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So there are two questions:
1) Are Dakkabots competitive?
2) Are Dakkabots our most competitive option?
The answer to #1 is no. But that's because AdMech in general is not competitive in comparison to Eldar Soup and Imperium Soup. It has nothing to do with points and everything to do with rules. Soulburst is OP. Guardsmen are OP; Knights are excellent and present structural advantages as well.
The answer to #2 is yes. The highest ranked AdMech lists at BAO and SCO were Cawlstar lists. It's usually Cawlstar w/ 2x Icarus Crawlers + Loyal 32 + Knight.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/30 11:41:02
I think admech are competative since CA18 however its about looking at what has improved. The data is in on bots they didnt change - kataphrons by comparison changed a lot and need reevaluateing.
If you look at the preliminary LVO list data the increase in admech use has certainly surprised some people but when you drop 3-400 pts its going to have an impact
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/30 13:04:36
U02dah4 wrote: I think admech are competative since CA18 however its about looking at what has improved. The data is in on bots they didnt change - kataphrons by comparison changed a lot and need reevaluateing.
If you look at the preliminary LVO list data the increase in admech use has certainly surprised some people but when you drop 3-400 pts its going to have an impact
Ooh, do you have a link to the lists? I haven’t seen them yet
The new GSC faction rules are a joke. Theyre pretty much 2 or 3 of other army rules rolled into one. Or theyre rules everyone else pays CP or has to field a unit in a rstricted area to take advantage of it. Not GSC they get all that gak for free -_-
Yeah what the hell is up with all the love they are showering on GSC? Can we get new AdMech, Grey Knight, and Necron codexes with this degree of attention too?
Honestly, in the GSC and Drukhari matchups, I am perfectly fine with them countering my Wrath of Mars. That is possibly 4 less Fire and Fade or some combat shenanigans to deal with.
Suzuteo wrote: Honestly, in the GSC and Drukhari matchups, I am perfectly fine with them countering my Wrath of Mars. That is possibly 4 less Fire and Fade or some combat shenanigans to deal with.
Hmmm notice the GSC vect strat is only 3cp instead of 4
Suzuteo wrote: Honestly, in the GSC and Drukhari matchups, I am perfectly fine with them countering my Wrath of Mars. That is possibly 4 less Fire and Fade or some combat shenanigans to deal with.
Hmmm notice the GSC vect strat is only 3cp instead of 4
They probably wrote the GSC Codex before the last FAQ too if recent releases are any indication, so the last balance changes don't affect the new Codex <.<.
And because the Codex releases so soon before the next FAQ they probably won't be doing anything about it until april, won't they ^^.
Sigh, I really wish the rules team would go back to the continuous balance updates and FAQ we had every few weeks back in 2017. But too bad that it seems like it was too much effort for too many players to check the FAQ website once a month, so we are now stuck with the current format. Still better than what we had before 8th, but a pretty massive step down from the initial months (remember how quick Stormraven spam got curbstombed? Wish they did that with Castellans and similar overperformers).
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/02/01 00:02:22
Dark it was, and dire of form
the beast that laid them low
Hrothgar's sharpened frost-forged blade
to deal a fatal blow
he stalked and hunted day and night
and came upon it's lair
With sword and shield Hrothgar fought
and earned the name of slayer
From what was revealed? Strong denial/ redirection/ counterdeploy horde army. Unless something goes terribly wrong in the points values, GSC will be on par with Orks IMO. And Vect will go up to 4 eventually.
Personally I think it's a good direction for factions design to take, which Orks and GSC (or Drukhari and Knights in the early stage) present. A strong leading idea with a twist coming from codex options, that are not undermined by a tightly gripped "internal balance." This means unfortunately the early codices to be less and less relevant, and unless receiving a rework, Admech or SM of all flavor, will lose a viability over new releases.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/02/01 12:42:07
Was going to post a battle report, but it was a bit uneventful. I played a Raven Guard army. I rooted my Dakkabots on the first turn and shot a third of my opponent's army off the table, including a unit of Scouts, Primaris, Helverin, and half a unit of bikes. We called it then and there.
