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I still don't grok them. But eh, might be a playstyle thing. I don't know what to do with well-rounded elites.

How do people take Breachers anyway? One unit of 6x? Two units of 3x or 4x? And Arc Rifle and Arc Claw?

An AdMech list also did 5-1 at a Major in Canada:

Mars Battalion
Cawl
Manipulus
1x5 Vanguard
1x5 Ranger
3x Plasmaphrons
6x Dakkabots

Cadian Battalion
2x Company Commander
3x10 Guardsmen
Master of Ordnance
3x3 Mortars

Hawkshroud Valiant

Arc Rifle and Arc Claw seems to be the better loadout, their WS is too low to leverage the Hydraulic Claws with any reliability and Torsion cannons have such low range. For a Servitor Maniple a unit or two of 6+ is probably best in order to use the Warlord Trait and Stratagem. Larger units let them screen much better as well.

Is there a concensus on how best to use Plasmaphrons? I'm torn between Mars 'phrons, Mars Bots and Cawl (for the full re-rolls, Noospheric Mindlock and Elimination Volley but no Plasma Specialists)/Mixed detachment or separate detachments of Ryza 'phrons and Mars Bots (for Noospheric Mindlock and Plasma Specialists but no Elimination Volley or Forgeworld Trait bonus)/full Ryza detachment (for Noospheric Mindlock, Elimination Volley and Plasma Specialists but only re-roll 1s and no Wrath of Mars). Basically, how much does Plasma Specialists add compared to the other options? Also - if you aren't going Ryza for the 'phrons is it ever worth using Heavy Grav-Cannons instead of Plasma Culverins?

U02dah4 wrote:

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
So if ryzaphrons and Kastellans were your weak choices what do you think you would take instead, seeing as these are some of our main firepower units? Primarily interested in admech but I assume there are obvious choices outside the codex like a Castellan for example.

What was the issue with the Kastellans? Was it planting their feet made them easy to avoid and predict or was their damage output just kind of minimal?

The Ryzaphrons make sense, anyone with 2 brain cells to rub together is going to be targeting them asap and they just don't have the durability the Breachers have.

If you're not bringing Kastellan and Kataphrons I'm wondering what you would do for pure admech aside from 3 neutron Onagers. I guess a crap ton of ballistaari, maybe arquebus ranger spam, and drills? Perhaps some way to deepstrike vanguard in with plasma too. Dropping all the Kastellans and Kataphrons leaves a ton of points free to dramatically rework the army, that's for sure.

An extra Neutronager and more breachers should cover the AV although I might be tempted to go out of faction

Kastellans vs
stacked -1 eldar very little damage as your hitting on 6's
150 plaguebearer hoard T4 5++5+++ very little damage especially with the -1 to hit
Knights their infantry held up in ruins and couldn't be targeted and the knights took very little damage
custodes bikers bunny hopped ruins out of LOS until they could tie them up
scions alpha strike list all their infantry was dead on T1 then very little damage to the supporting vehicles/knight
Harlequinns They were ok but they weren't needed to table my opponent (this was the opponent who didn't target the ryzaphrones)

Overall a combination of -1 to hit and my opponents being able to play round them due to there static nature.

I dont think Ryzaphrons are that bad, they are one of the better units to get around negatives to hit, as with most of our army. My list they get a +2 to hit so even with Eldar trickery (alaitoc, lighting fast reactions (on units with fly), conceal (on infantry/bikes), and hard to hit for a -3, your Kataphrons are still hitting on 5s rerolling 1s with 6d6 shots, you wont need to over charge and just use plasma specialists so you are still affect str 8 and damage 2. If we go off maths thats still an average of 8 hits vs -3 which is then 4 wounds, they save non and thats 8 damage to a hemlock of which he spirit stones 1 away or 4 damage to a Wave Serpent. We then have + 1 to hit for Kastellans and + 2 to hit for a Skitarii unit of our choice so really we are one of the better armies to deal with armies that toy around with modifiers.

In my experience i have dealt with Eldar shenanigans fairly easy (maybe because i play them too haha!! ) and they can only every stack 1 unit to the -3, usually i see people do 2 units at -2 instead. Shining Spears with all the bells and whistles can be a problem but his putting all his resources into that unit.

Plaguebearers again arent amazing. We have the tools to deal with them at range with our armies abilities to get easy access to +1s and 2s to hit which then counter acts their cloud of flies. With Plasmaphrons again with plasma specials with just a -1 +1 will deal 12.5 hits, 10 wounds, they save 3 and then fail all disgusting resilient saves due to 3 damage a pop. Focus firing a unit at a time will see them evaporate like flies (huehue ) and whilst they can be fairly fast their melee output is quick weak. Yea one unit can once again get buffed by strats but all armies can do that, its something you will have to face in every single army nowadays. Maybe youve never really faced Daemons much in 8th but they certainly arent one of the top tier armies. And like most armies, their characters are the lynchpin of the whole thing, pick out their supporting units and those plaquebearers begin to look like little nurglings.

Custodes are hard for use to deal with if its all Jetbikes, the speed they have along with 4 wounds a pop at a 4++ is quite hard. Your opponent was making full use of the terrain to his advantage and we are one of the more juicier targets for Custodes as they are built to kill elite Factions like ourselves.

Too me just sounds like you had some rough luck, my Plasmaphrons always pull their weight and without Kastellans we would be mediocre if we didnt have their volume of good strength and ap shots. I will definitely say you were getting duped if the Eldar had loads of units on a 6+ to hit for you.... A -1 is only a 16% drop in efficiency, Onagers and Skitarii are still hitting a 4+, Kastellans and Kataphrons are now on a 5+, we have 3 stratagems to boost BS by atleast 1 to then counter act their Craftworld trait. Hemlocks will get a further -1 bit this still isnt a huge deal for us. If it were Tau or Guard then yes thats a huge problem, but we dont suffer the same negatives. Then at least 1 unit can get a -3 with lightning fast reflexes and conceal (which doesnt work on vehicles). Its only 1 unit. and still we have a +2 to hit for any Skitarii unit or if youve gone the Ryza route +2 to hit for your Kataphrons and a +1 to hit for your Kastellans.

