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Made in gb
Aspirant Tech-Adept






Off topic but anyone got any intel or guesses as to how long before forgeworld drip feed us some mechanicum 40k rules ala custodes style
   
Made in ca
Tough Traitorous Guardsman






About the termite list
I can understand the termite is not expensive for its capability and toughness, but its content seems squishy. I don't see how 50 skitarii models without special weapons can hope to accomplish anything. And why play the hoplites? I miss the Haywire rule...
In the T8 department, Leman Russ seems far superior than a Drill with its content.
I'd like to make a competitive list based on the Termite, but I'm not convinced. Maybe I should wait for the 30k model rules.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2019/02/21 22:48:41


 
   
Made in us
Quick-fingered Warlord Moderatus






 deffrekka wrote:
A Sub Domina or Tech Auxilia would be amazing as a troop commander for our Skits. Have you played Mechanicus? That has a lot of insight into what each type of Tech Priest is like.

I really should look into that. Would be great to have more variety than small, medium, and large. Haha.

 Hulksmash wrote:
Also this is where my pure admech is starting at. Currently it's 11pts over but that's fixable;

Mixed Battalion
Enginseer (Lucius)
Enginseer (Griai)
5 Rangers (Stygies)
5 Rangers (Stygies)
5 Rangers (Griai)

Mars Brigade
Cawl
Manipulus
Enginseer
4 Servitors
4 Servitors
5 Infiltrators w/Flechette & Tasers
2x7 Breachers w/Heavy Arc Rifles
4x8 Rangers w/Omnispex
3xAutocannon Striders
2xIcarus Crawler w/Stubber
3 Kastellan

I just noticed this part of the post, which has a list. There is a problem here: You can't Mindlock your Breachers with Cawl. It has to be a Dominus. Hope you haven't been playing that wrong. (Unless they FAQed that somewhere?)

 RenegadeKorps wrote:
About the termite list
I can understand the termite is not expensive for its capability and toughness, but its content seems squishy. I don't see how 50 skitarii models without special weapons can hope to accomplish anything. And why play the hoplites? I miss the Haywire rule...
In the T8 department, Leman Russ seems far superior than a Drill with its content.
I'd like to make a competitive list based on the Termite, but I'm not convinced. Maybe I should wait for the 30k model rules.

I think the usual barrel of monkeys approach is to bring Fulgurites, which are amazing on the charge and after they make a kill.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/02/21 23:21:47


 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut



Glasgow

VladimirHerzog wrote:
U02dah4 wrote:
Well im running 9 to a gt this weekend particularly in agripinaa they are tanky for their points solid as frontline melee. They tend to attract firepower but often live due to the agripinaa strat and make their pts back over a few turns of shooting not to mention in shielding other units

As to Lvo data only three lists ran them but they did better on avg than the admech lists without.



so you stick them at the front of you castle and mow down whatever comes close and failing that , take potshots at vehicles? I'll have to try them (so i have an excuse to convert some bullgryn with the breacher weapons bit that were leftover from my destroyers), but the 2 hits with BS4 is making me nervous.


Pretty much i run agripinaa so i can bring them back if their badly damaged and often reroll 1's to wound with eye. played tau today and every model was alive at the end of the game (despite a number of casualties). On any given tyrn he damage output isnt great but they did more net than my ryzaphrones and soaked more damage.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Hulksmash wrote:
If you already run a dominus the you can get them to a 3+ reroll 1s for a cp. Mine are actually generally behind the line of rangers so they can shoot and counter attack. But I've got a buddy using them as front line smashers


Parallel to vanguard for me I sometimes charge with them. Followed up by a vanguard to W a sm equivalent on a 2+


Automatically Appended Next Post:

The GSG Vect strat has the pre-FAQ pricing, its probably going to get set to 4cp in the next FAQ.


Yeah thats what im saying, the GSC version will most likely get the price hike too in their FAQ. What U02dah4 is saying is a bit silly, just think if a chaos knight book came out and they had their own version of order of companions and it was the cost before its nerf. Just because there are from a different faction doesnt mean it shouldnt cost the same. Its things like this that ruin the game.


Don't know why it wont quote the above




What I am saying is that the same ability can be available to two significantly different factions at different costs and those factions can still be balanced overall.

I do not have enough evidence to know how GSC will perform once people have got to grips with them.

I do know that eldar are one of the strongest factions. I hypotheise that their power levels will be different

What you are saying is giving the same powerful ability to two identical factions will make one overpowered. You are right but that is not the same situation.

if you gave order of companions to inquisition, grey knights, elucidean starstriders or necrons would they be equally overpowered

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2019/02/22 00:35:48


 
   
Made in us
Archmagos Veneratus Extremis






Home Base: Prosper, TX (Dallas)

@suzeto

Of by mondlock you mean hmthe +1 to hit on the breachers for shooting nope, I dont use it since i dont have the dominus. Straight 4+ rerollable for me. Not sure where you got the idea I did

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/22 00:37:23


Best Painted (2015 Adepticon 40k Champs)

They Shall Know Fear - Adepticon 40k TT Champion (2012 & 2013) & 40k TT Best Sport (2014), 40k TT Best Tactician (2015 & 2016) 
   
Made in ca
Tough Traitorous Guardsman






I'm considering 3 Termites + 3x12 fulgurite priests (Stygies, and possibly -3CP for scout move) with a Manipulus. It clocks at 1068 pts, so 932 pts left.
What would be the best units from there? I have Sob, Custodes and IG armies. I might buy an Atropos Knight.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/02/22 04:14:29


 
   
Made in us
Quick-fingered Warlord Moderatus






 Hulksmash wrote:
@suzeto

Of by mondlock you mean hmthe +1 to hit on the breachers for shooting nope, I dont use it since i dont have the dominus. Straight 4+ rerollable for me. Not sure where you got the idea I did

Oh. But that's one of the reasons why they're so good. The BS4 has been holding them back for awhile.
   
