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So if chapter approved ends up being bad for us... do we have to use it in tournaments or can we opt not to?

gendoikari87 wrote:
So if chapter approved ends up being bad for us... do we have to use it in tournaments or can we opt not to?

I doubt we will even be mentioned at all.

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

gendoikari87 wrote:
So if chapter approved ends up being bad for us... do we have to use it in tournaments or can we opt not to?

I doubt we will even be mentioned at all.

pessimism aside do we have to use chapter approved in tournaments can we use it or will it be verboten

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

Wulfey wrote:
20 Pounds from the leak, so 35 USD?

EDIT: mark this down, Secutarii in Chapter Approved. I don't have anything to back this up. But they said we would eventually get rules for those little guys. I choose to believe.

FW in Chapter Approved by GW? Nope. I can't see them doing it.

It's already been confirmed that FW units will be addressed in Chapter Approved (this was in response to a question about Malefic Lords).

 Arachnofiend wrote:

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

Wulfey wrote:
20 Pounds from the leak, so 35 USD?

EDIT: mark this down, Secutarii in Chapter Approved. I don't have anything to back this up. But they said we would eventually get rules for those little guys. I choose to believe.

FW in Chapter Approved by GW? Nope. I can't see them doing it.

It's already been confirmed that FW units will be addressed in Chapter Approved (this was in response to a question about Malefic Lords).

Really? I hadn't heard that. Well, maybe we will finally get our Secutarii then. They might be the thing missing for us to adequately screen our army without using Guard or lots of expensive ($) Dragoons.

I’d just be giddy if the changed chimeras to have faction mechanicus forge world and the ability to transport skitarii

He’ll give the army a new rule, recall: for any vehicle with the imperium keyword add adeptus mechanicus and forgeworld to its factions and add skitarii to units it can transport

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

Wulfey wrote:
20 Pounds from the leak, so 35 USD?

EDIT: mark this down, Secutarii in Chapter Approved. I don't have anything to back this up. But they said we would eventually get rules for those little guys. I choose to believe.

FW in Chapter Approved by GW? Nope. I can't see them doing it.

It's already been confirmed that FW units will be addressed in Chapter Approved (this was in response to a question about Malefic Lords).

Really? I hadn't heard that. Well, maybe we will finally get our Secutarii then. They might be the thing missing for us to adequately screen our army without using Guard or lots of expensive ($) Dragoons.

Pretty sure it's just going to be some point updates for the more controversial FW units though, so I certainly wouldn't get any sorts of hopes up for secutarii

Nope. No AdMech stuff. It seems like rules for all the factions not getting a codex this year. Or ever, for that matter. (They will probably reprint all these rules in their respective codexes.) So no Secutarii unless they're going to be for Imperial Knights.

Points cost changes are expected for all factions.

That's what I thought as well regarding point changes.
So assuming we don't get any stat changes, what sort of point updates do you guys think are to be expected/hoped for?
My own predictions (and in some cases hopes)

-Kastellans switch prices, shooty ones become more expensive. (This would negatively impact most of us but it would be fun if the CC ones were more worth considering)

-Tech Priest Dominus drops 10 points in base cost (This would be real nice, though doubtful)

-Russtalkers drop 5ppm (Would be awesome to actually be ableto field these guys, the models are really nice)

-Kataphrons drops 5ppm (Probably still won't be enough for people to field them really, they would have to drop another 5-10 I guess)

-Onagers go up 5ppm (Assuming we get some favorable point changes I'm guessing there's going to be some bad ones as well, the onager is one of the few good units we have so..)

What do you guys think? Assuming Admech will get point changes I feel like these units are the most probable. Would these changes shake up your lists at all?

plasma kataphrons need to be cut in half. maybe a little less but into the 50 point range.

I mean, if we got plasma kataphrons for 50ppm I'd use them without question, especially considering there's some synergy to be had with kastellans. That price drop seems overly ambitious though

PiñaColada wrote:
I mean, if we got plasma kataphrons for 50ppm I'd use them without question, especially considering there's some synergy to be had with kastellans. That price drop seems overly ambitious though

not really, interceptors got a 15ppm drop. that'd bring kataphrons down to 57

Hm. Pessimist here.

