Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
If you guys want to try more CC-orientated lists in pure AdMech I still strongly recommend to try out some Fistellans. I've been playing a unit of 4 almost every game lately and they've been great every single time. My main build is a unit of 4 + Datasmith in a Cohort Cybernetica, as Lucius, so I pay 2 CP for the Datasmith + Bots to teleport (alternatively you can Solar Flare the Datasmith but I keep my relic slot for the Autocaduceus), drop them T1, pop the +3" charge strat and charge them somewhere. Depending on the situation I'll pop Binharic Override after the charge move to make them fight twice so that they can consolidate twice and likely engage the maximum of stuff possible at once.
The opponent cannot ignore them and this unit have punched through a LOT of stuff. They're usually accompanied by my 3 Dragoons in CC, and in the meantime I have 6 Agripinaa Plasmaphrons in a Servitor Maniple (so 5++ and respawnable with the WL trait), 3 Onagers and 4 Arquebuses pounding the enemy at the same time.
Could work played as Stygies too, Infiltrate the Bots, the Dragoons and the Drills and your opponent is facing a lot of stuff at once T1.
The Bots are fairly tough to crack if they fail their charge too, it's 24W at T7 that have a 4++ against shooting. I have them with Incendine Combustors for auto-hit fun and they've been efficient with that, although they rarely shoot more than 1 turn as I lock them in double fight mode early on.
Yes still using snipers assassin's robots and 20+ kataprhons had a final vs death watch last weekend on a tourney lost but still second not bad . We replayed the game mid week and was draw so I got still a v v good feeling on the liist.
It's going well and I like it I saw some good options like the one with custodes bikes as third detachment or mixing the list ryza .
Tried some combos but so far I'm still on Mars all out . Still need some testing for variety but if I take ryza plasma I loose the Cawl star and the manipulus buff. And after all the list most likely wns because it has 48+ threat range not 36 and rreroolls everything in shooting and miss in melee if you loose that smewhat I see the purpose change . Sure I love ryza plasma but Mars Robots are always need for pesky enemies or even wrath of Mars plasma if you have to and no damage replace mortals .
My thinking when we try to figure out extreme competitive armies like top tournament armies then you need to consider what you play vs other options. That's how the guard battery started to dominate in lists . Infantry ordered cp battery mortars best in game utility points results.
Same goes for melee ad mech . Fiststellans are v good but as the protocols are now they got no invu in melee. Making them bad really bad vs most melee and for 300+ + datasmith why invest? Better of with a knight add some helverins good +3 cp and good results. He can fall back and charge shoot as well and do all you want with relics and warlordtraiits . There is no meaning . And this is the main reason I don't play a melee list like suuzuuteo which I like and use ein fluffy games .
Competitive the ability to have Cawl and wrath opf Mars can't be matched. And because priests don't have a good transport ( I don't play fw drills) and because they are still a risk you need to invest and have semi synergy with the list.
Same for onagers if you read the 2000 pages we talking you LL find me saying don't leave home with out 3 . Icarus probably one of the best efficient tank with current meta but nothing in our army can fall back shoot fly advance charge bla bla .
So why invest in a list I can get better in other armies . So decide what you like and build the list accordingly . You can't have robots onagers and 1 0 rangers and believe you gonna anything . A single troops will lock robots in place . A fearless blob will hold your expensive robots for ever ? If yo face real threats like a smash captain you dead .
And I can say examples all day try to make your lists best as possible . Can't have a gun line with nothing to protect it . That was our problem early on and continues . Balistarii onagers robts kataprhons all super shooters but amstaric easy to lock gun line . Can't use them all the same time .
Still I trust the onagers balistarii or kataphrons with big units on priests as counter to work fine? Lure your enemy with shooting 3 onagers 1 neutron 2 iicarus balistarii lasc or kattarhojs and hold your priests midish as possible use mobility to lure enemy counters to your priests . Can work till the time you LL face bigger mobile guns. Hf
Xp. I use 2*6 breachers you use 4 melee robots . You use datasmith I us dominus let's say we are same points .
