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I would definitely use both flavours of kataphron and sicarian if they were cheaper.

What they do is not the problem for me, it's how much it costs to do it and how easily/likely they are to die for those points.

Kataphrons are glass cannons with a heavy infantry price point. Sicarians are hit-volume melee infantry at a melee-specialist price point. Thats my problem with them.

Both flavours of priests are well-priced for what they do. The only reason we dont take them is because we dont have a reliable delivery method and they move at a regular pace so they end up virtually depleted by the time they get to do anything.

Perhaps a few ppm cheaper on our melee units, due to lack of delivery method, and I would glady run corpuscarii up the field and take the colateral losses to get them in. You do not ignore 10 of them coming at you. And any time dealing with them is time not dealing with something else. If they were 11 or 12 ppm you could afford to take some collateral for a 100-110 point squad.

My biggest irk with our army atm are the function of our HQ units. They're a ranged buff bot and a non-entity heal-bot. They only buff ranged units,however they have decent enough melee ability; But they dont have any synergy with our melee units. As someone pointed out to me we have one of the very few HQ units (TPD) that is actually decent at range. Most HQs have short range pistols or melee abilities. TPD has both good range and melee (barring a sub-par 5++) and they make us pay for both. It might nice to only pay for ranged or melee gear so we can tailor it's role. Invariably you dont take any unit thats good at both range and melee. You take one thats excellent at range or excellent at melee. You want them to have specialist roles. TPD is a jack of all trades, master of none (except being one of the best repairers in the game)

Uh no. tailoring the TPD means getting rid of the omnissian axe, and that's downright heresy for a techpreist. Maybe the addition of a skitarii Alpha that can take an arquebus

Yeah I can only see Chapter Approved as a straight nerf. GW has thus far indicated they balance within the Codex, not codex to codex. This means that obvious choices within a codex will get nerfed to crap without consideration of overall codex performance. Look for phosphor robots to get big point increases since they are so obviously better than everything else. Everything so far has been GW toning down big power combos and obvious choices.

And I would have no issue if we had an army models and any other options!!!

GW was actually struggling in the past because of its outdated business practices. We've come far in roughly ten years. Gone are the days of ordering everything by catalog. We have a website, social media, etc. (Back then, I was mostly a watcher, not a player.)

I don't think this company can continue the sort of behavior of the past. They know it's not good for their bottom line, and their community team will tell them what players are thinking.

Anyhow, if I were designing for Warhammer (my profession is game design), my focus would be on nerfing broken stuff and buffing underpowered stuff for now, not trying to achieve a sweeping balance. Games like this have too many complex interactions for that. Balancing intra-codex would make sense, but it would be done so with an eye toward the entire metagame. Hence why I doubt our codex will get a balance change until more powerful codexes have been levelled out.

 Yoda79 wrote:
And I would have no issue if we had an army models and any other options!!!

The problem will be that admech will be non-viable above 1000 points in a 2000 point army by the time the nerfs go through. Every T3 model in the skitarii range is flatly too costly as is and there is no way they can bring the cost of skitarii troops down low enough to make them viable in the face of heavy bolters and/or assault cannons. 1 twin assault cannon kills 50-80 points of T3 admech models a turn and it costs something like 35 points after the nerfs. If an assault cannon razorback ends up costing 90 points ... it still kills the same 50-80 points of admech troops a turn and 120 points of admech troops cannot possibility kill the razorback before it shoots (18" range on 6" movement versus 24" range on ~12" movement). The armies with viable troops sections either have (1) transports or (2) troops that cost 3-4 points or (3) troops with 4++. Chapter approved point fixes (which will be nerfs on Cawl and Phosphorbots) will not bring T3 models that cost 8 points and have no transports into viability.

EDIT: here is what it would take for skitarii to be viable if the points costs stayed relatively the same:

(1) adeptus mechanicus rhinos/razorbacks
(2) an HQ option for a skitarii Prime that provided some benefit to skitari infantry (enginseer does nothing for skitarii foot)

Without these things the entire skitarii model range is a joke. If your opponent brings vehicles that have high volume of fire weaponry, then you just lose.