Kastellans go up. Nothing else changes.

friend of mine whose been collecting a while always raises a good point when i exclaim that something is too pricey points wise etc. Take your model and compare it to the closest equivalent space marine. They are the base level for everything.

Ruststalkers could do with being a few points cheaper, but not much. I mean they're light assault infantry essentially, we dont even have any heavy assault units.

I actually dont think breachers are that badly pointed, 47 each stock is about as much as a terminator but with better weapons, greater movement, more wounds and can fire on the move.

Destroyers on the other hand...they should have the same 3+ save for starters. and some non-cp way of improving BS. if anything breachers should have worse BS and better Ws and vice versa on destroyers. The main problem with destroyers is not necessarily their price, but their balance of high damage to survivability is way off for the points. When you pay 70 odd points base wargear you expect to get a pretty hardy unit. What we actually get are powerful guns on an above average model. And we're reluctant to field 220 points of unit that can die just as easily as one that costs 140.

Same story for fistellans. The close combat weapons are worth the points. the problem is that the model only gets its invulnerable save against shooting attacks. Which makes it a massive liability to put it in front of stuff. It can still slap down stuff, it just cant take it.

Its the same story when you start putting twin lascannons on chickens. 97 points for two lascannons when a 67 point equiavalent model is more survivable at range.

I do think we'll get points reductions, basically because I'm reasonable confident of how rushed and underthought the early release of our codex was. It was almost certainly written and finalised way before people had finished testing 8th.

You can't compare like that. GW doesn't do that. They appear to contextualize within each Codex for points, not across Codex or with Marines as any yardstick.

They have no clue. Ad mech codex is really bad. Design result everything. They need to spend time to revamp it and remake some serious things but they got their head up their @@. wont see major issues addressed soon unfortunately.

And it all started with the techpreist moved to hq slot.It was the sloppiest change ever. dogmas dont have synergy. You cant even use invu save for onager if in different dogmas nor healing. We just dont have hq options in a detachment list building edition.
Make datasmith able to be elite or hq. make healing from hq army wide. give custom options to enginseers equipment etc so we can use warlord and relics. And give reduced cost and abilities to our models default.

kataphrons zero usage.
Ryst and inf extreme cost
Techpriests enginseers both zero options zero auras extreme cost no utility. techpreist maybe better bust still tax.+++
Fistelans bad. no synergy
Transports fliers Psych anything to be able to make a plan maybe some form of defense against them. Like when we had real ARC weapons to defend vs so much armor. Lower cost on weapons of all troops. plasma snipers arc omnispex grav etc.
Return the rules for invunerable broad spectrum healing bla bla pre codex to army wide.
Make Wt 5+ regain command point and give another like guard has.Reduce cost for stratagems and make them effectively like canticles for the full duration till other turn starts like knight gems.
Or we wont see any win in higher tier.

For Pragmatism's sake as well as pessimism. Assume Admech will get worse in every regard or no change. GW has made it pretty clear they are no longer interested in supporting the faction. Every FAQ and Errata, in my opinion, support this, either with debuffs or simply ignored.

I love my admech and will still play them but I know I'm playing a dead army. Luckily, they look so cool, I don't mind playing them.

They wrote the codex early as Octovol has said and I don't think they intend to ever look at the army again until 9th edition or some other large scale shake up. And I hope Octovol is right, that we get some point deductions as we do dearly need it.

I personally feel our codex was written to clear out their overstock on Onagers, Robots, Dragoons, while the rest of the models were pretty much made below par to encourage players to play one way. And that way happens to be their worst selling models.

