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Suzuteo wrote: Don't get me wrong. They are quite good. But we just don't have the sort of charge bonuses for our infantry to make them reliable. We can do shooting, but 9x Carbine + 3x Plasma Caliver or 12x Hoplite, typically with Graia dogma for durability and maximum anti-Psyker annoyance, is the upper limit on the amount of damage output we can use with the Drills. For everything else, going Lucius is better.
That's why I'm leaning towards dual Battalion of Lucius camping and Graia up front.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
I would say yes. He improves the shooting of 3x Crawlers by almost 60 points, plus he has a better body for Heroic Intervention, and the Canticle reroll.
Suzuteo wrote: Don't get me wrong. They are quite good. But we just don't have the sort of charge bonuses for our infantry to make them reliable. We can do shooting, but 9x Carbine + 3x Plasma Caliver or 12x Hoplite, typically with Graia dogma for durability and maximum anti-Psyker annoyance, is the upper limit on the amount of damage output we can use with the Drills. For everything else, going Lucius is better.
I wondered about pairing eisenhorn with 11 fulgurites in a drill, pop terrify to ignore overwatch and have him summon his mini-daemon prince, has some nice synergy with other psyker powers as well.
Rinion wrote: I've been working on a list idea! You only start the game with 9CP usable but that was enough most of the time.
The idea is that with Metallicas warlord trait you can leave combat and still shoot, the Dakkabots and Kataphron have an absolutely huge footprint and traditionally the weakness with gunlines is that if anything gets to melee you automatically lose 500pts per unit. The new stratagem lets you get a big threat range on the Incendine Combustors and makes for very deadly overwatch, after which the survivors can leave and shoot again.
I could tag the Kataphrons as Ryza as they would do 50% more damage but 9x 60mm bases would be hard to screen, and expecting Orks and GSC to be in melee rather quickly. Custodes bikes, rhino rush etc. Any dedicated melee unit will probably crush them but they'll likely have 4++ and at 3w each they can still live!
The Bunker is there to clown-car all 9 Kataphron and a Dominus inside of in case you lose turn 1. Its so far proved valuable vs heavy gunlines who have to go through it first. It can br dropped for another basic batallion though for 5 more CP and bodies, or drop some screen for a 3rd Dunecrawler.
So I like the bunker clown car (and am not personally doing it because I don't own a bunker and prefer to run models I actually have). But if you are going to commit to the clown car, you might as well be RYZA. RYZA plasmaphrons are like 2x the damage of any other plasmaphrons with the strategem. We went over the math a few pages back. +1 to wound and +1 to damage is a seriously a 100% increase to actual damage on Imperial Knights.
Hmm admech / castellan / guard is catching on faster than I thought. Also the infiltrators are looking good. I got 20 but I don't think I need any more. I want to know how his Arquebuses did.
Wulfey wrote: Hmm admech / castellan / guard is catching on faster than I thought. Also the infiltrators are looking good. I got 20 but I don't think I need any more. I want to know how his Arquebuses did.
At 15 a pop they probably did really well. 30-45 points to keep a squad of Rangers always engaged is a stellar thing. I haven't been happier and this is what I wanted out of their 7th edition incarnation.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
List seems par for the course. Guard with Mortars for screening and removing Drones, Grotz, Reapers, etc.
Surprised he went for Arquebus Rangers + Dragoons instead of Vanguard + Kataphrons though. Arquebus has good math against Eldar HQs, but Vanguard can push the range of that Abhor into their deployment, plus you have the Servitors and mixed detachment already for the Kataphrons, so why not? And Dragoons just get chewed up or outmanoeuvred in some matchups; he probably used them to screen early on and then move out later though.
Not using Guard WLT+Relic is also weird to me, though Necromechanic is definitely nice for repairing your Knight.
Anyhow, if I do incorporate a Knight down the road, I would go for a Styrix.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/10 02:32:31
I've been having good luck with the arquebuses for what it's worth. Opponents absolutely hate them. Nobody is used to snipers that can actually hurt things so usually you'll see them put a volley into a character and then the opponent gets super paranoid about them. Plus they can still hunt light to mid vehicles which is nice. Two for 65pts and 3 ablative wounds feels really good, heck of a lot better than when they were 85.