Its mobility that kills us as a army and thats why you have people run guard to mitigate that, we can work around these pesky stratagems, we cant work around some one who has greater mobility, numbers and access to fly. We are slowly (no pun intended) getting their with the big boys but we still need another push from GW. But right now we are probably the defacto strongest pure faction when it comes to the shooting phase.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

xlDuke wrote:
Arc Rifle and Arc Claw seems to be the better loadout, their WS is too low to leverage the Hydraulic Claws with any reliability and Torsion cannons have such low range. For a Servitor Maniple a unit or two of 6+ is probably best in order to use the Warlord Trait and Stratagem. Larger units let them screen much better as well.

Is there a concensus on how best to use Plasmaphrons? I'm torn between Mars 'phrons, Mars Bots and Cawl (for the full re-rolls, Noospheric Mindlock and Elimination Volley but no Plasma Specialists)/Mixed detachment or separate detachments of Ryza 'phrons and Mars Bots (for Noospheric Mindlock and Plasma Specialists but no Elimination Volley or Forgeworld Trait bonus)/full Ryza detachment (for Noospheric Mindlock, Elimination Volley and Plasma Specialists but only re-roll 1s and no Wrath of Mars). Basically, how much does Plasma Specialists add compared to the other options? Also - if you aren't going Ryza for the 'phrons is it ever worth using Heavy Grav-Cannons instead of Plasma Culverins?

Its all up to what hole you need to fill in my list, after much thought and jiggling about ive taken a sole under strength Rzya Kastelan in an Aux slot to boost my Ryzaphrons to a +2 and thats where the sweet spot is i find. It gets aroudn many -1 to hit abilities and still stops us from over heating, and then with the +1 to wound and damage it disintegrates the unit its aimed at. However you can still use plasma as other Forgeworlds, yeah you loose out on Plasma Specials but get a better dogma and easier access to a Kastelan for buffs, or you can go for a all purpose build with the grav but i still find plasma to be better vs everything other than GEQ. (I did the maths many pages back and thats the only thing Grav with all the buffs beats Plasma at).

I dont think you can go wrong with any choice of kataphron really, if you need defence go Stygies, Lucius and to some extents Graia. If you need better shooting go Mars or Ryza. If you need charge defence go Agripinaa. The only Forgeworld that doesnt really benefit them is Metallica.

Have a go at play testing a couple builds and see which ones shine for you!

Can someone explain to me how you guys are using Breachers ? On paper they look like they want to be sent in CC in huge packs, maybe accompanied by Dragoons and such. Their guns aren't exactly the best but I guess they can scrape wounds off Vehicles and deal with medium stuff fairly decently.

 deffrekka wrote:

I dont think you can go wrong with any choice of kataphron really, if you need defence go Stygies, Lucius and to some extents Graia. If you need better shooting go Mars or Ryza. If you need charge defence go Agripinaa. The only Forgeworld that doesnt really benefit them is Metallica.

destroyers CAN be good if you take the metallica warlord trait, fallback after getting charged then unleash plasma + flamer in your opponent's face. Its cute but it can work (if your kataphrons survive)

Thanks for the response. Now you've mentioned it I do remember seeing you work out the plasma/grav numbers and think that I thanked you for it, but if I didn't - cheers! I always enjoy playtesting different things but don't have games that regularly and I alternate between my Mechanicus and Orks, so trying out all my ideas takes quite a bit of time. I've played plenty of Stygies and at the moment I'm enjoying Graia, Ryza and Mars with various different units. I'll test out the 'phrons over my next couple of Ad Mech games and see how they work for me.

I dont believe the lists i saw in both tournaments are extremely refined . I dont usually like to destroy my current obvious benefits to overdue some possibly broken spamm. Sure i get the points the breachers being popular but i have personally said use them with the stratagem even before the ca18. They are a great terminator like cheap obj campers like no other in game point efficiency wise. And ofc our best cc unit for screen.

Issues that i would like to adress here beyond obvious are mainly ad mech list building.

1) Mars provide a Cawl benefit for bs4+ that in order to overcome you need cp. So if you face a durable army or need to go over lot of defence etc maybe ovrbuild on robots and kataphrons then i can see Cawl out of the list. + The benefit Mars dual canticles almost make Cawl +1-1 cheat options . Imagine to be able to have any canticle / choice when you got a 5-9 unit of kataprhons . +1 str etc.

2) Ryza destroyers ok but there is the problem . You need ro buff another detachment with vigilus and then again you got 9 destroyers with only ryza buff. With out guard you can move desteoyers woth deep strike as ryza . Even if you play 5+ invu you will not survive . The plan you fail to adress is to drop destroyers with a deep strike else they are dead or out of range . No brainer competitove player will let them survive . Or wont be as effective i just played vs 7 destroyers and just out range them . And plain thinking either

Build different detachment using then in a mixed ryza with another seperate dominus for ?? D6 shots result unstable .

And tax and not able to deepstrike and and and .
Sure i str9 3w is beyond but how . Guard dagger ? No dominus nothing maybe that ryza robots could be a good thing but it will be again a cp drain not worth more than 2 robots cant be melee robots beed to be close to desteoyers and again somewhat i see a more clear option like .
Icarus onagers
Robots mars with breachers etc etc. Stability in results . Even helverins with only -1 can give more stability.

