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@ThePie
Depends on your meta. If you shoot vehicles lacking strong invulnerable saves, then Neutron Lasers. But Icarus Array is much more well-rounded.

Crawlers are nice because they don't require any CP, cost little in terms of points, and are relatively tough.

Triple Phosphor Kastelan Robots (Dakkabots) and Plasma Destroyers are our best bang for buck units though. Lascannon Ballistarii are also essentially twin lascannons for 80 points, which is unremarkable until you realize they can be squadroned and get a +2 to hit steroid.

Typical bols where misinformation is the currency lol

 0XFallen wrote:
Suzuteo, I have some in-depth questions, as you seem to be really on top of the game and have similar lists, that combine a bit of every role.
Right now I am good at building lists, so the next step is the game itself, how do you use those components, what to look out for?
This question goes to everyone really. Anything regarding Cawlstar, screen, vanguards, melee.

1. Deployment: Is really hard for me, I generally just look out for LoS and range.
2. Vanguards: Usually put them as far away as possibile to be able to reach objectives and deny first turn movement shenanigans.
3. Screen: How far do you put them away from your robots? Mostly using rangers and some servitors. Any tips against flyers, skimmers? How to place your characters in relation to robots, or just leave them alone with the overwatch relict?
4. melee: I dont use electrovariants, kataphrons nor have many chickens. Ruststalkers are bad, but tips would be appreciated too.
5. Dragoons and Ironstriders seem pretty good with stratagems in bigger units, but are they worth taking solo as I only have one magnetized.

I'm actually super far behind at the moment with all the changes (I played Soup for months and now I am re-learning pure AdMech) and being out of practice for two months. And I have BAO in two weeks! My paint might not even be dry by the time I show up to the convention hall. Haha. But I will try to answer your questions.

1. Always deploy to maximize your ability to play the mission. This means keeping the faster moving units in front and your ranged units in order of their range (shorter range means closer to the enemy). This is all obviously to contest objectives. If you outrange the enemy, definitely deploy out of range as much as you can; forcing the heavy weapons to move is key. In certain matchups, such as Eldar, where their mobility and range is overwhelmingly good, you want to position the targets they want to remove the most further away or behind certain LOS-blocking terrain so that it forces them to come into range of your guns. HOWEVER, if your opponent has a dominant strategy, like a giant melee deathball, your interest is exclusively in survival. Deploy the infantry as sacrificial buffers, then your melee screen, then your gunline. Except against Nids, who will Overrun; against them, build strong points around your gunline by mixing fighting and shooting so they don't just rocket behind your gunline, which traps it between your melee and the Nids.
2. In general, my Skitarii do nothing but stay alive and hold objectives, as well as shoot other infantry. Well, unless I am sacrificing them to buy me one turn. Remember that you can ignore Overwatch by charging from behind a wall.
3. 2 inches plus the enemy model's base size. This is the minimum to prevent the enemy model from "sliding" into combat with your Dakkabots in consolidation. So 4" is usually pretty safe unless it's something like a Knight.
4. You need a melee screen to slow down assault armies and also to peel fighting units off your gunline. Fulgurites have to be played aggressively; a Drill helps protect them until they get a kill and become virtually unkillable. Infiltrators used to be really good when you could deploy inside your own deployment, but nowadays are mostly used as a beta strike.
5. Ironstriders can be used to fill Outrider taxes. Otherwise, they shine in units of 4-6. They practically always hit, and they have excellent point efficiency and mobility for objective capture.

 Suzuteo wrote:

 0XFallen wrote:
Suzuteo, I have some in-depth questions, as you seem to be really on top of the game and have similar lists, that combine a bit of every role.
Right now I am good at building lists, so the next step is the game itself, how do you use those components, what to look out for?
This question goes to everyone really. Anything regarding Cawlstar, screen, vanguards, melee.