I'm not entirely sure how much I'd rely on them to actually kill characters until you commit to them, I kind of feel 6 arquebuses sprinkled across your deployment in 3 min sized squads would do well. I'm painting up 3 more and plan on testing them more in games, as 2 definitely isn't enough to do much even in small games. My area has a lot of character dreadnoughts, daemon princes, and wolf Lord/bike captains so I've found them useful to soften these characters up a bit before they hit your lines, or finishing them off after they take a few wounds in the initial assault.
'I've played Guard for years, and the best piece of advice is to always utilize the Guard's best special rule: "we roll more dice than you" ' - stormleader
"Sector Imperialis: 25mm and 40mm Round Bases (40+20) 26€ (Including 32 skulls for basing) " GW design philosophy in a nutshell
I had the successful games with 2x 2 TA vs Tau, Eldars and IG. Tau was fielding lots of markerlights in a form of characters. A single squad of snipers even managed to erase Ethereal in a volley, so there's some worth to take out of them. Seers and any T3 chars were melting away as well (Yvraine might have needed 2 turns though, can't recall exact values now). If I had additional 2 snipers, I'd field 6 of them.
List seems par for the course. Guard with Mortars for screening and removing Drones, Grotz, Reapers, etc.
Surprised he went for Arquebus Rangers + Dragoons instead of Vanguard + Kataphrons though. Arquebus has good math against Eldar HQs, but Vanguard can push the range of that Abhor into their deployment, plus you have the Servitors and mixed detachment already for the Kataphrons, so why not? And Dragoons just get chewed up or outmanoeuvred in some matchups; he probably used them to screen early on and then move out later though.
Not using Guard WLT+Relic is also weird to me, though Necromechanic is definitely nice for repairing your Knight.
Anyhow, if I do incorporate a Knight down the road, I would go for a Styrix.
Maybe because he would get CP starved if he also went for Kataphrons?
He starts the list with 10-11 CP (depends on if he infiltrates the dragoons or not).
- 3 CP for Raven strat
- 3 CP if he needs to rotate his shields
- 2 CP for WoM
And he is nearly out ^^
The other thing to remember is while we are rank 7 in most winning we are not on the board for most played so proportionately we are punching much higher
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/10 11:09:06
lash92 wrote: Maybe because he would get CP starved if he also went for Kataphrons?
He starts the list with 10-11 CP (depends on if he infiltrates the dragoons or not).
- 3 CP for Raven strat
- 3 CP if he needs to rotate his shields
- 2 CP for WoM
And he is nearly out ^^
Well, Dragoons also eat 1 CP per charge. But yeah, this list has low CP to support a Raven Castellan. I still hold that Krast Styrix is our best solo Knight. Cheaper in points, only needs to consume 1 CP per turn for the shields, has a more versatile mix of weapons (Volkite Chieorovile is almost as efficient as Volcano Lance against Knights thanks to the Krast WLT+relic), and it is much easier to keep repaired.
lash92 wrote: Maybe because he would get CP starved if he also went for Kataphrons?
He starts the list with 10-11 CP (depends on if he infiltrates the dragoons or not).
- 3 CP for Raven strat
- 3 CP if he needs to rotate his shields
- 2 CP for WoM
And he is nearly out ^^
Well, Dragoons also eat 1 CP per charge. But yeah, this list has low CP to support a Raven Castellan. I still hold that Krast Styrix is our best solo Knight. Cheaper in points, only needs to consume 1 CP per turn for the shields, has a more versatile mix of weapons (Volkite Chieorovile is almost as efficient as Volcano Lance against Knights thanks to the Krast WLT+relic), and it is much easier to keep repaired.
Can you explain how the Styrix Krast thing works? I thought that in an Aux Super heavy detachment we can't give the knight a character/WLT or relic? I read the Krast stuff again and it only works with the fight hits? not shooting or have I completely misunderstood all that? Unfortunately I've went with Taranis for my lone styrix for a tournament this weekend since I figure the extra chance to ignore a wound would help it stay alive longer but next time it will be Krast given all I've read here
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/10 11:38:53
2500+ pts of Ad Mech
2000+ pts of Deathwatch
2000+ pts of Skaven
lash92 wrote: Maybe because he would get CP starved if he also went for Kataphrons?