Next week, I am going to see if I can play a Tau Triptide list. (Here's hoping nothing goes wrong at work.)
Anyhow, this is what I am thinking for an AdMech gunline next month:
Spoiler:
Mars Spearhead Detachment - 1074 Cohort Cybernetica (-1 CP)
HQ - 190 1x Belisarius Cawl
Heavy Support - 884 6x Kastelan Robot - 18x Heavy Phosphor Blaster
1x Onager Dunecrawler - Icarus Array, Cognis Heavy Stubber, Broad-Spectrum Data Tether
1x Onager Dunecrawler - Icarus Array, Cognis Heavy Stubber, Broad-Spectrum Data Tether
Some key changes:
1) Dropped the Mortars and second Company Commander. I will keep them around for next week's Triptide matchup, but these guys have been underperforming a bit; it's hard to compare to the rest of the ridiculous artillery line.
2) Manipulus replaces Enginseer. He wasn't very useful in this list aside from repairing. 6" more range on those Dakkabots and Crawlers is extremely valuable. 15" range on Cawl's melta is also nice.
3) Added an Officer of the Fleet with a Dagger. Wulfey pointed this out to me, but apparently, there yet remains one Infantry Officer without a <REGIMENT> keyword. Because Dagger never got an errata, you can use it to place your Ryzaphrons safely in reserve. (Their biggest problem was always that they were liable to be shot off the table on turn one.)
I am furiously painting for the LVO right now. I have so many mans that are just flat out under detailed. ITC rules say your largest faction is your faction, and after 4 games with the infiltrators I was disappointed with how they played. They really need a brigade worth of CP available to do their thing. And a castellan is just too good right now. I could run a 1500 point admech list like Suzeto, but then I would be at the mercy of a bad go first roll against a solid 50% of the lists out there. So I decided to bring something a little less shooty, and more able to play the objectives game.
Spoiler:
Adeptus Mechanicus, Castellan, and Catachan - Jason Wolfe - 2000 points - 12CP - 24 drops
MARS has become STYGIES. Mars crawlers are good, but the role of the crawlers tends to just be attrition over 5 turns. Stygies lets my crawlers and infantry play much longer attrition game. 15 insta die rangers has become 30 omnispex rangers and 30 vanguard. Vanguard have strong synergies with Catachan mans and stygies should let my infantry survive long enough to be relevant. Infiltrators are gone because without WRATH they have about 50% more firepower than a vanguard squad, but MARS infiltrators die faster than STYGIES vanguard against riptides. Too many opponents were able to zone out my drop and force the 50 shot volley into something stupid. I added two astropaths and another company commander because 90 more points of admech didn't produce any firepower gains that mattered. The arquebuses just don't work in ITC because I can't count on never having to move yet also having LOS. This gives me 2 denies and the option to double buff that critical guard squad holding the game winning objective with +1 save and -1 to hit. Castellan got back his second cannon because the cannon really is better. If he dies turn 3, then at least he shot all his missiles and got twice as many cannon shots as the 4x missile variant. I don't have mortars because my mortar models suck and I wanted to run my heap of skitarii footmen models. One of the commanders is the WL because GrandStrategist+Kurovs is still the way to go. Give me 1 more rerolled invul on my knight and another 2CP over another 4 HP in repairs at best please.
In progress
Spoiler:
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/01 23:49:45
@Ideasweasel
I have said it before, but Ynnari is the scariest matchup we have. It's not the Dark Reapers or Shining Spears themselves though. It's all the redeploy and move after shooting shenanigans that they have. You really need to whittle them down over a long game. You also need to play fast to run the clock out on them; Ynnari play slow, even the faster players.
@Wulfey
I think bringing a Raven Castellan or a Krast Styrix is the way to go. If things go bad on turn one in my list, I am reduced to shooting infantry, capping objectives, and hoping I come out ahead in VPs.
