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lash92 wrote: So I can also reroll hit rolls of 1 in overwatch? Oo
no , because overwatch is resolved like a normal shooting attack . since it doesnt specify "as if it were the shooting phase" the dominu's aura doesnt apply (because it specifically works in the shooting phase)
Waaaaghmaster wrote: Is this specifically addressed anywhere that could be referenced?
You can check the FAQs for Eldar Fire and Fade stratagem, Eldar Swooping Hawk Grenade Packs, the Tyranid Swarmlordb abilities, and of course, the Auspex Scan stratagem itself. GW consistently rules that "as if" means that for the duration of the action, you pretend as if it were that phase for all rules interactions.
If this weren't true, then most Ynnari tricks don't work, Daemons don't fly during Psychic phase moves, and No Method Beyond... is a rules implosion.
But if that's not enough, I have an email chain where the organizers of LVO agreed on this ruling, with the implication that is it were not the case, then Ynnari have been getting away with murder for a really long time.
It depends on the rule if it says reroll hit rolls of 1 like a SM CPT then yes
If it says reroll hit rolls of 1 in the shooting phase like a dominous then no you dont because it is not the shooting phase and the rule appplies to the phase of the game not the model.
Lvo specific rulings arnt evidence unless your dealing with lvo
There are plenty of discusions on this in ymdc thats where you should go for rulings
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/04/05 17:16:13
Today's report. A semi-competitive ITC vs 1kS at 1750. Cut to the Heart. He had Magnus, Tzangors on discs, 2x Tzangor casters, Rubrics with gatling riding the Rhino, Sorcerer on a disc, Heldrake, FW 1kS Dred. I had the Cawlstar: 4 Kastelans, 4 Destroyers (Plazma+Flamers), 4 Breachers (2x Arc Claws, 2x Hydraulics), Culexus, Drill+12 Fulgurites, Manipulus, and some Skitarii. Pure Mars.
He made a mistake and charged Magnus straight into my lines. Crashed a unit of Skitarii guarding a chokepoint, but left him in the open for my return shooting. However, due to poor rolls, I had to literary shoot my entire army into the Magnus - burnt almost all of my CPs and barely killed him. The last 2 wounds were taken by Manipulus flamer... Magnus had -1 hit, and 3++, but I expected him to drop way sooner.
As he was combat heavy, and I had my Kastelans Binharic-rooted, I had to rely on Breachers and Skitarii to sustain the damage. And... they did. Skitarii obviously died, no surprise, but they've bought just enough time and stopped enough Tzangors, so my Breachers could tank longer. I was pretty much clearing 1kS with Kastelans. He got to Robots in the end, but too late to twist the game.
Unfortunately, my opinion about the Cawl being a big and pricy pushover was confirmed again - he failed to kill the Sorcerer on a disc, while having his ass handed to himself in return. Cawl almost died in combat when charged and attacked first (!!!), unable to kill the Sorc, while he was pounded for 5 wounds. Ate 2 wounds smite. And to add the burn, he ate the freaking pistol shot - that's what took him out eventually... Manipulus was not too great in combat either - collapsed immediately vs Tzangors. At least his flamer got a few models out. Culexus whiffed - he dealt close to no damage this game and, sadly, didn't affect the casting too much.
So conclusions:
1. I do not expect Admech's characters to do anything in CC. It's not a surprise, we knew about it. But it's still worth reminding from time to time. Especially Cawl, whose combat abilities and survivability are just a big disappointment.
2. The Canticles manipulation however made a difference - having constant rerolling 1s in the fight, and +1S, gave my Skitarii, Fulgurites, and Breachers, an edge.
3. I will play with Breachers a little bit more - they seem to sustain a lot of damage. Especially when you manage to set up two layer screening, having cheap Skitarii in the first one to take an early blow.
4. Hydraulic Claw is not worth it though, not in this number of models at least. Too many misses.
5. Drill and Fulgurites - fantastic, as always.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2019/04/06 09:38:02
@dadamowsky
1. Cawl is a bully. Don't charge him into things that can actually fight back. Unless you're desperate, I guess.
2. Yeah, the +1S, morale, and reroll can be all be useful at times.
5. Even as pure Mars? Interesting.
I'm actually reconfiguring my list to be pure AdMech to satisfy the new ITC faction rules. My issues:
1) Breachers seem popular, but I have no idea how to use them, and being trapped on a business trip in Japan means I won't get to learn before BAO rolls around. At the same time, without Dagger, the Ryza Destroyers are very vulnerable.
