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 Unit1126PLL wrote:
So, guys, I'd like to take a Tech-Priest Enginseer with the Autocaduceus in support of my Superheavy Tank Company, and he needs to be in a mechanicus detachment to access the Stratagems so he can use Tech-Adept to get 2 repair rolls per turn. He'd also be my Warlord, for Necromechanic, to give a superheavy tank 4-8 wounds back in one turn.

My question is: what sort of force should be built around him that's fun & interesting & engaging? I like Kataphrons but I doubt a lowly enginseer would have many with him, and the regular elite servitors are badly overpriced.

Consider either:

LUCIUS battalion (287)
2x Enginseers - 47 + 47, make 1 the WL with Necromechanic and give him the 30" teleport relic or the reroll repairs relic
2x5 rangers hiding out of LOS on an objective if possible, otherwise body escort the enginseers
1x10 vanguard with 3x plasma and 1x datatecher for possible deepstrike of +2 to hit plasma rerolling 1s if you use the shooting canticle

SYGIES battalion (202)
2x Enginseers - Necromechanic + Reroll repairs relic
3x5 rangers hiding out of LOS and using the -1 to be hit to survive, keep 1 group near the enginseers

I played a game against new Dark Angels yesterday, and I've got to say we really get trashed by every new codex release. The game was a close defeat for me (3-4), so it was balanced, but there is one thing bugging me off. Azrael gives a better reroll aura than Cawl, first, and pays less points for it (around 180 if I remember it well). He gives a reroll to ALL failed hit rolls, including Overwatch and CC, and a 4++ save to boot. Now at least they don't have an equivalent to Kastelan in ways of volume of fire, but 10 Hellblasters are scary enough when getting rerolls + plasma stratagem for +1D, so when you place more units in his bubble you have an army that puts out almost the same dakka as AdMech, but with a complete codex with fast units and Terminators, and transports to boot.

Every new codex release just hits the nail harder on the AdMech codex, so I really hope GW have a plan to even things out before I sell my army. I don't even count on Fires of Cyraxus anymore, because, budget-wise FW will empty my pockets fast. I'm also afraid that with their post-CA policy towards FW units (which all got pretty points increase) we'll have either units that are overcosted from day one, or just get nerfed one month later because some tourney players tabled everyone with them.

The changes need to be from new plastic sprues for more units (more HQs, customisable Tech-Priests, Transports mainly) and codex changes in both point values and datasheets.

I play both factions and Cawl has the better aura because you can reroll anything, not just misses before modifiers.

I played a game against new Dark Angels yesterday, and I've got to say we really get trashed by every new codex release. The game was a close defeat for me (3-4), so it was balanced, but there is one thing bugging me off. Azrael gives a better reroll aura than Cawl, first, and pays less points for it (around 180 if I remember it well). He gives a reroll to ALL failed hit rolls, including Overwatch and CC, and a 4++ save to boot. Now at least they don't have an equivalent to Kastelan in ways of volume of fire, but 10 Hellblasters are scary enough when getting rerolls + plasma stratagem for +1D, so when you place more units in his bubble you have an army that puts out almost the same dakka as AdMech, but with a complete codex with fast units and Terminators, and transports to boot.

Every new codex release just hits the nail harder on the AdMech codex, so I really hope GW have a plan to even things out before I sell my army. I don't even count on Fires of Cyraxus anymore, because, budget-wise FW will empty my pockets fast. I'm also afraid that with their post-CA policy towards FW units (which all got pretty points increase) we'll have either units that are overcosted from day one, or just get nerfed one month later because some tourney players tabled everyone with them.

Yeah Dark Angel is a tough one, especially now with the codex. I have to "infiltrate" my kataphrons destroyers and shootout my opponent's hellblasters and use my dakka bots to pew out the remaining and other mahreens. but as soon as the metal boxes move outta of the Azrael's bubble they are toast. My opponent also brought the annoying talon thing that grants -1 to hit. but I sniped it out turn 1 with neutron laser.

Fear not, admech is not that that. I tabled a couple of players with my admech.

Also infiltrate your electro-priest and make the charge and kill something to get 3++/5++, then watch ur opponent rage as a blob of blue man group prances through their line wacking their pricey tanks/infantry apart with nothing but their rave batons.

Azreal's 4++ aura no longer works on vehicles, only Infantry and Bikes.

Exactly Azrael was nerfed and I've erased dark angels prior to codex when. It was broken. We got better shooting than them and I removed his char with snipers. Onagers kills the -1 and from that point on it was a walk in the park each round.

Play your army you got enough tools to win. Then complain.

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

gendoikari87 wrote:
Yes but the question is are neutronagers better than what’s available in guard. Are dragoons better than what’s in guard? I don’t think so. And I don’t see tournaments bearing that out either. And they probably won’t until guard bodies are no longer 4ppm. Until then the ablative wounds the guard add is just an overwhelming barrier. Take the kastelan. For 10 points more you get two squads of guard with lascannons. Or just three bare squads. That’s 60 attacks at 12” and 30 wounds. .... or 120 with orders

Guard seriously should be bumped back up to 5ppm at minimum

This is getting into apples/oranges though. Neutronagers don't exactly compare to a Russ. Kastelans don't really compare to the squads. They aren't doing the same things the same ways. I think our best units are still solid choices over Guard choices. We do things they can't do. Especially Robots with the mortal wounds. We are one of the few factions that can nuke a daemon Primarch in one round. That is a big selling point for taking AdMech soup.

gendoikari87 wrote:
Maybe it’s apples and oranges, but the top winners are guard chaos daemons a few inquisition soups, and ravenguard(and ravenguard esque things)

Automatically Appended Next Post:
The core of the problem is admech is a mess. Most other armies have a strategic theme and focus. Orks are hoard cc specialist. BA are elite cc specialists, guard are the quintessential gunline, ect.

