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Dionysodorus wrote:
I just did this math for another post, but note that the Catachans doctrine adds very little to the Shadowsword's damage output. Re-rolling 1 die is only worth about an 11% improvement on the result of 3d3, and the Shadowsword will only see a ~6% increase in expected wounds off of this against most targets because it already tends to overkill things. Cadia is better if you're sitting still, but you probably shouldn't be sitting still.

Yes but it is important to note that that 11% improvement in # of shots will likely result in 7+ extra damage. Since each hit does on avearage 7 damage the more shots/hits becomes absouletly critical since at STR16 and -5 AP means it is going do get through.

broxus wrote:

Dionysodorus wrote:
I just did this math for another post, but note that the Catachans doctrine adds very little to the Shadowsword's damage output. Re-rolling 1 die is only worth about an 11% improvement on the result of 3d3, and the Shadowsword will only see a ~6% increase in expected wounds off of this against most targets because it already tends to overkill things. Cadia is better if you're sitting still, but you probably shouldn't be sitting still.

Yes but it is important to note that that 11% improvement in # of shots will likely result in 7+ extra damage. Since each hit does on avearage 7 damage the more shots/hits becomes absouletly critical since at STR16 and -5 AP means it is going do get through.

Against 90+% of targets, that's just overkill.

Meaning you gain nothing.

The shadow sword isn’t the best super heavy, and his list wasn’t running the. He had 3 souped up Baneblades, three Trojans, and a smattering of support chars, mostly psykers

Which is frankly better than three shadow swords anyways, the shadow sword is too pigeonholed into one thing that the tournament meta doesn’t really do, bring a ton of superheavies, verse a ton of infantry

 malamis wrote:

GhostRecon wrote:

Still a minimum of 90pts and one detachment slot to give one SHV a regimental doctrine - so in essence paying 494pts to give one to a Shadowsword? Which one is worth the cost at that point? I'd posit the Valhallan one, probably, since otherwise an opponent only needs to do at least 13 wounds to reduce the effectiveness of your SHV by 33% outright.

Curious how a Shadowsword does against equal points-worth of Stygies VIII Dunecrawlers, though.

One does not take naked superheavies; it's a waste of the phenomenal unit tax. 10 heavy bolters and 4 lascannons is absolutely worth the points on a single, easily buffed model.... so long as you're savy enough to keep it alive.

So with that in mind 630 points of cadian shadowsword with an adjacent 'old grudges' commander would outright kill 1 with the volcano cannon, probably with just one failed save, average 4 wounds on a second with the lascannons and 3.8 wounds with the heavy bolters, factoring in rerolls. If however it could attack after another unit had inflicted one wound on one of them it would be hitting on 4s with the +1 to hit cadian strat.

Telling players to take sponsons on a Shadowsword is terrible advice. Keeping the volcano cannon as cheap as possible is very important. It is such a massive threat on its own it doesn’t need any sponsons. The new Shadowsword only costs 404pts making it a deadly threat that people will focus on while your army is able to punish your enemy. There are multiple ways to make that Shadowsword -1 to hit and once it goes down a level it will start hitting on 5s. If you spread your points out then your remaining points are capable of maneuvering and damaging your opponent as they eye the big guy that wont die due to strategems and psychic abilties.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JNAProductions wrote:

broxus wrote:

Dionysodorus wrote:
I just did this math for another post, but note that the Catachans doctrine adds very little to the Shadowsword's damage output. Re-rolling 1 die is only worth about an 11% improvement on the result of 3d3, and the Shadowsword will only see a ~6% increase in expected wounds off of this against most targets because it already tends to overkill things. Cadia is better if you're sitting still, but you probably shouldn't be sitting still.

Yes but it is important to note that that 11% improvement in # of shots will likely result in 7+ extra damage. Since each hit does on avearage 7 damage the more shots/hits becomes absouletly critical since at STR16 and -5 AP means it is going do get through.

Against 90+% of targets, that's just overkill.

Meaning you gain nothing.

The Shadowswords job is to kill your enemy’s nastiest big model every turn. Overkill is a welcomed insurance policy to ensure no unlucky dice rolls keep something alive. WIth the old rules using only D6 shots I brought down a Warhound with my Shadowsword in the first turn. Good luck keeping anything smaller than that alive after it fires with the new broken 3D3 profile. If someone decides to take an Imperial Knight just say goodbye to it and 25-30% of your lists points turn one.

 NivlacSupreme wrote:

 Scott-S6 wrote:

 NivlacSupreme wrote:
This thread made me want to do a lore accurate Artillery company.

Nine artillery pieces too many artillery pieces?

Nine plus a salamander command, an atlas and a trojan.

Wouldn’t need a Trojan if I was using self propelled artillery, apparently atlasses are pretty rare and they can have command chimeras as well.

