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Anyone got any experience with the Graia FW? Combinding Graia and the cybernetica cohort to enable your kastelans to shoot in melee seems like a good way to deal with pesky enemies trying to tie up them. Being able to deny the witch on 4+ also looks handy.
Not sure if thats worth over running Stygies or Mars with cawl though.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/24 14:27:19
House Krast Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment - 478
Lord of War - 498 1x Knight Crusader - Avenger Gatling Cannon, Rapid-Fire Battle Cannon, Heavy Flamer, 2x Heavy Stubber
Total: 1998 points 13 CP (-3)
--
Game 1 vs. Raven Guard (Sniper Scouts, Eliminators, Suppressors, Ven Dread, Contemptor Dread)
Spoiler:
Krast Crusader: First Knight, Sainted Ion
Deployment: Search and Destroy
I took Butcher's Bill, Reaper, and Old School. He took Kingslayer (Cawl), Gangbusters, and Ground Control.
Map consisted of two magic bunkers in the center of the map, containing the two objectives, and pillars at the corners. Deployment was not favorable at all to shooting armies, and we were both that. I won the roll off and took the side with the objective closer to my deployment. He deployed Scouts to my right and left flanks, and hid everything else (Venerable Dread and Contemptor Dread) behind his magic box. I deployed the Knight on my right with two units of Breachers. On my left, Cawl, Manipulus, Ironstriders, and Dakkabots.
Round 1 - Shroudpsalm + Incantation
My Knight stays out of LOS of the Contemptor Dread and shoots into the Sniper Scouts and Eliminators. He flubs it and leaves one alive in both units. Breachers go into the magic bunker.
I went first. I Bolstered Warriors and moved up my left flank. Ironstriders got Doctrina. The two front ones shot into the Venerable Dread. The two rear ones shot across the short-length of the table into some other bikes; they flub it and leave one alive. Breacher kills a bike.
Dakkabots save the day, killing the unit of bikes touched by the Breacher and a unit of Tacticals without Override or Wrath.
My opponent gets really bad advance rolls so he continues to hide his troops. His Contemptor shoots my Knight, dealing 6 damage.
Round 2 - Invocation + Benediction
Breacher, Vanguard, and Knight finishes the surviving bike, Sniper Scout, and Eliminators on my right flank off. The other Breacher stayed in the magic bunker. I move the Knight toward the center of the map to avoid the enemy's deep strikers.
I moved my castle up again. Ironstriders got Doctrina and wiped the Venerable Dread. I rooted the Dakkabots and wiped the Contemptor Dread. The castle's screen moved up toward the other center objective.
He deep strikes his Warlord, Shrike, and Assault Marines. He charges and kills my Ironstriders.
Round 3 - Shroudpsalm + Invocation
Dakkabots and Knight wipe the Warlord, Shrike, and Assault Marines. My screen takes the center objective.
He tries to take back the center objective, but fails to do so.
13-12 (WIN)
We both played rather slow. Lots of time measuring distances and tip-toeing around the magic bunker. Actual score was supposed to be 15; I realized as I wrote this that I forgot to score Reaper. Doh. Felt fishy to me how close this was given my dominating performance.
Game 2 vs. Chaos (Renegade Knight Lance, Havocs, Daemon Prince, Red Corsair Bomb)
Spoiler:
Krast Crusader: First Knight, Headsman's Mark
Deployment: Vanguard Strike
I took Butcher's Bill, Titan Slayer, and Old School. He took Recon, Titan Slayer, and Old School.
There is a center objective in some open ruins at the mouth of a choke. I took the deployment with the majority of the central ruins. I placed my objective at the edge of the 12" line, in the center. He placed his inside his ruins on his side of the board. The deployment pretty much invited a showdown, so we deployed our entire armies in huge lines facing one another. I kept my Ironstriders and Dakkabots a bit further back.
Round 1 - Shroudpsalm + Incantation
He deployed first, so he went first. He shot 8 Breachers dead with the large majority of his shooting. He attempted to Warptime his Daemon Prince in range of my Knight, but I denied it with my Graia stratagem. He advances his bombs toward the choke, which I have taken and reinforced with advanced Skitarii to deny him Recon.