Love the plasma but i dont see how to use them . I use extensive blightlord termies
But deep strike precience etc. I can buff desteoyers only static.

Might try agrippiina for the gem and get at least both kataphrons the ability to rejoin fight and thus make them axtually extreme point efficience bit again i need 9 plasm desteoyers and thst gors beyond my model count if i want breachers .

So i somewhat gonna build around a more flexible list with breachers robots . And tbh why not use a fluffy brigade Mars with assasins to test all units you like and then build upon that .

I find a grrat Mars brigade can have all units from balistarii onahers robots breachers infilttrators usable till you decide your refoned playstyle and build upon a dual or more battalions

. So far thats working for me and yes i would like to use my dragoon lascannon gunline but seems the amount of str 6 -2 ap damage 2 guns are exteeme for investong in non stygies drahoons . If i find a way to build a stygies i might try it but atm

The fact breachers work perfect with Mars Cawl manipulus Robots make an easy objectove secure option.
Cpmbined with my snipers i somewhat outrange so far any single plan i have faced easily . Problem if for some reason enamy got 4 objectoves in his deploy but you just wont let it happen . A threat range of 42 in my army + two vigilus options nothing can stand against a bs 3-4 robot onager kataprhon shooting Mars. Nothing

Maybe destroyers Mars with grav maybe but again Robots . !!! Icarus we got options for risking more

For me breachers are front line moving 6" forward till they encounter the enemy of are wounded enough they need the agripinaa strat. Across your combat/ theres they will eat through a marine squad

xlDuke wrote:
Arc Rifle and Arc Claw seems to be the better loadout, their WS is too low to leverage the Hydraulic Claws with any reliability and Torsion cannons have such low range. For a Servitor Maniple a unit or two of 6+ is probably best in order to use the Warlord Trait and Stratagem. Larger units let them screen much better as well.

Is there a concensus on how best to use Plasmaphrons? I'm torn between Mars 'phrons, Mars Bots and Cawl (for the full re-rolls, Noospheric Mindlock and Elimination Volley but no Plasma Specialists)/Mixed detachment or separate detachments of Ryza 'phrons and Mars Bots (for Noospheric Mindlock and Plasma Specialists but no Elimination Volley or Forgeworld Trait bonus)/full Ryza detachment (for Noospheric Mindlock, Elimination Volley and Plasma Specialists but only re-roll 1s and no Wrath of Mars). Basically, how much does Plasma Specialists add compared to the other options? Also - if you aren't going Ryza for the 'phrons is it ever worth using Heavy Grav-Cannons instead of Plasma Culverins?

In my opinion, Culverin and Phosphor, Ryza with a Ryza Dominus, no Kastelans because Elimination Volley is too much, and Officer of the Fleet with Dagger to hide them and allow them to Outflank.

Ryzaphrons set up in this manner have below average output that is much higher than the average of any other setup, and for only 2 CP per turn.

VladimirHerzog wrote:
destroyers CAN be good if you take the metallica warlord trait, fallback after getting charged then unleash plasma + flamer in your opponent's face. Its cute but it can work (if your kataphrons survive)

Destroyers should never be left alone. They should have a melee screen. Guardsmen are best, but Dragoons, Breachers, Electro-Priests, hell, even a Knight work fine.

U02dah4 wrote:
For me breachers are front line moving 6" forward till they encounter the enemy of are wounded enough they need the agripinaa strat. Across your combat/ theres they will eat through a marine squad

What Forge World do we run Breachers as anyway? Mars, Stygies, or Agripinaa? I can see the argument for any of these. I personally am leaning toward Stygies, actually. This is because you get the Dominus, the infiltrate, and the -1 to hit, which helps bolster his already durable T5 3+/5++ W3 body. The way I see it, double Canticle and improved tax efficiency on Mars is a bit mediocre. And Agripinaa seems to work better for Grav Destroyers, since it costs 3 CP to recycle and redeploy 6x, but you already have the new formation WLT to help revive one model at a time, and the Eye Relic and Overwatch bonuses are intended to aid in shooting.

For breachers agripinaa if you have the CP (3-6)

Stygies if you don't and have the -1

reviveing 1 at a time is a dud mostly because you loose 4-6 in a turn

To be fair, it's a victory in and of itself if something is shooting at your Breachers that can kill 4-6 of them. One huge argument for well-rounded elites is that few people bring weapons specialized for them. (The only things I am truly worried about are the Tau Heavy Burst Cannons and our own Heavy Phosphor Blasters.)

Why invest so much when you can have a true bullet magnet.

Having snipers Cawl Robots breachers possibly 9* onagers maybe even inflitrattors I can definitely tell you it's a hard call to hit 4-6 breachers every turn cause then you would need to withstand a ton of shooting back.

My plan now evolves around making efficient two battalions .

One utilize 1*4 breacher 1*5 breachers and a vanguard then 2 set of sniper teams +1
Those are my take on troops so far heavily altered with rest of list but so far working.

Then I tried mobile list yes stygies dominus it comes down to bs 3 reroll ones but does not utilise I believe all ad mech since stygies got changed .

Most likely any plan you make work and the game shows ATM most units work in games for most armies so again it comes down to playstyle . I believe the easy way is with Robots Cawl etc.

Taking Agripiina or invest all my plan on plsma I don't like . Nor taking again guard .

Agripiina means you gonna be stationry cause 6" is pathetic movement . And if you are not stationary if you gotta move every single round then you most likely don't benefit from manipulus and thus go again 36 range . 36 range it's bad for your point invest you gonna face scare things in 36 " most likely my Robots will shoot you some 50ish shots from 42" and the worse thing is the wrath of Mars coming along with either Robots or infiltrators .

