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I don't play ad mech cause they are top tier or low tier. I might not take them when I plan to play vs super competitive armies but either way I play them. It's an army with it's story great looks and I can easily say one of the best if not the best Ally to take.
When we started debating here about bad codex units tactics I considered all was clear on that. And every single player new to the game when he ask what play I say. What you really like above all. You LL buy it fix it paint it and play it. It's a hobby game a collection and a story.
If you play in team tours I don't believe adeptus mechanicus has anything less than any other army if we take the role of antitank antiair role. What's the problem. In solo games imperial soup works better in many armies and it's obvious if you min max best units from more armies you LL prolly get better results.
And we have been playing from day one. Conclaves priest wolf's inq Psy assassin's Sisters custodes you name it.
Thats war. I don't want transports.our troops first thing they cut their feet for endless walk . I want my army to be proper. I d prefer a scout dunestrider etc rule. I'd prefer point reduction to get more bodies. I'd prefer a flier transport to get my vehicle also moving . That's kind of design. I will not use a chimera and atm none uses it. Who cares about it. Really. Get your crawlers with dominus and move the field with troops simple things you got weapons to do the job.
And the rest do the same. Spam razorbacks ok spam onagers why the rest are better ?? We all got - + use them. And if at the end you come short or maybe the play style don't suit you then pick another army and start evolvimg it.
There are issue we will try to address them but the army atm got some serious stuff. Onagers Robots Dragoons snipers priests you can do some serious things . Try some combinations.
Is there any form of consensus on which would be better, Plasma or Grav Kataphron Destroyers?
Apologies if it's been settled somewhere in the thread, but I honestly can't remember reading it.
Of course, given Chapter Approved may change points, which is better could easily swing.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/11/10 23:03:24
Prestor Jon wrote: Because children don't have any legal rights until they're adults. A minor is the responsiblity of the parent and has no legal rights except through his/her legal guardian or parent.
The best arguments I heard were for kataphron breachers with arc rifles, since they are tougher and cheaper. Their damage output is just terrible, but at least .. you know I can't finish that sentence. I would never ever run them in a competitive environment.
MrDwhitey wrote: As someone who has 4 boxes of Kataphrons this talk has me a little worried.
They're not bad, just way too expensive for what they do. Given the points reductions flying around chapter approved, there's a good chance all the stuff we have thats currently not worth it could be made useful purely by being cheaper.
What is this stupid idea of "not bad but way too expensive" I keep seeing. Stats and weapons mean literally NOTHING without the context of price in pts.
T99 6768 wounds, 100'' S90 AP8 Deals 12D6 mortal wounds; doesn't mean he's good if he costs 9999999999 pts
T3, 1w doesn't mean terrible if it costs 1pts
Here's another problem with Destroyers. Plasma are the really useful ones, but they're mostly just useful anti tank. If you could up their BS to 3+ they're decent anti tank..... problem is they're not as good as neutronagers. point for point if you increased their BS to 3 they do ever so slightly more damage on a T5 frame without a 5+ rerollable invuln
Currently the only reason to use destroyers is as a way to buff dakkastallens for FWs other than mars. They aren't bad at it either, and with plasma they aren't a total waste of space. Still, probably better to just take more kastallens.
MrDwhitey wrote: As someone who has 4 boxes of Kataphrons this talk has me a little worried.
They're not bad, just way too expensive for what they do. Given the points reductions flying around chapter approved, there's a good chance all the stuff we have thats currently not worth it could be made useful purely by being cheaper.
What is this stupid idea of "not bad but way too expensive" I keep seeing. Stats and weapons mean literally NOTHING without the context of price in pts.
T99 6768 wounds, 100'' S90 AP8 Deals 12D6 mortal wounds; doesn't mean he's good if he costs 9999999999 pts
T3, 1w doesn't mean terrible if it costs 1pts
Typically it refers to the matter that, while the unit functions as intended and doesn't need more rules, it's mildly overcosted to do that job. There's several kinds of rebalance, and this is the kind where the unit just needs a price cut rather than additional rules or both.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
As they are not for tour competitive. If you just wanna test around or maybe don't have enough robots bla bla. I'd say.
