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VladimirHerzog wrote:

 0XFallen wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/03/13/chaos-space-marines-focus-the-lord-discordant/

Damn that character gives me admech vibes from looks and rules, meanwhile we get the manipulus lackluster aura and equipment

I dont get the hate for the manipulus that a lot of people seem to be expressing, hes overcosted but his datasheet isnt bad, i've had tons of fun playing him in different lists. Warhammer isnt all about competitive.

This has nothing to do with competetiv.
First: he is bloated and not appealing model wise.
Second: he has no impact whatsoever with weapons that are low range, with low bs and arent that good anyway he will seldom do a wound. Neither will his rules matter much

The Manipulus isn't particularly exciting and he's a bit overcosted but Bolster Weapons is absolutely fantastic and he adds a bit of bite to our backline if enemies get too close. AP-1 2 damage autohits and Mechadendrites will help keep away some harassment units. I would be surprised if it doesn't turn into a staple for competitive and casual lists alike, I can't really see myself leaving it out of any lists. Extra range on cognis flamers, plasma culverins, heavy phosphor blasters, cognis heavy stubbers, radium carbines and galvanic rifles? I'll upgrade an Enginseer to a Manipulus in a blink of an eye. I think it'll win games.

@Xlduke

I’m not losing games by being 3-6” out of range. I tend to lose for other reasons

Where TPM is a must IMO is the Ryzaphron build - 36" +5.9" movement (to stay in the aura) +6" Bolster means ~47.9" on very deadly plasma. Which means that this squishy gang can be fitted into the ruin/behind a LoS break, bare the mortar fire, and roll out to wreck a havoc at the Lascannon-ish range. Kastelans can use the TPM to extend their range when locked in place as well, although LoS-breaks are more of a problem for the turret mode.

Bolstering the movement however is very disappointing under the aura activating "at the start of the Movement phase" rule. This activation restriction is the reason why this model is not worth the 90 pts (with the Magnarail and his statline as the second reason). The fact that he can't DS and add the bonus to charge, when you need this additional inch the most. The thing that you have to work it around with the otherwise useless Solar Flare and Lucius FW (so losing the more exciting combos with Drills and Graia for instance) is just... numbing. If this bolster allowed the charge after advance at least, then maybe I could justify this part of his skill somehow.

 Ideasweasel wrote:
@Xlduke

I’m not losing games by being 3-6” out of range. I tend to lose for other reasons

Me too, a lot of the time. I don't mean that it will always make a difference, but I think that it will impact the game regularly. I do often find that some of the things that like to shoot my Kastellan Robots are out of range for the heavy phosphor blasters, for example. It also means some of our units can deploy farther back into our deployment zone, or spread out a bit more to deny space or reduce the chances of being consolidated into. Maybe I'm pushing them a bit much because I'm quite tired of having so many redundant Enginseers

Manipulus is the reason behind ad mech going top again + ca18 point decrease .

I will try to say it simple so most can understand it .

I got let's say a ranger with galvanic and you got a ranger as well but I got 6+" and you don't from manipulus . Now imagine all guns Robots plasma etc. The extra range win games!!

 Yoda79 wrote:
Manipulus is the reason behind ad mech going top again + ca18 point decrease .

I will try to say it simple so most can understand it .

I got let's say a ranger with galvanic and you got a ranger as well but I got 6+" and you don't from manipulus . Now imagine all guns Robots plasma etc. The extra range win games!!

Not really current top lists still run stygies 6 dragoons, only snipers and enginseers being units with point decreases.

 0XFallen wrote:

 Yoda79 wrote:
Manipulus is the reason behind ad mech going top again + ca18 point decrease .

I will try to say it simple so most can understand it .

I got let's say a ranger with galvanic and you got a ranger as well but I got 6+" and you don't from manipulus . Now imagine all guns Robots plasma etc. The extra range win games!!

Not really current top lists still run stygies 6 dragoons, only snipers and enginseers being units with point decreases.

I can't really believe TPM being useful for something else than Kataphrons and Robots. +6" on Rangers is ok-ish I guess, having RF activated at 18" is a nice gimmick, but would that be a game winning? Do Onagers need the +6" so badly?

By the way, how does the Culexus' fight last stratagem and Dragoons combo in the tournaments? Having been playing lately, but in theory, this stratagem solves the biggest problem of the Dragoons - being charged. The low range of 3" will make it tricky to operate though.