I will have 3 save like you and 18+18 hp you have 24 hp total I just hermeticon and reroll all my hits for 3* att/ breacher d3 damage and it's even worse if I should you with d6 damage. And I'm troop will take the obj we fight upon etc etc . Why when 4 robots properly screened with wrath of Mars are feared Moore than primarchs .
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/04/19 23:01:30
To be clear, I am figuring out what list to use starting in May in the run up to Bay Area Open. Haha. I am probably going to lose very badly given how little prep time I have, but at least it will probably be fun.
My worries with Fistbots are two-fold:
1) As Yoda mentioned, they don't have invulnerable saves in melee. Meanwhile, Fulgurites are frighteningly hard to kill once they siphon something. 3++/5+++, 6++++ with Graia and 2++ with Acquisition stratagem!
2) They cannot pass through ruins. This has been supremely important in my assault game with Catachans. I can already imagine Dragoons and Drills having problems. Throwing Robots in is doubling down on one particular vulnerability.
But otherwise, I see them as a pretty good replacement for Dragoons in some situations, actually.
The sheer fact they dont have melee invuls and are still quite pricy for...moderate strength vs cost makes me wanna stay the hell away from fistbots.
Pretty much means they either have to bully something (bad unit to bully with we have other things for that) or hope to wipe it before it strikes back.
An ork with an idea tends to end with a bang.
14000pts Big 'n Bad Orkz
6000pts Admech/Knights
7500pts Necron Goldboys
House Krast Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment - 475
Lord of War - 475 1x Knight Styrix - Volkite Chierovile, Reaper Chainsword, Graviton Crusher, Warlord: First Knight (-1 CP), Relic: Headsman's Mark (-1 CP)
Transport - 132 1x Termite Assault Drill - Stormbolter
Elite - 176 11x Fulgurite Electro-Priest
House Krast Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment - 475
Lord of War - 475 1x Knight Styrix - Volkite Chierovile, Reaper Chainsword, Graviton Crusher, Warlord: First Knight (-1 CP), Relic: Headsman's Mark (-1 CP)
Operative Requisition Sanctioned - 85 (-1 CP)
Total: 1989 points 13 CP (-3)
Leaning toward Balanced because I'm a wuss that likes some familiarity. Haha.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/04/20 09:12:33
House Krast Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment - 475
Lord of War - 475 1x Knight Styrix - Volkite Chierovile, Reaper Chainsword, Graviton Crusher, Warlord: First Knight (-1 CP), Relic: Headsman's Mark (-1 CP)
Transport - 132 1x Termite Assault Drill - Stormbolter
Elite - 176 11x Fulgurite Electro-Priest
House Krast Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment - 475
Lord of War - 475 1x Knight Styrix - Volkite Chierovile, Reaper Chainsword, Graviton Crusher, Warlord: First Knight (-1 CP), Relic: Headsman's Mark (-1 CP)
Operative Requisition Sanctioned - 85 (-1 CP)
Total: 1989 points 13 CP (-3)
Leaning toward balanced because I'm a wuss that likes some familiarity. Haha.
One question, why take smoke launchers on the onagers, when your other option is data tethers, which allow you to hit regular infantry with the icarus for 1CP?
But yes I would lean towards the Balanced list as well.
The Forgemaster wrote: One question, why take smoke launchers on the onagers, when your other option is data tethers, which allow you to hit regular infantry with the icarus for 1CP?
But yes I would lean towards the Balanced list as well.
Because there are times when you have to move these Crawlers into range, and getting -2 to hit for that one turn is worthwhile. You can also use it on the last turn to deny victory points. I actually almost never find it worthwhile to get +2 to hit on just one Crawler anyway.
One variation on the Balanced that l was thinking about would be to cut one of the Crawlers for 3x5 Graia Rangers then swap the Dominus into a Manipulus. Because 90 points to buff 334 points of shooting is pushing things. Might be better to buff 700+ points of melee instead.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/20 09:17:04
Genestealer Drill is about the same size as the thick pipe in a magmavent. Mechanicus Drill is a bit larger than the big cylinders in the sector mechanicus.