3 onagers
2 balistarii lasc.
If you don't have any of the above then try plasma destroyers points accordingly.
Robots 4-6
If you don't have then take grav accordingly.
Same goes for lower point games when you want the dakka in a troops slot.
Try to have Cawl buffing two robots and the unit of destroyers since the bs 4+ is bad with only rerolling 1s. You can take snipers plasma vang and dominus for mobility etc. I do the have to mention if you eventually end up with a unit of 6 then Ryza Agripinaa is your friend always aim for elimination volley if you got fistelans and grav. Plasma specialist fr Cawl plasma. Enjoy
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/11/11 21:54:07
So what is the glaring weakness we have that result in Ad Mech being non-competitive? Crawl + 4 Robots + Iccarus Dunecrawlers seem pretty devistating on paper; what tends to go wrong?
kastelen wrote: Anti tank will kill them, tarpitting will kill them and sniping cawl will kill them.
So, going Stygies for the -1 and swapping out Crawl for the Destroyers with Plasma and flamer may not be so crazy after all...
Not crazy, just really bad. Cawl is too much of a force multiplier, since our Robots hit on 4+. If they were 3+, I think I would not mind a TPD, because then its just 2's that miss (16%) vs 2's and 3's (33%). But yea, really it just isn't worth it. Also, having access to Wrath is vital. We can't handle threats like Magnus or Mortarion otherwise.
kastelen wrote: Anti tank will kill them, tarpitting will kill them and sniping cawl will kill them.
So, going Stygies for the -1 and swapping out Crawl for the Destroyers with Plasma and flamer may not be so crazy after all...
Not crazy, just really bad. Cawl is too much of a force multiplier, since our Robots hit on 4+. If they were 3+, I think I would not mind a TPD, because then its just 2's that miss (16%) vs 2's and 3's (33%). But yea, really it just isn't worth it. Also, having access to Wrath is vital. We can't handle threats like Magnus or Mortarion otherwise.
seriously people the robots are OP as hell you don't need them to be OP as hell x10 I've been going agrapinna and it's getting boring winning every game because nothing can touch the damn robots before they shoot them to pieces. in four games I've lost one to some chaos shenanigans (deepstriking quadruple terminators with meltas who through psyker abilities moved to within half) they were promptly put down when they charged by the remaining three bots when the terminators charged.
I imagine if you don't have to worry so much about charges stygies and TPD should do you fine, i've been taking a simple tech priest and wiping orks, chaos and nilla space marines off the board by turn three.
This is why i'm trading in mechanicus static gunline is about the only thing you can really do with them and it's boring and predicatable. 4-5 drops means you go first most of the time, you drop the threat to the robots turn 1, turn 2 you wipe out the troops, turn 3 mop up. Grey knight stike squads help with the mop up part if anyone tries to go hide behind buildings.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/11/12 18:26:54
kastelen wrote: Anti tank will kill them, tarpitting will kill them and sniping cawl will kill them.
Our artillery is pretty good at killing other anti-tank. Screens will stop tarpitting. I would laugh if anyone brings enough snipers to kill Cawl. The guy is still rather durable.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/11/12 19:32:59
kastelen wrote: Anti tank will kill them, tarpitting will kill them and sniping cawl will kill them.
Our artillery is pretty good at killing other anti-tank. Screens will stop tarpitting. I would laugh if anyone brings enough snipers to kill Cawl. The guy is still rather durable.
Indeed. Amusingly we actually have probably the best sniper weapon in the game outside of assassins on our side. Most others just get long range heavy bolters with less shots lol.