Made in gb
Stabbin' Skarboy





crewe

 Ideasweasel wrote:
Off topic but anyone got any intel or guesses as to how long before forgeworld drip feed us some mechanicum 40k rules ala custodes style


Forgeworld are no longer doing the 40k side of things when it comes to rules, It has now been passed on to Citadel ires of Cyraxus is in their hands now so hopefully we will get it quicker


Automatically Appended Next Post:
U02dah4 wrote:
VladimirHerzog wrote:
U02dah4 wrote:
Well im running 9 to a gt this weekend particularly in agripinaa they are tanky for their points solid as frontline melee. They tend to attract firepower but often live due to the agripinaa strat and make their pts back over a few turns of shooting not to mention in shielding other units

As to Lvo data only three lists ran them but they did better on avg than the admech lists without.



so you stick them at the front of you castle and mow down whatever comes close and failing that , take potshots at vehicles? I'll have to try them (so i have an excuse to convert some bullgryn with the breacher weapons bit that were leftover from my destroyers), but the 2 hits with BS4 is making me nervous.


Pretty much i run agripinaa so i can bring them back if their badly damaged and often reroll 1's to wound with eye. played tau today and every model was alive at the end of the game (despite a number of casualties). On any given tyrn he damage output isnt great but they did more net than my ryzaphrones and soaked more damage.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Hulksmash wrote:
If you already run a dominus the you can get them to a 3+ reroll 1s for a cp. Mine are actually generally behind the line of rangers so they can shoot and counter attack. But I've got a buddy using them as front line smashers


Parallel to vanguard for me I sometimes charge with them. Followed up by a vanguard to W a sm equivalent on a 2+


Automatically Appended Next Post:

The GSG Vect strat has the pre-FAQ pricing, its probably going to get set to 4cp in the next FAQ.


Yeah thats what im saying, the GSC version will most likely get the price hike too in their FAQ. What U02dah4 is saying is a bit silly, just think if a chaos knight book came out and they had their own version of order of companions and it was the cost before its nerf. Just because there are from a different faction doesnt mean it shouldnt cost the same. Its things like this that ruin the game.


Don't know why it wont quote the above




What I am saying is that the same ability can be available to two significantly different factions at different costs and those factions can still be balanced overall.

I do not have enough evidence to know how GSC will perform once people have got to grips with them.

I do know that eldar are one of the strongest factions. I hypotheise that their power levels will be different

What you are saying is giving the same powerful ability to two identical factions will make one overpowered. You are right but that is not the same situation.

if you gave order of companions to inquisition, grey knights, elucidean starstriders or necrons would they be equally overpowered

Genecult are already up there for one of the strongest factions in the game right now, they cover numbers, speed, combat and psychic extremely well and the only thing they are subpar on is shooting which they can quite easily elevate with Nids or Brood Brothers. When the game is primarily about objectives, GSC have a HUGE advantage in that field, they are essentially guard with deployment shenanigans. They can weather turn 1 fairly well if they go second, they have one of the best psychic powers in the game now, cheap characters that all buff nearby GSC units, amazing CC units in Abberants and the your bog standard Acolytes. With my Genecult i havent lost a game with the new dex, if you play them right (most batreps on YouTube dont) they are extremely hard to fight against. If anything next CA Acolytes and Handflamers need to go up in cost, as they are ridiculously good. Pair it with them swimming in CP with a 40pt character to farm it back they are crazy good. You then soup in Nids to fill out your weaknesses and its a lot more potent than an Eldar Soup. Thus their strat should also cost 4CP. Just like if Chaos Knights had Order of Companions it would be the post FAQ cost even if Renegade Knights arent the same as Imperial Knights (they arent).

Orkz and Grey Knights have strats that are over priced compared to other faction which is well known. As are some of ours (the cantical ones mainly, have you ever used it? I havent, not once). Eldar are one of the strongest factions due to speed, psychic, shooting and assault so when Genecult do the same but hold objectives better and can easily turn 2 deepstrike charge its very easily to see that Genecult is a Meta changer and around my area there has been a huge upsurge of people switching to them and as an Admech player im going to have to adapt to that, but as i play GSC also i have a better understanding of the army and their limits.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/22 11:23:09


How many kans can a killa kan kill if a killa kan can kill kans?  
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut



Glasgow

Having the potential to do well and looking like they have the tools is not the same thing as 12 months of data showing success in the 55-70% ranged.

One is speculation one is firm evidence

And you only need to look at earlier discussions on something like how good a ranger is to see how people can give wildly different estimates.

Im not saying your wrong just that we need to see what the data shows before jumping to conclusions

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/22 13:31:41


 
   
Made in ca
Arch Magos w/ 4 Meg of RAM






 deffrekka wrote:


A Sub Domina or Tech Auxilia would be amazing as a troop commander for our Skits. Have you played Mechanicus? That has a lot of insight into what each type of Tech Priest is like.


This game has made me realise the one thing i wish our techpriest had : massive customisation options. (Im talking about a fluffy aspect now, obviously it would be harder to balance) I would love to see our techpriests have 'slots' that we can equip ANY admech weapon, and also have buffs that are equippable but take up slots (youd still pay for everything accordingly). That way you'd be able to get a techpriest with no aura but like with dual wielding incendine combustors going ham in the enemy lines, or get a purely buff character that has the dominus + manipulus buff for example. Realistically i dont think that would happen and even if it did, there would be like one competitive build (stack buffs) that would be played. Would be dope for narrative games.
   
Made in gb
Stabbin' Skarboy





crewe

U02dah4 wrote:
Having the potential to do well and looking like they have the tools is not the same thing as 12 months of data showing success in the 55-70% ranged.