Maybe a second battalions with various options in a mixed situation but again why ?? You need to do extreme things when you got most likely the best shooting you can get in 40"+ the amount of firepower is extreme ATM from a Mars army if you consider an average of str 6 weapons and more than 100 rerolable shots / turn iits extreme anyway you take it but I guarantee the d6 plasma shots gonna have inconsistent results with out deep strike dagger etc.

One thing that is very interesting to note is that the new formation stratagem is locked to the formation keyword, not Forge World. So you can technically run a Ryza Dominus, Ryza Destros, and Agripinaa Breachers.

Why would you take a manipulous for breachers if your 36" range and moving 6" a turn and deploying at the front of your zone you don't need a range boost

xlDuke wrote:

Spoiler:

 deffrekka wrote:



Automatically Appended Next Post:

xlDuke wrote:
Arc Rifle and Arc Claw seems to be the better loadout, their WS is too low to leverage the Hydraulic Claws with any reliability and Torsion cannons have such low range. For a Servitor Maniple a unit or two of 6+ is probably best in order to use the Warlord Trait and Stratagem. Larger units let them screen much better as well.

Is there a concensus on how best to use Plasmaphrons? I'm torn between Mars 'phrons, Mars Bots and Cawl (for the full re-rolls, Noospheric Mindlock and Elimination Volley but no Plasma Specialists)/Mixed detachment or separate detachments of Ryza 'phrons and Mars Bots (for Noospheric Mindlock and Plasma Specialists but no Elimination Volley or Forgeworld Trait bonus)/full Ryza detachment (for Noospheric Mindlock, Elimination Volley and Plasma Specialists but only re-roll 1s and no Wrath of Mars). Basically, how much does Plasma Specialists add compared to the other options? Also - if you aren't going Ryza for the 'phrons is it ever worth using Heavy Grav-Cannons instead of Plasma Culverins?

Its all up to what hole you need to fill in my list, after much thought and jiggling about ive taken a sole under strength Rzya Kastelan in an Aux slot to boost my Ryzaphrons to a +2 and thats where the sweet spot is i find. It gets aroudn many -1 to hit abilities and still stops us from over heating, and then with the +1 to wound and damage it disintegrates the unit its aimed at. However you can still use plasma as other Forgeworlds, yeah you loose out on Plasma Specials but get a better dogma and easier access to a Kastelan for buffs, or you can go for a all purpose build with the grav but i still find plasma to be better vs everything other than GEQ. (I did the maths many pages back and thats the only thing Grav with all the buffs beats Plasma at).

I dont think you can go wrong with any choice of kataphron really, if you need defence go Stygies, Lucius and to some extents Graia. If you need better shooting go Mars or Ryza. If you need charge defence go Agripinaa. The only Forgeworld that doesnt really benefit them is Metallica.

Have a go at play testing a couple builds and see which ones shine for you!

Thanks for the response. Now you've mentioned it I do remember seeing you work out the plasma/grav numbers and think that I thanked you for it, but if I didn't - cheers! I always enjoy playtesting different things but don't have games that regularly and I alternate between my Mechanicus and Orks, so trying out all my ideas takes quite a bit of time. I've played plenty of Stygies and at the moment I'm enjoying Graia, Ryza and Mars with various different units. I'll test out the 'phrons over my next couple of Ad Mech games and see how they work for me.

Im usually a Stygies man myself as well haha and its cool to see another Admech player who also has Orkz haha! They are both very convert heavy armies! Ive never been a Mars person, i used Cawl way back in the Index but not once we had a Codex, i dont really find our canticles that great and im usually just fishing for Shroudpsalm every time. They have a powerful stratagem but im not fond of the increased aura warlord trait (maybe because i dont use Cawl haha!) and the relic axe is a bit silly with ap 5.... I would much prefer it if there was a Generic Arch Magos that gave reroll hits like a Chapter Master for Marines. I used to use Cawl in 7th when Gathering Storm was out and I loved the relics and force orgs he granted access to.

I have ran Graia a few times as at the start it was either that fw or Stygies, but after a few play tests the -1 to hit was a lot better vs most armies. Kataphrons are very new to us now as no one really used them at all before Vigilus. I did used to run a unit of 3 with my Stygies army and they had reasonable success from game to game but they were so expensive, so people havent really gotten round to discovering combos and strats with them yet. Now coming up to 3 months of Vigilus people are starting to uncover there potential but people still tend to gravitate to the big 3, Mars, Stygies and Graia as they are the most blunt dogmas, they are self sufficient.

 Yoda79 wrote:
I dont believe the lists i saw in both tournaments are extremely refined . I dont usually like to destroy my current obvious benefits to overdue some possibly broken spamm. Sure i get the points the breachers being popular but i have personally said use them with the stratagem even before the ca18. They are a great terminator like cheap obj campers like no other in game point efficiency wise. And ofc our best cc unit for screen.

Issues that i would like to adress here beyond obvious are mainly ad mech list building.

1) Mars provide a Cawl benefit for bs4+ that in order to overcome you need cp. So if you face a durable army or need to go over lot of defence etc maybe ovrbuild on robots and kataphrons then i can see Cawl out of the list. + The benefit Mars dual canticles almost make Cawl +1-1 cheat options . Imagine to be able to have any canticle / choice when you got a 5-9 unit of kataprhons . +1 str etc.

2) Ryza destroyers ok but there is the problem . You need ro buff another detachment with vigilus and then again you got 9 destroyers with only ryza buff. With out guard you can move desteoyers woth deep strike as ryza . Even if you play 5+ invu you will not survive . The plan you fail to adress is to drop destroyers with a deep strike else they are dead or out of range . No brainer competitove player will let them survive . Or wont be as effective i just played vs 7 destroyers and just out range them . And plain thinking either

Build different detachment using then in a mixed ryza with another seperate dominus for ?? D6 shots result unstable .


