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Maybe keep a cheap Guard Batallion (5CP for 180 points is just so good) and make a mixed AdMech Batallion:
- Cawl and Techpriest(for Knight repair)
- 3x5 Graia Troops for deny stratagem
- Priest and Dragoon Stygies
- Robots Mars
Yoda79 wrote: Suzuteo I like your list but I removed guard entirely adding a battalion of Mars with Cawl and Robots. I remove some units add some others but more or less I use the ad mech 6 s for cp cycling . Why cause I trust Cawl with 4 Robots provide an extreme threat my enemies need to deal with . So knight Dragoons priests Cawl Robots all bad ass threats none to be ignored. Now I'm testing how to fit the knight but I'm heading towards Mars battalion stygies vang or out even second batt if allowed from competition rules. Need the CP s to make it work. Something along these lines!!
This list interests me. Let me know what you settle on
Knight Warden [25 PL, 466pts]: Avenger gatling cannon, Heavy flamer, Heavy stubber, Reaper chainsword
++ Total: [118 PL, 1997pts] ++
Needs a bit of tweaking but valid for practise games ! Need to work a bit a list with one battalion and see something close to this with a super heavy +3
I have not added yet details like knight weapons or relics I will make progress when I get home !
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/06/05 15:55:47
So slighty mech related and also slightly knight related, and actually fluffyish
Current new list thoughts
Stygis bat
Enginseer
Enginseer
5 man ranger squad x3
Stygis bat
Enginseer
Enginseer
5 man ranger squad x3
House Raven knight lance
Knight Gallant with 2+ to move/charge/advance WL and the 2+ armor relic and a top hat stormspear
Knight Castellan with 4 shoulder cannons and 2 missles, Cawls Wrath Relic plasma and 4++ wl trait
Knight Crusader with battle cannon, relic avenger, stormspear hat and either the ignore ap 1 WL trait or the 1cp and 1 reroll or the wounds rolls of 6s do mortal wounds
should be slightly under 2k, 16 command points to start and either 10 or 11 to use in game once all the wl traits/relics are bought
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/05 16:14:07
If the rules support it, I think the best knight to run along with mechanicus would actually be the castellon.
Superheavy Auxiliary (so no household bonus, but it still has RAVEN for strategem purposes ... still gets strategems but no automatic character). 1x RAVEN (mechanicus) Castellon - spend 1CP to make it a character with exalted court and give it the 2+ armor WLT (then put it behind a big piece of terrain for 50% cover) xor give it 4++ if terrain sucks, spend another 1CP for Cawl's wrath.
Every turn spend 2CP for the RAVEN strategem to give reroll 1s to everything. Now that d6 shots, 2d6 shots, 3+ to hit, 1 damage rolls, wound rolls of 1 ... EVERYTHING ... get the rerolls. That is one shooty boi. LIke damn. If he takes damage, 1CP to ignore the damage table. Fix him for 1 health a turn every turn with your STYGIES detachment.
EDIT: either that or do the same thing with 1 HAWKSHROUD valiant. You don't need the household ignore damage table bonus for something that uses a flamer. Just put him in the middle and run him behind your dragoons. As soon as they get charged, burn the xenos down.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/05 16:49:52
EDIT: either that or do the same thing with 1 HAWKSHROUD valiant. You don't need the household ignore damage table bonus for something that uses a flamer. Just put him in the middle and run him behind your dragoons. As soon as they get charged, burn the xenos down.
I keep flip flopping on which dominus I want. My heart says valiant but my head says castellan.
Knight Warden [25 PL, 466pts]: Avenger gatling cannon, Heavy flamer, Heavy stubber, Reaper chainsword
++ Total: [118 PL, 1997pts] ++
Needs a bit of tweaking but valid for practise games ! Need to work a bit a list with one battalion and see something close to this with a super heavy +3
I have not added yet details like knight weapons or relics I will make progress when I get home !
That list looks solid, no doubt. I am still not sold on the warden but I do think we need 2 Battalions. Those damn CP are just so important, good thing we got the monitor. I even build a list with a Custodes Battalion, that is how needed those CP are...this and I just wanted to add my beloved shieldcaptains And it hurts so much to see 3 of those damn Tech Priest Enginseers...man how great it would be if either destroyers or breachers could actually work in some way so we could fill a second batallion not just with a lot more chaff -.-
Yeah I can't decide on either a Valiant or a Castellon. I have 3 questoris chassis fully magnetized up so I am going to run them for a while. I can't possibly buy until I have the codex in hand to hard confirm the households for single knights rule. From Geoff it looks like you only get tradition bonuses if you have a knight LANCE, not just a superheavy auxilliary detachment.