2) What the hell do I do for indirect fire? I guess I have to take Assassin and Infiltrators, or I just won't be able to touch enemies hiding behind buildings?
3) Big mixed FW Brigade or a Mars + Stygies Battalions?
So it seems like I will be building a faux-Soup army around a Krast Styrix and Cawlstar? Or do I want to do Justin Lois and bring Stygies Drill + Fulgurites + Dragoons to help apply pressure? Not so sure if AdMech can cut it in melee against some of the stronger fighting armies.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/06 16:55:57
Suzuteo wrote: @dadamowsky
1. Cawl is a bully. Don't charge him into things that can actually fight back. Unless you're desperate, I guess.
2. Yeah, the +1S, morale, and reroll can be all be useful at times.
5. Even as pure Mars? Interesting.
While Drill can't take benefits from the Canticles, Fulgurites sure can. Having a chance to switch one fo the Canticles to RR1s in combat, while having any other as the second one for the rest of the army, is a boon. As you can basically play two different games in different parts of the table.
I'm actually reconfiguring my list to be pure AdMech to satisfy the new ITC faction rules. My issues:
1) Breachers seem popular, but I have no idea how to use them, and being trapped on a business trip in Japan means I won't get to learn before BAO rolls around. At the same time, without Dagger, the Ryza Destroyers are very vulnerable.
Can't say I'm expert, however they are tanky. And I guess that's their purpose. Their Arc Rifles will not kill a knight, but to degrade a common vehicles (or the upcoming Demon Engines spam lists) it should be helpful. IMO treat them as the core of your 2+ layered screen - let the Skitarii up front take a first blow of... anything, while keeping Breachers behind so the Skitarii wouldn't be wrapped in combat easily (big bases of the Breachers helps at blocking sliding shenanigans).
2) What the hell do I do for indirect fire? I guess I have to take Assassin and Infiltrators, or I just won't be able to touch enemies hiding behind buildings?
In a pure Admech it's the DS. I dig Lucius Corpuscarii for the task, Infiltrators will be a bit cheaper option as well. I haven't played with Peltasts, they do have no-LoS shooting, maybe that's what you're looking for.
3) Big mixed FW Brigade or a Mars + Stygies Battalions?
Too much tax in a Brigade IMO. I mean, 3x Balistarii and 3xEradinagers are not a nightmare to pay for, but if I am building a streamlined list I'd rather have those 180 points put elsewhere. Double Battalions is my go-to.
So it seems like I will be building a faux-Soup army around a Krast Styrix and Cawlstar? Or do I want to do Justin Lois and bring Stygies Drill + Fulgurites + Dragoons to help apply pressure? Not so sure if AdMech can cut it in melee against some of the stronger fighting armies.
Well, off the top of my head, the Brigade I am thinking of costs roughly 1518 points; Dominus, Manipulus, Enginseer, 6x5 Rangers, 8x Infiltrators, 2x4 Servitors, 3x Icarus Crawlers, 2x1 Lascannon Ballistarii, 6x Dragoons. Probably a mix of Mars, Stygies, and Graia.
With a minimal Krast Styrix, I have less than 10 points or so to play with. Haha...
It's doable of course, but you're losing a lot of goodies IMO. Dragoons without the -2 to hit will be a lot more squishy. You have barely a room to squeeze the Assassin in - you basically have to give up Manipulus and reduce Infiltrators. I haven't played with Brigade in a long time however, maybe it's viable in the end - 15CPs are tasty indeed.
After playing all these games with ad mech 10 league and 10 in tourneys i have to say .
TRanforming the list towards solo ad mech with with breachers is a good point. breachers are tought enough with 1-2+ save
i use 18 cp now 3 battalions and i spamm 5+ invu.
As of late i tested 3 destroyers for mars and 4 Robots while i made my vigilus detach ment Ryza for a nasty group of plama and breachers with one dominus. Seems able to do extra flavor thingsbut lost some survivability.
Ryza plasma and breachers with dominus work fine got rerolls all cc miss and rr 1 wounds in cc from Ryza is superb switching some hydralic. Ryza plasma hides in range and use aquisitiona t all costs to survive + shroudpsalm thats it.
you need to play 1-2-3 more defensive vs antilists
like heavy disindegrator spamm etc.
At that point playing first is somewhat vital cause you are playing a full troop army. if your enemy play Deldar you cant survive but if play first if play smart with range and yo manage to hit first in some cases the damage out put is extreme. beyond extreme.
I can see astra militarum battery working with the list beyond assasins but i want to remain pure mech.
