe not to underestimate them (and people seem to exaggerate the power of the emperor).
It's also simply stating fact. At the end of the Heresy, the Gods got what they wanted and the Emperor's vision was destroyed. Humanity most certainly didn't win that one...
Underestimating your foes is a folly known as hubris.
Overestimating them is a folly known as defeatism.
And treating lovecraftian entities beyond our comprehension as lovecraftian entities beyond our comprehension is called realism
I have no reliance on the gods, but it's just wise in-universe not to underestimate them (and people seem to exaggerate the power of the emperor).
It's also simply stating fact. At the end of the Heresy, the Gods got what they wanted and the Emperor's vision was destroyed. Humanity most certainly didn't win that one...
Underestimating your foes is a folly known as hubris.
Overestimating them is a folly known as defeatism.
And treating lovecraftian entities beyond our comprehension as lovecraftian entities beyond our comprehension is called realism
Hear, men? That right there. Defeatism.
"Be like General Tarsus of yore, bulletproof and free of fear!"
2017/10/04 21:28:59
Subject: How powerful did Horus become at the peak of the Heresy?
I have no reliance on the gods, but it's just wise in-universe not to underestimate them (and people seem to exaggerate the power of the emperor).
It's also simply stating fact. At the end of the Heresy, the Gods got what they wanted and the Emperor's vision was destroyed. Humanity most certainly didn't win that one...
Underestimating your foes is a folly known as hubris.
Overestimating them is a folly known as defeatism.
And treating lovecraftian entities beyond our comprehension as lovecraftian entities beyond our comprehension is called realism
Hear, men? That right there. Defeatism.
Now go get'm boys! Those galaxy-wide multi-dimensional storms of soul energy and emotion are no match for our laser pointers!
Last one over the top gets a visit from the Commissar!
(For example, Leman Russ survived when Lion El'Jonson impaled his torso with his power sword.)
Lion's sword is over-rated. Curze damned near choked the Lion to death *after* being impaled with that sword.
Curze was mortally wounded. It took some warp trickery to bring him back to life. There is definitely something different about the Lion Sword. Russ acknowledged that it took his wound far longer to heal then it should have, and Guilliman didn't want it anywhere near the Emperor.
Wrong story. I referring to the one before the Lion ambushed Curze and presumably threw some of his own troops at Curze to weaken him first.
The first story where they met, where Curze tried to tell the Lion something was wrong with his own Legion and then the Lion sucker-stabbed Curze.
It ended with a Dark Angel sacrificing his life so his bitch of a primarch could avoid Curze choking the Lion to death.
Imperial dogma and blind faith in the power of the Emperor the Gods achieved what they wanted by crippling the Emperor and no longer had need of their puppet.
To think that the Gods feared the Emperor at that point is nought but hubris. At that point, the Gods had won.
Incorrect, though it's easy to think that. According to Inquisition the roleplay/large miniature gw game (2nd page of the rulebook) the Emperor was infact restored by the golden throne and freed of what was killing him. The ruling body of Terra at the time (early Inquisition and high lords of Terra) where the ones making the decision to keep him in the throne when he could infact be safely disconected and be restored. They did this for three main reasons.
Firstly it was argued that the Imperium needed a symbol of unity. Not a man and a leader but a god and a symbol. The Imperium was shattered and the Emperor on his golden thrones "sacrifice" would serve as the perfect tool to re-unite the Imperium.
Secondly because they where unsure what would happen to the Emperor when restored. Would he be the same man? Would his perpetual state re-set him to someone opposed their intrests? Would the souls already consumed in the healing process warp his character to be unrecognisable? No, much better to have a docile proxy leader while they themselves became the defacto Imperium government.
Third and least obvious is that with Malcador dead the Emperors political support was low to the point that his closest followers and those pro his reinkarnation where assasinated. Things would definetly have been diffrent if Malcador was in his seat at that time.
The point is that the Emperor was not crippled in the long run. The book states that it is the greatest lie of the Imperium. He was wounded but then got revived, but never disconnected from the chair. In this way chaos failed. The Emperor had infact already beaten them and knew he wouldn't die as long as he made it to the throne. Unfortunantely, the ones who knew this betrayed him for their own vision of the Imperium.