I actually think the TPM is very useful. He greatly extends the range of the Dakkabot alpha strike, and range is the primary deciding factor on who has to move first in a shooting matchup. For example, in Tau, TPM means they don't get to do the first turn Kauyon deathball thing as easily.

I do think that he could stand to go down to 60-75 points.

Tpm is useless in one of the longest range armies in the game admech improvement is down to the price drop

 0XFallen wrote:

VladimirHerzog wrote:

 0XFallen wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/03/13/chaos-space-marines-focus-the-lord-discordant/

Damn that character gives me admech vibes from looks and rules, meanwhile we get the manipulus lackluster aura and equipment

I dont get the hate for the manipulus that a lot of people seem to be expressing, hes overcosted but his datasheet isnt bad, i've had tons of fun playing him in different lists. Warhammer isnt all about competitive.

This has nothing to do with competetiv.
First: he is bloated and not appealing model wise.
Second: he has no impact whatsoever with weapons that are low range, with low bs and arent that good anyway he will seldom do a wound. Neither will his rules matter much

well i dont think we can judge the model by its looks since its a 100% subjective thing. i personally love how he looks.
most of our characters arent judged by their damage output, and having a flamer to defend the castle if it does get assaulted is super good.
his aura is super strong and versatile, adding range to dakkabots that got locked in the center of the map is brutal, helping fulgurites get a T1 charge is also strong, or just helping reposition whatever unit to get a clutch objective secure is really good.

U02dah4 wrote:
Tpm is useless in one of the longest range armies in the game admech improvement is down to the price drop

what makes the tpm good is its versatility, you dont HAVE to use only his range buffing. i've had lots of success using him with stygies fulgurites and with ryzaphrons

Neither buffs work for me, i'm never out of range for shooting for the things that I need to be in range and the extra movement isn't enough to justify the cost.

I also dont get why the datasheet for the manipulus isnt the same as a dominus..only BS3 on a HQ unit of one of the most shooty army in the entire game.

Still, because the ranged abilities of the dominus and manipulus are so poor it's exactly why the aura is so important and why it falls short.

What versatility. He is ineffective in damage output he doesnt buff movement enough to make a credible difference in the majority of gamea and we dont need a range buff.

Doing a range of things badly is not versatile in a meaningfull way. Her 40-50pt model unfortunately hes priced at double that

U02dah4 wrote:
What versatility. He is ineffective in damage output he doesnt buff movement enough to make a credible difference in the majority of gamea and we dont need a range buff.

Doing a range of things badly is not versatile in a meaningfull way. Her 40-50pt model unfortunately hes priced at double that

You should ignore his pts cost at the moment since its almost certain that he'll get a point cost reduction in the future (GW said that he was supposed to be a middle point between the enginseer and dominus).

It all depends how you play him, mine has done a lot more damage in the games that i've played hmi than my dominus ever did, i pair him with my fulgurites and move up the map quickly with the flamer, advancing until he can get in melee, where he can do a decent bit of damage.

saying that his buffs dont make enough of a credible difference is also wrong, lets say youre playing on a dawn of war deployment, that means that you have 24" to get to the enemy lines (since most people will deploy stuff right up to their edge). if youre playing drillless fulgurites, you're gonna give them a 9" scout move pregame. you start the game at 15". Without the manipulus, you move up 6" and are left with a 9" charge to make, meaning that you have a 27.78% chance of making it. With the manipulus, you only need a 7" charge, which gives a 58.34% success rate. add a command reroll to the charge and you get 52% vs 80% success rate. thats huge for a unit that wants to get into melee as fast as possible.

The range buff is less interesting but giving kastellans 42" means that its harder for the opponents to get out of range of them, you can easily cover 3-4 objectives with one unit with that much range. the same applies to destroyers except with them its even better since it allows them to stay on an objective for Aquisition at any cost while still being able to shoot at stuff. Against an army with similar range to ours , gettign an extra 6" means that we can sit back with our heavy weapons and be in range, while the opponent HAS to move theirs to get in range (if youre playing stygies you basically give heavy weapons -2 to hit). Speaking of stygies, the extra range lets your gunline add more distance, assuring you benefit from the dogma.

Just because he isnt OP doesnt mean he's a bad model.