I personally think mixed detachment is superior to pure detachment, and that includes either 4x Dakkabots or 10x Infiltrators and some Crawlers; Graia for deny, Ryza for the Kataphrons with the Dagger trick. But if you must do pure FW, Stygies or Agripinaa seem to be the best at 2000 points, but Reapers may be a huge problem for the former. One nice thing about Infiltrators is that they can force the Eldar to play conservatively with the Reapers, lest you drop the Infiltrators and delete them.
Movement trays are definitely a must with so many infantry. To be honest, beyond turn one, they don't really need too much cover.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/02/02 01:54:17
Wulfey wrote: I am furiously painting for the LVO right now. I have so many mans that are just flat out under detailed. ITC rules say your largest faction is your faction, and after 4 games with the infiltrators I was disappointed with how they played. They really need a brigade worth of CP available to do their thing. And a castellan is just too good right now. I could run a 1500 point admech list like Suzeto, but then I would be at the mercy of a bad go first roll against a solid 50% of the lists out there. So I decided to bring something a little less shooty, and more able to play the objectives game.
Spoiler:
Adeptus Mechanicus, Castellan, and Catachan - Jason Wolfe - 2000 points - 12CP - 24 drops
MARS has become STYGIES. Mars crawlers are good, but the role of the crawlers tends to just be attrition over 5 turns. Stygies lets my crawlers and infantry play much longer attrition game.
15 insta die rangers has become 30 omnispex rangers and 30 vanguard. Vanguard have strong synergies with Catachan mans and stygies should let my infantry survive long enough to be relevant.
Infiltrators are gone because without WRATH they have about 50% more firepower than a vanguard squad, but MARS infiltrators die faster than STYGIES vanguard against riptides. Too many opponents were able to zone out my drop and force the 50 shot volley into something stupid.
I added two astropaths and another company commander because 90 more points of admech didn't produce any firepower gains that mattered. The arquebuses just don't work in ITC because I can't count on never having to move yet also having LOS. This gives me 2 denies and the option to double buff that critical guard squad holding the game winning objective with +1 save and -1 to hit.
Castellan got back his second cannon because the cannon really is better. If he dies turn 3, then at least he shot all his missiles and got twice as many cannon shots as the 4x missile variant.
I don't have mortars because my mortar models suck and I wanted to run my heap of skitarii footmen models.
One of the commanders is the WL because GrandStrategist+Kurovs is still the way to go. Give me 1 more rerolled invul on my knight and another 2CP over another 4 HP in repairs at best please.
In progress
Spoiler:
I love Skitarii heavy lists. However I have to ask why none of the special weapons.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
@Wulfey
I think bringing a Raven Castellan or a Krast Styrix is the way to go. If things go bad on turn one in my list, I am reduced to shooting infantry, capping objectives, and hoping I come out ahead in VPs.
After my today local I'd like to interest you in a Krast Crusader idea, with a Headman's Mark, RFBC and Ironstorm. It won't be as efficient as a Raven Castellan point for point (as everything is wounding on 4-), but it has a significant firepower, is able to kill any W10+ model you give him, and is absolutely devastating against Titanics. No wonder, a mere HStubber deals 3 wounds each failed save. What's cool in this setup is you're not as attached to the luck in damage roll, as basically everything is at least 2 (or 3 vs Titanics) flat damage. He's also cheaper to maintain - Rotate for a single CP is a significant advantage. At least for me, as I've been always very short on CPs in my other games (but I refuse to run IG). One thing he's a sore loser at and can't be improved - Oathbreaker's ability to point and kill enemy Warlord.
On a side note - DSed Corpuscarii are freaking awesome . I whined a lot about the new Manipulus, but I guess he might be useful with the Solar Flare as DSers support - I really missed this +1" at times. A pitty I'd have to take Drills and Fulgurites in Lucius then, as that's a waste.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/02 21:50:02
Yup Crusader is a pretty tasty platform for this. Even the gatlingun is nice. Sure you will be wounding on 5s but a flat 4 dmg against other knights is nothing to sneeze at.