If you add guard battery and mortars is not bad .The assasin is vital vital vital.
i use 2-4 breacher Groups in front since thats their job. rangers i got in the back cause i use snipers. and last games vanguard in between to make my hq actually worth it in melee vs troops etc. At this point i will repeat the list requires to be Hordish to work. a unit of 7 breachers and a units of 6 destroyers are not working. 15 breachers will tank almost anyhting long eough for Robots plasma rya plasma wrath of mars etc to wipe antyhting of the table. Thats it. a simple 3-4 Robot with Cawl and plasma destroeyrs as gun line rest there to protect them thats it. All infantry making enemy heavy guns obsolete and all your army able to secure obj etc.
Eliminate enemies for 2 rounds then push forth. if you play first its game breaking. Shroudpsalm pick if you have to round 1-2 morale also good first rounds then utilize melee canticles.
i will not take again onagers that cant fight melee like robots cause it locks my list. same goes for rest of units ec with known issues of mech.
Rows of breachers and destroyers fall back move shoot etc fight back in melee and so forth.
Thanks for the advice. Your list actually sounds like Don Hooson's, which featured 10 Blightlord Terminators acting as a shield/anvil for Double Avenger Knight, Helverins, and Plagueburst Crawlers. (You have 2x4 Breachers acting as a shield/anvil for 4x Kastelans and 6x Ryzaphrons.)
Which Assassin options are you using now? Culexus and Eversor?
Still having troubling fitting everything in now. I think I need to be more conservative with the CP and build around the Knight.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/04/07 03:58:49
Yes the idea I v been working for some years now . From Abbadon cultists and bliightlordd with cloud of flies. And k had tested full terminal list with blooghtlorrds and tsons . Still this is a gun line to begiin with. Termie lists work diiffently .
When I said to use plasma blighlord WTH clud of flies Don was playing other options. Tried to xplain to many people how plasma was op and is for me but Nerf arrived back then now for me plasma is the way to go. Sure there are other nice options but Robots ≤ all.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/07 08:26:29
Personally, with how CP hungry armies have became, my #1 is Callidus. #2 Culexus
Draining Ork out of CPs round 1 is substantial help in countering Lootas for instance. They need More Dakka and shoot twice to be relevant, and yet Ork needs Green Tide, Gretchin shield and rerolls at the same time. My last match against Ork he used 10 CPs round 1, without me even having the Callidus. Other armies, from each faction, are also draining their CP pools very fast - imagine Vect costing 5 CPs
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/07 10:24:05
House Krast Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment - 475
Lord of War - 475 1x Knight Styrix - Volkite Chierovile, Reaper Chainsword, Graviton Crusher, Warlord: First Knight (-1 CP), Relic: Headsman's Mark (-1 CP)
Total: 1898 points 13 CP (-4)
I immediately identified some problems:
-Not much infantry; difficult to control ground
-Not much fighting to protect the Kastelans aside from the Knight
-High HQ costs
I could just drop the Assassins and add more Vanguard. But signs point to me cutting the Ryzaphrons and their HQ, which are very vulnerable without the Dagger and consume CP anyway. I guess this would mean the entire detachment can become Graia. I would then add some Breachers, which I now sort of realize act as a glue for pure AdMech lists:
Spoiler:
Mars Battalion Detachment - 1210 Cohort Cybernetica (-1 CP)
House Krast Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment - 475
Lord of War - 475 1x Knight Styrix - Volkite Chierovile, Reaper Chainsword, Graviton Crusher, Warlord: First Knight (-1 CP), Relic: Headsman's Mark (-1 CP)
Total: 1905 points 13 CP (-3)
Given a choice between Cohort and Maniple, I went with Cohort for the first turn flexibility. I don't want to take a Dominus and sink 4 CP into these Breachers anyway. Is this a mistake? And people favor Graia Vanguard over Rangers, yes?
I will also try playing around with making a Brigade list, but what does everything think about this one to start?
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/04/08 05:17:24
Beyond the knight which i sont use since its Fw and i can only wish you luck i have to say again the plan with breachers and destroyers requires somewhat a spam unit.
That said i ll try to explain a few key points.
2 battalions one mars one Ryza. Can work but using the knight and the robots and the kataprhons you become extremely cp hungry to reach full potential.
Robots you need max 3-4 else you risk becoming again stationary. 3-4 Robots actng as antihorde threat gives you the result you need while if you get locked you risk only 330 points not 660. Taking 6 Robots you define a stationary gun line and that is what we try to avoid some years now.
What you need to be effective.