I shoot my Knight then my Ironstriders into the enemy Knight and Armiger. My Dakkabots Strafe, move up, root, Wrath, and kill his Knight, Armiger, and 14 CSMs. I make it into the choke first. My Knight then charges the Daemon Prince, leaving with one wound (to my Knight's 16).
Round 2 - Shroudpsalm + Invocation
Havocs pound a unit of Skitarii and the surviving Breacher into dust. His Cultists push into the choke, but are stopped by a second unit of Vanguard. His Daemon Prince fights my Knight. He Deep Strikes his Terminators and shootings my Dakkabots, killing one.
My Knight falls back and pours everything into the Havocs. My Dakkabots wipe the Terminators. With nothing else left to shoot, my Ironstriders shoot the Send in the Next Wave of CSMs. My Vanguard charge and retake the choke. My Knight charges into the Chaos Lord and kills it and the surviving Daemon Prince.
Round 3 - Shroudpsalm + Chant
At this point, we're just talking about next moves. With only two Cultists left in the center of the map, he pretty much forfeits.
25-10 (WIN)
Game 3 vs. Eldar (Hemlock, 2x Exarch, Warlock Conclave)
Spoiler:
Krast Crusader: First Knight, Headsman's Mark
Deployment: Dawn of War
I took Marked for Death (Hemlock, 2x Exarch, Warlock Conclave), Old School, Engineers (Rangers). He took Recon, Marked for Death (3x3 Breachers, Ironstriders), and Kingslayer.
It's the short deployment, with two large central ruins. I had two large ruins on my side; he had three smaller ruins. I deployed Breachers and Vanguard at the edge of my deployment between the central ruins. My Knight was on my right, Cawl on the left, and Ironstriders in the rear to complete the box. He deployed all of his aircraft in one corner and his Conclave in the ruins on the opposite side. He decides to use a stratagem to redeploy to the side of my Knight.
Round 1 - Shroudpsalm + Benediction
I win the rolloff and decide to go first. Ironstriders get Doctrina, and I deal 16 damage to the Hemlock. He needs to make four 6+ FNP saves. He makes SIX.
I want to shoot the Conclave. He points out that the entire first floor is opaque, and that there is an invisible wall where the wall was collapsed. I pointed out that the ITC terrain guidelines specifically stated that we can consider windows and doors to be opaque, but we are not to create terrain where there is none. He insisted, and I gave it to him, even though I know I should not have. In any case, it made me move further up and to the right to draw LOS. I shoot my Knight into his Conclave. Only TWO damage. Nothing else is in range.
He advances his Conclave up to my Knight and moves his Hemlock as well. He attempts to Doom. I try to Abhor. It fails, so I reroll. It fails again. I don't bother trying to keep the Knight alive, and I use the stratagem to make it explode. It deals 2 mortal wounds to the Hemlock and 6 to the Conclave.
His Exarchs shoot my screen and kill Breachers. He sends his three characters up, Smite and charge my Cawl. He manages to kill him, then piles into an Enginseer.
Round 2 - Shroudpsalm + Incantation
Ironstriders finish off the Hemlock and also kill an Exarch. My Dakkabots root and pour everything into the Conclave. 6+ without rerolls SUCKS. I do ZERO damage because he made every save.
I charge my Breachers into the enemy Warlord. He interrupts me and kills one of the Breacher units. He has only one wound left!
Conclave moves beside my Ironstriders. Attempt Abhor again. Fail. Reroll. Fail. WHAT?! Shoots them and then Fire and Fades into 2" of Dakkabots, then charges. All of my Ironstriders are dead, as well as one Dakkabot; they are tied in combat.
Round 3
We discuss the situation. I pretty much made clear that all I had left was to pile into objectives to score points. He gave me Hold 1s, but otherwise, it was a forfeit. That Conclave was still at 50% strength. Combined with the remaining Exarch, he can just about delete two units a turn.
12-38 (LOSS)
Lessons learned against Eldar:
-Play more conservatively with the Knight. Make him come to you.
-Take control of the center; don't try to play the flanks.
-Skitarii behind the Breachers here; if he kills the Breachers, there is enough space to fit three bikers in.
-PROTECT CAWL
-Kill the Conclave first; the aircraft are more of a distraction.
-Don't accept gifts from your opponent (in this case, he offered me candy); the Machine Spirits grow angry.
So I finished Day 1 with a 2-1 record. I am ranked #71 overall and #1 in AdMech at the event. AdMech is a low scoring army, but my score is particularly awful today. Upon retrospect, I realize that this is because of my inexperience with Breachers. I also am realizing that tend to play more aggressively than I should. I no longer have Guardsmen to capture objectives. That being said, every person I have played and all of my teammates think the shooting output in this army is terrifying, and I look forward to refining it, especially when we get transports.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2019/05/26 05:52:46
I don't really think like that. Most units are obviously good and bad on paper. In usage, the good units may be better for specific things, and lists are meant to balance that.
Anyhow, I will post some generalized learnings by the end of the event tonight. A Major is a great place to gather information not normally available at your RTT or GT. This is also the West Coast meta, which from what I have seen is more net-list heavy. (I still have yet to face a Tau, Purge, or GSC list. They are everywhere though. AdMech are a very rare sight, actually; nobody likes the faction constraint.)
The Ballistarii are good. I am quite surprised by how useful they are at killing T4 units, actually. Especially characters.
Great report, clear and concise, thanks it's interesting data (and we love data around here). However I think your Eldar opponent either cheated or was just wrong with Fire and Fade, you can't charge after using this stratagem, it's written in the stratagem.
ThePie wrote: Anyone got any experience with the Graia FW? Combinding Graia and the cybernetica cohort to enable your kastelans to shoot in melee seems like a good way to deal with pesky enemies trying to tie up them. Being able to deny the witch on 4+ also looks handy.
Not sure if thats worth over running Stygies or Mars with cawl though.
I want to try this in one or two of my next games, but I don't play much of late. I believe Graia is a solid forge-world. In my opinion though, if you're choosing a forge-world or two in your lists, you need to commit a minimum to their strengths to take profit from either the dogmas or the stratagems.
Playing Graia, you'll want to play on their dogma "Refusal to Yield" and field a lot of infantry, as they benefit the most from it. Coincidentally, their stratagem works only on infantry. Their warlord trait "Emotionless Clarity" encourages you to play this way too, as you can still shoot with your troops in CC (Vanguards, Rangers and the Cognis flamers/Phosphor blasters of the Destroyers). If you want to play Kastelans that benefit from this rule however I suggest limiting to one min squad and use the trait as a bonus tool, because Kastelans without Cawl are too expensive and susceptible to be locked in CC. Just a BS4+ with rerolls 1s isn't great.
Mars is based on playing around Cawl, and makes for a sort of versatile forge-world thanks to the dogma for double canticles and Cawl's ability. You'll want to maximise your gunline and especially high RoF units for WoM, like Dakkastelans, Infiltrators bombs or even a plain old unit of 10 Vanguards. Corpuscarii work too but they need the transport really bad.
The dogma is useful for all your army, and I believe that lists with a CC focus element greatly benefit from the possibility to always reroll 1s to Hit in the Fight phase and/or have +1S. Otherwise, reroll morale or the all-mighty Shroud are great.
Stygies VIII supports the idea of a defensive long-range gunline, and trades the lethality of Mars for the durability of being -1 to Hit. Before the FAQ they were great for all things CC but now the 9" move limits your area of action considerably. Still great for Dragoons because they have the speed and additional -1 to be Hit.
Agripinaa wants you to field Kataphrons everywhere, and works admirably with the Servitor Maniple. Their 5+ Overwatch dogma is also really powerful, and now that we can reroll in Overwatch too we can allow for a mobile-gunline playstyle that can push on the enemy lines to contest objectives or just get in range, and discourage charges with the mean Overwatch. This synergises well with the Eye of Xi-Lexum, that wants you to be within 18" of the target vehicle. This relic is great as it allows your Breachers to actually breach vehicles, and helps your whole army shoot down a tough target (I'm thinking Knights or the future range of Chaos Knights).
I could give other examples but I'll just wait to see how our playstyle will change with the new Skorpius, be it the Dunerider or Disintegrator variants. Hoping for a preorder next weekend !
On an unrelated note, I finally remembered posting my Belisarius Cawl model on the forum, here it is for you: Salazar Kroze, lord of Stygies VIII
Aaranis wrote: Great report, clear and concise, thanks it's interesting data (and we love data around here). However I think your Eldar opponent either cheated or was just wrong with Fire and Fade, you can't charge after using this stratagem, it's written in the stratagem.
Son of a... oh well. Wasn't going to win.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/26 05:53:00
Aaranis wrote: Great report, clear and concise, thanks it's interesting data (and we love data around here). However I think your Eldar opponent either cheated or was just wrong with Fire and Fade, you can't charge after using this stratagem, it's written in the stratagem.
Added some photos to my prior post. And here's more data:
Game 4 vs. Tyranids (GS + Flyrants + Smite Spam)
Spoiler:
Krast Crusader: First Knight, Sainted Ion
Deployment: Vanguard Strike
I took Butcher's Bill, Reaper, and Ground Control. He took Kingslayer (Knight), Recon, and Ground Control.
Same table as my previous loss against Eldar, except now I was on the opposite side. We placed the objectives in the middle-center. I was forced to deploy in closer order. I deployed my Knight on my right to guard against a charge from the ruins (which I cannot draw LOS) along with a unit of Breachers and Skitarii in front to soak up Smites. I deployed my other Breachers and Vanguard in a long line. Behind them are my HQs, and then my Dakkabots and Ironstriders. My opponent deployed GS in the ruins and everything else in a big blob in the center.
Round 1 - Shroudpsalm + Chant
My opponent advances all of his melee. His artillery and Smites kill Breachers and Skitarii on my right, and he consolidates out of combat in front of my Knight to pin it in place; I can only walk over them if I fall back.
I root and shoot. My Knight and one Dakkabot kill the GS blob on my right. One Dakkabot kills three Zoanthropes. Final two shoot the GSC blob on the left... and four survive. He proceeds then to remove them from the FRONT of the unit so the survivors are out of countercharge range of my Breachers. Ironstriders shoot one Flyrant. He manages to save enough to pull through.
At this point, I realized that I got greedy shooting the Zoanthropes. I am pretty sure I lost at this point due to those four GSs.
Round 2 - Chant + Shroudpsalm
My opponent advances the GSs 20 inches and gets right in front of my Breachers. He then obliterates the left side of the screen in shooting. The GS charge and reach my Dakkabots. He also ties up my HQs and remaining screen in CC, putting multiple wounds on Cawl.
I tell my opponent that I can spend the rest of the game running my Knight and Ironstriders around, taking potshots and such, Kill both Tyrants, kill the Gaunts, etc. He agrees that that would be an incredibly boring and painful game. So we talk it through, and I concede.
17-40 (LOSS)
So one of us were going to get blown out in this game. A shooting list and an assault list. I was reasonably confident that I could win, and I don't think I made any major mistakes in deployment; I actually expected to win quite handily by taking my objective across the board after killing his Flyrants. However, while this might have been true back when I had 40-60 Catachan backed by 15 Vanguard, it definitely is not when I have to use Breachers. Furthermore, while I did anticipate the main attack would come from the right and was correct, my greed got the better of me. In my rush to protect my Knight, I lost the game. 4 GS is all it takes to break your gunline.
Strangely enough, giving him 40 points was a poisoned chalice (never claim full points). He lost the next two games and ended with a worse record than me.
Game 5 vs. Deathwatch (Veterans, Terminators, etc.)
Spoiler:
Krast Crusader: First Knight, Sainted Ion; Death Watch specializes against Troops
Deployment: Search and Destroy
I took Butcher's Bill, Reaper, and Engineers. He took Headhunter, Kingslayer (Knight), and Marked for Death (3x Kataphrons, Kastelan Robots).
Beyond this point, I would like to point out that this game is NOT a good rubric for AdMech vs. Deathwatch play. I will explain what I would have done at the end. But in a bizarre turn of events, I was paired against one of my own teammates. Worse yet, it was perhaps his hardest matchup on some of the most sparse terrain either of us have seen. In short, it was impossible. However, given we were both out of contention for Top 8, I decided to make things interesting.
For the most part, I place my gunline along the edge of the deployment zone. My Knight is on the left of my guns. My opponent hid everything behind ruins; he ran out of space, so he deployed those units on the table edge, relying on teleportation to remedy his problem later. The Dreadnoughts are in the open, but they cannot be targeted because they have less than 10 wounds.
Round 1 - Shroudpsalm + Invocation
I Bolster Warriors and advance EVERYTHING toward the center-top ruins that my friend is hiding in. I advance my Knight to the far right. I fire my Lascannons at the unit in the far back corner and kill all but one Veteran. There is nothing else to shoot.
Because I advanced everything right into the open, my opponent guns down one unit of Vanguard, then charges my gunline. My Kataphrons and his Veterans and Terminators start punching each other. Remarkably, nobody else dies.
Round 2 - Chant + Invocation
My Knight reaches the far left objective and shoots at some Veterans to little effect. I move up more Vanguard to support the melee. My Kastelans and Ironstriders charge in, punching and kicking. My Kataphrons fight again. My opponent fights back as well. One Kataphron and a few Veterans die.
My opponents deep strikes all of his Death Watch in front of my Knight. He burns everything he has in his arsenal and brings him down to 1 wound. He charges; the Knight survives a round of attacks, only to fall on the second. I spend 2 CP and make him explode, dealing mortal wounds to everything within 12".
Round 3 - Chant + Shroudpsalm
I fall back with my Kastelans, Ironstriders, and two units of Kataphrons. I reform the gunline.
He deep strikes his Eversor. He moves his Dreadnoughts out and clears one unit of Kataphrons with Lascannons. His Eversor then makes a miraculous charge right into my Manipulus. I heroically intervene with Cawl. He fails to kill my Manipulus, leaving only one wound. He and Cawl together manage to slay the Eversor.
Round 4 - Shroudpsalm + Invocation
I root and shoot. I totally wipe out three full units of Deathwatch and reduce the last unit to a handful of units hiding behind the central ruins on my left. My Ironstriders execute a stray HQ unit.
He returns fire with his Dreadnoughts, killing one Ironstrider.
Round 5 - Shroudpsalm + Benediction
I kill one Dreadnought and wound the other. He miffs all of the lascannon shots against my Ironstriders.
Round 6 - Shroudpsalm + Invocation
I move with my Ironstriders to contest an objective. Three against one. He shoots and kills one with his Dreadnought. He charges them and fails to kill yet another.
24-26 (LOSS)
So yeah, I decided to count coup and make an insanely reckless assault against the Deathwatch with my artillery. Put your torches and pitchforks down. It was just my way to make things fair. Normally, my strategy would be to slowly move up the gunline while screening out all Deep Strike options. He would have to expose himself to my Dakkabots' guns to do anything at all. And given I killed 3/4s of his entire army in a single round of totally non-interactive shooting in this game, I hope you can see why. In any case, we both had loads of fun. This was definitely the most exciting and enjoyable match of the tourney for me. We both went on to win our next games. He ended up rank #45 with a 4-2 record, and I am 100% sure I could shut out the Ultramarines army he dealt with handily, so I am going to live that vicariously through him.
Game 6 vs. Space Wolves (Calvary Spam)
Spoiler:
Krast Crusader: First Knight, Sainted Ion
Deployment: Hammer and Anvil
I took Gang Busters, Kingslayer (Harald), and Engineers. He took Gang Busters, Kingslayer (Cawl), and Old School.
I deploy first. Because it is the long deployment, I know he will spend one turn in the open. So I deploy for depth; even if he seizes, I can move the screens into position before he arrives. My goal is to control the two chokes in front of the objective and just gun down everything I can with clear lines of sight. His goal, obviously, is to overrun me, and he deploys options for both sides.
Round 1 - Shroudpsalm + Invocation
I move my screens into position. I root and shoot, killing one unit of wolves, all but one Hammer Cavalry, and half of the Sword Cavalry. My Knight kills half a unit of Wolves and one Axe Cavalry. My Breachers and Ironstriders damage his Grimnar on Stormrider, which has no Stormshield and a lower invulnerable save.
He advances.
Round 2 - Shroudpsalm + Chant
I finish off one unit of Wolves and the Sword Cavalry. I shoot and charge the Axe Cavalry with my Knight, but he saves everything just about.
He moves and charges into my Knight and Breachers. The unit on my right is immediately killed. He consolidates into the second line.
Round 3 - Chant + Shroudpsalm
I am faced with a dilemma. I cannot shoot the Canis until I kill the sole remaining Hammer Cavalry and Grimnar; his Harald is loitering in the back because he is a Kingslayer target. I miff all my shots on the Hammer Cavalry, so I am forced to just dump everything into the Stormrider and overkill it. Canis kills additional Breachers during fighting, freeing him from combat. My Knight falls back and then shoots and charges, killing off the last of the wolves and reducing the Axe Cavalry to one wound; he fights back, bringing my Knight very low.
He manages to move up his Canis and charges my Kastelans. I overwatch, but fail to kill him; I looked up his stats in the codex... apparently, he only has a 3+, not a 3++, so that thing was way harder to kill than I thought. His Rune Priest also gets stuck in. I heroically intervene with Cawl, who deals more damage to Canis. Harald moves and assassinates an Enginseer to deny me Champion bonus points. The Axe Cavalry kills my Knight.
Round 4 - Invocation + Chant
My Vanguard and Breachers shoot and kill the Axe Cavalry on my right. FINALLY. They then charge and injure the Rune Priest. Cawl kills Canis in fighting. Harald is within 6" of the Kataphron base and heroically intervenes (unavoidable). Meanwhile, my Manipulus and Skitarii start grabbing objectives by going behind the melee on my right.
The Rune Priest kills Cawl with psychic spells. The Breachers kill the Rune Priest. Harald kills the Breachers and consolidates into the Kastelans.
Round 5 - Shroudpsalm + Electromancer
I begin to move my Ironstriders around the fixed Kastelans. He kills one Kastelan.
He kills another Kastelan.
Round 6 - Electromancer + Electromancer
I charge my Ironstriders into Harald to try to score Kingslayer points. I fail. I also move my Enginseer up to repair, but it is too late. He kills one Kastelan.
Again, I fail to score Kingslayer points. On the last time, Harald kills my last Kastelan. Finally.
25-21 (WIN)
Well that was fun. If it were not for the long deployment, I probably may have been overwhelmed. Not much thinking to this. Just lots of shooting and fighting.
--
Unit Evaluations:
Dakkabots are still solid. Of course, I got tied up twice this tourney. I need more screening units or a counter-charger to stop them midfield.
Ironstriders are amazingly good. They pretty much always wound 6-8 times and deal a ton of damage to anything lacking an invulnerable save.
Breachers are not good at shooting, except against light vehicles, and they are not good at fighting. But they are cheap and have a decent body, so there's that. I do think I need more of them if I want to continue playing AdMech competitively.
Krast Crusader adds a lot of consistency to the list. He can function independently and performs decently well against 10W+ targets. But otherwise, he can feel underwhelming and strategically risky. He often has to use his feet to make up his points, and most lists have a way to kill a Knight. Thus, he tends to give up a lot of VP. Another Gang Buster unit would be better, since I have so many already.
He also gets lots of compliments. And that always feels good.
Spoiler:
Alas, I am thinking of cutting him in favor of Stygies VIII 6x Dragoons and 3x Kataphrons. I will probably run them 1x6 and 2x3 because I have found that I struggle keeping them all in range of my Cawl rerolls.
--
In the end, I came out of this tournament officially ranked #84 and 3-3 (still the best AdMech), but my teammate, who won our fun game, was rank #45 and 4-2. (I personally think I would have gotten 4-2, but I'm not really in it for a number.)
In my opinion, AdMech is a Tier 2 army (usually 4-2, sometimes 5-1). It's definitely the best shooting list in the meta right now, but it's really underrated compared to Tau. Everyone I have played tells me afterwards that they are intimidated by just how much shooting there is in this list. This list of mine seems to work best using a dominant strategy, not a reactive one. But it has weaknesses. It lacks a true tank with T8 toughness, flying melee units, psykers, non-LOS shooting, and (thus far) a reliable transport. Instead, we have lots of "tank destroyer" type units. Doing mono-faction means you lose access to Wyverns, Basilisks, Guardsmen, or Smash/Shield-Captains, so I do think this pure shooting approach is the way to go for now. Maybe Fulgurites will become more viable with the Skorpius though.
This message was edited 7 times. Last update was at 2019/05/26 10:07:47
I expected 4-2, and I think I achieved it; I know the number says 3-3, but I personally know that it would have been 4-2 if it were not for the fact that I was matched against my own teammate. It goes against my personal reasons for playing Warhammer if I can't have fun with the people I know. I mean, if we were 3-1 each going into that, sure, he would understand me crushing him to try to advance to Sunday, but if it's just for a number, pshhh.
I do feel less powerful without Guardsmen, though a part of that is just my inexperience with Breachers. In my view, they rarely put wounds on anything. Same for Skitarii. (Rangers are actually better than Vanguard for the anti-infantry use case that I have in mind for them.) But they are cheap and very durable.
Nope. Soup is still king on West Coast. The only thing the faction change has done is to make AdMech rarer. There were only three running it at BAO, and I did way better than the other two.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/05/26 14:10:50
@Aaranis
Mostly, yes. Their shooting is mediocre; you need to spend 1 CP for formation and have a Dominus to give them +1, but Cawl already gives comparable odds and safety from -2 to hit (77% vs 75%). Their fighting is mediocre as well. They miss 2 of their 3 attacks quite often. And you pretty much need to give your target -1T for them to effectively clear infantry. Still, better than Skitarii.
Their bodies are what make them useful. T5 is the magic number to resist the bolter shots typically used to clear infantry. The 2+/6++ profile is also very nice.
I am already working on a new list. I am considering making the Battalion Stygies and mixing my Mars detachment. Downside is that those Enginseers become totally useless just about. But I save 1 CP and a detachment slot; not sure if I can use it though.
@Ideasweasel
I went to a Major with mono and was the best in faction already; not my best performance though, but eh, it's something. I have no RTT or GT for the year though. Anyhow, I intend to attend two more Majors this year. So I will stick with it. The LVO score will be the most important one.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/26 15:31:53
Suzuteo wrote: I expected 4-2, and I think I achieved it; I know the number says 3-3, but I personally know that it would have been 4-2 if it were not for the fact that I was matched against my own teammate. It goes against my personal reasons for playing Warhammer if I can't have fun with the people I know. I mean, if we were 3-1 each going into that, sure, he would understand me crushing him to try to advance to Sunday, but if it's just for a number, pshhh.
I do feel less powerful without Guardsmen, though a part of that is just my inexperience with Breachers. In my view, they rarely put wounds on anything. Same for Skitarii. (Rangers are actually better than Vanguard for the anti-infantry use case that I have in mind for them.) But they are cheap and very durable.
Nope. Soup is still king on West Coast. The only thing the faction change has done is to make AdMech rarer. There were only three running it at BAO, and I did way better than the other two.
What's this talk about the faction change? Did they make it where you need a larger chunk of your army to be one codex to not count as soup or something?
'I've played Guard for years, and the best piece of advice is to always utilize the Guard's best special rule: "we roll more dice than you" ' - stormleader
"Sector Imperialis: 25mm and 40mm Round Bases (40+20) 26€ (Including 32 skulls for basing) " GW design philosophy in a nutshell
I believe ITC changed how factions are represented. Last year was based on majority faction in your list. Ie if you took majority 1500 Admech and 500 points of guard you were considered Admech. Now under the new system you would be considered imperium unless you are a full 2000 points in Admech
Automatically Appended Next Post: @Suzuteo well best of luck for those and keep us posted on the progress. My next one isnt till November.
ITC is a lot more popular in England than Scotland.
But it’s growing so hopefully more tournaments start springing up.
I think I’m going to hang fire purchasing breachers till after the tug boats get released.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/05/26 16:15:10
@MrMoustaffa
As Ideasweasel said, an AdMech list now has to be 100% AdMech codex. It also includes an exception for one Knight as a SH Auxiliary detachment (because they are in our codex, though we can use the rules from their codex).
@Ideasweasel
Good call. I might just run extra Skitarii Rangers until then as well. I actually had good experiences with them. RF S4 shooting is very reliable; I can knock a wound or two off a Stormshield unit with them. 6+ FNP also can make a big difference when it goes off.