In my mind, the solo castellon does the job of Cawl + dakkabots, and my admech detachment would be a STYGIES detachment. The RAVEN (but no bonus) castellon has reroll 1s of everything and shoots all kinds of firepower at hard targets. The rest of the army plays the board while the castellon shoots and gets shot at (T8 with a 4++ is pretty reasonable compared to my dakkabots T7 with 4++/5++).
The valiant does valiant things. You run it up the board on a suicide bomb mission while the rest of your army play the game. I think STYGIES does well here too. If your dragoons get charged, the valiant can overwatch for them.
Engi can repair the knight 4 wounds a turn. Depending on opponent I might pour more CP into the knight, or more CP into the captains. TPD and the icarus move around the board picking on easy fly targets. If I get first turn then all the CP goes into the dragoons and smash captain. If I go second, then points go into keeping the castellon up.
EDIT2: something to note ... enginseers can't repair questor IMPERIALIS knights. And TRAITORS_PYRE is IMPERIALIS only. So a Valiant will never be that great an ally to an admech detachment. Because CAWLS_WRATH is questor MECHANICUS only, castellons and admech will always be better friends.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2018/06/05 19:40:50
Yeah I think I am gonna go with a kind of fluffy approach on this, I am of out of ideas at this moment and need to see how the knight actually performs on the battlefield.
I will try out a Gallant with Ion Bulwark and 5++ in melee, House Taranis and I think this will go with a Stygies Brigade.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/05 20:17:07
I feel you mate, but I want to burn things. The relic the Imperium side get is just to good to miss out on.
But I think overall the Mechanicus side does win, regarding strats, relics etc.
Okay, I sat down and did the math (this is my first time really doing this, so I suspect I've made some errors). I wanted to compare the Helverin's autocannons to the Icarus Array Dunecrawlers, both with and without Cawl.
Wounds/Turn: Icarus Array V Helverin
GEQ : 3.89 V 3.8
MEQ : 2.06 V 1.8
Primaris : 2.95 V 3.6
TEQ : 2.13 V 2.4
Rhino : 2.28 V 4
Landraider : 1.25 V 1.8
Stormraven : 3.05 V 3
Custodes Bikers : 2.79 V 3.56
Raider : 2.26 V 5.4
Wounds/Turn: Icarus Array (With re-rolls to hit) V Helverin
GEQ : 5.83 V 3.8
MEQ : 3.08 V 1.8
Primaris : 4.43 V 3.6
TEQ : 3.19 V 2.4
Rhino : 3.43 V 4
Landraider : 1.88 V 1.8
Stormraven : 4.06 V 3
Custodes Bikers : 2.99 V 3.56
Raider : 6.09 V 5.4
In summary, if you're not running Cawl, the Helverin looks to outperform Dunecrawlers in most cases on a wound/turn basis. If you did the same look at the Neutron Laser, the Helverin comes out ahead in either case against all targets that aren't landraiders. I'm sure someone could adjust these for the relative points difference between the models or other factors though. Helverins could be a effective component of competitive AdMech Soup in the future.
In summary, if you're not running Cawl, the Helverin looks to outperform Dunecrawlers in most cases on a wound/turn basis. If you did the same look at the Neutron Laser, the Helverin comes out ahead in either case against all targets that aren't landraiders. I'm sure someone could adjust these for the relative points difference between the models or other factors though. Helverins could be a effective component of competitive AdMech Soup in the future.
Just divide your results by the point value of the units to make them comparable (you could multiply the following result with 100 to get a more "readable" number)
Battalion ( Mars prolly)
Vanguard or outrider (stygies prolly)
Super heavy (2*1 armiger's 1*knight)
That's a total of 12 cp with 6s recycling. Closest to ad mech pure but with a knight to get some cc durability . Trying to have best ad mech while the knights supplement the role of 2* Icarus I used to have while the big knight finally give us melle options.
Not trying to reinvent the wheel here. Taking a simple robots dragns Icarus list and adding the knight while I retain high cp, CP recycling and cc options. If the super heavy +3 armiger's +knight is valid seems like my competitive list!
Why cause 2* battlions is nice to practise games tons of CP but personally I consider no detachment restrictions a fun tour. Competitive wise single use of detachments is essential for sane games. Practise sure extreme lists sure but we need to keep this game about choises not default options. It's how you use your resources eventually to win a battle not spend with out reason.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/06/05 22:56:26
Not trying reinvent the wheel here. Taking a simple robots dragns Icarus list and adding the knight while I retain high cp, CP recycling and cc options. If the super heavy +3 armiger's +knight is valid seems like my competitive list!