Even with a +1 to the charge I feel like it's to unreliable and ti much of investment to pull it of imo.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/02 23:06:34
This has been discussed before. The big problem with Krast Crusader is that it has to pick between wound output and durability. Crusader has to take Ion Bulwark, and he then has to pick between Headsman's Mark or Endless Fury (without rerolls); IMO, Raven Crusader is better in spite of the fact that Krast Crusader is more meta relevant. On the other hand, Krast Styrix has its Ion Bulwark built into its profile and so he can take the Krast WLT for rerolls as well as Headsman's Mark. Furthermore, he's cheaper, can fight as well as he can shoot, and the Volkite Chieorovile profile is pretty much ideal for shooting Titanics, with fixed 5 shots, exploding wounds of 6, and D6+2 damage.
Also, picked up a Theta-7 Acquisitus box today. The new HQ is mostly easy build. He's on a 50mm base, so I think they do consider him to be like a Dominus. Very impressed with the terrain as well; I think it's the same as the Moon Base Kalisus sprues. I am building a new Knight and intend to use some of the smaller pieces for basing.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/02/03 04:29:43
Suzuteo wrote: This has been discussed before. The big problem with Krast Crusader is that it has to pick between wound output and durability. Crusader has to take Ion Bulwark, and he then has to pick between Headsman's Mark or Endless Fury (without rerolls); IMO, Raven Crusader is better in spite of the fact that Krast Crusader is more meta relevant. On the other hand, Krast Styrix has its Ion Bulwark built into its profile and so he can take the Krast WLT for rerolls as well as Headsman's Mark. Furthermore, he's cheaper, can fight as well as he can shoot, and the Volkite Chieorovile profile is pretty much ideal for shooting Titanics, with fixed 5 shots, exploding wounds of 6, and D6+2 damage.
Problem with the Stryx is imo that it is quite swingy. Having 5 shots which only wound half of the time and have to go through a 3++ can very often mean dealing 0 dmg.
Suzuteo wrote: This has been discussed before. The big problem with Krast Crusader is that it has to pick between wound output and durability. Crusader has to take Ion Bulwark, and he then has to pick between Headsman's Mark or Endless Fury (without rerolls); IMO, Raven Crusader is better in spite of the fact that Krast Crusader is more meta relevant. On the other hand, Krast Styrix has its Ion Bulwark built into its profile and so he can take the Krast WLT for rerolls as well as Headsman's Mark. Furthermore, he's cheaper, can fight as well as he can shoot, and the Volkite Chieorovile profile is pretty much ideal for shooting Titanics, with fixed 5 shots, exploding wounds of 6, and D6+2 damage.
Problem with the Stryx is imo that it is quite swingy. Having 5 shots which only wound half of the time and have to go through a 3++ can very often mean dealing 0 dmg.
I concur. Can't say I took the Styrix to an event (as I simply don't have the model) but from my proxy tests he's a big hit or miss. If you are working a poor save army, or without a 4+ invulns, he does fine. But he absolutely whiffed against the other Knights, which makes him a pass on my Knights-heavy local meta. Or Nids, having 4++ on top of the horde and smite spam; 18" flamer and his loadout is not going to help to keep the distance. Magnus is a big no-no pairing as well, Styrix simply lack the shots to break the big guy (although it has been ages since I saw Magnus in actual play). Stock 4++ in shooting and 5++ in melee is a big boon, as he can be suited with other relics and WLT, but his weaponry... not so much.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/02/03 10:43:30
Every anti-Knight gun is swingy. But you're trying to get that outlier damage. If you are dealing average damage, you will NEVER kill the other Knight. An AGC, even with Krast, is virtually NEVER going to kill the other Knight.
Problem with the Crusader is that you won't even be in range for the first turn with the AGC, and the Volkite is ~20% more efficient than your RFBC. Furthermore, you're just going to be shut out against a pure Knights list. There is no way your Crusader will be able to fight a Gallant, so he becomes a liability rather than a strength. In contrast, a Styrix actually beats a Gallant one on one due to his 4++ in fighting (which even a Gallant does not get) and souped up siege claw.
In short, a Crusader pretty much can only shoot, and a Castellan is always going to outshoot a Crusader. A Gallant is always going to outfight a Crusader. But a Styrix can kill a Gallant and is comparable in performance to a Crusader in early shooting; if you can close the distance and charge or score a lucky round of shooting, you can actually beat the Castellan.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/02/03 12:04:14
Its why i think the rfbc is the wrong choice on the crusader. The melta option is cheaper and better in the knight match up.
Sure the gallant will win in CC but it should be debanded by the time it gets there.
The best way to think of a styrix is more of an upgraded errant.
As to CC between a gallant and styrix well its who hits first a lot of the time deband a styrix and its not hitting back that hard
Also if your crusader is only shooting your not useing it effectively its feet are still quality infantry killers / great at tieing up/ damageing light vehicles. Sure its not great vs other knights but that doesnt mean it does nothing. I've lost count of the tau i've stomped. Knights are only 10 -16% of the meta. And even that castellan is going to have guardsmen you can stomp.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2019/02/03 13:36:24
U02dah4 wrote: Its why i think the rfbc is the wrong choice on the crusader. The melta option is cheaper and better in the knight match up.
Sure the gallant will win in CC but it should be debanded by the time it gets there.
The best way to think of a styrix is more of an upgraded errant.
As to CC between a gallant and styrix well its who hits first a lot of the time deband a styrix and its not hitting back that hard
Also if your crusader is only shooting your not useing it effectively its feet are still quality infantry killers / great at tieing up/ damageing light vehicles. Sure its not great vs other knights but that doesnt mean it does nothing. I've lost count of the tau i've stomped. Knights are only 10 -16% of the meta. And even that castellan is going to have guardsmen you can stomp.
We can ignore damage charts any time we like for 1cp, imperials dont have that. The krast strategm also allows the styrix melee hits to explode on a 6+ for 1cp if you really need to make sure you take out whatever is in your face.
To clarify, I am talking about a Taranis with Knight Seneschal WLT and any relic other than Sanctuary (so 5++). If they take the Sanctuary on Gallant (4++), then the Gallant has a slight advantage.
U02dah4 wrote: Doesnt the styrix xlaw have -1 to hit so wouldnt that be 5 max?
Incidentally, a Reaper Chainsword actually outperforms the Siege Claw in a straight up fight against a Gallant. Turning a 4+ to hit into 3+ (with reroll) is better than turning a 3+ to wound to 2+. You also save the 25 points you pay for the Rad-cleanser, but it's great against infantry, so it's 25 points I usually don't mind paying.
U02dah4 wrote: Its why i think the rfbc is the wrong choice on the crusader. The melta option is cheaper and better in the knight match up.
Sure the gallant will win in CC but it should be debanded by the time it gets there.
The best way to think of a styrix is more of an upgraded errant.
As to CC between a gallant and styrix well its who hits first a lot of the time deband a styrix and its not hitting back that hard
Also if your crusader is only shooting your not useing it effectively its feet are still quality infantry killers / great at tieing up/ damageing light vehicles. Sure its not great vs other knights but that doesnt mean it does nothing. I've lost count of the tau i've stomped. Knights are only 10 -16% of the meta. And even that castellan is going to have guardsmen you can stomp.
Agreed. Alas, by the time you get in range for the melta effect, you might as well be getting ready to fight. A Styrix is basically an Errant, but with a much better gun.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/03 21:03:56
. I whined a lot about the new Manipulus, but I guess he might be useful with the Solar Flare as DSers support - I really missed this +1" at times. A pitty I'd have to take Drills and Fulgurites in Lucius then, as that's a waste.