I guess we play completely different games

Why would you play Drilless, footslogging, Fulgurites to begin with? :p If you are not starting, or (what's as likely to happen) your opponent is not deployed at the border of his zone, your Fulgurites are dead turn 1. If you happen to play Hammer and Anvil - your Fulgurites are dead turn 1. In most scenarios vs event players, Fulgurites aredead turn 1, without being hidden and transported. You can drop them via Lucius, and jump TPM with Solar Flare if your really want Fulgurites without the Drill, but other than that - TPM wont save neither help them too much. Dragoons are a better idea to try turn 1 charges, but they are not capitilising from the bolster that much, having 19" of initial movement to begin with (plus they outrun the TPM without the 5+ Advance).

Besides... When TPM enters the battle - he dies. W4 is not going to keep him alive for long. A bunch of Catachan chaff (or anything but... Idk, Skitarii/Firewarriors grade chaff) will melt him away easily.

The additional range at least gives a serious buff to the 36" plasmas and robots, that's where TPM shines.

dadamowsky wrote:
I guess we play completely different games

Why would you play Drilless, footslogging, Fulgurites to begin with? :p If you are not starting, or (what's as likely to happen) your opponent is not deployed at the border of his zone, your Fulgurites are dead turn 1. If you happen to play Hammer and Anvil - your Fulgurites are dead turn 1. In most scenarios vs event players, Fulgurites aredead turn 1, without being hidden and transported. You can drop them via Lucius, and jump TPM with Solar Flare if your really want Fulgurites without the Drill, but other than that - TPM wont save neither help them too much. Dragoons are a better idea to try turn 1 charges, but they are not capitilising from the bolster that much, having 19" of initial movement to begin with (plus they outrun the TPM without the 5+ Advance).

Besides... When TPM enters the battle - he dies. W4 is not going to keep him alive for long. A bunch of Catachan chaff (or anything but... Idk, Skitarii/Firewarriors grade chaff) will melt him away easily.

The additional range at least gives a serious buff to the 36" plasmas and robots, that's where TPM shines.

i play drillless because people around here have a stigma against forgeworld because of a few horror stories from OP units in the past .
Also, the drill doesnt let you run a full size squad of fulgurites.
And if my opponent wipes my fulgurites on turn 1 i dont mind that much since it means that my other wincons werent targetted, i usually have fulgurites, onager and ryzaphrons are main sources of damage so no matter how i play, one of them is dying on turn 1.

I get that from a competitive point of view the tpm isnt the best, but you cant call him terrible since in most games hes gonna be played(casually) hes really fun and brings something that admech lacks, mobility.

Nah, he's terrible. His benefits are so bad that, even if he were 10 points cheaper than the Dominus, I'd never run him. Hell he could be 1 point more expensive than the Enginseer and people would still not run him.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Nah, he's terrible. His benefits are so bad that, even if he were 10 points cheaper than the Dominus, I'd never run him. Hell he could be 1 point more expensive than the Enginseer and people would still not run him.

You're overreacting now. 31 pts TPM would make him auto-include in every army. For the sole sake not being Enginseer :p

Imo his price tag should sit at 60pts. Also the movement aura should get a bonus - either more significant numbers, either additional effect. Or... Be an aura that works by default in the movement bolster mode, switchable at the start of the Movement phase. This simple change would make this model so much more useful - as he could've ride in transport, or be DSed, and bring actually some added value the same turn he arrives.

If you play competitive and you can't find TPM priceless then please think again.

Today top army in ad mech is kataphron spam. I don't know where you play or what you play but I got results from February
And I have posted as well the results unbeaten...

I use ATM 15 breachers 9 plasma destroryes with robots and TPM. I dont understand what you play and bumbling but I have out shot castellan custodes ad mech Tau orks sisters got 3 prizes I'm undefeated in local tour . And if you don't like me go see belgium undefeated lions England winners same winner English Gt Fe weeks ago.

I don't know really if I have to say it differently but the list is broken good. Broken .

You want a gun line then your kataphrins are a 48" Inc threat . 36+6+6 move . What you talking about you don't understand competitive wise what is the difference ??? Especially vs what armies . You don't see why an onager needs +6" when your enemies that actually threats to your onagers are 48"? I don't get it .

You don't understand you forcing your enemies from deployment they can't even hide a knight in corner . You got the range to threat all map from deployment . Making enemies play aggrwively you believe have no advantage ???

Plz I can't read no more of this.

Play the list and you LL understand .
As for movement buff.
The TPM is buffing all gun line or movement of kataphrons.

When you play a mobile army like custodes that gonna run an hide you don't find +1 +1 valuable ?? Have you ever need to run the field with troops? Now your troops that already win gun line armies win many melee fights can also run and move faster to take obj claim or clear obj behind enemy lines etcetc.