Beware that your superheavy detachment won't give you household traditions, when you decide to take the 3CP.
Regis Terzieff-Godefroy wrote: Okay, I sat down and did the math (this is my first time really doing this, so I suspect I've made some errors). I wanted to compare the Helverin's autocannons to the Icarus Array Dunecrawlers, both with and without Cawl.
Wounds/Turn: Icarus Array V Helverin GEQ : 3.89 V 3.8 MEQ : 2.06 V 1.8 Primaris : 2.95 V 3.6 TEQ : 2.13 V 2.4 Rhino : 2.28 V 4 Landraider : 1.25 V 1.8 Stormraven : 3.05 V 3 Custodes Bikers : 2.79 V 3.56 Raider : 2.26 V 5.4
Wounds/Turn: Icarus Array (With re-rolls to hit) V Helverin GEQ : 5.83 V 3.8 MEQ : 3.08 V 1.8 Primaris : 4.43 V 3.6 TEQ : 3.19 V 2.4 Rhino : 3.43 V 4 Landraider : 1.88 V 1.8 Stormraven : 4.06 V 3 Custodes Bikers : 2.99 V 3.56 Raider : 6.09 V 5.4
In summary, if you're not running Cawl, the Helverin looks to outperform Dunecrawlers in most cases on a wound/turn basis. If you did the same look at the Neutron Laser, the Helverin comes out ahead in either case against all targets that aren't landraiders. I'm sure someone could adjust these for the relative points difference between the models or other factors though. Helverins could be a effective component of competitive AdMech Soup in the future.
For my own benefit, I did a comparison between Icarus crawlers near a TPD, and Helverins near a Preceptor:
Spoiler:
This compares the two with and without stratagem use on optimal targets. I included the stubber on both the Dunecrawler and Helverin. I must be missing something because the Helverins seem very niche. Is there a juicy target for them that I didn't include? Is my math and/or methodology broken?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/09 20:23:58
Nobody thinking of running two Dominus class? I am thinking double Valiant or one Valiant and one Castallen is pretty good. You can run it in a lance with another normal knight. Its not cheap, but a Valiant or Castallen is only marginally more expensive than a normal knight, yet has 4 more HP and brings a heck of a lot more firepower into the picture compared to a normal knight.
I am even thinking of scrimping on that one normal knight (get a pure melee Gallant) so that I can afford the points for two Dominus classes.
Yoda79 wrote: Suzuteo I like your list but I removed guard entirely adding a battalion of Mars with Cawl and Robots. I remove some units add some others but more or less I use the ad mech 6 s for cp cycling . Why cause I trust Cawl with 4 Robots provide an extreme threat my enemies need to deal with . So knight Dragoons priests Cawl Robots all bad ass threats none to be ignored. Now I'm testing how to fit the knight but I'm heading towards Mars battalion stygies vang or out even second batt if allowed from competition rules. Need the CP s to make it work. Something along these lines!!
Unfortunately, I don't think that works even with two Battalions. 6+/6+ is not enough CP recycling; I even wish I had the extra 5+ from Vitae. Anyhow, you won't have enough CP to run your Kastelans (1 to set up; 2 per turn), Dragoons (1 per turn), Electro-Priests (3 per turn), and Knight (2 at pre-deploy, 1 to Full Tilt, 4 per turn). Furthermore, I am not sure if Cawl is worth it if you're only running 4 Kastelans and no Crawlers or anything else.
lash92 wrote: Maybe keep a cheap Guard Batallion (5CP for 180 points is just so good) and make a mixed AdMech Batallion:
- Cawl and Techpriest(for Knight repair)
- 3x5 Graia Troops for deny stratagem
- Priest and Dragoon Stygies
- Robots Mars
I considered this too. It's actually a really neat idea, but as I mentioned before, it is hard to fit 5-6 Kastelans in. Still keeping it in the back of my mind though.
Wulfey wrote: If the rules support it, I think the best knight to run along with mechanicus would actually be the castellon.
Superheavy Auxiliary (so no household bonus, but it still has RAVEN for strategem purposes ... still gets strategems but no automatic character).
1x RAVEN (mechanicus) Castellon - spend 1CP to make it a character with exalted court and give it the 2+ armor WLT (then put it behind a big piece of terrain for 50% cover) xor give it 4++ if terrain sucks, spend another 1CP for Cawl's wrath.
Every turn spend 2CP for the RAVEN strategem to give reroll 1s to everything. Now that d6 shots, 2d6 shots, 3+ to hit, 1 damage rolls, wound rolls of 1 ... EVERYTHING ... get the rerolls. That is one shooty boi. LIke damn. If he takes damage, 1CP to ignore the damage table. Fix him for 1 health a turn every turn with your STYGIES detachment.