On a side note there's been a theory floating around that the "disconnect" button is in the hand of the Grey Knight Supreme Grand Master.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/10/05 12:12:37
His pattern of returning alive after being declared dead occurred often enough during Cain's career that the Munitorum made a special ruling that Ciaphas Cain is to never be considered dead, despite evidence to the contrary.
2017/10/05 14:24:02
Subject: How powerful did Horus become at the peak of the Heresy?
And that wasn't part of the Gods' gamble? They're vast intelligences beyond our comprehension. Predicting and gambling on the actions of mortals is quite literally what they do for a living.
It was a gamble, don't get me wrong. They're vastly intelligent but I do believe they can still be outwitted or hamstrung by unforseen circumstances. However, anticipating the reaction of humans to the Emperor's apparent death is well within the bounds of plans they've concocted previously and since.
Imperial dogma and blind faith in the power of the Emperor the Gods achieved what they wanted by crippling the Emperor and no longer had need of their puppet.
To think that the Gods feared the Emperor at that point is nought but hubris. At that point, the Gods had won.
Incorrect, though it's easy to think that. According to Inquisition the roleplay/large miniature gw game (2nd page of the rulebook) the Emperor was infact restored by the golden throne and freed of what was killing him. The ruling body of Terra at the time (early Inquisition and high lords of Terra) where the ones making the decision to keep him in the throne when he could infact be safely disconected and be restored. They did this for three main reasons.
Firstly it was argued that the Imperium needed a symbol of unity. Not a man and a leader but a god and a symbol. The Imperium was shattered and the Emperor on his golden thrones "sacrifice" would serve as the perfect tool to re-unite the Imperium.
Secondly because they where unsure what would happen to the Emperor when restored. Would he be the same man? Would his perpetual state re-set him to someone opposed their intrests? Would the souls already consumed in the healing process warp his character to be unrecognisable? No, much better to have a docile proxy leader while they themselves became the defacto Imperium government.
Third and least obvious is that with Malcador dead the Emperors political support was low to the point that his closest followers and those pro his reinkarnation where assasinated. Things would definetly have been diffrent if Malcador was in his seat at that time.
The point is that the Emperor was not crippled in the long run. The book states that it is the greatest lie of the Imperium. He was wounded but then got revived, but never disconnected from the chair. In this way chaos failed. The Emperor had infact already beaten them and knew he wouldn't die as long as he made it to the throne. Unfortunantely, the ones who knew this betrayed him for their own vision of the Imperium.
On a side note there's been a theory floating around that the "disconnect" button is in the hand of the Grey Knight Supreme Grand Master.
I was unaware of the fluff in Inquisition and thought it was something distinct from that of the main 40k universe. Feels weird to be hearing this now.
Question: how much can Inquisition be held to be cannon? Is this supposed to be the historical record of what actually happened, the POV of some person in the universe, an alternative take that may / may not be true, or something else altogether?
Imperial dogma and blind faith in the power of the Emperor the Gods achieved what they wanted by crippling the Emperor and no longer had need of their puppet.
To think that the Gods feared the Emperor at that point is nought but hubris. At that point, the Gods had won.
Incorrect, though it's easy to think that. According to Inquisition the roleplay/large miniature gw game (2nd page of the rulebook) the Emperor was infact restored by the golden throne and freed of what was killing him. The ruling body of Terra at the time (early Inquisition and high lords of Terra) where the ones making the decision to keep him in the throne when he could infact be safely disconected and be restored. They did this for three main reasons.
Firstly it was argued that the Imperium needed a symbol of unity. Not a man and a leader but a god and a symbol. The Imperium was shattered and the Emperor on his golden thrones "sacrifice" would serve as the perfect tool to re-unite the Imperium.
Secondly because they where unsure what would happen to the Emperor when restored. Would he be the same man? Would his perpetual state re-set him to someone opposed their intrests? Would the souls already consumed in the healing process warp his character to be unrecognisable? No, much better to have a docile proxy leader while they themselves became the defacto Imperium government.