One is speculation one is firm evidence

And you only need to look at earlier discussions on something like how good a ranger is to see how people can give wildly different estimates.

Im not saying your wrong just that we need to see what the data shows before jumping to conclusions


Well yeah but thats unfair viewpoint towards the GSC. Just because they havent been out for over 12 months doesnt mean they arent strong. They are probably one of the few codexes that have and will change the meta in an explosive way. Most armies wont have the data for 6 months to prove anything about there current state in the competitive scene, but you can compare a new codex to others to see how successful they will be. When a codex naturally excels at 4-5 of the 6 aspects of the game whilst being cheap makes them a strong contender and you dont need 12 months of data to prove that. The game changes too much to even use 12 months as a firm range of information to use, Eldar was October 2017? If i remember correctly they were not a massively strong codex, Harliequins and Dark Eldar were yet to be realised and they were quite overcosted (except dark reapers). Dark Eldar was then April 2018 and Harlies May 2018. Then Eldar started started to be something scary, but from the get go and as a standalone faction of Craftworlders they were not. They were released along side Guard and Tyranids that stole all the thunder and was the current hotness of the time. We then have to take into account the big FAQ 2 and that changed things again, so i can say Eldar havent been kings for the majority of the Meta, maybe in the likes of ITC but not in the game as a wider whole.

From pure speculation yes GSC will be a huge shift to the current game, but speculation isnt a bad thing, most things start out by guesses and hypothesis, eventually the data will back up the new Nid Soup as being a top contender for number 1 on the podium. Rangers are a touchy feely subject, as a troop choice compared to many other ones in the game they are amazing for their cost, but when things like Guardsmen and Acolytes exist people will always assume they are subpar, people estimate wildly as people dont use them, instead they rely on maths and statistics but until you actually use them youll never know how they perform. There are more aspects to the game instead of can it kill GEQ and can it survive. The game is more about resources and time. If someone shoots or charges Rangers over Destroyers thats a win for the Admech and whilst yes Guardsmen can be a better screen it still doesnt diminish the fact your Rangers still affected the game. It may be in a mariginal way but overall it can cost your opponent the game.

I am very pro Ranger just like Hulksmash and i find them to be extremely good for what they bring to the table. I dont care if Guard are a better option, i still find them to be good. Just like how im not fond of Vanguard, in my opinion they have been butchered this edition with the change to Radiums, Calivers and the lose of scout moves and army wide Doctrines. Gone are the days of of squads of 10 Vanguard with 3 Calivers at BS 6 nuking things off the board.

All things considered it would be quite foolish to underestimate the strength of GSC right now in this Meta and thus there AoV ability should cost accordingly to the current post FAQ cost. Any stratagem that stops someone elses is strong no matter if its in the hands of Orkz, Grey Knights, Tau or Necrons. When most armies are built around stratagems and the combinations you make with them, if you remove a link from that chain you can cost the opponent to loose the game. Get ride of Elimination Protocols and youve made that blob of Destroyers less effective. Stop Plasma Specialists of Weapons of the Dark Age and suddenly those plasma weapons arent extreme death rays of doom and sadness. Shutting down any one of the following: Mob Up, Showin Off, Moar Dakka, Grot Shield and all of a sudden that Loota Star is very veryyyyy weak. Either Order of Companions, Rotate Ion Shields, Machine Spirit Resurgence not going off limits the affectiveness of the Castellan. Getting ride of Apon Wings of Fire to stop that Smash Captain making a 3d6 charge. Nullifying someone elses AoV against you on a crucial strat late game. Yeah its hugely important regardless of what army you are.

If my Orkz had that it would boost them massively and same with my Dark Angels, you can control your opponents stratagems and thus change how they play. You are manipulating a key aspect of the game, so yes it should cost the same for any faction, just like pretty much every single fight again strat is 3CP, i could be wrong but im pretty sure its 3CP for every army that has it, even if Orkz are better than what other faction has it in CC, its still the same cost across the board.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
VladimirHerzog wrote:
 deffrekka wrote:


A Sub Domina or Tech Auxilia would be amazing as a troop commander for our Skits. Have you played Mechanicus? That has a lot of insight into what each type of Tech Priest is like.


This game has made me realise the one thing i wish our techpriest had : massive customisation options. (Im talking about a fluffy aspect now, obviously it would be harder to balance) I would love to see our techpriests have 'slots' that we can equip ANY admech weapon, and also have buffs that are equippable but take up slots (youd still pay for everything accordingly). That way you'd be able to get a techpriest with no aura but like with dual wielding incendine combustors going ham in the enemy lines, or get a purely buff character that has the dominus + manipulus buff for example. Realistically i dont think that would happen and even if it did, there would be like one competitive build (stack buffs) that would be played. Would be dope for narrative games.


In the books this happens a lot too, i really like the Archmagos Samekh Umbra who has vast clones of himself who all have the same knowledge as him but each changes their form as an individual. In the Skitarius novel there is an Alpha who has a Mechanitor Array that have 2 Plasma Calivers. We kind of had it back in 7th with wargear options but thats gone now, GW has shut down the whole "if its not in the kit you cant have it" thing they have going on. This cost Orkz the Looted Wagon for example. They could easily release a wargear kit for our Techpriest that contains Combustors, Atomisers, Plamsas, Torsion Cannons and Phosphor weaponary and that would be sweet but its highly unlikely. The new Techpriest guy has a Eradication Pistol and i would love that on my Dominus instead of his Serpenta, or the Manipulus to have an actual long ranged weapon but it will most likely never happen.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/02/22 14:42:19


How many kans can a killa kan kill if a killa kan can kill kans?  
   
Made in us
Heroic Senior Officer





Western Kentucky

VladimirHerzog wrote:
 deffrekka wrote:


A Sub Domina or Tech Auxilia would be amazing as a troop commander for our Skits. Have you played Mechanicus? That has a lot of insight into what each type of Tech Priest is like.