I have tabled most armies and I struggled after the 1-2-3 round to claim the game . Not anymore .

I don't know what you talking about but for the list with breachers TPM is my center piece more than Cawl.

Tip I can't say all those super things I improved playing the list nor I LL spend time to post it. Just trust me and play it it's top TOP

VladimirHerzog wrote:

U02dah4 wrote:
What versatility. He is ineffective in damage output he doesnt buff movement enough to make a credible difference in the majority of gamea and we dont need a range buff.

Doing a range of things badly is not versatile in a meaningfull way. Her 40-50pt model unfortunately hes priced at double that

You should ignore his pts cost at the moment since its almost certain that he'll get a point cost reduction in the future (GW said that he was supposed to be a middle point between the enginseer and dominus).

It all depends how you play him, mine has done a lot more damage in the games that i've played hmi than my dominus ever did, i pair him with my fulgurites and move up the map quickly with the flamer, advancing until he can get in melee, where he can do a decent bit of damage.

saying that his buffs dont make enough of a credible difference is also wrong, lets say youre playing on a dawn of war deployment, that means that you have 24" to get to the enemy lines (since most people will deploy stuff right up to their edge). if youre playing drillless fulgurites, you're gonna give them a 9" scout move pregame. you start the game at 15". Without the manipulus, you move up 6" and are left with a 9" charge to make, meaning that you have a 27.78% chance of making it. With the manipulus, you only need a 7" charge, which gives a 58.34% success rate. add a command reroll to the charge and you get 52% vs 80% success rate. thats huge for a unit that wants to get into melee as fast as possible.

The range buff is less interesting but giving kastellans 42" means that its harder for the opponents to get out of range of them, you can easily cover 3-4 objectives with one unit with that much range. the same applies to destroyers except with them its even better since it allows them to stay on an objective for Aquisition at any cost while still being able to shoot at stuff. Against an army with similar range to ours , gettign an extra 6" means that we can sit back with our heavy weapons and be in range, while the opponent HAS to move theirs to get in range (if youre playing stygies you basically give heavy weapons -2 to hit). Speaking of stygies, the extra range lets your gunline add more distance, assuring you benefit from the dogma.

Just because he isnt OP doesnt mean he's a bad model.

its always good to assume your opponent knows how to play they know your stygies they see your fulgurites they deploy 3-6 inches back your charge wont come close to makeing it your fulgurites are out in the open without their invul buff. It doesnt end well for them. Mostly castellans would be deployed forward giving a range of half your opponents deployment zone without moving T1. sure the manipulus is mildly better but that mars list is still only mediochre as a good player can play around it. The main problem they have is they are stationary and so LOS blocking terrain messes them up.

many things are not bad without being op the manipulous is bad and points is always a factor look at kataphrons post and pre chapter approved from terrible to reasonable mostly due to points


Automatically Appended Next Post:

dadamowsky wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Nah, he's terrible. His benefits are so bad that, even if he were 10 points cheaper than the Dominus, I'd never run him. Hell he could be 1 point more expensive than the Enginseer and people would still not run him.

You're overreacting now. 31 pts TPM would make him auto-include in every army. For the sole sake not being Enginseer :p

Imo his price tag should sit at 60pts. Also the movement aura should get a bonus - either more significant numbers, either additional effect. Or... Be an aura that works by default in the movement bolster mode, switchable at the start of the Movement phase. This simple change would make this model so much more useful - as he could've ride in transport, or be DSed, and bring actually some added value the same turn he arrives.

Sarcasm is clearly lost on some people 10-15pts more than an enginseer id run him routinely 20pts fair price in select lists only at 60pts i wont run him


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Yoda79 wrote:
If you play competitive and you can't find TPM priceless then please think again.

Today top army in ad mech is kataphron spam. I don't know where you play or what you play but I got results from February
And I have posted as well the results unbeaten...

I use ATM 15 breachers 9 plasma destroryes with robots and TPM. I dont understand what you play and bumbling but I have out shot castellan custodes ad mech Tau orks sisters got 3 prizes I'm undefeated in local tour . And if you don't like me go see belgium undefeated lions England winners same winner English Gt Fe weeks ago.

I don't know really if I have to say it differently but the list is broken good. Broken .