Third and least obvious is that with Malcador dead the Emperors political support was low to the point that his closest followers and those pro his reinkarnation where assasinated. Things would definetly have been diffrent if Malcador was in his seat at that time.
The point is that the Emperor was not crippled in the long run. The book states that it is the greatest lie of the Imperium. He was wounded but then got revived, but never disconnected from the chair. In this way chaos failed. The Emperor had infact already beaten them and knew he wouldn't die as long as he made it to the throne. Unfortunantely, the ones who knew this betrayed him for their own vision of the Imperium.
On a side note there's been a theory floating around that the "disconnect" button is in the hand of the Grey Knight Supreme Grand Master.
I was unaware of the fluff in Inquisition and thought it was something distinct from that of the main 40k universe. Feels weird to be hearing this now.
Question: how much can Inquisition be held to be cannon? Is this supposed to be the historical record of what actually happened, the POV of some person in the universe, an alternative take that may / may not be true, or something else altogether?
Put spoilers to make this post shorter. It's a good question. It was definetly written to be considered canon but that was many editions ago. The page predates the HH books and the concept of perpetuals. It's written as a recording of what was going on at the table of the High lords. Though in the 40k setting there's very little that's undisputably true so who knows. The first page claims "everything you've been told [about the Imperium] is a lie". The second page goes on with what I've written above.
@Ynneadwraith it's possible, even probable that chaos goal with the siege of Terra was to lock the Emperor in the throne. Chaos servants does after all reap the benefits of the astronomican while losing the single greatest entity opposed to them (at the time. You could argue that'd be Ynnead now). The fact that a lucky occurence made it happen might not be luck at all, such is the nature of chaos. So who knows. I like to consider it a chaos loss since its forces where mostly banished to the EoT and the milky way would soon be relatively unified again. Though given what's happening now with the rift, who can say. Hell, it's even hard to tell what chaos actual "win condition" is. All sentient races giving in to their urges I suppose. Maybe they've been playing a 80.000 long game with humanity since we started building stuff. Would be properly Tzeentch like.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/10/06 19:37:33
His pattern of returning alive after being declared dead occurred often enough during Cain's career that the Munitorum made a special ruling that Ciaphas Cain is to never be considered dead, despite evidence to the contrary.
2017/10/07 20:16:45
Subject: Re:How powerful did Horus become at the peak of the Heresy?
@Ynneadwraith it's possible, even probable that chaos goal with the siege of Terra was to lock the Emperor in the throne. Chaos servants does after all reap the benefits of the astronomican while losing the single greatest entity opposed to them (at the time. You could argue that'd be Ynnead now).
The Emperor is still opposing the chaos "gods". Only difference is that he can't act as directly as during the Great Crusade. He probably now has a greater influence in the grand scheme of things, even though he was able to do much, much more with a more limited but also more focused power and influence he held when he wasn't bound to the Golden Throne. He could turn the tide of any battle he fought in. People were inspired by his presence. He could invent new, groundbreaking ways for the Imperium to win its wars. And most importantly, he could rule as he saw fit, as there was no political opponent who could challenge his ways and vision. Even a small compromise was out of question when the Emperor walked among the mortals.
Such unity of purpose was and still is an Anathema to the so called "gods" of chaos.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/07 20:17:51
"Be like General Tarsus of yore, bulletproof and free of fear!"
2017/10/07 22:29:48
Subject: Re:How powerful did Horus become at the peak of the Heresy?
A look of rage transfigures the Warmaster. He stretches out a hand and a bolt of force leaps forth. The Emperor screams as agony wracks his body. "Feel the true nature of my power then tell me I am deluded," roars Horus, in the voice of an angry god.
Beads of sweat stand out on the Emperor's forehead, he steels himself against the pain. "You are deluded," he says.
Once again Horus gestures and lances of pure poison sear through the Emperor's veins. "I let you come here, old friend, so that you could witness my triumph. Kneel before me and I will spare you. Acknowledged the new master of mankind."