He starts the list with 10-11 CP (depends on if he infiltrates the dragoons or not).
- 3 CP for Raven strat
- 3 CP if he needs to rotate his shields
- 2 CP for WoM
And he is nearly out ^^
Well, Dragoons also eat 1 CP per charge. But yeah, this list has low CP to support a Raven Castellan. I still hold that Krast Styrix is our best solo Knight. Cheaper in points, only needs to consume 1 CP per turn for the shields, has a more versatile mix of weapons (Volkite Chieorovile is almost as efficient as Volcano Lance against Knights thanks to the Krast WLT+relic), and it is much easier to keep repaired.
Can you explain how the Styrix Krast thing works? I thought that in an Aux Super heavy detachment we can't give the knight a character/WLT or relic? I read the Krast stuff again and it only works with the fight hits? not shooting or have I completely misunderstood all that? Unfortunately I've went with Taranis for my lone styrix for a tournament this weekend since I figure the extra chance to ignore a wound would help it stay alive longer but next time it will be Krast given all I've read here
Stratagem for a warlord trait and stratagem for the relic.
Ah ok, Yep, I misunderstood that, I thought about using the strategems but then read the bits about knight lances and that clearly threw me off how it was meant to work.
2500+ pts of Ad Mech
2000+ pts of Deathwatch
2000+ pts of Skaven
House Krast Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment - 500
Lord of War - 500 1x Knight Styrix - Volkite Chierovile, Hekaton Siege Claw, Twin Rad-cleanser, Graviton Crusher, Warlord: First Knight (-1 CP), Relic: The Headsman's Mark (-1 CP)
Yeah, it's a mess. But you should never, ever make your Knight your Warlord because you can pay 1 CP to make it a character and give it one. And while you're at it, give it a relic for 1 CP.
Suzuteo wrote:Yeah, it's a mess. But you should never, ever make your Knight your Warlord because you can pay 1 CP to make it a character and give it one. And while you're at it, give it a relic for 1 CP.
Well, unless you really want to give a Cerastus Knight (or Omnissiah forbid, an Armiger) a relic or warlord trait without having another Knight as warlord, as those stratagems only work for Dominus and Questoris class knights. So e.g. if you want an Atrapos with the 2+ armour save relic, it either has to be your warlord or another Knight has to be your warlord.
lash92 wrote:Dont get household traditions in a Super Heavy aux, right?
Yeah, only Super Heavy detachments get household traditions.
So I like the bunker clown car (and am not personally doing it because I don't own a bunker and prefer to run models I actually have). But if you are going to commit to the clown car, you might as well be RYZA. RYZA plasmaphrons are like 2x the damage of any other plasmaphrons with the strategem. We went over the math a few pages back. +1 to wound and +1 to damage is a seriously a 100% increase to actual damage on Imperial Knights.
yeah, making the Servitor Maniple a mix of Ryza and Graia infantry with Agripinaa servitors is probably the best, the damage output of Ryza is crazy, but worried about melee armies getting them stuck never shooting again! Playing some games with it tonight,
Another option is 3x Double Lascannon Ironstriders instead of the two dunecrawlers, much squishier but more damage output on average, and can hit on 1+ for the unit of 3. Or Icarus arrays. Dunecrawlers are tough and huge though, can sacrifice them in front/side of the Ryza Kataphrons to block
lash92 wrote:Dont get household traditions in a Super Heavy aux, right?
Yeah, only Super Heavy detachments get household traditions.
I got that wrong too then as well haha guess I'm really running my Styrix pretty much just as is then, I'm taking 2 Stygies 8 battalions so I'll have plenty of CP to keep the rotate ion shields and maybe Knight of the Cog every turn. Something to remember for next time.