Looks like Cawl and other similar level HQs are going up and they mention making other option less to encourage taking over looked units so maybe Kataphrons etc will get better costed, I hope so.
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/11/22/get-ready-for-chapter-approved-matched-play-updates-nov-22gw-homepage-post-3/

Agamembar wrote:
Looks like Cawl and other similar level HQs are going up and they mention making other option less to encourage taking over looked units so maybe Kataphrons etc will get better costed, I hope so.
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/11/22/get-ready-for-chapter-approved-matched-play-updates-nov-22gw-homepage-post-3/

....what the eff?! Cawl was overpriced to begin with. He isn't nearly tanky enough and his re-roll bubble isn't that big a deal. Jeez, GW. He should be 200pt, not more than 250!

If Kataphrons and many other of our units don't drop in points majorly, this faction is really just done, since we already struggle to get what we need. If Cawl goes up, what can we afford to cut?

Yeah, Cawl is nothing but an overpriced reroll bubble. Real shame to go up, looks like they really want Stygies to be the only viable build.

Although now it gives me an excuse to sell my Cawl. I know someone who wants him and all he does is take up space anyway.

Cawl is a must take in every AdMech list. He was nerfed. Any questions?

gendoikari87 wrote:
So if chapter approved ends up being bad for us... do we have to use it in tournaments or can we opt not to?

Really? Could say the same about the codex change to conscripts.

Seriously, that's such a childish attitude to have.

Well have low hopes for Chapter Approved now.

 Formosa wrote:
been reading this thread so i can get an understanding of how to beat these guys, they always seem to be my nemesis :/

So does anyone have any tips for a Dark Angels player on what to target etc.

thanks

Hi, could you tell us what your opponent is mostly fielding? And I and the rest of the thread can give you better input.

Most competitive builds of Admech are centered around Cawl rerolling Big Robots (Kastelaons), smaller robots (destroyers), and Onagers. Maybe with some Dragoon support. Not uncommon to see a Dakka knight as well. This list is built around shooting everything and burning command points for mortal wounds and if best played centerboard with a maximal line of sight.

Assuming this trend here are some weakness this force has.

Admech has little to no mobility (exceptions for teleporting and infiltrating but if they use those, no Cawl). Premeasure and make sure on first turn, nothing you have is in range of his Dakkabots. This will force him to move and significantly reduce his BS. Staying out of range and using LOS blockers to advance will be key to denying his powerful guns from being useful. Cover wont help you as his phosper shots ignore it. So you MUST stay out of range and use LOS blocks. Tangent here, most people do not seem to be playing 8th edition with any LOS blocking. You must have at least 2 large LOS blockers on the board and ideally 3 with several smaller ones.

To kill the Robots, treat them as any other MC. Lazcannons are idea Autocannons are pretty good too. They have T6 and 6W and a 3+/5++ or a 2+/4++ however if they have the the latter their shooting is significatly reduced due to only firing half the amount of shots in favor of the increased save. Four Lazcannons should ensure the destruction of 1 a turn (dice gods can be fickle). Lazcannons outrange them and should easily wound them and take them straight to their invul. A dev squad should handle them nicely. Or if you want mobility and Land raider or Pred won't feel to threatened from Dakkabots as their high toughness/save and wounds will make them poor targets for Dakkabots as they love to shoot infantry.

Destroyers are significantly easier to kill. They dish out lots of firepowers but have a relatively weak chassis. Anything is pretty good at killing them due ot thier mediocre save. Boltguns will do a decent job but you'll need some numbers as they have T5 and 3Ws. Heavy bolters will probably due fine and plasma will wreck them especially overcharged for the 2 dmg each. If you cant range them with artillary or heavy weapons, a drop pod with 4 hvy bolters and some meat shields should wipe out a squad of them. (give them auspex to deny their cover canticle to put them at a 5+ armor save). You might be tempted to not fire missle launchers or Laz cannons (or other high yeild weapons) at them but do it anyways. These units are so expensive that even just killing one does huge damage to the Admech player. Your single marine with a Lazcannon is about 35pts, if he kills one Destroyer he has killed a 75pts model. So do it.