And tax and not able to deepstrike and and and .
Sure i str9 3w is beyond but how . Guard dagger ? No dominus nothing maybe that ryza robots could be a good thing but it will be again a cp drain not worth more than 2 robots cant be melee robots beed to be close to desteoyers and again somewhat i see a more clear option like .
Icarus onagers
Robots mars with breachers etc etc. Stability in results . Even helverins with only -1 can give more stability.

Love the plasma but i dont see how to use them . I use extensive blightlord termies
But deep strike precience etc. I can buff desteoyers only static.

Might try agrippiina for the gem and get at least both kataphrons the ability to rejoin fight and thus make them axtually extreme point efficience bit again i need 9 plasm desteoyers and thst gors beyond my model count if i want breachers .

So i somewhat gonna build around a more flexible list with breachers robots . And tbh why not use a fluffy brigade Mars with assasins to test all units you like and then build upon that .

I find a grrat Mars brigade can have all units from balistarii onahers robots breachers infilttrators usable till you decide your refoned playstyle and build upon a dual or more battalions

. So far thats working for me and yes i would like to use my dragoon lascannon gunline but seems the amount of str 6 -2 ap damage 2 guns are exteeme for investong in non stygies drahoons . If i find a way to build a stygies i might try it but atm

The fact breachers work perfect with Mars Cawl manipulus Robots make an easy objectove secure option.
Cpmbined with my snipers i somewhat outrange so far any single plan i have faced easily . Problem if for some reason enamy got 4 objectoves in his deploy but you just wont let it happen . A threat range of 42 in my army + two vigilus options nothing can stand against a bs 3-4 robot onager kataprhon shooting Mars. Nothing

Maybe destroyers Mars with grav maybe but again Robots . !!! Icarus we got options for risking more

Ive had quite the opposite result, with a base range of 36" and a move of 6" ignoring the heavy penalty they have an effective threat range of 42". Even if they are 8" up on deployment thats a whopping 50" threat range. The tiems where they have been out ranged is where someone deploys in the corner or is out of LOS, but i tend to deploy my Kataphrons centrally in my DZ that way i can reach out to whatever corner people deploy their heavy assets in. Now with the 5++, you can wait to do per match, if your against a shooting heavy list use it, if not then dont. In cover, by an objective and popping AaaC they are stitting pretty on a 2+ 4/5++ which is still quite durable for a 3 wound t5 unit that gets repairs and replenishments from the near by Dominus and Servitors. When stacking Noospheric and Elimination, the amount of fire power they kick out is eye watering and quite often they get around about 20 hits at effective str 9 damage 3 which is just about 16.66666 wounds to anything t7 and below (for 51 damage) so i target multiple units with them to maximize the destructive capabilities.

Whilst Kastelans are good they cant do everything themselves (even though sometimes it feels that way haha ) and they need support, as they struggle slightly vs toughness 7 and above. Then with Icarus Arrays im not the best person on those, i have 9 Neutron Onagers and 1 Icarus Array Onager..... and i love the Neutron a heck of a lot more than the Icarus by a country mile. Whenever i use an Icarus it bounces off of Wraith Serpents, Hemlocks, Stormravens, etc where as my Neutron with a +2 to hit puts those units in the trash can with a kobi. I never leave home without atleast 2 Neutronagers there is a saying in my area which is Apples and Onagers when comparing a vehicle to a Onager and the crab walker always wins. If we still had squadrons i would be running 9 again! I love them!

We cant really shoot down any build of Kataphron atm as we are very early stages, people are only just starting to add Breachers and Destroyers into lists and its a surprise to opponents as they havent been used for a long long time that people forget what they can do.

 deffrekka wrote:
Then with Icarus Arrays im not the best person on those, i have 9 Neutron Onagers and 1 Icarus Array Onager..... and i love the Neutron a heck of a lot more than the Icarus by a country mile. Whenever i use an Icarus it bounces off of Wraith Serpents, Hemlocks, Stormravens, etc where as my Neutron with a +2 to hit puts those units in the trash can with a kobi. I never leave home without atleast 2 Neutronagers there is a saying in my area which is Apples and Onagers when comparing a vehicle to a Onager and the crab walker always wins. If we still had squadrons i would be running 9 again! I love them!

Hmm its weird, for me its the complete opposite, i'll roll 1 shot, then i'll fail to wound and either theyll save with their invuln or i'll do minimum damage. I prefer the icarus array because theres more shots so even if one misses (it sucks when its the daedelus) i still have 9 other shots that can damage and kill stuff. The many shots also doubles as an anti-horde option since everything wounds on a 2+ against most hordes, the damage stacks up really fast. i usually do a 2/1 split between my icarus and neutron since i still do want at least one heavy hitting, durable platform in addition to my kataphrons/ballistari

 deffrekka wrote:

 Yoda79 wrote:
I dont believe the lists i saw in both tournaments are extremely refined . I dont usually like to destroy my current obvious benefits to overdue some possibly broken spamm. Sure i get the points the breachers being popular but i have personally said use them with the stratagem even before the ca18. They are a great terminator like cheap obj campers like no other in game point efficiency wise. And ofc our best cc unit for screen.

Issues that i would like to adress here beyond obvious are mainly ad mech list building.

1) Mars provide a Cawl benefit for bs4+ that in order to overcome you need cp. So if you face a durable army or need to go over lot of defence etc maybe ovrbuild on robots and kataphrons then i can see Cawl out of the list. + The benefit Mars dual canticles almost make Cawl +1-1 cheat options . Imagine to be able to have any canticle / choice when you got a 5-9 unit of kataprhons . +1 str etc.