Its not so much "GW hates us! Wahhhh"

Its more that GW is fairly apathetic about our army after the initial run, cause we're not Space marines, nor the chaosy flavor or space marines

Even though as I recall, the year it released, the Ad mech line was the biggest sellers of the year for GW, proving the market is there if they just give us more stuff, or even access to FW stuff in 40K.

Rather them hate us, than apathetic, hate still provides attention to the line

I'm very interested to see what they do with the phosphor bots. I don't think they need to be increased in points, as they are so static if you use them with binharic override, otherwise you're waiting a turn plus paying for a datasmith. I can see the powerfist version getting a significant decrease though. As I said before what I wanna see is the Kataphrons and sicarian units get a buff. I think everything else is actually okay.

I don't agree that our codex isn't balanced compared to other factions. Sure guard are the obvious counterpoint, but we've been seeing gw actively try to tone down that book. I've had great success with my list at a bunch of local events, and I feel this book can go toe to toe with most other books. I played a crazy optimized guard list at my last event. Walking up to the table I felt I was gonna get my ass handed to me based on what I'd read online. Actually ended up being a great game that I managed to squeak out a win! At the minimum codex to codex balance has been the best it's ever been (I am also a dark eldar player, and good lord they were atrocious in 7th).

My list relies on vanguard greyfax + 2 eversors and 2 culexus assassins (the rest is spearhead mars cawl + kastellans + onagers, stygies battalion enginseer + rangers with arquebuses, 5 Dragoons). The assassins are in an interesting place now, as the character rule changes will mean the worst abuses with the culexus will no longer be a thing. If they also go up in points that's gonna be a big deal for my list.

linds14sr20det wrote:

My list relies on vanguard greyfax + 2 eversors and 2 culexus assassins (the rest is spearhead mars cawl + kastellans + onagers, stygies battalion enginseer + rangers with arquebuses, 5 Dragoons). The assassins are in an interesting place now, as the character rule changes will mean the worst abuses with the culexus will no longer be a thing. If they also go up in points that's gonna be a big deal for my list.

Wait, did they finally fix character spam? I must have missed that.

i'd still seriously like a hard answer from GW as to why they won't fething give mechanicus transports. They don't even have to make new models just throw the chimera/Rhino into the dex. Boom. More sales more money for GW. Imagine Vanguard running 2x5 squads with 2x plasma each, Imagine how much more viable the other forgeworlds become.

Metallica basically acts like tallarn for Admech, then ryza, omg imagine ryza with priests in chimera.

You just dont get it. There are no changes.There is nothing new.They only increase decrease points. Unfortunately this is exactly the behavior that brought ad mech in this place to begin with. No design up points don points sell much use much up points not used enough down points .Where the army has nothing to work with.Its Broken. dogams dont work toghether from healing to invu saves or even broad spectrum. We are only army that our leadership buff cant work between dogmas.
Ad mech does not have even the basics to work with its lists. You pay for every single option you wanna have every single one

Mainly cause we dont have customisation options hq auras.No option like phychers utilize powers accordingly or buffs deepending on stratagems. you cant depend on gems since you need them for infiltration etc. You cant have buff cross dogmas. you dont gain any single option as army any. same goes for names stratagems. if you take skitarii you loose cult buffs. if you try to fix cult low bs you loose skitarii. The design will not work to make a plan. It just has either no units. cant play elites with cult priests skitarii sicarans and datasmiths wont even make a vanguard. and even if you do enginseer 52 points tax all the way. If you take a relic will buff only infantr or only skitarii. if you take troops spam you cant use the most important stratagems for bigger units. if you take bigger units you cant take enough gems to play the units or have anything else in your army cause of tax.
Yes it ca be eploited to have more gems as allies but what is the problem to add some ore units to make viable detachments? why is there a problem to have more hq? sergents like all other armies? preists to give extra melee att? any form of buff for viable plans. Any plan. techpreist giving dunestrider or giving canticle run charge or fall back shoot ANY option anything to make an army have options. Melle options or mobility where is the problem with scout and dunestrider? maybe a reroll charge something viable on a unit we dont have to pay??
if it was only cost then the "broken Robot Onagers Cawl " would have been winning all. There is a point issue sure maybe some tweaks but most armies got some. and its not 50 points the problem. ITs how your point eventually work out as a list!! Its a design problem.Not enough units hq elite buffs etc. no viable plan after Cawl and that is already measured and failed. they nerf it again ok and what will ad mech play? if the overpowered list failed? if overpowered Cawl did nothing.What exactly are we talking about 5 point on infiltrators or destroyers so what? you still got no option none.
as the game works they did a good job limiting options sure balnced no since not all armies got a fair amount of tools. simply put. Its one thing to have some op units and balance them out and another to have ONE CHAR one list and nerf it every single faq. Cawl released moved to 8th nerfed Robots again 5+ return nerfed dual shots different targets nerfed. Static dakka 6 wounds. Broken ok increased points ok what will you take for them again we gonna spam 6 onagers then what increase onagers? this is getting ridiculus. Maybe works for playtested armies marines etc. Ad mech needs design revamp mainly options more commnd points? more hq? auras? relics? unit abilities? seriously. and i dont care if they cost more as long as we can f play some strats and not scarce units as allies.