Onagers. These guys are tough and powerful, easily the best unit in the codex. Treat them like Leman Russes with a 5++. Best way to kill them is in melee. teleport a terminator squad with thunderhammers, or chain fists (for that sweet extra damage) and charge em. They will die, and if they fall back they cannot shoot. Either way its a win win for you. You can shoot them to death, but that 5++ reroll 1 and 3+/2+ with canticles can make them difficult to blow up from afar. And due to the Onagers extremely good death beam, you'll be hard pressed to win a fair shoot out, unless you have better numbers or target saturation. Again, Lazcannon are the way to go if you want to shoot them. These might be your #1 target priority based on what weapons he has. Chances are they'll be equipped with Nuetronl laser for its super high S and AP-4 with min damage of 3-6. Laz Preds wont want to go toe to toe unless you get first volly. Devs are better here as his massive death beam can only kill one marine per shot. Making it huge overkill (remember to take 10 man dev squads! Those meatbags are worth it!). I highly recommend Melee to kill them.

Cawl: dont bother shooting him with small arms fire. Go big. Missle, Laz, plasma all with hurt him. He has a pathetic 5++ meaning anything of worth will kill him just fine. Only problem is, he is a character its hard to shoot him. Melee him with power fists and watch him die with ease.

Fortifications. Putting Dev squads in a bunker or Bastion will effectively make most of his infantry shooting (destroyers and Dakka bots) have no good targets. Forcing his Onagers to shoot your bunkers instead of your tanks and artillery. Denying his target priority will disrupt his entire army and turns. His Onagers cant shoot your tanks, because they need to shoot the bunkers, he needs to shoot the bunkers because your devs are in there and his dakkabots won't hurt the bunker, which means your tanks can shoot his Dakkabots with impunity and your bunkers should easily hold out 2 turns from his artillery shots.

Admech have no psykers. Make use of your librarians and smite. Admech have invul saves galore but little to no FNP (with one exception but no one plays Gracia but me), so your smite will simply delete if it goes off, which it should since admech cannot deny you at all unless they spend their precious command points, which they wont, cause they need it for dakkabot mars mortal wound spam.

If I was fighting this list as a DA player. I'd take two bastions and load em up with Laz Devs maybe 3 squads two bunkers with maybe all Lazcannons or missle (I prefer Laz). Put some extra dakka ontop Quad cannon and give them shield generators. T10 20Ws 3+/5++ bunker with shittons of firepower. It'll be expensive point wise but it will ruin your opponents entire strategy. Take two or 3 Tactical squads with a Lazcannon and maybe no other upgrade and have them backfield hold (staying out of range or forcing your opponent to move towards them to shoot proper). Their Obj Secured and Laz cannon will make them useful throughout the whole game and probably not even targeted due to the bastions. Laz Pred would be excellent but you'll need at least 2 ideally 3. If you don't get first turn he's sure to blow up one from his Onagers maybe even two. You can build a list without them though as your bunkers might suffice (but lack the mobility of your preds). Land speeders with missiles, can easily outmaneuver and outrange most of the Admech (except those Onagers, you might be seeing a pattern here; kill them first), the High S, decent AP and range will make them useful throughout the whole game. Terminators, those awesome knights with the stomr shields and maces could probably do some work. There is nothing they won't kill in melee, but you'll have to suppor them as they will get focused fired on. I'd take maybe two drop pods, a heavy bolter team and maybe a sternguard squad with combiplasma or melta or a command squad. Take a Captain, Lietent, Ancient, Apothcary and maybe even two librarians along for the ride. This will make your devs, meathshields and sternguard super effective with buffs. Your libariarns cas smite to do some auto wounds and cast Null Zone to stripe the Onagars or Robots of their invuls. Rerolls to hit and wound, reviving fallen, buffing with powers and smiting should put a huge hole in thier force once the heavy bolters and sternguard open up. (meltabombs are not a bad choice either!)

Hope this assuming overview helps. lemme know what the exact list your playing against and what you can field and I can help you better. I play lots of Marines and Admech so I know both codexs by heart.

Also if you and your buddy aren't playing missions. Start doing so. 8th is so boring if your just doing kill points. Try out the other missions, they are actually quite fun and dramtically change the way you play and list build!

Looks like GW has no interest in selling admech

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Cawl is a must take in every AdMech list. He was nerfed. Any questions?