1. Deployment: Is really hard for me, I generally just look out for LoS and range.
2. Vanguards: Usually put them as far away as possibile to be able to reach objectives and deny first turn movement shenanigans.
3. Screen: How far do you put them away from your robots? Mostly using rangers and some servitors. Any tips against flyers, skimmers? How to place your characters in relation to robots, or just leave them alone with the overwatch relict?
4. melee: I dont use electrovariants, kataphrons nor have many chickens. Ruststalkers are bad, but tips would be appreciated too.
5. Dragoons and Ironstriders seem pretty good with stratagems in bigger units, but are they worth taking solo as I only have one magnetized.

I'm actually super far behind at the moment with all the changes (I played Soup for months and now I am re-learning pure AdMech) and being out of practice for two months. And I have BAO in two weeks! My paint might not even be dry by the time I show up to the convention hall. Haha. But I will try to answer your questions.

1. Always deploy to maximize your ability to play the mission. This means keeping the faster moving units in front and your ranged units in order of their range (shorter range means closer to the enemy). This is all obviously to contest objectives. If you outrange the enemy, definitely deploy out of range as much as you can; forcing the heavy weapons to move is key. In certain matchups, such as Eldar, where their mobility and range is overwhelmingly good, you want to position the targets they want to remove the most further away or behind certain LOS-blocking terrain so that it forces them to come into range of your guns. HOWEVER, if your opponent has a dominant strategy, like a giant melee deathball, your interest is exclusively in survival. Deploy the infantry as sacrificial buffers, then your melee screen, then your gunline. Except against Nids, who will Overrun; against them, build strong points around your gunline by mixing fighting and shooting so they don't just rocket behind your gunline, which traps it between your melee and the Nids.
2. In general, my Skitarii do nothing but stay alive and hold objectives, as well as shoot other infantry. Well, unless I am sacrificing them to buy me one turn. Remember that you can ignore Overwatch by charging from behind a wall.
3. 2 inches plus the enemy model's base size. This is the minimum to prevent the enemy model from "sliding" into combat with your Dakkabots in consolidation. So 4" is usually pretty safe unless it's something like a Knight.
4. You need a melee screen to slow down assault armies and also to peel fighting units off your gunline. Fulgurites have to be played aggressively; a Drill helps protect them until they get a kill and become virtually unkillable. Infiltrators used to be really good when you could deploy inside your own deployment, but nowadays are mostly used as a beta strike.
5. Ironstriders can be used to fill Outrider taxes. Otherwise, they shine in units of 4-6. They practically always hit, and they have excellent point efficiency and mobility for objective capture.

Thanks for the input!

I read the deepstrike rule and nothing prohibits infiltrators to be set up during deployment, doesnt it? So against a huge alphastrike with mostly melee that would be a good idea I believe.

So I am convinced now that the new gatekeeper is going to be Eldar aircraft. A lot of armies totally get shut out by -1 to -3 to hit. I think we're actually rather exposed to this as well.

Here is the core list, Martian gunline with an Auxiliary detachment of Dragoons:

I am thinking of various ways to use the last few points, such as:

Case A
+1 Kastelan Robot
-1 Breacher
+5 Mars Vanguard

2x4 Breacher and 1x5 Vanguard. Most simple change. Vanguard for the mobility and -1T aura in a pinch. Some people tell me the 3x Breacher unit is not as strong in fighting (3x3 attacks < 2x4 attacks) and at risk of morale issues.

Case B
-1 Breacher
+3 Destroyer

2x4 Breacher and 1x3 Destroyer. Sort of think the Destroyer MSU is a bit underwhelming, and it's only purpose is to give the Robots +1 to hit with Elimination Volley. Don't got enough spare points for more though.

Case C
-2 Dragoon
+2 Icarus Crawler
+5 Graia Ranger

Not really happy removing 2 Dragoons given I am paying for the detachment.

Case D
+2 Autocannon Ironstrider

Going to need to buy and build another two... ugh.

 0XFallen wrote:
Thanks for the input!

I read the deepstrike rule and nothing prohibits infiltrators to be set up during deployment, doesnt it? So against a huge alphastrike with mostly melee that would be a good idea I believe.

Sure, against GSC/Nids, Chaos, or any super-fast assault army, if they go first, you should set them up in a strong point to shoot and counter charge. However, if you are going first, putting them into reserves to force them to defend the artillery the next turn is important.