Sector mechanicus might be compatible enough for you to make a drill train though. Or stick a drill on the end of some Sector mechanicus for something like:
Though these aren't mine - from Feral80 on B&C. I've just gone with the Mantic ones.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2019/04/20 16:52:43
Hmm thanks. Its a shame they’re not similar enough to just proxy. Though i’d been watching ferratonic reactors from sector mechanicus for a while, which is the bit those drills in your picture are made from. It’s still cheaper to buy an entire sector mechanicus and frag drill scenery set and smash em together than it is to buy a single drill though. Stupid FW pricing.
Sure Kastelans don't get invulnerable saves in CC for some reason but they're not meant to be charged, they're the ones who charge something, fight twice through it (may get interrupted if the target can fight T7) and then sits there in the middle of the field, you can't ignore it. Of course it'll die but so will your Kataphrons, Destroyers are the perfect target for Battle Cannons and Helverins and will chew through the whole unit like it's nothing. Fulgurites are durable only when they killed something and even then, they're squishier than Marines because T3. Lasguns worry them.
You speak of enemies hiding in buildings and that's a very good point, though I'll say Dragoons suffer the same problem. Depending on the terrain a smart opponent will just place his models on the edges of the floors so that your Fulgurites can't reach them, and if they can, they'll just kill the unit and consolidate nowhere, so will get shot/counter-charged. But yes they can go through walls and that's a great advantage I agree. I just hope GW will get their wits together so as to stop this "infantry goes trough walls" nonsense and start using modelled doors, windows or holes in the scenery, and allow big models to have much greater reach in CC.
I've used a single unit of 11 + a Prime Hermeticon Dominus in a proxied Drill in Stygies and they were fine most games. The drill itself is great in CC as it's tough and the drill weapon rules are awesome.
Yoda I've made the maths for your comparison with Breachers because I'm genuinely interested in this fight. However you've grossly overestimated their ability to fight vs T7, the regular 30 pts Breacher with Arc Claw is the one I've been using.
- 12 Breachers, reroll all hits, against 4 Bots in CC equals 4,5 wounds inflicted, so on average 9W lost. If you're fighting Lucius Bots as I play them they ignore the AP-1 and so we're down to 3 wounds inflicted resulting at 6W lost.
- 4 Fistelans, reroll hits of 1 (Canticle), against 12 Breachers equals 14,59 wounds inflicted in total. If I get to fight a second time with no interruption that's 29,18 wounds, so an average of almost 10 Breachers dead.
You can't do more than d3 damage in CC so I think you're confusing the Heavy Arc Rifle with the Claw. I didn't run the maths if you gave both Breachers a 5++ but they still lose pretty hard. They wound the Bots on 5s with the base Claw, have a meagre AP (for some reason) and deal d3 damage. Meanwhile the Bots wound on 2s, ignore almost all their armour saves and kill a Breacher with each failed save. I keep telling I'm scared of D3 weapons since I started playing my Destroyers.
Thing is the Breachers suck at breaching, they're good against anything below T7 but real vehicles are a huge problem when unsupported with the Eye of Xi-Lexum.
I'm not claiming they're better than a Cawlstar, their role is different and at any rate nothing prevents you playing both. In my opinion the Fistellans are certainly less boring to play but that's not relevant
What do you bring in support of them and how many is the sweet spot in your Lucius drop?
Tbh I tend to only really play them in friendly games as I haven’t found them that great - but I’m willing to admit I’m playing them wrong
I'll post the short version of the list I used these games, I'm planning some changes due to now having Assassins and wanting to play smaller units of infantry. The list is basically:
Agripinaa Battalion (Servitor Maniple) +4 CP:
- Dominus, Biosplicer (-1CP)
- Enginseer
- 8 Vanguards, 2 Arc Rifles
- 8 Vanguards, 2 Plasma
- 5 Vanguards
- 6 Plasmaphrons with Flamers
- 4 Servitors
- 4 Servitors
- Onager with Beamer and Stubber
- Onager with Laser and 2 Stubbers
- Onager with Icarus and Stubber
Starting with 7 CP after Specialist shenanigans, the 5++, the Datasmith + Bots in DS and such. I have some WYSIWYG choices in there so that explains some things you might find weird but I'm about to change the list anyway.