2500+ pts of Ad Mech
2000+ pts of Deathwatch
2000+ pts of Skaven
Rinion wrote: yeah, making the Servitor Maniple a mix of Ryza and Graia infantry with Agripinaa servitors is probably the best, the damage output of Ryza is crazy, but worried about melee armies getting them stuck never shooting again! Playing some games with it tonight,
Another option is 3x Double Lascannon Ironstriders instead of the two dunecrawlers, much squishier but more damage output on average, and can hit on 1+ for the unit of 3. Or Icarus arrays. Dunecrawlers are tough and huge though, can sacrifice them in front/side of the Ryza Kataphrons to block
Ryzaphrons are great. Only headache is keeping them alive against certain armies. Magic bunker ITC rules are helpful though.
I actually prefer Graia Servitors, but I guess Agripinaa is alright too.
Before CA 2018, they were comparable. Now, definitely take Icarus Crawlers. They can shoot 2+ without penalty and without stratagem, got a great body and base, and also have the added benefit of being able to split fire.
lash92 wrote:Dont get household traditions in a Super Heavy aux, right?
Yeah, only Super Heavy detachments get household traditions.
I got that wrong too then as well haha guess I'm really running my Styrix pretty much just as is then, I'm taking 2 Stygies 8 battalions so I'll have plenty of CP to keep the rotate ion shields and maybe Knight of the Cog every turn. Something to remember for next time.
Yeah, the Tradition is superfluous for Krast.
Why two Stygies? Why not mix the second detachment to get access to Graia and Mars stratagems (especially Infiltrators)? Maybe even Ryzaphrons? (The reason why you would use Styrix over Castellan is that unlike Guard, you have some great but CP-hungry shooting options. This means your Knight is a complementary threat rather than something your army is defending at all costs.)
House Krast Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment - 500
Lord of War - 500 1x Knight Styrix - Volkite Chierovile, Hekaton Siege Claw, Twin Rad-cleanser, Graviton Crusher, Warlord: First Knight (-1 CP), Relic: The Headsman's Mark (-1 CP)
Total: 1996 points 14 CP (-5)
More I look at it, the more I appreciate it. The Dragoons actually make a good wall with the Knight as they move down the field together. Mask gives them bonuses regardless of Forge World. Still vulnerable though. Not sure if it's the best option. Haha.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2019/01/10 16:34:01
Wulfey wrote: After much sturm and drang, I have settled on a list that I am at least running next weekend at at least one RTT. I think this is my LVO list. My gaming group guys have been backing me up on this as plausible. It isn't like Nick's 50 priest and 3 drills and 1x6 ballistari list, but I am a soup player so I am going cross codex for as much power as I can.
MARS battalion
Cawl + Enginseer (WLT either 6+/6+ or +1 to repair and reroll in fight phase relic)
2x10 Infiltrators
3x5 rangers
3x1 Icarus Onagers
2000 points after various bolters on some models. 11CP after strategem spends. Sometimes 10CP if i put Kurov's onto the company commander.
Versus Lootas the castellan can go (ignore -1 / 2+ armor).
Versus another castellan I can heal mine.
Versus eldar .. well ... I still like a castellan over the dakkabots.
The icarus are really cheap now and are almost helverins, but repairable and more accurate.
Unlike a normal admech list, this one has 60 catachans.
And InControl mentioned me by name in a podcast as running 30 infiltrators, so whatever I bring needs at least the 20 I have.
If you ca. Squeeze in a techpriest I to the ig detachment. He has the forgeworld keyword so you can gratis him for psychic defense.
Best Painted (2015 Adepticon 40k Champs)
They Shall Know Fear - Adepticon 40k TT Champion (2012 & 2013) & 40k TT Best Sport (2014), 40k TT Best Tactician (2015 & 2016)
It's more just working with what I have, I really like the -1 to hit and I am building more destroyers for the special detachment. At present I don't have enough of what you've suggested to run them optimally. My planned list is, its a 1750pt tournament so there is a bit of squeezing in maybe less than usual optimal number of models for say the dragoons etc:
I prefer to run just admech and don't have any guard but do plan to get some more enginseers as well to make even cheaper battalions plus using the strats for the krast stuff. Mixed forge world does seem like a winner.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/10 18:06:11
2500+ pts of Ad Mech
2000+ pts of Deathwatch
2000+ pts of Skaven