It’d probably be all plastic. Maybe some DKoK Crewman and Command staff if I went that direction.

If they weren't self propelled then you'd need a trojan for each one. An artillery company can still use a trojan for ferrying ammunition. You don't want to send a gun to collect ammo. Similarly the attached atlas makes a great deal of sense since SPGs have a nasty habit of getting bogged down in their firing positions during inclement weather.

Yup. Not all factions have access to Superheavies outside Forgeworld. Superhevies should go back to Apocalypse games.

Thanks everyone for the input.

I will try running mixed companies, see if that affects how fun the games are, and maybe spending some points on other support like infantry squads instead of Psykers.

The 40pt decrease in some of them is a blessing in disguise because it lets me bring some real options.

As for which superheavy is best - that is an issue I am happy to chat about but don't particularly care about in my case - fluff dictates what tanks I buy rather than rules usually.

broxus wrote:


Telling players to take sponsons on a Shadowsword is terrible advice. Keeping the volcano cannon as cheap as possible is very important. It is such a massive threat on its own it doesn’t need any sponsons. The new Shadowsword only costs 404pts making it a deadly threat that people will focus on while your army is able to punish your enemy. There are multiple ways to make that Shadowsword -1 to hit and once it goes down a level it will start hitting on 5s. If you spread your points out then your remaining points are capable of maneuvering and damaging your opponent as they eye the big guy that wont die due to strategems and psychic abilties.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

The Shadowswords job is to kill your enemy’s nastiest big model every turn. Overkill is a welcomed insurance policy to ensure no unlucky dice rolls keep something alive. WIth the old rules using only D6 shots I brought down a Warhound with my Shadowsword in the first turn. Good luck keeping anything smaller than that alive after it fires with the new broken 3D3 profile. If someone decides to take an Imperial Knight just say goodbye to it and 25-30% of your lists points turn one.

So... I think loading a Shadowsword with sponsons is a great idea. The tank isn't going to go away very quickly, and it's very efficient at getting both anti-infantry and anti-tank output onto the board.

The tank isn't worthwhile enough on it's own with just the Volcano Cannon. It will kill a tank a turn, but it's at the extreme high end for antitank units. It pays for a lot of overkill, which unless facing a knight or other super-heavy, it doesn't ever need. However, adding 10 heavy bolters and 4 lascannons [or 6 heavy bolters and 2 lascannons], definitely improves it's output and versatility. With 30 shots going downrange a turn, it's also capable of thoroughly trashing a light infantry unit, and the lascannons can harass and help other units bring down another tank.



It's job is absolutely to kill the biggest, nastiest thing the enemy has on the board, which, most of the time, is going to be much smaller than the Shadowsword. The only real good targets I can think of for the thing off the top of my head are Leviathan Dreadnoughts and the Swarmlord.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

broxus wrote:


Telling players to take sponsons on a Shadowsword is terrible advice. Keeping the volcano cannon as cheap as possible is very important. It is such a massive threat on its own it doesn’t need any sponsons. The new Shadowsword only costs 404pts making it a deadly threat that people will focus on while your army is able to punish your enemy. There are multiple ways to make that Shadowsword -1 to hit and once it goes down a level it will start hitting on 5s. If you spread your points out then your remaining points are capable of maneuvering and damaging your opponent as they eye the big guy that wont die due to strategems and psychic abilties.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

The Shadowswords job is to kill your enemy’s nastiest big model every turn. Overkill is a welcomed insurance policy to ensure no unlucky dice rolls keep something alive. WIth the old rules using only D6 shots I brought down a Warhound with my Shadowsword in the first turn. Good luck keeping anything smaller than that alive after it fires with the new broken 3D3 profile. If someone decides to take an Imperial Knight just say goodbye to it and 25-30% of your lists points turn one.

So... I think loading a Shadowsword with sponsons is a great idea. The tank isn't going to go away very quickly, and it's very efficient at getting both anti-infantry and anti-tank output onto the board.

The tank isn't worthwhile enough on it's own with just the Volcano Cannon. It will kill a tank a turn, but it's at the extreme high end for antitank units. It pays for a lot of overkill, which unless facing a knight or other super-heavy, it doesn't ever need. However, adding 10 heavy bolters and 4 lascannons [or 6 heavy bolters and 2 lascannons], definitely improves it's output and versatility. With 30 shots going downrange a turn, it's also capable of thoroughly trashing a light infantry unit, and the lascannons can harass and help other units bring down another tank.



It's job is absolutely to kill the biggest, nastiest thing the enemy has on the board, which, most of the time, is going to be much smaller than the Shadowsword. The only real good targets I can think of for the thing off the top of my head are Leviathan Dreadnoughts and the Swarmlord.

And the concept of a tank that already has something called a “volcano cannon” putting out a wall of rocket propelled grenades as well is hella cool.