Wulfey wrote: Yeah I can't decide on either a Valiant or a Castellon. I have 3 questoris chassis fully magnetized up so I am going to run them for a while. I can't possibly buy until I have the codex in hand to hard confirm the households for single knights rule. From Geoff it looks like you only get tradition bonuses if you have a knight LANCE, not just a superheavy auxilliary detachment.
Castellan is the best Dominus choice for AdMech, but I have concerns about its durability and the risk that comes with investing so heavily into one model.
The Raven stratagem is super solid. Makes everything so much more reliable.
If Household Traditions require a Lance, it is not in the Knight Lance rule. At least not the online version. It might be in the Household Traditions section though.
Yoda79 wrote: What I m trying is to get an army list like
Battalion ( Mars prolly)
Vanguard or outrider (stygies prolly)
Super heavy (2*1 armiger's 1*knight)
That's a total of 12 cp with 6s recycling. Closest to ad mech pure but with a knight to get some cc durability . Trying to have best ad mech while the knights supplement the role of 2* Icarus I used to have while the big knight finally give us melle options.
Not trying to reinvent the wheel here. Taking a simple robots dragns Icarus list and adding the knight while I retain high cp, CP recycling and cc options. If the super heavy +3 armiger's +knight is valid seems like my competitive list!
Why cause 2* battlions is nice to practise games tons of CP but personally I consider no detachment restrictions a fun tour. Competitive wise single use of detachments is essential for sane games. Practise sure extreme lists sure but we need to keep this game about choises not default options. It's how you use your resources eventually to win a battle not spend with out reason.
you dont get your CP for the SHD. You need three big knights for that. Which sucks.
axisofentropy wrote: I think all Knight Detachments get Household Traditions. You only need a Knight Lance to get a free Character and the +3 CP.
So you think it works not like the leaked page from the codex shows? You have insight information that GW is going to release errata right away saying ignore that part?
tneva82 wrote: It's in page detailing all the benefits imperial knight detachments(and then excludes auxiliary) gets. So bit over kniggt lance paragraph
Do you have a source? I would very much like to know.
tneva82 wrote: It's in page detailing all the benefits imperial knight detachments(and then excludes auxiliary) gets. So bit over kniggt lance paragraph
Do you have a source? I would very much like to know.
That page lists all the benefits knight detachments gets including traditions. Note how that imperial knight detachment then specifically excludes auxiliary.
Suzuteo wrote:
Castellan is the best Dominus choice for AdMech, but I have concerns about its durability and the risk that comes with investing so heavily into one model.
The Raven stratagem is super solid. Makes everything so much more reliable.
The one problem is that rotating it shields is 3CP instead of 1, so you are required to have 2 Batallions to support this imo. But before that we were playing with units of 6 Robots, thats pretty much also the defintion of all eggs in on basket xD
Suzuteo wrote:
tneva82 wrote: It's in page detailing all the benefits imperial knight detachments(and then excludes auxiliary) gets. So bit over kniggt lance paragraph
Do you have a source? I would very much like to know.
It says: "Imperial Knight Detachments (excluding Super Heavy Aux" gain the following abilites" and than it lists the Lance, Household Traditions and Freeblade rules.
So it´s unfortunaly pretty clear imo...
It says: "Imperial Knight Detachments (excluding Super Heavy Aux" gain the following abilites" and than it lists the Lance, Household Traditions and Freeblade rules.
So it´s unfortunaly pretty clear imo...
ha? so Freeblades taken in an Super Heavy Aux dont get Qualities and Burdens? oO
But at least we get the stratagems.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/06 09:32:01
Suzuteo wrote: Wow. So no Freeblade auxiliaries either? That's super unfluffy.
Anyhow, we still get stratagems, and the generic WLTs and relics are still the best.
Sigh. That Raven tradition was something though.
Yeah I was a bit sad last night when I realised my House Taranis Knight Crusader can't have his 6+ FNP unless I go and buy a box of 2 Helverins or Warglaives.
But... as far as I can tell you can still get access to the stratagems from a Super Heavy Aux Detachment... so you can...
Pregame
1 CP to make it a character and give a warlord trait
1 CP to buy a relic (Endless Fury)
Midgame
1 CP for Knight of the Cog - perhaps every turn
1 CP for Machine Spirit Resurgent - perhaps twice in a game
2 CP for Our Darkest Hour to respawn the knight after it dies
Quite CP expensive but should be ok. All you lose is the 6+ FNP so it's not a disaster.
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