Desperately the Emperor summons his power and lashes out. Lightning flickers between the combatants. The stench of ozone fills the air. The Emperor leaps forward, sword raised. Weapons clash as battle is joined on every level: physical, spiritual, psychic.
Bolts of force flicker as mortal gods clash, balancing the fate of the galaxy on every blow. Runesword and lightning claw ring against each other with a sound like thunder. Energies potent enough to level planets are unleashed.
A backhand buffet from Horus knocks the Emperor through a stone bulkhead. The counterstroke tears a supporting column out of the ceiling as the Warmaster ducks.
In the warp the Emperor hears the Chaos Powers howl as they feed their pawn more power. The Lord of Humanity stands alone against their massed might and knows that he is losing. Somehow he cannot bring his full force to bear on the Warmaster. Horus shows no such restraint.
A lightning claw cuts the Emperor's armour as if it were cloth, sheers through flesh and bone. The Emperor ripostes with a psychic stroke intended to disrupt the Warmaster's nervous system. Horus laughs as he deflects it.
His claws take the Emperor across the throat, opening windpipe and jugular. Another blow severs the tendons on his wrist, causing the sword to drop from nerveless fingers.
Insane laughter echoes round the chamber. Horus breaks several ribs with an almost playful punch. A surge of energy seers the Emperor's face, melting the flesh till it runs, bursting an eyeball, setting his hair alight. The Emperor stifles a whimper, wonders how he can be losing. Blackness threatens to engulf him.
Horus grasps his wrists, splintering bones. Blood pumps from the Emperor's throat. Horus lifts his foe above his head and brings him down across his knee, breaking his spine.
For a second the Emperor knows only darkness then a flare of agony brings him back to consciousness as Horus rips his arm from its socket. The Warmaster howls with bestial triumph.
Suddenly the battering stops. Through his good eye the Emperor sees a solitary Terminator has entered the room. The Marine charges towards the Warmaster, stormbolter blazing. Horus looks at him and laughs. For a moment he stands triumphant, allowing the Marine to see what he has done to his Emperor.
The Emperor knows what is going to happen next, sees the gloating triumph on Horus' face. There is no trace of his friend left there. There is only a daemon driven by insane destructive fury.
Horus turns his burning gaze on the Terminator and the Marine's flesh flakes away to reveal his skeleton, then even that is gone, reduced to dust.
The Emperor sees the trap that has been set for him. He has been restraining himself, trying not to hurt one who had been as a son to him. Now he sees that there is no trace of his trusted comrade left. He knows that he must stop this semblance of his former friend and avenge the fallen Terminator. He must strike one deadly blow. He will get no other chance.
He gathers every particle of his power, focuses it into a mighty bolt of pure force, more coherent than a laser, more destructive than an exploding sun. He aims it as Horus, a lance of power destined for the madman's heart. Horus senses the upsurge of energy and turns to face the Emperor, a look of horror on his face.
The Emperor lets fly. It strikes the Warmaster. Horus screams as destruction rains down on him, twisting and writhing in titanic agony. He strives frantically to counter the Emperor's deathblow but his struggles become more feeble as the lethal energies play over him.
Driven by all the force of his rage and pain and hatred the Emperor wills Horus's death. He senses the forces of Chaos retreat, disengaging themselves from their pawn. As they do so sanity returns to the Warmaster. The Emperor sees realisation of the atrocities he has committed flicker across Horus' face. Tears glisten there.
Horus is free but the Emperor knows he himself is dying and that the Powers of Chaos may once again possess the Warmaster and he will not be there to stop them. He cannot take that risk. Horus must die. Yet for a second, looking into his old friends face, he hesitates, unable to do the deed. Then he thinks of the slaughter that still goes on outside, may go on forever. Resolve hardens within him.
He forces all mercy and compassion from his mind, empties it of all knowledge of friendship and coimraderie and love. His eyes lock with Horus and see understanding there. Then with full cold knowledge of what he is doing the Emperor destroys the Warmaster.