1) 3 Robots with wrath of mars do the job
2) 3 destroyers MArs to use 2 cp and buff robots and 3 plasma with +1 to hit
3) Ranger to fill the MArs detachemnt.
Ryza.
1) Dominus with hermeticon
2) 2 big groups of breachers 4-5 each
3) A big unist of Plasma destroyers 5+
you can use dominus for +1 to hit on them so full overcharge and ofc the vigilus detachment for 5+ invu flavor.
Drawbacks i already gone to 3 battalions for cp and i m afraid you might find the same results as well. I m not sure about the points but you dont need any more troops and if you have more points servitors can hold objectives and use for replenish.
You need to have units of 4+ breachers to be a ble to screen effectively and i can understand you got a knight that surelly helps but breachers are cheap 2+ bla bla bla infantry.
The knight provides what? he tanks in front of your gun line ? charge forth is your assault then what. Robots have a role and its not plasma destroeyers role and its not breachers role. you will not be affective or able to utilise breachers or destroyers by just adding them to a list.
Current game meta has extreme advantages when used as plan. adding a knight will not give you better results cause all heavy guns of the nemy will target him .
while if you got tought breachers as screen the enemy will have to waste his big guns towards cheap units . The point is to become somewhat
1) a Hight T list like knight list?
2) a good hordish list with tons of infarntry
3) elit Army.
This combination requires some spamming in troops to be affective.
if you dont use elimination volley if you dont use wrath of mars Cawl rereolls etc etc then you dont have the max ad mech result.
to recap why we settled this list. and i m not trying to convince anyone just writting how the concept works after reading your lists and 100% sure you ll not have the results im talking about.
Wanna play a knight perfect. setup onagers Dragoons stygies etc so you ll make a good -1 to hit hight T list etc etc moveing bla bla. its a plan.
I want to take advantage of.
1) Cawl extreme shooting buff ad mech got so i can deal with enemy Tanks -1 to hit fliers etc. He is the main buffer and he is making the list aboe average or simple shooter.
2) double canticles. Breachers T5 3W 1-2+ armor 30 points usually has. shroud and +1 str. reroll miss in melee and reroll 1 woundng from Ryza. making them a terminator equal unit TROOP. you dont care if you loose him you dont care if you move it it can give you arc shots vs all things bad for you like vehicles planes transports knights. since even if you pass only one shot its D6 damage. + aquire at all costs 4 cc att
3) Ryza plsma or destroyers plasma in general. Atm with 5+ invu and a ryza specialist d6 shots its broken for 48-49 points.
using the +1 to hit or +2 if ytou make a large group MArs you can actually have the only Plasma able to hit fliers and eliminate them. SO you got a 42+6 +1-2 bsd6 plasma 2-3 wound / shot rerolling hits wounding on 2-4? .
So to recap. Wanna play priests onagers dragoons knight good for you same utility use 3 cp play priests againe tc. Dragoons -2 to hit onageer move shoot icarus bla bla.
Wanna ustilize hordish breachers shooting etc go for it but do it. Make a plan and play it. and im talking about extreme competitive games where you chasign results stability etc.
mixing will not provide sorry. Because in my humble opinion the game atm provides results with numbers. Especially if we talking about troops.
thats my 50 cent. so far.
p.s The list with onagers icarus knight helverins dragoons and priests i use in 1500 games and i got 6-0 so far its a high tough army list close to knight list with -1 to get hit and some dominus.
@Yoda79
You're probably right. I think I should go with what I am familiar with rather than try to relearn a new method from scratch. And what I know best are Dragoons, Kastelans, and tons of infantry.
Plus, I don't have enough Breachers, and the only reason why 3x3 Breachers might work out is that I have my Destroyers magnetized.
Next list is going to be a Brigade. Either pure Stygies or mixed to get Graia infantry and Mars Infiltrators. Basically, just have a very annoying and mobile AdMech army supporting a Knight that has access to 18 CP. Going to have to think a bit on it though.
House Krast Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment - 475
Lord of War - 475 1x Knight Styrix - Volkite Chierovile, Reaper Chainsword, Graviton Crusher, Warlord: First Knight (-1 CP), Relic: Headsman's Mark (-1 CP)
Operative Requisition Sanctioned - 85 (-1 CP)
Total: 2002 points 15 CP (-4)
Two points over right now, but this is the concept.
Mixed Forge Worlds. Dragoons can infiltrate turn one. Knight moves up with them and the Enginseers; one is a repairman, anti-Psyker, and carries Mask for Dragoon/Infiltrator buffs; the other carries the Eye for shooting buffs. Ironstriders and Crawlers be chilling with the Dominus. Assassin and Sicarans deep strike to delete trouble enemies. Rangers and Servitors camp objectives and deny deep strike. Lots and lots of CP for the Infiltrators, Dragoons, and Knight to use.