You want a gun line then your kataphrins are a 48" Inc threat . 36+6+6 move . What you talking about you don't understand competitive wise what is the difference ??? Especially vs what armies . You don't see why an onager needs +6" when your enemies that actually threats to your onagers are 48"? I don't get it .

You don't understand you forcing your enemies from deployment they can't even hide a knight in corner . You got the range to threat all map from deployment . Making enemies play aggrwively you believe have no advantage ???

Plz I can't read no more of this.

Play the list and you LL understand .
As for movement buff.
The TPM is buffing all gun line or movement of kataphrons.

When you play a mobile army like custodes that gonna run an hide you don't find +1 +1 valuable ?? Have you ever need to run the field with troops? Now your troops that already win gun line armies win many melee fights can also run and move faster to take obj claim or clear obj behind enemy lines etcetc.

I have tabled most armies and I struggled after the 1-2-3 round to claim the game . Not anymore .

I don't know what you talking about but for the list with breachers TPM is my center piece more than Cawl.

Tip I can't say all those super things I improved playing the list nor I LL spend time to post it. Just trust me and play it it's top TOP

well the difference i put my kataphrons on the frontline and then roll them forward unless im up against a hoard. So T1 24" forward already 36" from weapon range 6" from movement T2 im hitting the backboard

Again my onager move forward behind my infantry extending their LD buff with the 48" they can back board T1 so unless your playing some weird multitable game the extra range is wasted

Honestly guys, the question is really simple: How many points would you pay to add 6" to a unit's guns OR 1" move/advance/charge? Most armies don't even have this option. I think it's extremely valuable (and definitely not bad), even if 90 points is a bit more than I would like to pay for it.

[spoiler]

 Yoda79 wrote:
If you play competitive and you can't find TPM priceless then please think again.

Today top army in ad mech is kataphron spam. I don't know where you play or what you play but I got results from February
And I have posted as well the results unbeaten...

I use ATM 15 breachers 9 plasma destroryes with robots and TPM. I dont understand what you play and bumbling but I have out shot castellan custodes ad mech Tau orks sisters got 3 prizes I'm undefeated in local tour . And if you don't like me go see belgium undefeated lions England winners same winner English Gt Fe weeks ago.

I don't know really if I have to say it differently but the list is broken good. Broken .

You want a gun line then your kataphrins are a 48" Inc threat . 36+6+6 move . What you talking about you don't understand competitive wise what is the difference ??? Especially vs what armies . You don't see why an onager needs +6" when your enemies that actually threats to your onagers are 48"? I don't get it .

You don't understand you forcing your enemies from deployment they can't even hide a knight in corner . You got the range to threat all map from deployment . Making enemies play aggrwively you believe have no advantage ???

Plz I can't read no more of this.

Play the list and you LL understand .
As for movement buff.
The TPM is buffing all gun line or movement of kataphrons.

When you play a mobile army like custodes that gonna run an hide you don't find +1 +1 valuable ?? Have you ever need to run the field with troops? Now your troops that already win gun line armies win many melee fights can also run and move faster to take obj claim or clear obj behind enemy lines etcetc.

I have tabled most armies and I struggled after the 1-2-3 round to claim the game . Not anymore .

I don't know what you talking about but for the list with breachers TPM is my center piece more than Cawl.

Tip I can't say all those super things I improved playing the list nor I LL spend time to post it. Just trust me and play it it's top TOP

Have to agree with yoda on this. I went 4-1 last gt, ending 14th out of 110, with a far from optimised list. Only had 12 breechers, bots, cawl, tpm, no destroyers...rest was chaff. Tpm is awesome, the additional threat he makes all our stuff is great and you can almost guarantee being able to touch whatever you need to and his lance was useful finishing off threats. Definatly worth looking into

and I will look at my last GT and can think of only a single round where the extra range would have changed my target. If our average range was 12-24 i would pay more for it but when your 36"+ often with no penalty to move and fire you don't need it.

Count yourselves what units do you fire at and how often would you still fire at them if you didn't have the range boost

U02dah4 wrote:
and I will look at my last GT and can think of only a single round where the extra range would have changed my target. If our average range was 12-24 i would pay more for it but when your 36"+ often with no penalty to move and fire you don't need it.

Count yourselves what units do you fire at and how often would you still fire at them if you didn't have the range boost

My thoughts exactly. The only reason for TPM being auto-include in my Ryzaphrons build is their squishyness - with the TPM I can relatively easily hide them in the ruins or out of LoS, and peek from behind it without being harassed by Punisher Tank Commander. Breachers might as well use this range, but I see them more as a sturdy screen, not something I expect to shoot and kill. For a Cawlstar I'd pick up Manipulus as well. But any other troops, or vehicles? For a pure Metalika list Manipulus adds actually a lot of movement, but it's rather a niche for semi-competitive play.