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
Its not so much "GW hates us! Wahhhh"

Its more that GW is fairly apathetic about our army after the initial run, cause we're not Space marines, nor the chaosy flavor or space marines

Even though as I recall, the year it released, the Ad mech line was the biggest sellers of the year for GW, proving the market is there if they just give us more stuff, or even access to FW stuff in 40K.

Rather them hate us, than apathetic, hate still provides attention to the line

You do realise that's most of the armies they are "apathetic" to...

ADMECH leak boys, here it is! I will comment as I read it.

https://www.instagram.com/p/Bb5U_nflpU2/

EDIT: good thing I made sure all the bits I put into my ESBatteries can be unconverted! 115 points lol. That is a little more than a basilisk at 108.
EDIT: fireraptor is -60 points, that brings it to almost viability.

EDIT: ad mech basically got +200 points in a 2000 point list.

Fulguraites - 16 points (0 cost weapon)
Breachers - 30 base [from 35] (+ 6/20 and 4/5) . arc breachers now cost 40 points a model at cheapest, down from 47, I will bring a unit
Destroyers - 30 base [formerly 35] (+ a 30/27 and 8/10) // ggrav destroyer is now 66 points a model, which is iffy. Like almost viable. Still needs MARS to hit a damned thing
Infiltrators - 16 [from 18]
Rangers - 7 [from 8]
Vanguard - 8 [from 9]
Dominus - 115 [down 10]
Enginseer - 35 [down 5]

Celestine - 200 + 25 + 25 for geminae // this was a smart nerf, no one took the geminae and at 150 points she was always flatly better than another ONager
Cawl - 240????? but doesn't include wargear? LOL THEY DIDN"T NERF SKY NOT FALLING BUY BUY BUY

WARGEAR:
Data tether 5 [from 7]
Eradication beamer 25 [from 30]
Eradication ray 10 [from 14]
Heavy arc rifle 6 [from 8]
Phosphor blast pistol 3 (down 1)
Phosphor blaster 6 [down 2]
Phos sepenta 4 [down 2]
Power fist 12 [down 8, huge]
Radium pistol 0 [down 1]
Torsion cannon 20 [down 2, still aids]

Terminus Ultra is comically viable if you can buff it at 250 points base before the lascannons.

EDIT RIP RIP RIP Astra militarum, get wreckkkkkkkked
Concripts are 4 points
Astropath is 30 ) -
Manticore is 135
Primaris psyker is 38+12 for 50
Ratlings are now 7 base
Taurox Prime is 80 base plus 20 for the gatler, like ripppppp

SUMMATION: yeah, a whole lot of BS got nerfed hard. But admech got the buff. So yeah, run admech. Run big 2000 point lists of admech.
LOL -10 points on the Cawlstar. WHCommunity team didn't read the leaks. Cawl at 240

I guess they can call it a crawl nerf since everything else got buffed?

Cawl went down 10 points lol

Mechanicus triumphant in Chapter Approved. All glory to the Omnissiah.

Oh yeah, triumphant is the right word. All the terrible cheese ass daemon stuff from FW that was ruining the game got stomped on hard. And with the Ynnarri nerf, pretty much all the terrible things admech is afraid of are now managable. MARS / STYGIES is now totally viable with all the nerfs to the obviously overpowered daemon stuff.