Oh, and given I have Eye and a Krast Styrix, this list is going to give any Chaos player a really, really bad day.
Initially tried to fit Breachers in, but the more and more I thought about it, the less appealing it seemed. This list has options to handle vehicles and melee so eh.
Thoughts?
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/04/09 15:07:38
The above looks like it has a fair bit of bite especially the 3x agripiina dunecrawlers.
My only thoughts to counter would be only 30 troops means you’d maybe need to be a bit careful with objectives and board control. Losing the -2 on the stygies dragoons as well is a bit of a bummer.
Good luck in your test games (when you entirely get time to play em lol)
Yeah. Icarus Crawlers are still amazing value in this meta.
There are also the Servitors and the shooting vehicles to camp objectives, but yeah, it can be a concern.
Most armies have some way to deal with minus to hit. I don't think it is good protection anymore except against very unprepared players. The key is really to just get them down the field along with the Knight.
I might cut another 2 Infiltrators (which is less than ideal, since 8 seems to be a magic number in my math) to get the 2 points; fortunately, I have the Eversor if I really need to double down on anti-horde. I will probably use the spares to upgrade the Skitarii to Vanguard and give two of the Crawlers their Heavy Stubbers.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/09 16:05:44
I'm considering using the 3CP outflank IK strategm to bring my knight styrix on from a board edge then flame the crap out of something with the rad cleanser and try and charge in. I dont have to worry unless something can ignore overwatch beacsue that rad cleanser will take care of anything bar hordes trying to charge me.
Melta/fusion/haywire is an issue but people having a knight in their backfield are probably too distracted to do anything about what I have in front of them.
Just beware that this forces you to take an Imperial Knight and not an Mechanicus.
So you lose machine spirit resurgent and 5+++ against Mortal Wounds which makes Haywire even deadlier.
Doctrine Foreas Servo-skull. So it just gives the datasmiith ability to another hq or does it change the Robot protocol the same round? What you think about it ??
I have had it ruled both ways. In my opinion the instant change is obviously better but not broken. I just wish GW would completly get rid of the 'cant move when in double shoot mode'. Its not needed, if they get tagged they cant shoot or fall back far enough to not get tagged next turn plus the save is increased. Is that not enough of a punishment for double shoot? Why do we have the only unit in the game that to fire twice we can never move again?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/12 08:15:41
House Krast Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment - 475
Lord of War - 475 1x Knight Styrix - Volkite Chierovile, Reaper Chainsword, Graviton Crusher, Warlord: First Knight (-1 CP), Relic: Headsman's Mark (-1 CP)
Operative Requisition Sanctioned - 85 (-1 CP)
Total: 2002 points 15 CP (-4)
Two points over right now, but this is the concept.
Mixed Forge Worlds. Dragoons can infiltrate turn one. Knight moves up with them and the Enginseers; one is a repairman, anti-Psyker, and carries Mask for Dragoon/Infiltrator buffs; the other carries the Eye for shooting buffs. Ironstriders and Crawlers be chilling with the Dominus. Assassin and Sicarans deep strike to delete trouble enemies. Rangers and Servitors camp objectives and deny deep strike. Lots and lots of CP for the Infiltrators, Dragoons, and Knight to use.
Oh, and given I have Eye and a Krast Styrix, this list is going to give any Chaos player a really, really bad day.
Initially tried to fit Breachers in, but the more and more I thought about it, the less appealing it seemed. This list has options to handle vehicles and melee so eh.
Thoughts?
The list looks fun, the list could be a great shock to Chaos players! However how are you going to get the repairman enginseer to keep up with the knight/Inflitrators - he's graia so no deep strike or infiltrate? Also enginseers are very easy to pick off with assassins now,
Envii wrote: I have had it ruled both ways. In my opinion the instant change is obviously better but not broken. I just wish GW would completly get rid of the 'cant move when in double shoot mode'. Its not needed, if they get tagged they cant shoot or fall back far enough to not get tagged next turn plus the save is increased. Is that not enough of a punishment for double shoot? Why do we have the only unit in the game that to fire twice we can never move again?
that would probably be too strong, or warrant a points increase.
Changing protocols shouldnt be free and if you allwoed the bots to move while in double shoot, you would make their main counter way worse.
Sure it feels bad when the melee unit gets locked in combat with them, but you shouldp robably look at your screen if that happens too often