This game has made me realise the one thing i wish our techpriest had : massive customisation options. (Im talking about a fluffy aspect now, obviously it would be harder to balance) I would love to see our techpriests have 'slots' that we can equip ANY admech weapon, and also have buffs that are equippable but take up slots (youd still pay for everything accordingly). That way you'd be able to get a techpriest with no aura but like with dual wielding incendine combustors going ham in the enemy lines, or get a purely buff character that has the dominus + manipulus buff for example. Realistically i dont think that would happen and even if it did, there would be like one competitive build (stack buffs) that would be played. Would be dope for narrative games.

You can kind of do it in narrative play with the custom hero rules but you'll need to have a good opponent who's not going to just cheese the snot out of it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also a bit off topic but with all this hype about assassins maybe the transuranic arquebus will see some more use? If we have a serious threat of these units being thrown at us we probably have the best non assassin snipers in the game to pick them off early. That said I know fairly little about assassins so I don't know if they have any special invulns or something that would make the arquebuses useless.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/22 17:16:09


'I've played Guard for years, and the best piece of advice is to always utilize the Guard's best special rule: "we roll more dice than you" ' - stormleader

"Sector Imperialis: 25mm and 40mm Round Bases (40+20) 26€ (Including 32 skulls for basing) " GW design philosophy in a nutshell  
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut



Glasgow

 deffrekka wrote:
U02dah4 wrote:
Having the potential to do well and looking like they have the tools is not the same thing as 12 months of data showing success in the 55-70% ranged.

One is speculation one is firm evidence

And you only need to look at earlier discussions on something like how good a ranger is to see how people can give wildly different estimates.

Im not saying your wrong just that we need to see what the data shows before jumping to conclusions


Well yeah but thats unfair viewpoint towards the GSC. Just because they havent been out for over 12 months doesnt mean they arent strong. They are probably one of the few codexes that have and will change the meta in an explosive way. Most armies wont have the data for 6 months to prove anything about there current state in the competitive scene, but you can compare a new codex to others to see how successful they will be. When a codex naturally excels at 4-5 of the 6 aspects of the game whilst being cheap makes them a strong contender and you dont need 12 months of data to prove that. The game changes too much to even use 12 months as a firm range of information to use, Eldar was October 2017? If i remember correctly they were not a massively strong codex, Harliequins and Dark Eldar were yet to be realised and they were quite overcosted (except dark reapers). Dark Eldar was then April 2018 and Harlies May 2018. Then Eldar started started to be something scary, but from the get go and as a standalone faction of Craftworlders they were not. They were released along side Guard and Tyranids that stole all the thunder and was the current hotness of the time. We then have to take into account the big FAQ 2 and that changed things again, so i can say Eldar havent been kings for the majority of the Meta, maybe in the likes of ITC but not in the game as a wider whole.

From pure speculation yes GSC will be a huge shift to the current game, but speculation isnt a bad thing, most things start out by guesses and hypothesis, eventually the data will back up the new Nid Soup as being a top contender for number 1 on the podium. Rangers are a touchy feely subject, as a troop choice compared to many other ones in the game they are amazing for their cost, but when things like Guardsmen and Acolytes exist people will always assume they are subpar, people estimate wildly as people dont use them, instead they rely on maths and statistics but until you actually use them youll never know how they perform. There are more aspects to the game instead of can it kill GEQ and can it survive. The game is more about resources and time. If someone shoots or charges Rangers over Destroyers thats a win for the Admech and whilst yes Guardsmen can be a better screen it still doesnt diminish the fact your Rangers still affected the game. It may be in a mariginal way but overall it can cost your opponent the game.

I am very pro Ranger just like Hulksmash and i find them to be extremely good for what they bring to the table. I dont care if Guard are a better option, i still find them to be good. Just like how im not fond of Vanguard, in my opinion they have been butchered this edition with the change to Radiums, Calivers and the lose of scout moves and army wide Doctrines. Gone are the days of of squads of 10 Vanguard with 3 Calivers at BS 6 nuking things off the board.

All things considered it would be quite foolish to underestimate the strength of GSC right now in this Meta and thus there AoV ability should cost accordingly to the current post FAQ cost. Any stratagem that stops someone elses is strong no matter if its in the hands of Orkz, Grey Knights, Tau or Necrons. When most armies are built around stratagems and the combinations you make with them, if you remove a link from that chain you can cost the opponent to loose the game. Get ride of Elimination Protocols and youve made that blob of Destroyers less effective. Stop Plasma Specialists of Weapons of the Dark Age and suddenly those plasma weapons arent extreme death rays of doom and sadness. Shutting down any one of the following: Mob Up, Showin Off, Moar Dakka, Grot Shield and all of a sudden that Loota Star is very veryyyyy weak. Either Order of Companions, Rotate Ion Shields, Machine Spirit Resurgence not going off limits the affectiveness of the Castellan. Getting ride of Apon Wings of Fire to stop that Smash Captain making a 3d6 charge. Nullifying someone elses AoV against you on a crucial strat late game. Yeah its hugely important regardless of what army you are.

If my Orkz had that it would boost them massively and same with my Dark Angels, you can control your opponents stratagems and thus change how they play. You are manipulating a key aspect of the game, so yes it should cost the same for any faction, just like pretty much every single fight again strat is 3CP, i could be wrong but im pretty sure its 3CP for every army that has it, even if Orkz are better than what other faction has it in CC, its still the same cost across the board.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
VladimirHerzog wrote:
 deffrekka wrote:


A Sub Domina or Tech Auxilia would be amazing as a troop commander for our Skits. Have you played Mechanicus? That has a lot of insight into what each type of Tech Priest is like.