As for the sweet spot ? I've never tried anything else than 4 at 2000 pts, at 1000 pts I play 2 and at 1500 pts it's 2-4. I'm curious to add 2 other Fistelans but I fear they'll be even harder to manoeuver, 4 seems like a nice balance.
Random question: For the skull-and-cog symbol (AKA Cog Mechanicum, AKA Opus Machina), is black on the left side of the skull or the right? Furthermore, why is it reversed in Knight art? (I am about to paint it on my Knight, but I am not sure which side to go with.)
@Aaranis
Yeah, my worry is that most of my army is melee, but can't fight in ruins.
I play ITC rules, so they use the wobbly charge rule still.
So the question is, dragoons and fistellans fulfil the same basic role: killing things with a lot of wounds that either doesnt fight back well or can be killed in a single fight. Which do we go for?
They both have some significant pros and cons. I mean there’s nothing really stopping us taking both but you almost get almost 1.5 dragoons for the price of a single robot.
One is T6 the other T7 so anything fighting or shooting them is mostly wounding on the same, the difference being that at range that T7 means regular plasma and autocannons wound on a 4. Most other heavy weapons are wounding both on a 3 though.
Dragoons have a 6++ and are generally -2 to hit but their 4+ sv makes them more vulnerable to large amounts of dice. Robots before they switch protocol are 4++ at range and a 2+ regular sv. Feels like survivability is generally going to hinge on what you’re up against against but lascannons and overcharged plasma there’s very little in it.
Both have the same wounds, all things they have about the same attacks and both are generally wounding on a 2 or 3. Robots have better ap but those dragoons are almost hitting all of their attacks with a 2+ ws and robots hitting on 4s.
Seems pretty even. At least robots have a ranged weapon to shoot those hiding in buildings.
Octovol wrote: So the question is, dragoons and fistellans fulfil the same basic role: killing things with a lot of wounds that either doesnt fight back well or can be killed in a single fight. Which do we go for?
They both have some significant pros and cons. I mean there’s nothing really stopping us taking both but you almost get almost 1.5 dragoons for the price of a single robot.
One is T6 the other T7 so anything fighting or shooting them is mostly wounding on the same, the difference being that at range that T7 means regular plasma and autocannons wound on a 4. Most other heavy weapons are wounding both on a 3 though.
Dragoons have a 6++ and are generally -2 to hit but their 4+ sv makes them more vulnerable to large amounts of dice. Robots before they switch protocol are 4++ at range and a 2+ regular sv. Feels like survivability is generally going to hinge on what you’re up against against but lascannons and overcharged plasma there’s very little in it.
Both have the same wounds, all things they have about the same attacks and both are generally wounding on a 2 or 3. Robots have better ap but those dragoons are almost hitting all of their attacks with a 2+ ws and robots hitting on 4s.
Seems pretty even. At least robots have a ranged weapon to shoot those hiding in buildings.
I think they want to punch slightly different targets. With AP-1, S8 and D2 and tons of attacks the Dragoons are best used against light armour or things that have a good invulnerable save. I'm thinking they're excellent against anything Eldar like jetbikes, and awesome against any 2W models obviously. Meanwhile Robots punch fewer but harder, 3D, S10 and AP-3 means they want to go MC or tank hunting, or big tough units like Custodes Bikes, Kataphrons, Ogryns and such.
As for the resilience the -1/-2 is certainly a great protection most of the time, but anything that passes will wound hard and the 6++ isn't wonderful. If facing things that auto-hit (thinking Hemloks) or can move quickly they're toast. Robots have at least the 4++ for a while against shooting but never more than a -1 to Hit. That 4++ saved me a few bots but so did the -2 to Hit, it depends on the situation as you said.