2) Ryza destroyers ok but there is the problem . You need ro buff another detachment with vigilus and then again you got 9 destroyers with only ryza buff. With out guard you can move desteoyers woth deep strike as ryza . Even if you play 5+ invu you will not survive . The plan you fail to adress is to drop destroyers with a deep strike else they are dead or out of range . No brainer competitove player will let them survive . Or wont be as effective i just played vs 7 destroyers and just out range them . And plain thinking either

Build different detachment using then in a mixed ryza with another seperate dominus for ?? D6 shots result unstable .


And tax and not able to deepstrike and and and .
Sure i str9 3w is beyond but how . Guard dagger ? No dominus nothing maybe that ryza robots could be a good thing but it will be again a cp drain not worth more than 2 robots cant be melee robots beed to be close to desteoyers and again somewhat i see a more clear option like .
Icarus onagers
Robots mars with breachers etc etc. Stability in results . Even helverins with only -1 can give more stability.

Love the plasma but i dont see how to use them . I use extensive blightlord termies
But deep strike precience etc. I can buff desteoyers only static.

Might try agrippiina for the gem and get at least both kataphrons the ability to rejoin fight and thus make them axtually extreme point efficience bit again i need 9 plasm desteoyers and thst gors beyond my model count if i want breachers .

So i somewhat gonna build around a more flexible list with breachers robots . And tbh why not use a fluffy brigade Mars with assasins to test all units you like and then build upon that .

I find a grrat Mars brigade can have all units from balistarii onahers robots breachers infilttrators usable till you decide your refoned playstyle and build upon a dual or more battalions

. So far thats working for me and yes i would like to use my dragoon lascannon gunline but seems the amount of str 6 -2 ap damage 2 guns are exteeme for investong in non stygies drahoons . If i find a way to build a stygies i might try it but atm

The fact breachers work perfect with Mars Cawl manipulus Robots make an easy objectove secure option.
Cpmbined with my snipers i somewhat outrange so far any single plan i have faced easily . Problem if for some reason enamy got 4 objectoves in his deploy but you just wont let it happen . A threat range of 42 in my army + two vigilus options nothing can stand against a bs 3-4 robot onager kataprhon shooting Mars. Nothing

Maybe destroyers Mars with grav maybe but again Robots . !!! Icarus we got options for risking more

Ive had quite the opposite result, with a base range of 36" and a move of 6" ignoring the heavy penalty they have an effective threat range of 42". Even if they are 8" up on deployment thats a whopping 50" threat range. The tiems where they have been out ranged is where someone deploys in the corner or is out of LOS, but i tend to deploy my Kataphrons centrally in my DZ that way i can reach out to whatever corner people deploy their heavy assets in. Now with the 5++, you can wait to do per match, if your against a shooting heavy list use it, if not then dont. In cover, by an objective and popping AaaC they are stitting pretty on a 2+ 4/5++ which is still quite durable for a 3 wound t5 unit that gets repairs and replenishments from the near by Dominus and Servitors. When stacking Noospheric and Elimination, the amount of fire power they kick out is eye watering and quite often they get around about 20 hits at effective str 9 damage 3 which is just about 16.66666 wounds to anything t7 and below (for 51 damage) so i target multiple units with them to maximize the destructive capabilities.

Whilst Kastelans are good they cant do everything themselves (even though sometimes it feels that way haha ) and they need support, as they struggle slightly vs toughness 7 and above. Then with Icarus Arrays im not the best person on those, i have 9 Neutron Onagers and 1 Icarus Array Onager..... and i love the Neutron a heck of a lot more than the Icarus by a country mile. Whenever i use an Icarus it bounces off of Wraith Serpents, Hemlocks, Stormravens, etc where as my Neutron with a +2 to hit puts those units in the trash can with a kobi. I never leave home without atleast 2 Neutronagers there is a saying in my area which is Apples and Onagers when comparing a vehicle to a Onager and the crab walker always wins. If we still had squadrons i would be running 9 again! I love them!

We cant really shoot down any build of Kataphron atm as we are very early stages, people are only just starting to add Breachers and Destroyers into lists and its a surprise to opponents as they havent been used for a long long time that people forget what they can do.

yeap for me a well. I dont see why would i use Plasma when i got Robots with wrth of mars. And most likely nowdays can move shoot or even be a pure 42 unmovable range that is extreme. Range is not enough if you cant deep strike Plasmaphrons then you looking at 36+6 move and that is lower than robots. Any form of gatling and there are a lot will move more and shoot 36 effectively out range and anihilate your unit. Breachers will be in front either way still if i decide to move them i got a threat range 36+6 and second round if i dont move them i still got 36+6 this is the whole point . Breachers tank so not so important but imagine playing vs a Knight list if you dont have plasma with deep strike you rely on your arc breachers to kill knights? will you try to move plasma in range of Castellan that shoots 48? and the other 2 gatling knights enemy advances will shoot 36+12 playing second effectvely out shoot 50% of the games your plasma.

i say take breachers and if knight shoots them thats their job but since i cant deep strike plasma otehr than dagger so pure mech plasma i prefer to take o combination of balistarii lascannon or onagers with neutron. Roots and breachers provide a tought fire base to camp my back field and stay there even if picked to get killed. the question lies who will kill enemy hight T units. Robots wont or are less effective and i wont take Breachers Robots icarus cause we heading towards full antihorde.
Personal preference i take icarus 2 of them inside my lists but with breachers and Robots i consider neutronagers and balistarii.
Since i go that way i also consider i want definetly to have my balistarii helverin range 48 + 10 move or 48+6 stationary that beats most stationary enemies units or onagers 48+++ moveing and stationary to win almost all other 48 range units. Why would i not take more range when my army depends on shooting and celaring idfiled with shooting. 42 range robot str 6 -2 -cover wrath of mars is beyond reason .SO much that even relic missions start to come in favor even vs BA. what we didnt have was effective screen. to stand and fight . well

two batalions
im testing 1*5 breachers and 1*4 vs 1*9 breachers atm.
then i got balistarii lascannons
onager neutron
4 Robots
4 snipers omnispex
vanguard
Cawl dominus manipulus
6 infiltrators Mars as second wrath option
and always 85 points for assasin

Thre has not been anything surviving atm against it. and i get different highligth each game. Want lascannons and neutrons. Robots breachers even sniper took one game for me especially some games ith changlings commanders adn such. if i see char buffer i can take sniper assasins to create a good sniper combo. cullexus bla bla bla . Even 6 infiltrators have won games as they can rop 3rd round for line breaker enemy kills wrath of mars etc etc.