I'm just dissapointed because, whilst it's obviously too late to give Ruststalkers good rules, I was kinda hoping they'd at least become cheaper.

I mean, I own 15 so you can see the source of my frustration.

Happy to be shown wrong! Though I couldn't help but notice Servtiors didn't get changed (at least not in the leasks I've seen)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Or technically their servo arms need to be dropped not the servitors themselves.

Huh. Kataphrons still aren't cheap enough to be appealing. Very happy Fulgurites came back down and that Infiltrators went down. Looks like GW nerfed a lot of problems overall though, so this seems good for the game.

Glad I didn't wind up buying ESBs.

My SoCal open list went up 173 points

EDIT: destroyers are still waiting on the bunker and terrain rules in Chapter approved. If bunker went down a good amount of points, I could see bringing them since they won't insta die.

Wulfey wrote:
My SoCal open list went up 173 points

EDIT: destroyers are still waiting on the bunker and terrain rules in Chapter approved. If bunker went down a good amount of points, I could see bringing them since they won't insta die.

Bastions are expensive but worth it in my opinion. So many wounds, exceptionally high toughness and excellent visibility. And the heavy bolters only cost 8pts now!

Hmmm rangers/vanguard still cost twice as much as guardsmen and STYGIES ones are not twice as tough and don't shoot twice as hard. Hmmmm

Alright, first go at my LVO list. I think this is viable ... but somehow suckier without celestine. That nerf.

MARS spearhead
Cawl + 5xPhosphorBots + 2xNeutron + 1xIcarus

STYGIES battalion
2x Enginseer + 3x5 Rangers + 1x4 Dragoons

CADIA spearhead
Commander (5+/5+) + 3x1 Basilisks

I still think we need non-LOS shooting to stay in the game. Or we need Celestine's full 250 points with 2 girls running around the board. If ITC ends the terrible headhunter secondary mission punishment of Celestine ... then I might bring her back.

Ranger Sniper squad 5 (35) man with sniper (25) 55 for a sniper squad. Not bad.
Or a 10 man squad (70) with 3 arc rifles (12) is 82pts.
Or with 3 Plasma 42 A 5 man squad (77) or 10 for 102. I actually think those are reasonable numbers. I might... Actually take Rangers as my special weapon squads and just keep Vanguard vannilla.

FORGIVE US, OMNISSIAH FOR OUR LACK OF FAITH.

But wow. FW got nerfed too. All my Earthshakers went up 35 points. I mean, that sounds right given how strong they are, but I am surprised to see it.

I don't have the codex on me ATM but does anyone have a list of how much each model/piece of wargear dropped?

Wulfey did a nice summary above.

Wulfey wrote:

Fulguraites - 16 points (0 cost weapon)
Breachers - 30 base [from 35] (+ 6/20 and 4/5) . arc breachers now cost 40 points a model at cheapest, down from 47, I will bring a unit
Destroyers - 30 base [formerly 35] (+ a 30/27 and 8/10) // ggrav destroyer is now 66 points a model, which is iffy. Like almost viable. Still needs MARS to hit a damned thing
Infiltrators - 16 [from 18]
Rangers - 7 [from 8]
Vanguard - 8 [from 9]
Dominus - 115 [down 10]
Enginseer - 35 [down 5]

WARGEAR:
Data tether 5 [from 7]
Eradication beamer 25 [from 30]
Eradication ray 10 [from 14]
Heavy arc rifle 6 [from 8]
Phosphor blast pistol 3 (down 1)
Phosphor blaster 6 [down 2]
Phos sepenta 4 [down 2]
Power fist 12 [down 8, huge]
Radium pistol 0 [down 1]
Torsion cannon 20 [down 2, still aids]

Did Imperial Knights get any cheaper?

No GW Knights are mentioned in these spoilers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
First attempt at a list:


Question: Do you think people would let me use the Phear Crawler conversion (Quantum Cannon on Dunecrawler Legs) as a stand-in for Basilisks? I think a 130mm base is larger than a Chimera's body, so if anything, it would be a modeled disadvantage...

Thanks @Suzuteo, I don't know how I missed that.