In my experience, the combination of Dragoons and Icarus Crawlers is very hard for armies like Tau to deal with. Dragoons apply a lot of assault pressure, and Icarus kill infantry (which screen Dragoon charges) and flyers (which can get out of reach of Dragoons).
The math on Dragoons shows they just wreck multiwound targets in general. The fact that they have the volume to ignore invulnerable saves is also helpful. I think they definitely hit harder than Robots against most targets, but this is owing to the fact that they only cost 68 points apiece.
In my mind, the big difference is in mobility. Dragoons infiltrate and have much better movement, so they can alpha strike and then can keep threatening the opponent's backline until they are dealt with. Downside is that on a long deployment, they can get chewed up really bad by Lootas or Dark Reapers; going to just have to use a Callidus to make that first turn hurt less. Robots deep strike and are more one-shot.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/04/22 03:22:26
I've found my Dragoons to be perfectly useless against T'au oddly, they just get obliterated in overwatch most of the time, but that may be just me.
Kastelans can Infiltrate too, they just have 2" less, but for 2 CP they can have a +3" charge move so I think that evens out. The reason I'm playing them as Lucius most of the time is because I rarely get first turn and with the DS at least they can't be shot.
Both Dragoons and Fistelans are great I believe, which is why I use them both
Dragoons really get owned by the T'au Yvahra.
I feel like the Dragoons biggest strength is also it's weapon profile. It can really threaten anything due to a combination of high S, ap - 1, D2 and sheer volume of attacks.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Another point: There are some rumors of Knights getting capped at 4++ via next FAQ. Would you still consider running them if it gets true?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/22 08:44:51
Aaranis wrote: I've found my Dragoons to be perfectly useless against T'au oddly, they just get obliterated in overwatch most of the time, but that may be just me.
Kastelans can Infiltrate too, they just have 2" less, but for 2 CP they can have a +3" charge move so I think that evens out. The reason I'm playing them as Lucius most of the time is because I rarely get first turn and with the DS at least they can't be shot.
Both Dragoons and Fistelans are great I believe, which is why I use them both
Tau struggle to hit anything with -2 to hit past the first turn. So just play defensively against Tau. Grab objectives, use the range advantage to force them to come out of their death bubble.
Sure. But Robots have so many more advantages deep striking, whereas Dragoons have advantages manoeuvring into melee. Assuming they don't have fixed hit rolls or something.
lash92 wrote: Dragoons really get owned by the T'au Yvahra.
I feel like the Dragoons biggest strength is also it's weapon profile. It can really threaten anything due to a combination of high S, ap - 1, D2 and sheer volume of attacks.
I have never seen a Yvahra on the tabletop, so I wouldn't know. But generally speaking, a single (overpriced) battlesuit that essentially has +1 to hit (because the gun has 8" range unless they're Borked, which is <12" ) and almost zero drone protection is not the worst thing in the world for us.
Ideasweasel wrote: It weakens solo knights but doesn’t hinder knight armies. I’m not happy if it’s the case but it’s probably a fair compromise.
I have heard similar rumors. But in either case, the Krast Styrix I am using will probably come out on top because of the built-in 4++. I still think it's the best solo Knight for AdMech.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2019/04/23 08:11:00
Ideasweasel wrote: It weakens solo knights but doesn’t hinder knight armies. I’m not happy if it’s the case but it’s probably a fair compromise.
I have heard similar rumors. But in either case, the Krast Styrix I am using will probably come out on top because of the built-in 4++. I still think it's the best solo Knight for AdMech.
Indeed, thats just 1 less CP a turn I need to spend that i can spend on dragoons or balistarii or elimination volley
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/23 14:06:51
I’m always late to the party. After staying an arms length from soup I finally caved in a couple of months ago......just as all of you competitive chaps move back to mono Admech.
That aside, my recent exploits with soup has taught me a Wyvern is a truly beautiful thing (if you throw 7CP at it.