VladimirHerzog wrote:

The range buff is less interesting but giving kastellans 42" means that its harder for the opponents to get out of range of them, you can easily cover 3-4 objectives with one unit with that much range. the same applies to destroyers except with them its even better since it allows them to stay on an objective for Aquisition at any cost while still being able to shoot at stuff. Against an army with similar range to ours , gettign an extra 6" means that we can sit back with our heavy weapons and be in range, while the opponent HAS to move theirs to get in range (if youre playing stygies you basically give heavy weapons -2 to hit). Speaking of stygies, the extra range lets your gunline add more distance, assuring you benefit from the dogma.

Just because he isnt OP doesnt mean he's a bad model.

Wow. Local meta there is quite different to here if you can cover from one location 3-4 objectives without running into LOS issues. Ranges above 36" aren't all that important here due to LOS being more of issue and covering more than 2 objectives from one position is pretty hard(and range isn't going to do it)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Suzuteo wrote:
Honestly guys, the question is really simple: How many points would you pay to add 6" to a unit's guns OR 1" move/advance/charge? Most armies don't even have this option. I think it's extremely valuable (and definitely not bad), even if 90 points is a bit more than I would like to pay for it.

Depends obviously on guns and units ;-) For guns it's combination of weapon type, range and unit speed. Critical bands are 12-18 and 24-30"(more so with heavy). Oh and 6-12 for deep striking units.

But for some 36" range weapon it's less of issue particularly if non-heavy.

And movement boost helps most assault units. It's super valuable for say h2h infantry(which is why evil sun trait is best for orks) but then you have shooty unit it's pointless. Evil sun flashgits would be total junk for example.

U02dah4 wrote:


many things are not bad without being op the manipulous is bad and points is always a factor look at kataphrons post and pre chapter approved from terrible to reasonable mostly due to points

which proves my point, the points drop is expected to come soon, i'm pretty confident that once he's appropriatly priced he'll be included in a lot more lists and get less flak.

tneva82 wrote:
Depends obviously on guns and units ;-) For guns it's combination of weapon type, range and unit speed. Critical bands are 12-18 and 24-30"(more so with heavy). Oh and 6-12 for deep striking units.

But for some 36" range weapon it's less of issue particularly if non-heavy.

And movement boost helps most assault units. It's super valuable for say h2h infantry(which is why evil sun trait is best for orks) but then you have shooty unit it's pointless. Evil sun flashgits would be total junk for example.

Sure. But I can think of a lot of matchups where forcing an enemy with 36" to move can be advantageous. Take Triptides as just one example.

Furthermore, 42" pretty much guarantees you will outrange anything with less than 36" range that is not a fast vehicle.

Finally, consider that a 16.67% increase in range translates into a 36.11% increase in coverage.

I personally included a TPM in my AdMech gunline list ASAP, and while I only was able to play a few games before leaving on business, the results were good. If anything, it really gave me some really useful flexibility for the Cawlstar.

VladimirHerzog wrote:

U02dah4 wrote:


many things are not bad without being op the manipulous is bad and points is always a factor look at kataphrons post and pre chapter approved from terrible to reasonable mostly due to points

which proves my point, the points drop is expected to come soon, i'm pretty confident that once he's appropriatly priced he'll be included in a lot more lists and get less flak.

all that proves is he is rubbish now anything else is speculation points changes are unlikely till CA and thats a long wait

Seriously, let's tamp down the hyperbole. He's overcosted by like, 15 points. And he's not garbage. He has a unique force multiplier with an opportunity cost of 60 points. Maybe you can use those 60 points better than to give some units 6" more range, but some armies might really want that, such as those running a 6x Cawlstar or Ballistarii.

I mean, do I really need to remind you all that we ran Dominuses overcosted by 30 points with an opportunity cost of 90 points before this? And 6" range is more impactful than reroll ones, given we have a Canticle for it. (In the early codex days, some of us were so fed up with how overcosted Dominus was that we were thinking Cawlstar + Stygies, and we use Canticle to give the Stygies rerolls instead of paying for a Dominus.)

The Dominus was LITERALLY our only HQ for a short time period, so I don't think that argument works.