 Suzuteo wrote:
So I am convinced now that the new gatekeeper is going to be Eldar aircraft. A lot of armies totally get shut out by -1 to -3 to hit. I think we're actually rather exposed to this as well.

Here is the core list, Martian gunline with an Auxiliary detachment of Dragoons:

Spoiler:

Mars Battalion Detachment - 1305
Cohort Cybernetica (-1 CP)

HQ - 275
1x Belisarius Cawl
1x Tech-Priest Manipulus - Transonic Cannon, Relic: Raiment of the Techno-Martyr, Warlord: Prime Hermeticon

Troop - 270
3x Kataphron Breacher - 3x Heavy Arc Rifle, 3x Arc Claw
3x Kataphron Breacher - 3x Heavy Arc Rifle, 3x Arc Claw
3x Kataphron Breacher - 3x Heavy Arc Rifle, 3x Arc Claw

Heavy Support - 440
4x Kastelan Robot - 12x Heavy Phosphor Blaster

Fast Attack - 320
4x Ironstrider Ballistarii - 4x Twin Cognis Lascannon

Graia Battalion Detachment - 165

HQ - 60
1x Tech-Priest Enginseer
1x Tech-Priest Enginseer

Troop - 105
5x Skitarii Ranger - 5x Galvanic Rifle
5x Skitarii Ranger - 5x Galvanic Rifle
5x Skitarii Ranger - 5x Galvanic Rifle

Stygies VIII Auxiliary Detachment - 408 (-1 CP)

Fast Attack - 408
6x Sydonian Dragoon - 6x Taser Lance

Total: 1878 points
13 CP (-2)

I am thinking of various ways to use the last few points, such as:

Case A
+1 Kastelan Robot
-1 Breacher
+5 Mars Vanguard

2x4 Breacher and 1x5 Vanguard. Most simple change. Vanguard for the mobility and -1T aura in a pinch. Some people tell me the 3x Breacher unit is not as strong in fighting (3x3 attacks < 2x4 attacks) and at risk of morale issues.

Case B
-1 Breacher
+3 Destroyer

2x4 Breacher and 1x3 Destroyer. Sort of think the Destroyer MSU is a bit underwhelming, and it's only purpose is to give the Robots +1 to hit with Elimination Volley. Don't got enough spare points for more though.

Case C
-2 Dragoon
+2 Icarus Crawler
+5 Graia Ranger

Not really happy removing 2 Dragoons given I am paying for the detachment.

Case D
+2 Autocannon Ironstrider

Going to need to buy and build another two... ugh.

 0XFallen wrote:
Thanks for the input!

I read the deepstrike rule and nothing prohibits infiltrators to be set up during deployment, doesnt it? So against a huge alphastrike with mostly melee that would be a good idea I believe.

Sure, against GSC/Nids, Chaos, or any super-fast assault army, if they go first, you should set them up in a strong point to shoot and counter charge. However, if you are going first, putting them into reserves to force them to defend the artillery the next turn is important.

if youre fearing eldar flyers, wouldnt icarus crawlers be a must-include?
and if you feel like the -1/-3 to hit is strong against us, why run that many BS 4+?

I did the math and concluded that the Lascannon Ballistarii are much more effective, provided you have CP and bring them in larger quantities. They also do great against Wave Serpents, Knights, and other high toughness vehicles. Going to rely on the Dakkabots and Breachers to handle bikes, battlesuits, speeders. Crawlers are great value if your CP is tight though, so long as you have enough to squeeze two in.

It's not like we have a choice to run fewer 4+, as some of our best units are 4+.

Also, just had a random thought: Agripinaa Ballistarii could be really strong as well. I ran Agripinaa Crawlers before, and they just melted flying vehicles. But Lascannons have even more breadth of targets.

 Suzuteo wrote:
I did the math and concluded that the Lascannon Ballistarii are much more effective, provided you have CP and bring them in larger quantities. Crawlers are great value if your CP is tight. They also do great against Wave Serpents, Knights, and other high toughness vehicles. Going to rely on the Dakkabots and Breachers to handle bikes, battlesuits, speeders.

It's not like we have a choice to run fewer 4+, as some of our best units are 4+.