Deleting Ynnari dark reapers brings a smile to this old tech priests face.
Anyone having much luck with stygies drills of late?
Krast Styrix, that's for the reroll 1s to hit trait?
I have my own Styrix from way way back before the Castellan came out. It would be nice to take it to the field.
Just got bits for 6 dragoon conversions. It's gonna be a slow road back to 2000p for the Mono Faction.
ph34r's Forgeworld Phobos blog, current WIP: Iron Warriors and Skaven Tau +From Iron Cometh Strength+ +From Strength Cometh Will+ +From Will Cometh Faith+ +From Faith Cometh Honor+ +From Honor Cometh Iron+
The Polito form is dead, insect. Are you afraid? What is it you fear? The end of your trivial existence?
When the history of my glory is written, your species shall only be a footnote to my magnificence.
Yeah. Reroll 1s to shoot and fight WLT and the relic that adds 1 damage to weapons for 10W targets and another 1 damage for Titan keyword targets. Makes that 45" Volkite gun and Feet ridiculously deadly against other Knights.
500 points for 4 Robots and a Datasmith + cp so you do what? Deep strike and run all game?
No 12 breachers cost 360 points and they screen. meaning im gonna overwatch you shoot you and again over watch you before you kill them + (best case or shoot you more most likely). While your 360 rest point shoot me and my 500 rest point gun line shoot you. Any day any time. A simple BA battalion 2 captains and 3x5 scouts deny your deep strike and even if you dropp you die. we talking about effective competitive here not playing with my friends.
I said Breachers fullfill a Role cheap screen that will also shoot D6 damage to your expensive RObot knight vehcle etc. While most like it will hold you one round melee. The rest are apples and oranges as said many times in here.
Same goes for dragoons I see you all talking about how they charge bla bla. I NEVER Never use Dragoons to charge. Their ROLE IS prior to Screen away 12" from enemy so they get the -2 to get hit till your gunline take the proper targets Down.
Ad mech is a v v good gun line with many options and some tactics. It will never become An assault army in it current state.
Priests are the best counter unit int he game.The best but not asaault. when we had infiltrate they nerfed it. YOu dont have a tranport for that exact reason you dont have synergy for melee lists. you got options TO play vs those armies .
Play the plan or change armies or soup.
And dont get me wrong this is only me thinking outloud how to make a list for tommorrows game not what you gonna play.
I dont wanna see hate posts. Play what you like wanna play solo ad mech with Fistellans go for it. but most likely you ll be facing Friendly knight list cause i dont beleive anyone will play funny 4-6 Robots.
Wanna test it go for it. Manipulus Datasmith and 2*4 Fistellans with flamers. TRy placing objectives 3 in middle. Camp your Robot Stars And change protocols with Datasmiths each round. USE the flamers and thats a plan. get priests to counter any high invu target and fast attack for chasing anything else. There you go. Funny game.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/24 18:25:45
What's you guys' opinion on the Secutarii? The models are dope and i feel like they can do some decent work. I've seen people say that hoplites in drills are quite good but what about peltasts?
I know they dont get access to the Dogmas but adding more specialised skitarii could make for a pretty cool infantry-heavy army.
@Yoda79
Maybe it's just me, but I still don't understand Breachers. They are cheap for their statline (which people don't really prep for) and they are a good unit to glue your AdMech list together, but they are also slow and not too great at shooting or fighting. But not bad at shooting or shooting either. Just very average in the damage output department.
I think Dragoons do their job best when they are forcing the enemy to shoot at them. Sometimes, that means moving up the board to be aggressive. Other times, it is to screen and intercept transports. Same applies for Electro-Priests. I would not deploy them as a counter-charging unit though--not without ruins to hide in or something. They really want to get a unit kill on the charge ASAP to become nearly unkillable.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/04/26 04:24:56
An ork with an idea tends to end with a bang. 
14000pts Big 'n Bad Orkz
6000pts Admech/Knights
7500pts Necron Goldboys 