So improve the TPD? Maybe give us some more unique characters? Maybe don't have garbage FW traits, warlord traits, and relics?

Your take is a bad take.

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Cawl is a must take in every AdMech list. He was nerfed. Any questions?

So improve the TPD? Maybe give us some more unique characters? Maybe don't have garbage FW traits, warlord traits, and relics?

Your take is a bad take.

Ah yes. Because here is the quote where they said they didn't make Dominus better...
Uhm
Uhm
Oh wait that does not exist(not saying it WILL happen). Cawl WAS a problem. He had to be nerfed. However the rest of the army should be buffed to compensate as they are not doing well WITH the "broken HQ".
Also it might be +20 pts. We don't know.

Why is the kneejerk reaction: omg Cawl costs 400 pts now?

 rvd1ofakind wrote:

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Cawl is a must take in every AdMech list. He was nerfed. Any questions?

So improve the TPD? Maybe give us some more unique characters? Maybe don't have garbage FW traits, warlord traits, and relics?

Your take is a bad take.

Ah yes. Because here is the quote where they said they didn't make Dominus better...
Uhm
Uhm
Oh wait that does not exist(not saying it WILL happen). Cawl WAS a problem. He had to be nerfed. However the rest of the army should be buffed to compensate as they are not doing well WITH the "broken HQ".
Also it might be +20 pts. We don't know.

Why is the kneejerk reaction: omg Cawl costs 400 pts now?

Another bad take.

Not a single person said he cost 400pt. Given his 250pt right now is pretty overpriced, anything beyond is egregious. Even 20pt is 20pt too many when he should really be about 200-225.

He was not a problem really - he isn't a CC monster, he can't take a lot of punishment, and really only offers a re-roll bubble and double canticles as reasonable perks. The problem is that he is a singular character HQ among our overall crap HQ selection. That GW chose to raise Cawl's points says a lot and leads me to believe the TPD won't get a fix.

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Cawl is a must take in every AdMech list. He was nerfed. Any questions?

So improve the TPD? Maybe give us some more unique characters? Maybe don't have garbage FW traits, warlord traits, and relics?

Your take is a bad take.

Ah yes. Because here is the quote where they said they didn't make Dominus better...
Uhm
Uhm
Oh wait that does not exist(not saying it WILL happen). Cawl WAS a problem. He had to be nerfed. However the rest of the army should be buffed to compensate as they are not doing well WITH the "broken HQ".
Also it might be +20 pts. We don't know.

Why is the kneejerk reaction: omg Cawl costs 400 pts now?

Another bad take.

Not a single person said he cost 400pt. Given his 250pt right now is pretty overpriced, anything beyond is egregious. Even 20pt is 20pt too many when he should really be about 200-225.

He was not a problem really - he isn't a CC monster, he can't take a lot of punishment, and really only offers a re-roll bubble and double canticles as reasonable perks. The problem is that he is a singular character HQ among our overall crap HQ selection. That GW chose to raise Cawl's points says a lot and leads me to believe the TPD won't get a fix.

I have to agree. Cawl is appropriately costed currently. I think the Dev team missed the point (debatable since we don't know the full changes) the reason why Cawl was an auto take is because the TPD is laughably overcosted and his aura is "meh" at best meaning, most people (who plays mars, because they made mars have arguably the best faction benefit) play Cawl since he is only a few point more the an TPD and is tremendously better. To raise Cawls cost makes no sense currently (maybe it will once we read the full changes). All they really needed to do was make the TPD with his full Wargear cost 90 pts. Or they could do the smart thing and keep his point currently but increase his buffs or alter his abilities: TPD can repair two models a turn instead of the usual one. TPD Aura add +1 BS to all Admech and rerolls 1s to all Skitarri. Bam. Worth his points and maybe even Mars players might take one.

Why in the world they picked on Admech HQs who have the worst in the game (points wise) is very unnerving to me. Maybe I was wrong when I said I think they will only make Admech worse, maybe they actually did change them up dramtically. And maybe... Just maybe... It won't be for the worse. (I doubt it.)