I hear many including myself saying canticles suck. Sure but when you go Mars with the exact setup i just said it provides extreme buffing why. You can practically have 2 buffs anything you like each round and make your army play better in aspects you need.
1) +1 str for rbeacher reroll 1s for breachers reroll morale for big units and i use it since i get 7-9 unit size troops if i m away from my fire base.
2) reroll 1 on shooting when you send onagers trops far away
3) cover every round where other ppay 2 cp to get it first round.

4) low cp usage out of wrath of mars or breacher defence. usually wont need both +1-2 bs buff and wrath i tend to use one or the other most games depending on enemy and 13 cp min. 10 even to start is more than enough to to the job.

why would i need to get plasma when i got breachers shootign to waste with d6 damage vs vehicles where i really need it. that said i know and saw a full kataphron list worked already in tournaments and i dont disagree using them .
i just say i got 9 models atm kataphrons and i m testing with those available atm. and i dont see the usage . PErsonaly id use them every single game if i could have them Ryza and deep strike 100000%. No deep strike i wont cause they become #1 easy prio target. and i dont want that. i want my enemy to have to decide Robots Breachers Onagers to waste shooting. thats me. And since i want my shooting antitank to actually outrange or equal to most heavy hitters like Castellan i dont take Plasma even if i love it and even if it works nice etc. Vs a good opponent example you play vs me you need to bring your plasma in range of my 42 range robots to shoot if you can something important and most likely you wont have serious target. for any reason ANY and most likely 60%+ i will outrange you or shoot you first its done deal. robots are effecively -3 shooter s destroyers its done and thats why i changes from icarus antihorde to Robots. -2 - cover str 6 sure but icarus is -1-2 ap average. effective but not as i see current meta. i got an army atm with aveage -2+ ap.

why take squishy destroyers with all that shooting for a d6 shot? the game results of a 9*breacher unit will be 9d6 cant get from 9 till 54 plasma shots. 54 win you a game 9 loose one. its a gamble i will not take play a dice game vs TAU? its 2 risky. vs Knights? no point. Now plasma with 42 range can be something to look at .First round move 6 and 36 42 threat second round 36+6 stationar can be good especially if you manage to send 3 wound shots of. Wont target castellan wont kill bane blade or helverins etc and there again i dont want to dedicate points.IF it take 3-4 dont worth the fuzz since Ad mech really shines with big units. 5 balistarii with lascannons have been for me as Stygies lethal. +2 to hit eve moving is no issue.
ITs a heavy antitank list and i believe we are the best Army to be one bs3+ rerolling all not only miss. So antihorde So -1 to hit care less So flier care so most likely with 6+ range extremely effective army. SO i build on endurance as much as possible thats what we miss nothing else.

108 points 6 infiltratos with wrat of mars 10 models even are a glass cannon not 500 points destroyes with dominus. if i go first and kill 400-600 points of my enemy i got a clear advantage.

Hey Folks,

I have a tournament in a couple of days, bringing Admech and knights.

Can anyone confirm if knight of the cog works on a super heavy detachment and you just cherry pick which unit(knight) you want it on

Many thanks

 Ideasweasel wrote:
Hey Folks,

I have a tournament in a couple of days, bringing Admech and knights.

Can anyone confirm if knight of the cog works on a super heavy detachment and you just cherry pick which unit(knight) you want it on

Many thanks

no, sorry - the stratagem works on a super heavy, but you will only get the Canticles ability if ALL of your units in that particular detachment have the canticles ability - i.e. only use this stratagem is you are taking a super-heavy auxillary detachment.

Ah so solo raven castellans benefit most then.

K thanks

So it looks like I will be facing a bunch of Wolves in power armour this weekend (doubles match, 1500 each)

AdMech 1500:
Ryza Servitor Maniple Battalion:
9x plasma Kataphrons, Dominus (Warlord), Manipulus, 3x Dragoons, 2x Neutron Onagers, 2x Arquebus Ranger Squads., Servitors

Graia Battalion:
2x Enginseers, 3x 5 Vanguard + 1 Plasma, 5x Infiltrators


Knights 1500:
Hawkshroud:
Crusader+ RFBC
Gallant + Paragon Gauntlet & Warlord
Valiant


Does anyone have any tips? I don't believe I have fought Space Wolves much in 8th.
Is there anything that is a must kill? or that I should look out for?

 The Forgemaster wrote:

 Ideasweasel wrote:
Hey Folks,

I have a tournament in a couple of days, bringing Admech and knights.

Can anyone confirm if knight of the cog works on a super heavy detachment and you just cherry pick which unit(knight) you want it on

Many thanks

no, sorry - the stratagem works on a super heavy, but you will only get the Canticles ability if ALL of your units in that particular detachment have the canticles ability - i.e. only use this stratagem is you are taking a super-heavy auxillary detachment.

Yeah, this is a case where RAW is really stupid, but RAI is clearly supposed to operate a certain way. Contact the TO if possible.