This game has made me realise the one thing i wish our techpriest had : massive customisation options. (Im talking about a fluffy aspect now, obviously it would be harder to balance) I would love to see our techpriests have 'slots' that we can equip ANY admech weapon, and also have buffs that are equippable but take up slots (youd still pay for everything accordingly). That way you'd be able to get a techpriest with no aura but like with dual wielding incendine combustors going ham in the enemy lines, or get a purely buff character that has the dominus + manipulus buff for example. Realistically i dont think that would happen and even if it did, there would be like one competitive build (stack buffs) that would be played. Would be dope for narrative games.


In the books this happens a lot too, i really like the Archmagos Samekh Umbra who has vast clones of himself who all have the same knowledge as him but each changes their form as an individual. In the Skitarius novel there is an Alpha who has a Mechanitor Array that have 2 Plasma Calivers. We kind of had it back in 7th with wargear options but thats gone now, GW has shut down the whole "if its not in the kit you cant have it" thing they have going on. This cost Orkz the Looted Wagon for example. They could easily release a wargear kit for our Techpriest that contains Combustors, Atomisers, Plamsas, Torsion Cannons and Phosphor weaponary and that would be sweet but its highly unlikely. The new Techpriest guy has a Eradication Pistol and i would love that on my Dominus instead of his Serpenta, or the Manipulus to have an actual long ranged weapon but it will most likely never happen.


Its entirely fair if your saying it takes 6 months to evaluate give them 6 months come back in september. I'm not saying they arn't strong just that I am not certain how strong they are. True its an arbitrary time frame and if they take first place in every tournament for the next 3 months we might want to intervene sooner. However a couple of weeks and no major wins/GT firsts(to my knowledge) is too soon to confirm.

People were saying the same thing about orks shakeing up the meta not long ago and they have been somewhat lacklustre

It's a strong ability but an army is more than one strategem. I don't underestimate or overestimate them i just say I do not know how good they are untill i see significant testing.

Finnally grey knights do well on your metrics - Strong shooting strong CC mobile (so much DS) strong psychic. Yet they suck 1 bad metric is all it takes sometimes in gk terms cost
   
Made in gb
Stabbin' Skarboy





crewe

U02dah4 wrote:
 deffrekka wrote:
U02dah4 wrote:
Having the potential to do well and looking like they have the tools is not the same thing as 12 months of data showing success in the 55-70% ranged.

One is speculation one is firm evidence

And you only need to look at earlier discussions on something like how good a ranger is to see how people can give wildly different estimates.

Im not saying your wrong just that we need to see what the data shows before jumping to conclusions


Well yeah but thats unfair viewpoint towards the GSC. Just because they havent been out for over 12 months doesnt mean they arent strong. They are probably one of the few codexes that have and will change the meta in an explosive way. Most armies wont have the data for 6 months to prove anything about there current state in the competitive scene, but you can compare a new codex to others to see how successful they will be. When a codex naturally excels at 4-5 of the 6 aspects of the game whilst being cheap makes them a strong contender and you dont need 12 months of data to prove that. The game changes too much to even use 12 months as a firm range of information to use, Eldar was October 2017? If i remember correctly they were not a massively strong codex, Harliequins and Dark Eldar were yet to be realised and they were quite overcosted (except dark reapers). Dark Eldar was then April 2018 and Harlies May 2018. Then Eldar started started to be something scary, but from the get go and as a standalone faction of Craftworlders they were not. They were released along side Guard and Tyranids that stole all the thunder and was the current hotness of the time. We then have to take into account the big FAQ 2 and that changed things again, so i can say Eldar havent been kings for the majority of the Meta, maybe in the likes of ITC but not in the game as a wider whole.

From pure speculation yes GSC will be a huge shift to the current game, but speculation isnt a bad thing, most things start out by guesses and hypothesis, eventually the data will back up the new Nid Soup as being a top contender for number 1 on the podium. Rangers are a touchy feely subject, as a troop choice compared to many other ones in the game they are amazing for their cost, but when things like Guardsmen and Acolytes exist people will always assume they are subpar, people estimate wildly as people dont use them, instead they rely on maths and statistics but until you actually use them youll never know how they perform. There are more aspects to the game instead of can it kill GEQ and can it survive. The game is more about resources and time. If someone shoots or charges Rangers over Destroyers thats a win for the Admech and whilst yes Guardsmen can be a better screen it still doesnt diminish the fact your Rangers still affected the game. It may be in a mariginal way but overall it can cost your opponent the game.

I am very pro Ranger just like Hulksmash and i find them to be extremely good for what they bring to the table. I dont care if Guard are a better option, i still find them to be good. Just like how im not fond of Vanguard, in my opinion they have been butchered this edition with the change to Radiums, Calivers and the lose of scout moves and army wide Doctrines. Gone are the days of of squads of 10 Vanguard with 3 Calivers at BS 6 nuking things off the board.

All things considered it would be quite foolish to underestimate the strength of GSC right now in this Meta and thus there AoV ability should cost accordingly to the current post FAQ cost. Any stratagem that stops someone elses is strong no matter if its in the hands of Orkz, Grey Knights, Tau or Necrons. When most armies are built around stratagems and the combinations you make with them, if you remove a link from that chain you can cost the opponent to loose the game. Get ride of Elimination Protocols and youve made that blob of Destroyers less effective. Stop Plasma Specialists of Weapons of the Dark Age and suddenly those plasma weapons arent extreme death rays of doom and sadness. Shutting down any one of the following: Mob Up, Showin Off, Moar Dakka, Grot Shield and all of a sudden that Loota Star is very veryyyyy weak. Either Order of Companions, Rotate Ion Shields, Machine Spirit Resurgence not going off limits the affectiveness of the Castellan. Getting ride of Apon Wings of Fire to stop that Smash Captain making a 3d6 charge. Nullifying someone elses AoV against you on a crucial strat late game. Yeah its hugely important regardless of what army you are.