There’s an argument to be made the arquebus is better than vindicares. Both are situational. Vindicares are great against characters with invuln saves, the arquebus is a terrific guard killer.
gendoikari87 wrote: There’s an argument to be made the arquebus is better than vindicares. Both are situational. Vindicares are great against characters with invuln saves, the arquebus is a terrific guard killer.
Its also reasonable at plinking wounds off light/medium vehicles. even against invul saves theres always the chance for d3 mortals in addition.
My arquebuses were really useful almost in every game I played, so many times did they snipe the Warlord from across the map, through a tiny hole. They think they're safe, but they're not ! Last time it allowed me to balance a game from defeat to draw just by slaying the Warlord with 2W left who thought he would live one more day after killing my Infiltrators. Well he didn't !
Aaranis wrote: My arquebuses were really useful almost in every game I played, so many times did they snipe the Warlord from across the map, through a tiny hole. They think they're safe, but they're not ! Last time it allowed me to balance a game from defeat to draw just by slaying the Warlord with 2W left who thought he would live one more day after killing my Infiltrators. Well he didn't !
I wonder how that feels... having our sniper rifles actually hit and damage something. I've been running them for ages and just hate them now. Invariably only half hit (of two, lol). Then somehow I always fail to wound.
Aaranis wrote: My arquebuses were really useful almost in every game I played, so many times did they snipe the Warlord from across the map, through a tiny hole. They think they're safe, but they're not ! Last time it allowed me to balance a game from defeat to draw just by slaying the Warlord with 2W left who thought he would live one more day after killing my Infiltrators. Well he didn't !
I wonder how that feels... having our sniper rifles actually hit and damage something. I've been running them for ages and just hate them now. Invariably only half hit (of two, lol). Then somehow I always fail to wound.
that sounds like the opposite of tau drones I used to run. They killed everything.... in close combat
Aaranis wrote: My arquebuses were really useful almost in every game I played, so many times did they snipe the Warlord from across the map, through a tiny hole. They think they're safe, but they're not ! Last time it allowed me to balance a game from defeat to draw just by slaying the Warlord with 2W left who thought he would live one more day after killing my Infiltrators. Well he didn't !
I wonder how that feels... having our sniper rifles actually hit and damage something. I've been running them for ages and just hate them now. Invariably only half hit (of two, lol). Then somehow I always fail to wound.
Fret not, I had my share of fails too, the worst is the 2 on the Hit roll when you have a Dominus nearby. Or the classic failed wound roll of course. But double 6 on the Wound roll happens more often than not !
kastelen wrote: Anti tank will kill them, tarpitting will kill them and sniping cawl will kill them.
Our artillery is pretty good at killing other anti-tank. Screens will stop tarpitting. I would laugh if anyone brings enough snipers to kill Cawl. The guy is still rather durable.
Indeed. Amusingly we actually have probably the best sniper weapon in the game outside of assassins on our side. Most others just get long range heavy bolters with less shots lol.
I did the math in the previous thread. Vindicares are much more survivable, but with Cawl rerolls, two Arquebuses can do way more damage against a much wider variety of targets than a single Vindicare. Furthermore, Arquebuses make your Rangers something other than cannon fodder.
That being said, the math does not work out for snipers in general. Fact is, the targets you are shooting are either cheaper than the sniper or too durable to kill in a timely manner. In general, you are always better off leaving your Rangers as cannon fodder and investing the points in more threats than in a reactive solution to your opponent's threats.
You can also do as I and others have and skip the Rangers entirely in favor of Skitarii-counts-as-Guardsmen.
I am planning to do this myself:
Spoiler:
Cadian Battalion Detachment - 512
HQ - 60 1x Company Commander - Laspistol, Chainsword, Warlord: Grand Strategist
1x Company Commander - Laspistol, Chainsword, Kurov's Aquila
Heavy Support - 240 1x Earthshaker Battery
1x Earthshaker Battery
1x Earthshaker Battery
Lots of indirect fire support from the Guard; the rest of my list is very much direct artillery. Mortars can free up my Kastelans for anti-character duties; against a lot of armies, it's tough to decide what to shoot. For example, Daemon Primarchs vs. Horrors.
kastelen wrote: Anti tank will kill them, tarpitting will kill them and sniping cawl will kill them.