Also, just had a random thought: Agripinaa Ballistarii could be really strong as well. I ran Agripinaa Crawlers before, and they just melted flying vehicles. But Lascannons have even more breadth of targets.

Whats the purpose of agripinaa ballistarii exactly?

And im confused as to what you made your calculations against, surely lascannons will have a harder time dealing with bikers than an onager (less shots), however i expect the lascannon with the +@ to hit strat to fare better against actual flyers (Hemlock, razorwing, etc)

Made an edit to clarify things about the Crawlers.

Agripinaa Ballistarii for anti-vehicle shooting. It was just a thought. Against -2 to hit, they are 3+. Against everything else, Cawl reroll is sort of a waste. Dominus with the Eye to reroll 1s for wounding seems good; reroll failed wounds against Chaos, which makes Renegade Knights very sad.

I specifically stated that Dakkabots and Breachers would be shooting at bikes, battlesuits, speeders, and such.

 Suzuteo wrote:
Made an edit to clarify things about the Crawlers.

Agripinaa Ballistarii for anti-vehicle shooting. It was just a thought. Against -2 to hit, they are 3+. Against everything else, Cawl reroll is sort of a waste. Dominus with the Eye to reroll 1s for wounding seems good; reroll failed wounds against Chaos, which makes Renegade Knights very sad.

I specifically stated that Dakkabots and Breachers would be shooting at bikes, battlesuits, speeders, and such.

oh, i forgot about the eye (i rarely play agripiina, i like my stygies too much) i was stuck with the dogma in mind, hence my confusion since cognis overwatch made it useless.

I could see it working very well.

Seeing all you guys' lists with plenty of breachers makes me eager to try them out the next time i play

I don't dig the Eye against Eldar flyers. You have to get into 18" right?
Those things are so fast and there has been a shift to Crimson Hunter Exarchs who don't even need to come close to you.

@VladimirHerzog
Right. Only question is if I wanna pay 60 points for the Dominus to get it. Though other benefits include being able to take advantage of the Fresh Converts stratagem and Servitor Maniple.

EDIT: I just saw this in our FAQ:
Q: When using the Cognis Overwatch Stratagem, do I apply any relevant modifiers to the firing model’s Ballistic Skill?
A: Yes, as long as the weapon is a cognis weapon. Note that modifiers to hit rolls do not apply.

That is pretty interesting, actually.

Breachers are a really interesting unit. They are a nice glue for our lists because they are essentially elites that occupy the troop slot. (And Skitarii are one of the worst troop choices in the game right now.) But they are not particularly great at anything except being too WEIRD to kill; I mean, T5 W3 2+/6++? You want a S6/10 AP-4 D3 weapon to kill them. But the closest you've got are melee weapons like Thunder Hammers, and it's just overkill to fly over to these units with their big bases to smack them to death. So people just ignore them until they are forced to shoot Lascannons at them.

@lash92
The user of the Eye does. And oftentimes, they don't have much say in where their aircraft will end up.

I wonder how a group of breachers would measure up to the current bullgryn mini death star the tournament players are all using.

 ultimentra wrote:
I wonder how a group of breachers would measure up to the current bullgryn mini death star the tournament players are all using.

Sort of apples to oranges, since Breachers aren't a dedicated melee unit. I would actually compare them to Dragoons. Dragoons are way faster, have -2 to hit, and fewer attacks; they cost roughly the same if you factor in the HQs needed to make Bullgryns shine. I would say that Bullgryns are better at holding ground and being a defensive melee unit, whereas Dragoons are very much an offensive melee unit.

Important question for me right now: 6x Dragoons or a Knight Styrix?

Important question for me right now: 6x Dragoons or a Knight Styrix?

Depends:

1. running as stygies? prob go with the Dragoons -2 to hit is nasty.
2. is it meant to be a big distraction that charges at the enemny and attracts fire to keep the gunline safe? Knight...
3. what armies are you likely to face? hordes = dragoons, knights = Styrix...
4. if you took the knight presumably you would buff it with Ion Bulkwork/relic etc?

I think the Knight is probably more survivable with Ion Shields and toughness, unless (possibly?) you take them as Stygies.
if they all survive then the dragoons would put out more damage in combat, especially against infantry?