It was clearly more even a combat than you would think. More akin to Magnus and Russ fighting than the Emperor simply swatting Horus aside. Horus is actually pretty damn powerful by this stage, the Emperor only manages to get off the overwhelming killing blow when Horus is momentarily distracted. And even then, it takes time to overcome his Warp defences. It's not like blowing out the candle.
I think it can safely be said that Horus was almost as powerful as the Emperor by that stage. Not quite there, a Sergeant standing next to a Captain. The Emperor was still more powerful. But given the right opportunity, the right opening, Horus could have won. That's why the Emperor was unable to defeat him without killing him. Horus was simply too powerful to defeat without committing and focusing every ounce of his psychic power to the task.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/07 22:31:42
2017/10/07 23:12:45
Subject: Re:How powerful did Horus become at the peak of the Heresy?
A look of rage transfigures the Warmaster. He stretches out a hand and a bolt of force leaps forth. The Emperor screams as agony wracks his body. "Feel the true nature of my power then tell me I am deluded," roars Horus, in the voice of an angry god.
Beads of sweat stand out on the Emperor's forehead, he steels himself against the pain. "You are deluded," he says.
Once again Horus gestures and lances of pure poison sear through the Emperor's veins. "I let you come here, old friend, so that you could witness my triumph. Kneel before me and I will spare you. Acknowledged the new master of mankind."
Desperately the Emperor summons his power and lashes out. Lightning flickers between the combatants. The stench of ozone fills the air. The Emperor leaps forward, sword raised. Weapons clash as battle is joined on every level: physical, spiritual, psychic.
Bolts of force flicker as mortal gods clash, balancing the fate of the galaxy on every blow. Runesword and lightning claw ring against each other with a sound like thunder. Energies potent enough to level planets are unleashed.
A backhand buffet from Horus knocks the Emperor through a stone bulkhead. The counterstroke tears a supporting column out of the ceiling as the Warmaster ducks.
In the warp the Emperor hears the Chaos Powers howl as they feed their pawn more power. The Lord of Humanity stands alone against their massed might and knows that he is losing. Somehow he cannot bring his full force to bear on the Warmaster. Horus shows no such restraint.
A lightning claw cuts the Emperor's armour as if it were cloth, sheers through flesh and bone. The Emperor ripostes with a psychic stroke intended to disrupt the Warmaster's nervous system. Horus laughs as he deflects it.
His claws take the Emperor across the throat, opening windpipe and jugular. Another blow severs the tendons on his wrist, causing the sword to drop from nerveless fingers.
Insane laughter echoes round the chamber. Horus breaks several ribs with an almost playful punch. A surge of energy seers the Emperor's face, melting the flesh till it runs, bursting an eyeball, setting his hair alight. The Emperor stifles a whimper, wonders how he can be losing. Blackness threatens to engulf him.
Horus grasps his wrists, splintering bones. Blood pumps from the Emperor's throat. Horus lifts his foe above his head and brings him down across his knee, breaking his spine.
For a second the Emperor knows only darkness then a flare of agony brings him back to consciousness as Horus rips his arm from its socket. The Warmaster howls with bestial triumph.
Suddenly the battering stops. Through his good eye the Emperor sees a solitary Terminator has entered the room. The Marine charges towards the Warmaster, stormbolter blazing. Horus looks at him and laughs. For a moment he stands triumphant, allowing the Marine to see what he has done to his Emperor.
The Emperor knows what is going to happen next, sees the gloating triumph on Horus' face. There is no trace of his friend left there. There is only a daemon driven by insane destructive fury.
Horus turns his burning gaze on the Terminator and the Marine's flesh flakes away to reveal his skeleton, then even that is gone, reduced to dust.
The Emperor sees the trap that has been set for him. He has been restraining himself, trying not to hurt one who had been as a son to him. Now he sees that there is no trace of his trusted comrade left. He knows that he must stop this semblance of his former friend and avenge the fallen Terminator. He must strike one deadly blow. He will get no other chance.