If my Orkz had that it would boost them massively and same with my Dark Angels, you can control your opponents stratagems and thus change how they play. You are manipulating a key aspect of the game, so yes it should cost the same for any faction, just like pretty much every single fight again strat is 3CP, i could be wrong but im pretty sure its 3CP for every army that has it, even if Orkz are better than what other faction has it in CC, its still the same cost across the board.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
VladimirHerzog wrote:
 deffrekka wrote:


A Sub Domina or Tech Auxilia would be amazing as a troop commander for our Skits. Have you played Mechanicus? That has a lot of insight into what each type of Tech Priest is like.


This game has made me realise the one thing i wish our techpriest had : massive customisation options. (Im talking about a fluffy aspect now, obviously it would be harder to balance) I would love to see our techpriests have 'slots' that we can equip ANY admech weapon, and also have buffs that are equippable but take up slots (youd still pay for everything accordingly). That way you'd be able to get a techpriest with no aura but like with dual wielding incendine combustors going ham in the enemy lines, or get a purely buff character that has the dominus + manipulus buff for example. Realistically i dont think that would happen and even if it did, there would be like one competitive build (stack buffs) that would be played. Would be dope for narrative games.


In the books this happens a lot too, i really like the Archmagos Samekh Umbra who has vast clones of himself who all have the same knowledge as him but each changes their form as an individual. In the Skitarius novel there is an Alpha who has a Mechanitor Array that have 2 Plasma Calivers. We kind of had it back in 7th with wargear options but thats gone now, GW has shut down the whole "if its not in the kit you cant have it" thing they have going on. This cost Orkz the Looted Wagon for example. They could easily release a wargear kit for our Techpriest that contains Combustors, Atomisers, Plamsas, Torsion Cannons and Phosphor weaponary and that would be sweet but its highly unlikely. The new Techpriest guy has a Eradication Pistol and i would love that on my Dominus instead of his Serpenta, or the Manipulus to have an actual long ranged weapon but it will most likely never happen.


Its entirely fair if your saying it takes 6 months to evaluate give them 6 months come back in september. I'm not saying they arn't strong just that I am not certain how strong they are. True its an arbitrary time frame and if they take first place in every tournament for the next 3 months we might want to intervene sooner. However a couple of weeks and no major wins/GT firsts(to my knowledge) is too soon to confirm.

People were saying the same thing about orks shakeing up the meta not long ago and they have been somewhat lacklustre

It's a strong ability but an army is more than one strategem. I don't underestimate or overestimate them i just say I do not know how good they are untill i see significant testing.

Finnally grey knights do well on your metrics - Strong shooting strong CC mobile (so much DS) strong psychic. Yet they suck 1 bad metric is all it takes sometimes in gk terms cost


The problem with Orkz is that they were hyped up for a long time by GW and the likes of FLG but the codex was still trash, why did they hype up the stompa again when its a steaming trash pile. The codex was not done with CA18 in mind (you can see that with the expensive wargear options compared to other races and still pricey units like Burnas and Lootas). They also had the only troop choice in the game that went up in pts in a Codex (not CA), and im still a firm believer that Boyz arent 7pts when compared to Rangers and Acolytes. The buggies were massively over costed and when comparing it to a Ridge Runner they are 30 to 40pts over. What shook up the Meta is Greentide yet again, not warbikes, dreadmobs, specialists, etc. From day one Orkz werent amazing as the Codex wasnt done well and there is still huge holes in the army (why no invuns anymore on our characters, why is cybork body useless, no gitfindas for Big Meks anymore, the lose on the Looted Wagon still).

And i dont find Grey Knights great on my metrics, our Grey Knight playes have left or switched armies around my area, they are still over priced.

How many kans can a killa kan kill if a killa kan can kill kans?  
   
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Inexperienced admech player and frequent tyranid player with a question here. How important is the psychic phase? I’m looking to run an imperial Knight/admech list in a tournament coming up and the lack of interaction with the psychic phase has me concerned.
   
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Drdotts wrote:
Inexperienced admech player and frequent tyranid player with a question here. How important is the psychic phase? I’m looking to run an imperial Knight/admech list in a tournament coming up and the lack of interaction with the psychic phase has me concerned.


if you take a couple of Graia vanguard squads or the new culexus assassin from the March White Dwarf, you probably do not have to worry too much.

Praise the Omnissiah

About 4k of .

Imperial Knights (Valiant, Warden & Armigers)

Some Misc. Imperium units etc. Assassins...

About 2k of  
   
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I’m looking at both to accompany my knights
   
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Fresh-Faced New User




What are people’s opinions/thoughts on Kastelans with Fist-loadouts ? I have about 350 pts to play with and I’m looking for a little more anti-knight/vehicle along with some center board presence.

I would run them in Stygies along side some Dragoons. But Do they fill similar roles or would they be cohesive together ?

Any thoughts / opinions are appreciated !
   
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Stalwart Tribune





Kozz wrote:
What are people’s opinions/thoughts on Kastelans with Fist-loadouts ? I have about 350 pts to play with and I’m looking for a little more anti-knight/vehicle along with some center board presence.

I would run them in Stygies along side some Dragoons. But Do they fill similar roles or would they be cohesive together ?

Any thoughts / opinions are appreciated !


Lucius bots in a Vigilus detachment work ok. deep strike them, stratagem for additional charge range, change protocols and fight twice...

Praise the Omnissiah

About 4k of .

Imperial Knights (Valiant, Warden & Armigers)

Some Misc. Imperium units etc. Assassins...

About 2k of  
   
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Belgium

Kozz wrote:
What are people’s opinions/thoughts on Kastelans with Fist-loadouts ? I have about 350 pts to play with and I’m looking for a little more anti-knight/vehicle along with some center board presence.