Our artillery is pretty good at killing other anti-tank. Screens will stop tarpitting. I would laugh if anyone brings enough snipers to kill Cawl. The guy is still rather durable.
Indeed. Amusingly we actually have probably the best sniper weapon in the game outside of assassins on our side. Most others just get long range heavy bolters with less shots lol.
I did the math in the previous thread. Vindicares are much more survivable, but with Cawl rerolls, two Arquebuses can do way more damage against a much wider variety of targets than a single Vindicare. Furthermore, Arquebuses make your Rangers something other than cannon fodder.
That being said, the math does not work out for snipers in general. Fact is, the targets you are shooting are either cheaper than the sniper or too durable to kill in a timely manner. In general, you are always better off leaving your Rangers as cannon fodder and investing the points in more threats than in a reactive solution to your opponent's threats.
You can also do as I and others have and skip the Rangers entirely in favor of Skitarii-counts-as-Guardsmen.
I am planning to do this myself:
Spoiler:
Cadian Battalion Detachment - 512
HQ - 60 1x Company Commander - Laspistol, Chainsword, Warlord: Grand Strategist
1x Company Commander - Laspistol, Chainsword, Kurov's Aquila
Heavy Support - 240 1x Earthshaker Battery
1x Earthshaker Battery
1x Earthshaker Battery
Lots of indirect fire support from the Guard; the rest of my list is very much direct artillery. Mortars can free up my Kastelans for anti-character duties; against a lot of armies, it's tough to decide what to shoot. For example, Daemon Primarchs vs. Horrors.
You better off with a heavy weapons team not infantry with mortars . Or if you don't have the slot astropaths. Troops especially guard can and will move in many games .Yes they can screen but there are many games that you don't need to be stationary. Move move move is a superb card obj taker. Those mortars just make your troops stationary. If possible take a heavy weapons team if no slots then I'd suggest deep strike units plasma ratlings or astropaths.
Snipers for me are extremely good. Stygies 162 points full group omnispex or 97 5 man two snipers force my enemy to cut the crap. I know killing a liutenant is less points 97for 60 but doing so first round with deep striking ratlings and two snipers was game changer for my opponents. Better vs guard good v orc ND generally if there is something moving aggressively in the map killing things always good to aim at it. I even used snipers to finish off tanks. Why not 7-2 d3 mortal -Cover is extreme. All fear it all shoot them every single game from plasma strikes to lasc bolter w/e they get shot. That's why I have them stygies.
2 shots 66 points with -1 stygies rest guarding my back and sides from deep strikes. Most of the games I end up snipers end where they start then robots then all the rest moved in front. Or with earthshkers obviously shakers back snipers side. Their 60 range a group of 5 provide the cheap unit I need with -1 to hit to stand there. 97 points well invested. And yes I know it's 6 staff priest going with Dragoons but I have tested and found I can't run effectively many units. Bigger Dragoons work better. And since I consider Robots auto include the yes dragoons. But it could work with priests as a big unit if you decide that's what you like. Most likely priest robots more effective cause of mortals but priest are low Robots are stationary. Need dragoons s to play the game.
Now I utilise outrider in my !ists so I found also the 2d6 run for my lasc balistarii or offensive Dragoons to be of use. Usually balistarii by the end fo the game can move to cap cards etc. And will shoot on a 5+ rerolling ones with canticles.
Future tip talk : if we have Cawl must and Robots. Then I m guessing here any point change on destroyers + any overall abjustm in lists like lower cost in our army. Would definitely results in thing a group of 3 destroyers with flamer and grav. A units proper to utilise infoslave skull gem is a weapon I could use. Atm you can risk it with dakka priests but as always destroyers will help robots bla bla. If only priests had any sunergy!!
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2017/11/14 12:08:48