He gathers every particle of his power, focuses it into a mighty bolt of pure force, more coherent than a laser, more destructive than an exploding sun. He aims it as Horus, a lance of power destined for the madman's heart. Horus senses the upsurge of energy and turns to face the Emperor, a look of horror on his face.
The Emperor lets fly. It strikes the Warmaster. Horus screams as destruction rains down on him, twisting and writhing in titanic agony. He strives frantically to counter the Emperor's deathblow but his struggles become more feeble as the lethal energies play over him.
Driven by all the force of his rage and pain and hatred the Emperor wills Horus's death. He senses the forces of Chaos retreat, disengaging themselves from their pawn. As they do so sanity returns to the Warmaster. The Emperor sees realisation of the atrocities he has committed flicker across Horus' face. Tears glisten there.
Horus is free but the Emperor knows he himself is dying and that the Powers of Chaos may once again possess the Warmaster and he will not be there to stop them. He cannot take that risk. Horus must die. Yet for a second, looking into his old friends face, he hesitates, unable to do the deed. Then he thinks of the slaughter that still goes on outside, may go on forever. Resolve hardens within him.
He forces all mercy and compassion from his mind, empties it of all knowledge of friendship and coimraderie and love. His eyes lock with Horus and see understanding there. Then with full cold knowledge of what he is doing the Emperor destroys the Warmaster.
It was clearly more even a combat than you would think. More akin to Magnus and Russ fighting than the Emperor simply swatting Horus aside. Horus is actually pretty damn powerful by this stage, the Emperor only manages to get off the overwhelming killing blow when Horus is momentarily distracted. And even then, it takes time to overcome his Warp defences. It's not like blowing out the candle.
I think it can safely be said that Horus was almost as powerful as the Emperor by that stage. Not quite there, a Sergeant standing next to a Captain. The Emperor was still more powerful. But given the right opportunity, the right opening, Horus could have won. That's why the Emperor was unable to defeat him without killing him. Horus was simply too powerful to defeat without committing and focusing every ounce of his psychic power to the task.
Like I said, the only reason Horus was able to do the damage he did was because the Emperor was uncharacteristically merciful.
There would have been no combat... and no challenge that Horus could have presented if the Emperor would have been merciless.
Please, do read the above story and comprehend it before responding. If we are only talking about power, Horus would have stood no chance. Unfortunately, it wasn't only a question of power but also of killing intent...
"Be like General Tarsus of yore, bulletproof and free of fear!"
2017/10/07 23:30:13
Subject: Re:How powerful did Horus become at the peak of the Heresy?
Please, do read the above story and comprehend it before responding.
It's not difficult to be pleasant to other posters instead of abruptly brusque. You should try it some time. Not to mention the fact that for somebody berating another for not 'comprehending', you seem to be blissfully unaware that it is possible to have a different interpretation of the written word.
When I read the story I note a few things. Namely, that it takes the utmost concentration of the Emperor's psychic power to kill Horus, and even that had to take him from a side shot and doesn't take effect immediately. 40K is filled with examples of psykers throwing out intensely powerful attacks only to have their concentration disrupted, or being unable to fully focus their entire strength whilst engaged in hand to hand combat. I imagine it would be no different here.
In other words, if the Emperor had come at Horus unawares, or literally levelled the full force of his psychic potential at Horus from outside of striking distance the minute they saw each other, the result would have been the same (minus the injuries to the Emperor). But if Horus had kept on at the Emperor and ignored the Terminator, it is likely that he would have been able to slay the Emperor regardless of his sudden change of heart. Likewise if the terminator had never intervened in the first place to distract Horus from delivering the final blow, or engaging the Emperor in further hand to hand attacks (thus distracting him and preventing him from focusing his full power).
Battlefields are not static things. Had Horus known of the Emperor's ability to incinerate him given the chance and no distractions, he likely would have fallen on the Emperor with his full might and not let up/paused the combat for a second so as to deny his father the opportunity to unleash his power in that way. Sadly, either his battlefield intelligence was lacking, or his faith in his own warp defences overinflated.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2017/10/07 23:33:33
2017/10/07 23:34:29
Subject: How powerful did Horus become at the peak of the Heresy?