He’d take first knight and maybe headhunter as Styrix has built in goodness in the form of a 4++ v shooting 5++ v melee I believe

 Suzuteo wrote:
Made an edit to clarify things about the Crawlers.

Agripinaa Ballistarii for anti-vehicle shooting. It was just a thought. Against -2 to hit, they are 3+. Against everything else, Cawl reroll is sort of a waste. Dominus with the Eye to reroll 1s for wounding seems good; reroll failed wounds against Chaos, which makes Renegade Knights very sad.

I specifically stated that Dakkabots and Breachers would be shooting at bikes, battlesuits, speeders, and such.

Ballustarii dont have a built in -1 only dragoons


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Suzuteo wrote:
Made an edit to clarify things about the Crawlers.

Agripinaa Ballistarii for anti-vehicle shooting. It was just a thought. Against -2 to hit, they are 3+. Against everything else, Cawl reroll is sort of a waste. Dominus with the Eye to reroll 1s for wounding seems good; reroll failed wounds against Chaos, which makes Renegade Knights very sad.

I specifically stated that Dakkabots and Breachers would be shooting at bikes, battlesuits, speeders, and such.

Ballistarii dont have a built in -1 only dragoons

U02dah4 wrote:
Ballistarii dont have a built in -1 only dragoons

I'm talking about the Ballistarii shooting at -2 to hit, not that they have -2 to hit.

 The Forgemaster wrote:

Important question for me right now: 6x Dragoons or a Knight Styrix?

Depends:

1. running as stygies? prob go with the Dragoons -2 to hit is nasty.
2. is it meant to be a big distraction that charges at the enemny and attracts fire to keep the gunline safe? Knight...
3. what armies are you likely to face? hordes = dragoons, knights = Styrix...
4. if you took the knight presumably you would buff it with Ion Bulkwork/relic etc?

I think the Knight is probably more survivable with Ion Shields and toughness, unless (possibly?) you take them as Stygies.
if they all survive then the dragoons would put out more damage in combat, especially against infantry?

1. Yeah. Dragoons pretty much should always be run as Stygies.
2. Mm. Yeah.
3. I have to assume TAC, but the greatest melee threats are hordes.
4. Styrix has built-in 4++ shooting and 5++ fighting. Krast has excellent WLT (RR1 shooting and fighting) and relic (+1D vs. W10+, +2D vs. titans).

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/05/10/warhammer-fest-uk-2019-live-bloggw-homepage-post-3fw-homepage-post-1/

New Skitarii Transport...?

 The Forgemaster wrote:


https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/05/10/warhammer-fest-uk-2019-live-bloggw-homepage-post-3fw-homepage-post-1/

New Skitarii Transport...?

looks so. Figure on the back looks like skitari ranger to me.

Plus this thing on the left looks like the binoculars on the Dunecrawler hatch.

So I’m not getting my flying blimp with death rays then

Sad times

Oh neat... so... a hover tank?

I like this Contrast paint idea... but it's probably not going to be helpful for us. All of our models are hell to paint.

 Suzuteo wrote:
Oh neat... so... a hover tank?

Well, we have only half hour for speculations so lets go wild. Id say...yes.
This part looks like some kind of rotor, so it may be actually gravtank. would laugh if that was true.

If it contains the fly keyword that could be useful for charging flyers hopefully

Probably wishing a bit too much

 Ideasweasel wrote:
If it contains the fly keyword that could be useful for charging flyers hopefully

Probably wishing a bit too much

I don't think charging flyers will be supper strategy, but transport that may fly out of combat may be super valuable. Tau utilizes flying screen to great success, and so could we.

Plus not being able to be tied up and flying across terrain.

More options is good. The dream is being able to drop 20 electropriests into my opponents lines quickly and without reply

I am not expecting to be able to do so though

This looks like open toped vehicle, if i have seen one. And i love it. Insta buy 6 of those for its brother tank also.

It’s repulsive...

Heheh

I wonder

A. What it’s stats are
B. How much it costs £
C. How long we have to wait to find out

I’m guessing none of the above will be available this weekend