I would run them in Stygies along side some Dragoons. But Do they fill similar roles or would they be cohesive together ?

Any thoughts / opinions are appreciated !

I'm playing a 2000 pts list with a Cybernetica Lucius Battalion and a Servitor Maniple Agripinaa Battalion, with a single unit of 4 Fistellans with combustors and their Datasmith, and so far they've done great almost each game.

They're nice because you drop them and just sow mayhem in the middle of the table, nobody can ignore 4 Robots punching their way through and they're actually a good option against Knights of all sorts because the Knights' invulnerable save doesn't work in CC. My strategy generally is to clear the screens if there's any in the first turn to make some room for them later. If there's no screens I'll drop them T1. I have them shoot something with their combustors and then charge with the +3 stratagem, they never missed a charge that way and made a 14" charge once thanks to that. Just remember that you can't declare a charge against a unit further than 12".

For their protocols, I'll see with their current targets if I change them right away or not. As you drop the Datasmith nearby you can change them freely for the next round, or do it with BO whenever you feel like. I usually charge with Aegis activated to weather Overwatch and either keep it if I feel like the enemy will disengage next turn, or switch to double fight right away and use pile-in shenanigans to bog down a maximum of stuff in CC and/or really destroy my target.

Remember to absolutely use the reroll 1s in CC Canticle when you make them go double-fist mode because the reroll is really needed with their 4+ WS.

As for Stygies, I ran them once or twice this way and they're great when Infiltrated alongside Dragoons, as long as you roll first turn, else they become a too obvious target. But if you can manage to go first you'll cover more distance with your 8" move, bringing you closer to your targets of choice. Remember you need the Datasmith within 3" for the +3 strat to work though.

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AoS: Nighthaunts 
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut



Glasgow

Well just on my way back from a GT

The good
Breachers these were amazing i had one squad of 6 lose 14 across one game. They soak so much firepower were reasonable in CC. They survived well

Vanguardclumped them into2 blocks of 3x5 man squads putting out 45 great in most games and the double damage on 6's made them reasonable vs the bigger and small stuff

Neutronagas generally great in every game except 1 where they died T1.

The lone lucius engineseer with solar flare really great for that objective grab/behind enemy lines

Ok
Mars Infilrators really good in half my games but really lack lustre in the other half partially down to rolling and needing 6's
Hoplites didn't see a lot of vehicles so the damage was negligable but they held the line a couple of games if the enemy held back no so great.
Servitors parked on objectives killed 1 model in 6 games but freed up my other units.
Ballistarii They were ok but if i wasnt brigadeing i wouldn't use them

The bad
Kastelans against plague bearers/custodes/knights/eldar they were of minimal value the games they were ok in i really didn't need them to deal with my opponents.
Ryzaphrones worst unit in the list 3 games wiped or reduced to 1 model before my turn 1 against a plaguebearer hoard they had no good targets. Against a custodes list they were reasonable. They were however great vs a castellan. Even with the 5++ they struggled with durability

Both units really struggled to justify their high cost
   
Made in us
Heroic Senior Officer





Western Kentucky

So if ryzaphrons and Kastellans were your weak choices what do you think you would take instead, seeing as these are some of our main firepower units? Primarily interested in admech but I assume there are obvious choices outside the codex like a Castellan for example.

What was the issue with the Kastellans? Was it planting their feet made them easy to avoid and predict or was their damage output just kind of minimal?

The Ryzaphrons make sense, anyone with 2 brain cells to rub together is going to be targeting them asap and they just don't have the durability the Breachers have.

If you're not bringing Kastellan and Kataphrons I'm wondering what you would do for pure admech aside from 3 neutron Onagers. I guess a crap ton of ballistaari, maybe arquebus ranger spam, and drills? Perhaps some way to deepstrike vanguard in with plasma too. Dropping all the Kastellans and Kataphrons leaves a ton of points free to dramatically rework the army, that's for sure.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/25 03:21:12


'I've played Guard for years, and the best piece of advice is to always utilize the Guard's best special rule: "we roll more dice than you" ' - stormleader

"Sector Imperialis: 25mm and 40mm Round Bases (40+20) 26€ (Including 32 skulls for basing) " GW design philosophy in a nutshell  
   
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Quick-fingered Warlord Moderatus






 Aaranis wrote:
I'm playing a 2000 pts list with a Cybernetica Lucius Battalion and a Servitor Maniple Agripinaa Battalion, with a single unit of 4 Fistellans with combustors and their Datasmith, and so far they've done great almost each game.

They're nice because you drop them and just sow mayhem in the middle of the table, nobody can ignore 4 Robots punching their way through and they're actually a good option against Knights of all sorts because the Knights' invulnerable save doesn't work in CC. My strategy generally is to clear the screens if there's any in the first turn to make some room for them later. If there's no screens I'll drop them T1. I have them shoot something with their combustors and then charge with the +3 stratagem, they never missed a charge that way and made a 14" charge once thanks to that. Just remember that you can't declare a charge against a unit further than 12".

Are the Combustors worth it now that they cost the same as the Phosphors? I always found that the Phosphor is more useful for clearing infantry in cover.

The interesting thing about Fistbots is that most people don't know what they do. I can imagine melee Knights not taking Sanctuary just because of them, which is a mistake. That being said, Styrixes have built-in Sanctuary, and they can really wreck Robots with a Reaper; if they take Ravager as their relic because they don't see W10 targets, be very careful.

U02dah4 wrote:
Ryzaphrones worst unit in the list 3 games wiped or reduced to 1 model before my turn 1 against a plaguebearer hoard they had no good targets. Against a custodes list they were reasonable. They were however great vs a castellan. Even with the 5++ they struggled with durability

This is what Wulfey and I both noted as well. I think Dagger is the way to go when it comes to Ryzaphrons. And I am not sure if taking the 5++ is even worth it sometimes. Haha.

I will have to try the Breachers... need to figure out how though. I don't want to make another six Kataphron kits. The way I build and paint makes it slow-going for them. Any conversion ideas?

EDIT: And immediately after asking, I see the Ambots. Hmmm...

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/02/24/pre-order-next-week-ambots-titanic-weaponry-and-speed-freeks/

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
What was the issue with the Kastellans? Was it planting their feet made them easy to avoid and predict or was their damage output just kind of minimal?

I would look at rooting Kastelans not as a weakness, but as a cost. You are sacrificing movement to do huge burst, then gain board control in a 36" radius. This style is great for when you are playing objectives. It's a conservative approach. Lock down an area to score primary points, and force them to come to you. A lot of armies, like Tau and Eldar, actually struggle in this sort of battle and can get worn down. (In a way, this is sort of AdMech's MO when it comes to a faction strategy. Even Breachers seem to be good for this sort of thing.)

But even if you need to keep them moving, such as against Lootas and such, Aegis Bots are still solid shooting; a pair of them can still wipe any pretty much any T3 infantry MSU off the board. Very durable too.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/02/25 12:38:34


 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut



Glasgow

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
So if ryzaphrons and Kastellans were your weak choices what do you think you would take instead, seeing as these are some of our main firepower units? Primarily interested in admech but I assume there are obvious choices outside the codex like a Castellan for example.

What was the issue with the Kastellans? Was it planting their feet made them easy to avoid and predict or was their damage output just kind of minimal?

The Ryzaphrons make sense, anyone with 2 brain cells to rub together is going to be targeting them asap and they just don't have the durability the Breachers have.

If you're not bringing Kastellan and Kataphrons I'm wondering what you would do for pure admech aside from 3 neutron Onagers. I guess a crap ton of ballistaari, maybe arquebus ranger spam, and drills? Perhaps some way to deepstrike vanguard in with plasma too. Dropping all the Kastellans and Kataphrons leaves a ton of points free to dramatically rework the army, that's for sure.


An extra Neutronager and more breachers should cover the AV although I might be tempted to go out of faction

Kastellans vs
stacked -1 eldar very little damage as your hitting on 6's
150 plaguebearer hoard T4 5++5+++ very little damage especially with the -1 to hit
Knights their infantry held up in ruins and couldn't be targeted and the knights took very little damage
custodes bikers bunny hopped ruins out of LOS until they could tie them up
scions alpha strike list all their infantry was dead on T1 then very little damage to the supporting vehicles/knight
Harlequinns They were ok but they weren't needed to table my opponent (this was the opponent who didn't target the ryzaphrones)

Overall a combination of -1 to hit and my opponents being able to play round them due to there static nature.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/26 00:23:49


 
   
Made in gr
Stalwart Tribune





Greece

Matt Robertson belgium got an ad mech and ripped some enemies final 5-0 Team winners .

As I said two battalions and a guard spearhead.
From guard only mortars. Gg

3 Robots Cawl 9 destoyers rest battalions breachers all.

Enjoy.

My liist removed spear head guard added snipers and onagers.

Yes a bigade Mars can be also a good point if you take assassin's as well.

I don't know exactly my final decision . If I decide I can work with Mars only then I will try brigade for the extra cp.

But so far two battalions give way more options . Still w8ing for assassin's final relase but I m making my lists 1915 max already.

Tip he used hydralic claws I dont needs to be tested as well. But TBH I can't see why not use one vanguard unit even if only hidden and defending .
Highlight servitors 2* graia in guard detached holding objectives back field. Lol

I'm happy I saw all our members her understand my point about all lists work depending on whom is playing them .

As always I wish no offence I apologise in advance for my poor English or if someone gets offended but it's not my purpose. I only say what I test and believe better offering my advice free and all can take it or leave it . No harm feelings .
Started already testing pure mech in local league 3-0 so far .needs more details but is good.

Personal prefference .

If you use Robots I take neutroons .
If you take balistarii take lascannoms
Inflitrattors 6+
Priests 8+
Troops when upgrade weapons go for 1/5 2/6-8 weapons/ unit size. Omnispex 6+ unit
A mobile force icarus and Las cannons balistaii + mixed ryza destroyed etc seems more hard to play but can b alternate to Mars robots.

Manipuls all lists ...!!!
   
Made in gb
Aspirant Tech-Adept






Have you got a link to the exact list today? Did he take 9 mortars?
   
Made in gr
Stalwart Tribune





Greece

You might find the lists in a post Greekhammer 40k believe I posted then some time ago or via Glasshammer they where there . Unfortunately my tablet does not lt me post the list but I will try to type it .

Mars batt vigilu 4cp

Domi
Engin
9*destroyed
5* breachers hydro
5* breachers hydo
3*robots

Mars batt 5cp
Cawl
Manipuls

3*4 breachers 4 hydrolic arms only

Guard spearhead

Company comm
2*4 seervitor graia
3*3 mortars



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Not sure if yo can see this but here are all the lists

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/25 17:26:25


 
   
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Cool, Thankyou
   
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Heroic Senior Officer





Western Kentucky

Man people are going hardcore on the Breachers overnight. I'm kind of surprised it took us this long after Chapter approved to notice the utility they have. Although I guess they aren't quite as flashy as the destroyers or Kastellans at first glance, or such an obvious buff like regular Servitors got.

'I've played Guard for years, and the best piece of advice is to always utilize the Guard's best special rule: "we roll more dice than you" ' - stormleader

"Sector Imperialis: 25mm and 40mm Round Bases (40+20) 26€ (Including 32 skulls for basing) " GW design philosophy in a nutshell  
   
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Home Base: Prosper, TX (Dallas)

This was a team event so it was a bit modified from normal. Breachers have been on the radar for quite a few people since ca and vigilus dropped. They're just good.

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