(For example, Leman Russ survived when Lion El'Jonson impaled his torso with his power sword.)
Lion's sword is over-rated. Curze damned near choked the Lion to death *after* being impaled with that sword.
Curze was mortally wounded. It took some warp trickery to bring him back to life. There is definitely something different about the Lion Sword. Russ acknowledged that it took his wound far longer to heal then it should have, and Guilliman didn't want it anywhere near the Emperor.
Wrong story. I referring to the one before the Lion ambushed Curze and presumably threw some of his own troops at Curze to weaken him first.
The first story where they met, where Curze tried to tell the Lion something was wrong with his own Legion and then the Lion sucker-stabbed Curze.
It ended with a Dark Angel sacrificing his life so his bitch of a primarch could avoid Curze choking the Lion to death.
Now go get'm boys! Those galaxy-wide multi-dimensional storms of soul energy and emotion are no match for our laser pointers!
Last one over the top gets a visit from the Commissar!
This would be funny if those laser pointers didn't win more often than not.
Chaos is only competent compared to the Imperium sometimes.
Best rush to the End Times before Chaos can be overwhelmed by trillions of pulse rifles.
Go read angels of Caliban, the lion and curze have another fight, curze tries his usual tricks but was out played by the lion who saw it coming, the fight that ensued showed without a shadow of doubt that the lion is magnitudes above curze in the combat department, the beat down was brutal and curze only lived because the lion wanted him to.
2017/10/08 00:16:08
Subject: Re:How powerful did Horus become at the peak of the Heresy?
Please, do read the above story and comprehend it before responding.
It's not difficult to be pleasant to other posters instead of abruptly brusque. You should try it some time. Not to mention the fact that for somebody berating another for not 'comprehending', you seem to be blissfully unaware that it is possible to have a different interpretation of the written word.
I'm sorry if I offended you in any way. I didn't mean to berate you or anyone else.
When I read the story I note a few things. Namely, that it takes the utmost concentration of the Emperor's psychic power to kill Horus, and even that had to take him from a side shot and doesn't take effect immediately. 40K is filled with examples of psykers throwing out intensely powerful attacks only to have their concentration disrupted, or being unable to fully focus their entire strength whilst engaged in hand to hand combat. I imagine it would be no different here.
The Emperor was dying. If that wouldn't disrupt a concenration of a psyker, nothing will. Even if we assume that the normal limits of concenration are an issue to the Emperor, he would have blasted Horus before he could rise his weapon. That is, if he felt no mercy.
In other words, if the Emperor had come at Horus unawares, or literally levelled the full force of his psychic potential at Horus from outside of striking distance the minute they saw each other, the result would have been the same (minus the injuries to the Emperor). But if Horus had kept on at the Emperor and ignored the Terminator, it is likely that he would have been able to slay the Emperor regardless of his sudden change of heart. Likewise if the terminator had never intervened in the first place to distract Horus from delivering the final blow, or engaging the Emperor in further hand to hand attacks (thus distracting him and preventing him from focusing his full power).
I actually do agree. The intervention of *sigh* the Terminator (or actually Ollanius Pius) was the turning point of the fight. Without it, the Emperor would have died. Not because of lack of power but because of lack of resolve. Lack of killing intent. Lack of the will to kill Horus right there and then.
Battlefields are not static things. Had Horus known of the Emperor's ability to incinerate him given the chance and no distractions, he likely would have fallen on the Emperor with his full might and not let up/paused the combat for a second so as to deny his father the opportunity to unleash his power in that way. Sadly, either his battlefield intelligence was lacking, or his faith in his own warp defences overinflated.
The fight was ultimately decided by the Emperor's unwillingness to end his son's life immediately, while Horus didn't return the gesture. If you are fighting, the will to inflict physical harm and ultimately, to kill count a lot.
"Be like General Tarsus of yore, bulletproof and free of fear!"
the Gods achieved what they wanted by crippling the Emperor and no longer had need of their puppet.
nneadwraith wrote:
