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3 Neutron Crawlers and 6 Kastelans works. I personally just prefer to diversify. 2 Icarus, 2 Neutron, 4 Kastelans handles a meta where your primary threats are hordes and not massed tanks, which get handled by Dragoons anyway.

I am wondering if a Catachan Earthshaker could get close to the same firepower as the 3x lascannon HWT. About 5 shots instead of 3, but need Harker if you want a reroll, and d3 damage not d6. Same strength and AP. The FAQ buffs feels significant.

Yoda79 wrote:
I tried to convince many in here when codex released the proper way is 3 neutronagers.

And it didn't factor in until the Guard Codex released. Now, it is far more prudent since we will see less dude spam and more armor. Even still, three may be overkill. Got to see how the meta shakes out.

And I too fear cheap lascannon spam. It really wrecks out Robots when it is en masse.

Neutrons are not kind to me, the D3 hates me and so do my wound rolls

In ITC, I am thinking 3x Neutron over Celestine and 2x Neutron. Right now Celestine gives up max points on Kingslayer and Headhunter (if geminae, which you should be running) every game. A third Neutron is a 3rd BGH point, but if your opponent kills all 3 Onagers then you are not winning that game anyways. Celestine is very good at killing infantry hiding somewhere on the far side of the board and killing flimsy characters who try to hide. Earthshakers can do the infantry killing job quite well post FAQ thanks to the new -3. The character assasination that Celestine does can't be replaced. Assassins aren't even close to as powerful as Celestine, even in pairs.

A third Neutron will contribute to you winning the game from turn 1 until it blows up. Celestine is really great at the end of the game for wiping up hiding characters using her effective 24" flying movement.

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

Yoda79 wrote:
I tried to convince many in here when codex released the proper way is 3 neutronagers.

And it didn't factor in until the Guard Codex released. Now, it is far more prudent since we will see less dude spam and more armor. Even still, three may be overkill. Got to see how the meta shakes out.

And I too fear cheap lascannon spam. It really wrecks out Robots when it is en masse.

Again, Icarus Crawlers. They are superior to Neutron for HWTs and Bash Brothers, and they make Tau and Eldar cry. (Scat Bike spam might be a thing again.)

Wulfey wrote:
In ITC, I am thinking 3x Neutron over Celestine and 2x Neutron. Right now Celestine gives up max points on Kingslayer and Headhunter (if geminae, which you should be running) every game. A third Neutron is a 3rd BGH point, but if your opponent kills all 3 Onagers then you are not winning that game anyways. Celestine is very good at killing infantry hiding somewhere on the far side of the board and killing flimsy characters who try to hide. Earthshakers can do the infantry killing job quite well post FAQ thanks to the new -3. The character assasination that Celestine does can't be replaced. Assassins aren't even close to as powerful as Celestine, even in pairs.

A third Neutron will contribute to you winning the game from turn 1 until it blows up. Celestine is really great at the end of the game for wiping up hiding characters using her effective 24" flying movement.

Wait. So 6 Earthshakers and 3 Neutron Crawlers? It seems to be overkill on the anti-tank. >_>

I thought Wulfy had built only 3 earth shakers that I had seen, so that would be 3 and 3.

I am currently building my 3rd earthshaker platform, and about to build a 3rd Onager which will swap out to be a Leman Russ.

Also going to be building a Baneblade walker but that's a whole other barrel of conversion worms.

He said he was going for 6.

Also, remember that Scat Bikes are going from 35 points each to 28 points each. So it's 252 points for a unit that has 36 S6 AP0 D1 shots at 36" range on a T4 W2 body with M16". x_x

6? Dang, nice.

EDIT: Re-read, for screening, interesting idea. I have been thinking maybe Tarantulas for that purpose, 72 points for 6 heavy bolters.

 ph34r wrote:
I thought Wulfy had built only 3 earth shakers that I had seen, so that would be 3 and 3.

I am currently building my 3rd earthshaker platform, and about to build a 3rd Onager which will swap out to be a Leman Russ.

Also going to be building a Baneblade walker but that's a whole other barrel of conversion worms.

how did you convert your earthshakers?

Iago40k wrote:

 ph34r wrote:
I thought Wulfy had built only 3 earth shakers that I had seen, so that would be 3 and 3.

I am currently building my 3rd earthshaker platform, and about to build a 3rd Onager which will swap out to be a Leman Russ.

Also going to be building a Baneblade walker but that's a whole other barrel of conversion worms.

how did you convert your earthshakers?

I posted this many pages back:

If you want to build some "ph34r pattern earthshakers", the recipie and result is as follows:

Dunecrawler Legs $9.00:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/362123803924

Dunecrawler Abdomen $2.50:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/352170024894

Quantum Gothic Quantum Cannon $22.00:
http://www.quantumgothicwars.com/tabletop-gaming-scenery/quantum-cannon

130mm round base $7.50:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/263210127263

Total cost: $41.00

Result:



Build the Dunecrawler legs like normal, and then cut off the entirety of the hemisphere on top so you have a flat surface.
I like to then also cut just the claw part off of each foot and reposition them so they are more splayed out to the side, instead of vertical like a walking Crawler.

I also used magnets to let the cannon move around.

hmmmmm. Considering getting triarios armored conveyors for use as chimeras until i can use them as what htey are.....

I really want to acquire some 30k Mechanicus but I'm not sure what's safe to buy and what isn't... ;_;

I consider 2 balistarii to swap an onager. So most likely I d run 2 neutron and 2 lasc balistarii.

If it was a plain question neutronager or earthshakers or balistarii I prefer neutronager. The issue rise for...

1) I consider ironstriders and dragoons and lascbal to cover a second role in stygia. 2 forms 1*4 dragoons for ssault with +2 buff but also 1*4 balistarii for the same reason.
Still since I can't seem to have n effective Celestine I yet prefer 1*3-4 dragoons. So here comes the question do I pay 52 for a healer enginseers on my balistarii and erthshker so I can get an outrider stygia with 2*1 lascb and 1*3-4 dragoons?

2) same question about earthshakers I can't take 2-3 cause they are forgeworld an in game I usually try basilisk. One basilik ND one Hwt+ratlings (same points so feel free to swap). It's not the same but feel free to try whatever your local allows . Again if it was basilisk or neutron I d take neutron minly cause adeptus mechanicus works better with nice guns nice invu reroll canticles . I don't find that in any other imperium atm. But earth shakers shoot los targets. There is the issue. So as I said what is the proper combination

A) I don't consider 3 neutron overkill nor now not cause of meta. Why cause the d3 shots some times don't do much. And I use them effectively even vs chars. Tau lost cause of ongers not icarus. That -4 can't be found elsewhere and when my enemy focus on the robots or they loose I need heavy shooting after that. And yes you might win games with hordes easier but you won't in knights heavy tanks armor lists razorback etc. You can shoot neutronager to chars mass etc effectively but won't win a fortifacation with icarus. And there are a lot of tranposrt lists turox list knight list . Lots just because if you invest in t8 plasma only you loose. It's the first antilist. Take a knight take chars.
Lots of str 6-7 shot when you got 4-6 robots icarus autocannon is overkill. You LL be shooting troops with 4 str 7 shots for what?

So to sum up my intention to justify no icarus but 3 neutron was because 3 seemed to me to deliver. Effectively consistent and role. Your list could justify an antitank role. 2 neutron 1 icarus might do it. Might play better vs tau or eldar but most likely would not be an antitank role.

Now we got basilisk or 2 -3 earth. 2-4 lascbal. And 2-3 neutronagers. Overkill. So what's the sweet spot? It seems in a soup list more logical 2neutron 1 icarus when you have also balistarii and /or shakers.

https://regimental-standard.com/2017/10/25/the-history-of-the-imperium-tanks-of-old-terra/

Anyone know how cannon this is cause I'd so do a guard Detatchment if I could use T-54s as leman russ tanks.

gendoikari87 wrote:
https://regimental-standard.com/2017/10/25/the-history-of-the-imperium-tanks-of-old-terra/

Anyone know how cannon this is cause I'd so do a guard Detatchment if I could use T-54s as leman russ tanks.

Technically canon, because that is a GW site. But it is of course in jest.

Sweet so can I get t-90s in 40k please, some enterprising explorator has to have the stc somewhere....

Yeah, my current model count and lists only support 3 and 3.
3 Neutrons and 3 Earthshakers.

About converting earthshaker platforms. I talked to some guys and they said that the real thing is actually larger than we thought. I have the center base and gun big and high enough, but the struts need to be seriously long and there needs to be 4 of them. If I play mine in a competitive setting again I am adding more struts.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_kX3htCfXgVU/SiYFX1yA_tI/AAAAAAAAB-k/hxFUgHPWc3Q/s400/earthshaker2.jpg

EDIT: I have another reason why I don't like icarus. They take longer to play and remember. Every shot is 3 different wounding profiles. Neutron is 2 and they are easier to roll. And everything that the Icarus is better at than the Neutron is actually something I should be shooting with the robots. Nobody brings Flyers with invulnerable saves right now. And the Neutron counters what the robots can't. If I am shooting at an invul save target, then I prefer my robots.

Just as a heads up the new neceomunda has gene enhanced house guard if you want to convert up some skitarii

I was thinking about something like this:

I cut a lot of the HQs to fit in some Guard utility. I think Conscripts are still good with Valhallan doctrine. Valhallan doctrine also lets my Tank Commander fight on while damaged. (There is also the option to send in the next wave, but I probably won't bother.)

Reduced the Dragoon count down to 6, which is 4 with redundancy. Not sure if I will like it.

To be honest, it's still a bit up in the air how good the CP recycling is. I might just go with Wulfey's route of Earthshakers with a Company Commander. (At least then my tax Enginseers can still repair.)

What about the idea of putting in a pair of Infantry and combining them? Just a thought - you will get perhaps more utility there?

Wulfey wrote:

EDIT: I have another reason why I don't like icarus. They take longer to play and remember. Every shot is 3 different wounding profiles. Neutron is 2 and they are easier to roll. And everything that the Icarus is better at than the Neutron is actually something I should be shooting with the robots. Nobody brings Flyers with invulnerable saves right now. And the Neutron counters what the robots can't. If I am shooting at an invul save target, then I prefer my robots.

What? Every Chaos and Eldar army brings flyers with invulnerable saves.

Suzuteo wrote:

Wulfey wrote:

EDIT: I have another reason why I don't like icarus. They take longer to play and remember. Every shot is 3 different wounding profiles. Neutron is 2 and they are easier to roll. And everything that the Icarus is better at than the Neutron is actually something I should be shooting with the robots. Nobody brings Flyers with invulnerable saves right now. And the Neutron counters what the robots can't. If I am shooting at an invul save target, then I prefer my robots.

What? Every Chaos and Eldar army brings flyers with invulnerable saves.

In all my Socal Open games, I can think of no situation where i would have preferred the icarus.

Neutrons aced a guard flier and guard cars first game.
Neutrons did work against knights second game.
Neutrons were essential to hurting plagueburst crawlers third game.
Neutrons aced eldar flier and killed wave serpents 4th game.
Neutrons wrecked tau tanks 5th game.
Neutrons did most of damage to wave serpents 6th game.

Icarus is superior against none of those targets. Wave serpecnts have -1 to all damage, so volume of fire doesn't work against them. Icarus also sucks against T8 targets. If you fail to bring something to answer T8, then you will lose to T8.

EDIT: yes, I know, BUT WHAT ABOUT HORDES WULFEY? ICARUS IS SLIGHTLY BETTER AGAINST HORDES? Who cares about hordes. If you are bringing dakka bots then horde armies are just feed. I didn't face a single horde enemy and I wish I did.
I can think of 2 common targets where the Icarus is better. Harlequin/DE tiny tank fliers that have -1 and 5++, and the Chaos flyer mecha dragon that has a 5++. Those are some of the weakest possible opponents and the rest of your army should be able to flatten those things.

You didn't have any Icarus to compare against though.

Icarus is superior to Neutron for most Tau and Eldar units (including their transports and tanks), against Daemon Primarchs, and for when you run into a horde army.

Wulfey wrote:
EDIT: yes, I know, BUT WHAT ABOUT HORDES WULFEY? ICARUS IS SLIGHTLY BETTER AGAINST HORDES? Who cares about hordes. If you are bringing dakka bots then horde armies are just feed. I didn't face a single horde enemy and I wish I did.
I can think of 2 common targets where the Icarus is better. Harlequin/DE tiny tank fliers that have -1 and 5++, and the Chaos flyer mecha dragon that has a 5++. Those are some of the weakest possible opponents and the rest of your army should be able to flatten those things.

Not slightly. Way better. With Neutron, you're dealing a maximum of 3 wounds to a unit of Boyz. Also, 6 Kastelans cannot stop a horde; there is literally no chance because lascannons outrange them, and you need to root yourself to get the efficiency.

Anyhow, I'm not saying everyone should replace all Neutrons with Icarus. Also not saying that 6 Kastelans and 3 Neutron is a bad combination. I just don't think you should be dismissive of Icarus when they are clearly more effective than Neutron against a variety of targets.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, Wave Serpents cannot reduce damage lower than 1. And even in the case of common Eldar flyers without Forceshields, Icarus Crawlers are on-par or superior to Neutron:

Icarus vs. Wave Serpent
41.48 points per wound

Icarus vs. Hemlock
23.30 points per wound

Neutron vs. Wave Serpent
39.37 points per wound

Neutron vs. Hemlock
35 points per wound

Wulfey wrote:
Yeah, my current model count and lists only support 3 and 3.
3 Neutrons and 3 Earthshakers.