Engineers is a very good secondary for us, an army that sits on its butt and holds out. I always gave it to my two Rangers to camp the backfield with.
Something like this, which is what I am thinking of moving toward:
Spoiler:
Mars Battalion Detachment - 1320 Cybernetica Cohort (-1 CP)
HQ - 280 1x Belisarius Cawl - Warlord
1x Tech-Priest Manipulus - Transonic Cannon, Relic: Raiment of the Techno-Martyr
A returning question but... how do we nowadays deal against 3 knights + addons (Deathwatch for instance) as monofaction list? Apart from the avoidance play. I got this thing 2/3 games in my last tournament, and nothing seems to work well enough.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/27 09:11:22
1) Ryza plasmaphrons 1 unit only glass cannon kills 1 knightish but will be murdered by the other knight shortly after.
2) Stygies dragoons can half kill a knight on the charge and damage resistant 1 unit only
3) Mars Infiltrators wont hit till t2 but can half kill a knight in mortals 1unit only
4) Neutron Onagers bread and butter inconsistant but hard hitting
5) Agripinaa Breachers these with the eye of agripinaa will chip away at knights and the agripinaa strat gives them survivability
6) Hoplites are surprisingly effective vs knights in CC thats 21 s6 d3 dam attacks that you can make hit on 2+ rerolling 1 with a strat + if you take hoplites yoy have the omniscient mask. Mean while when the knight hits back it may take a mortal great vs melee knights that come to you
7) Agripinaa Vanguard spam 8 squads 320pts with the eye of agripinaa and reroll 1's will deal 24 wounds by expectancy benefits of rolling 120 2 dam dice. And rerolling hit/W of 1 even better vs chaos knights
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2019/05/27 09:39:08
4 heavy phosphor blaster Kastelans with Cawl + WoM + Elimination Volley on average take one Knight down to lowest profile, Breachers and Destroyers can finish it off and partially damage a second Knight. Manipulus can help with an extra 6" on ranged weapons. Neutrons, Arc weapons, Fulgerites, Krast Crusader/Styrix etc. We're not badly equipped to deal with Knights really, though three of them would be quite intimidating particularly if we don't get first turn.
dadamowsky wrote: A returning question but... how do we nowadays deal against 3 knights + addons (Deathwatch for instance) as monofaction list? Apart from the avoidance play. I got this thing 2/3 games in my last tournament, and nothing seems to work well enough.
You don't. Focus on objectives. Take Kingslayer and kill one Knight, any one will do; I would recommend you do it early, when your damage output is at its greatest. As stated above, we are the army with some of the least Knight worries. Then spend the rest of the time killing as many of his supporting infantry and artillery as you can. Strive to hold more. Things like Engineers is also great, unless they have got non-LOS shooting.
Also, keep in mind that Knights can only fall back over infantry. So he cannot move or charge over infantry. Nor can he fall back over vehicles or cavalry. Mess with his limited movement.
Oh, also keep in mind that Knights only seem scary, but their wound output is mediocre, especially against infantry. Think about it. A Krast Crusader outputs 21 shots on average, but costs over 500 points.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/05/27 10:25:58
@RiceFields92
Krast has the best Household WLT, which lets you RR1 to hit in fighting and shooting. Also, Crusader does not have enough dakka to justify the CP for Raven.
For Relic, I always go for Sainted Ion (2+) or the Krast Relic (+1D vs. 10W+, another +1D vs Titan).
@VladimirHerzog
Yep. You can see in my BAO Battle Report. Game two, I killed a Renegade Knight in round 1.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/27 18:30:23
Thanks guys. I do not agree about the Neutrager though - the math (and my experience) is pretty abysmal for the loadout. 3,5 wounds on average is not really worth trying IMO.
I am however curious about the Vanguard spam - the mathhammer looks pretty neat on them, considering the points cost, but there's an 18" problem... Did you manage to successfully bring them in range to a knight, before all those Avengers and Ironstorms, and adds like Deathwatch, took their toll? The same question is pointed to the Eye bearer btw.
Plus, how do you deploy all those Vanguards - I can't realistically expect enough ruins for 40 models.
Praise the Omnissiah