 The Forgemaster wrote:
So it looks like I will be facing a bunch of Wolves in power armour this weekend (doubles match, 1500 each)

AdMech 1500:
Ryza Servitor Maniple Battalion:
9x Kataphrons, Dominus (Warlord), Manipulus, 3x Dragoons, 2x Neutron Onagers, 2x Arquebus Ranger Squads., Servitors

Graia Battalion:
2x Enginseers, 3x 5 Vanguard + 1 Plasma, 5x Infiltrators


Knights 1500:
Hawkshroud:
Crusader+ RFBC
Gallant + Paragon Gauntlet & Warlord
Valiant


Does anyone have any tips? I don't believe I have fought Space Wolves much in 8th.
Is there anything that is a must kill? or that I should look out for?

What sort of Wolves list do you expect to face? Herohammer style or the usual elites army? The former is actually really tough. My friend was best SW last year, and his list was practically every character in the codex plus a Falchion and some normal MEQs for CP. Anyhow, just got to play patiently and hold objectives.

Which Kataphrons will you be bringing? And going to tell you straight out that Dragoons are useless against SW. They attack first on the charge, and they hit really hard against the Dragoon's statline.

 Suzuteo wrote:

 The Forgemaster wrote:

 Ideasweasel wrote:
Hey Folks,

I have a tournament in a couple of days, bringing Admech and knights.

Can anyone confirm if knight of the cog works on a super heavy detachment and you just cherry pick which unit(knight) you want it on

Many thanks

no, sorry - the stratagem works on a super heavy, but you will only get the Canticles ability if ALL of your units in that particular detachment have the canticles ability - i.e. only use this stratagem is you are taking a super-heavy auxillary detachment.

Yeah, this is a case where RAW is really stupid, but RAI is clearly supposed to operate a certain way. Contact the TO if possible.

 The Forgemaster wrote:
So it looks like I will be facing a bunch of Wolves in power armour this weekend (doubles match, 1500 each)

AdMech 1500:
Ryza Servitor Maniple Battalion:
9x Kataphrons, Dominus (Warlord), Manipulus, 3x Dragoons, 2x Neutron Onagers, 2x Arquebus Ranger Squads., Servitors

Graia Battalion:
2x Enginseers, 3x 5 Vanguard + 1 Plasma, 5x Infiltrators


Knights 1500:
Hawkshroud:
Crusader+ RFBC
Gallant + Paragon Gauntlet & Warlord
Valiant


Does anyone have any tips? I don't believe I have fought Space Wolves much in 8th.
Is there anything that is a must kill? or that I should look out for?

What sort of Wolves list do you expect to face? Herohammer style or the usual elites army? The former is actually really tough. My friend was best SW last year, and his list was practically every character in the codex plus a Falchion and some normal MEQs for CP. Anyhow, just got to play patiently and hold objectives.

Which Kataphrons will you be bringing? And going to tell you straight out that Dragoons are useless against SW. They attack first on the charge, and they hit really hard against the Dragoon's statline.

Not sure yet, the plan is to be mostly surprised by the opponents armys. but I suspect more likely the usual sort of elites/ troops list, probably wolfen, long fangs, primaris thunderwolves, psykers etc.

sorry, thought I mentioned it - Plasma Destroyers.

the dragoons are there more as a speed bump to hold up the charge a bit, probably will operate them individually and go for things like line breaker, prevent backfield vehicles from shooting for a turn etc.

hopefully the Gallant & Valiant will be a nice big distraction for the wolves - and ruch forward to stomp them in shrot range fire and stomps.

Why are you taking a Valient, from memory they're really, really bad.

 kastelen wrote:
Why are you taking a Valient, from memory they're really, really bad.

not that bad, just shorter range guns - fine if you and the enemny are both going towards each other. but doesn't require so many CP to function. (Also the Knight player wanted a full knight lance and these are all the knights we had...)

They are also running Hawkshroud which for a strat one knight can supporting overwatch like Tau (S7 3D6 flamer...) just in case they charge the gallant

it is a bit more of a fun game rather than super-competative.

Can anyone who’s run Graia help me out with the following Refusal to yield scenarios. I think I’m playing it wrong, how many refusal to yield rolls would I need to make for the below if my model is a 1W model like a Ranger

1. I fail my armour save versus a damage 3 weapon.
2. I fail all my armour saves against a volley of 10 bolter shots


Cheers

 Ideasweasel wrote:
Can anyone who’s run Graia help me out with the following Refusal to yield scenarios. I think I’m playing it wrong, how many refusal to yield rolls would I need to make for the below if my model is a 1W model like a Ranger

1. I fail my armour save versus a damage 3 weapon.
2. I fail all my armour saves against a volley of 10 bolter shots


Cheers

1. One roll
2. 10 rolls

https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/warhammer_40000_adeptus_mechanicus_en.pdf

Thanks forgemaster, that was my understanding but my friends argued the first scenario was 3 rolls

 The Forgemaster wrote:

 Ideasweasel wrote:
Can anyone who’s run Graia help me out with the following Refusal to yield scenarios. I think I’m playing it wrong, how many refusal to yield rolls would I need to make for the below if my model is a 1W model like a Ranger

1. I fail my armour save versus a damage 3 weapon.
2. I fail all my armour saves against a volley of 10 bolter shots


Cheers

1. One roll
2. 10 rolls

https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/warhammer_40000_adeptus_mechanicus_en.pdf

If the unit only has one model in it, and of those 10 shots you fail your save on the first one and that kills it, the remaining 9 shots are gone because there are no other models to allocate them to. The shots all happen at the same time, as do the deaths. So after all shots have been resolved saved/failed and models have been killed, then you roll for your refusal to yield. That applies to mortal wounds as well. It's not a FnP style roll that applies to damage of an attack, it's why you still get your refusal to yield after your fanatical devotion on priests.