About converting earthshaker platforms. I talked to some guys and they said that the real thing is actually larger than we thought. I have the center base and gun big and high enough, but the struts need to be seriously long and there needs to be 4 of them. If I play mine in a competitive setting again I am adding more struts.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_kX3htCfXgVU/SiYFX1yA_tI/AAAAAAAAB-k/hxFUgHPWc3Q/s400/earthshaker2.jpg

EDIT: I have another reason why I don't like icarus. They take longer to play and remember. Every shot is 3 different wounding profiles. Neutron is 2 and they are easier to roll. And everything that the Icarus is better at than the Neutron is actually something I should be shooting with the robots. Nobody brings Flyers with invulnerable saves right now. And the Neutron counters what the robots can't. If I am shooting at an invul save target, then I prefer my robots.

I have seen before Earthshaker Platforms based on the forge world Turret Emplacement, and as such I interpret that size to be acceptable for an earthshaker platform:

@ suzuteo list.

I found rather effective to use armies according to their strengths .

So guard form nicely and cheap with a battalion. No need conscripts commisars bla bla. A simple commander los. And one more to lead 3 infantry 180 points.

Stygia work perfect with outrider and lots of dragoons and balistarii for screen. One enginseers is enough healing and lower tax. And why take rangers when you can take infantry and dragoons.

With this setup especially if I get also basilisk or 1-2 shakers I can see 2 neutron 1 icarus yes. That's why I asked what's your favorite setup. I have not yet lost with this sort of list but I have to say .

Outrider stygia vs all mars is way different.
Celestine or more ironstrider is different.
Basilisk hwt and ratlings vs 2 earth also different.

As I said I don't have Celestine so it was easy to change to ourider. Same goes for earth . I got a basilisk and 3 neutronagers
And worked for me so far. Need feedback on 2 shakers and 2 neutron 1 icarus!! But won't fit all that.most likely will ditch the icarus...?

Random question:

Is it kosher to change base sizes? I hate the fact that, if your Onagers are not based, they are flat out better because you can fit them in smaller spaces. The 130mm base is huge compared to an Onager particularly if you do not put the extended pads on it.

However, I think walkers without bases look ugly. So I have a choice between, have units I think are ugly, or take bases that make them significantly worse.

Is there a third option? Can I just rebase my Onagers onto 100mm bases? Then, rather than swimming in extra room, they would just barely fit.

Too bad guard doesnt have interesting artillery on tracks like the astartes. We could dust of our kataphrons for that^^

I avoid using Onager bases mainly because it's really hard to have vehicles move across uneven terrain on their bases. It's so much easier to have them at an angled inclination without the base.

Suzuteo wrote:
You didn't have any Icarus to compare against though.

Icarus is superior to Neutron for most Tau and Eldar units (including their transports and tanks), against Daemon Primarchs, and for when you run into a horde army.

Wulfey wrote:
EDIT: yes, I know, BUT WHAT ABOUT HORDES WULFEY? ICARUS IS SLIGHTLY BETTER AGAINST HORDES? Who cares about hordes. If you are bringing dakka bots then horde armies are just feed. I didn't face a single horde enemy and I wish I did.
I can think of 2 common targets where the Icarus is better. Harlequin/DE tiny tank fliers that have -1 and 5++, and the Chaos flyer mecha dragon that has a 5++. Those are some of the weakest possible opponents and the rest of your army should be able to flatten those things.

Not slightly. Way better. With Neutron, you're dealing a maximum of 3 wounds to a unit of Boyz. Also, 6 Kastelans cannot stop a horde; there is literally no chance because lascannons outrange them, and you need to root yourself to get the efficiency.

Anyhow, I'm not saying everyone should replace all Neutrons with Icarus. Also not saying that 6 Kastelans and 3 Neutron is a bad combination. I just don't think you should be dismissive of Icarus when they are clearly more effective than Neutron against a variety of targets.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, Wave Serpents cannot reduce damage lower than 1. And even in the case of common Eldar flyers without Forceshields, Icarus Crawlers are on-par or superior to Neutron:

Icarus vs. Wave Serpent
41.48 points per wound

Icarus vs. Hemlock
23.30 points per wound

Neutron vs. Wave Serpent
39.37 points per wound

Neutron vs. Hemlock
35 points per wound

I am on my laptop so I can't format my numbers right, but I am not getting numbers like yours.

Neutron v Wave Serpent:
3*0.88*0.33*0.33 + 2*0.88*0.67*((2+2+2+3+4+5)/6) = 3.89 expected wounds on a 3+ to hit rerolling
ICarus v Wave Serpent
4*0.97*0.5*0.5*1 + 5*0.97*0.33*0.67*1 + 1*0.97*0.67*0.16*((1+1+2+3+4+5)/6) = 2.31 on a 2+ to hit rerolling

And all these numbers are actually lower due to the 6+ FNP these things have