Admech is just all over the place with very little synergy. Worse it’s trying to be guard but elite guard kind of. But scions exist so....

If gw want to fix admech they need to first address that problem


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If I were at gw I’d make guard the ranged slow mobile army. Everything is bs 3+ and assault. Skitarii get assault 2 ap -1 lasgun with 2 attacks at ap -1. The advance, there’s nothing that dissaudes then from advancing. They are robots and won’t be stopped, slowed down or distracted.

Make the onagers feet power fists. Let the robots march half speed and fire twice. Instead of a 6+ invuln everything gets fnp 6+


Or better yet just let everything fire in the fight phase instead of fight

Yes. Neutron Crawlers are one of the best direct fire tanks in the Imperium. The only things that came close were Razorbacks. That being said, there are a lot of qualitative differences between say a Neutron Crawler and a BC Lemon, including range, codex synergy, movement characteristics, etc.

Yes. And actually, I would argue that Dragoons are the best melee unit in Imperium right now. With Doctrina, they punch ridiculously above their weight.

I am personally surprised that Conscripts went up to 4 without Guardsmen going up to 5. But I think 4 is the right cost.

And what do you mean we lack a focus? We are the shootiest army in the game right now. We have tons and tons of mid to high toughness vehicle-based artillery.

Dragoons best CC in the imperium? hyperbole much?

axisofentropy wrote:I play both factions and Cawl has the better aura because you can reroll anything, not just misses before modifiers.

I don't understand what you mean, why is Cawl's aura better when he just gives rerolls in the Shooting phase ? And how do modifiers intervene in this ? You reroll failed Hit rolls, modifiers just increase the chance of failing you roll, but the aura still allows you to reroll it nevertheless, so I don't understand what you mean. Azrael gives rerolls to failed hit (and why would you reroll successful hits anyways ?) at anytime in the game, be hit to shoot or in CC, it's just plain better is it not ?

fr3ddy wrote:Yeah Dark Angel is a tough one, especially now with the codex. I have to "infiltrate" my kataphrons destroyers and shootout my opponent's hellblasters and use my dakka bots to pew out the remaining and other mahreens. but as soon as the metal boxes move outta of the Azrael's bubble they are toast. My opponent also brought the annoying talon thing that grants -1 to hit. but I sniped it out turn 1 with neutron laser.

Fear not, admech is not that that. I tabled a couple of players with my admech.

Also infiltrate your electro-priest and make the charge and kill something to get 3++/5++, then watch ur opponent rage as a blob of blue man group prances through their line wacking their pricey tanks/infantry apart with nothing but their rave batons.

Hmm I did infiltrate 5 Electro-Priests and 5 Ruststalkers, but he got first turn and went on to kill them. The Ruststalkers held up two turns but didn't do anything. Using Infiltrate is really dependent on the configuration of the terrain and the enemy's deployment, it's quite tricky to use.

Yoda79 wrote:Exactly Azrael was nerfed and I've erased dark angels prior to codex when. It was broken. We got better shooting than them and I removed his char with snipers. Onagers kills the -1 and from that point on it was a walk in the park each round.

Play your army you got enough tools to win. Then complain.

Oh I almost tabled him, he still had 4 Hellblasters, Azrael and 3 Devastators, but won on objective at the last turn (4-3). But he hid Azrael all game so my snipers just shot at Scouts and the Bastion.

The thing is, AdMech is near unplayable as a mobile offensive army with nice CC except with either a load of Dragoons or 20 Fulgurites, and they are EASILY shot down, don't be fooled, they still have to kill something to grab their 3++. I'm not interested at playing a static gunline, because then I lose on objectives, because nothing remotely mobile survives the whole game to cross the board, kill what is hidden and grab the objective.

I should buy Maelstrom cards to see if that's better.

Wulfey wrote:

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

Wulfey wrote:

MARS
Cawl + 5 Dakkabots + 3 Neutrons + 4x1 Dragoons

CADIA
2xCompCom + 3x10 guards + 1x3 Basilisks (this list can be 12 drops)

There is the competitive AdMech list post-CA.

Yeah, I mean, I have the models and it is a very straightforwards list. No shenanigans. Either you can crush my lines and eat my robots, or my robots blow you off the table. The big debate is whether to run the dragoons as STYGIES in a third detachment (I think this is yes but I hate the bookkeeping and I don't want to repaint my models), and when I should be spending a CP to get Kurov's aquila on the second commander. I think the answer is if my opponent has more than 6CP.

Why are you spending CP for Kurov's? That seems pretty mandatory. We are a CP starved faction since we make up for all of our deficiencies with Strategems. Also, no need to repaint! Just paint up a token you can stick on the base with the Forge World specific emblem on it. That way you can switch with the meta and not be stuck (which is what I have to do because.... Metalica).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

gendoikari87 wrote:
Dragoons best CC in the imperium? hyperbole much?

I think that is contextual. Cost + Mobility + Durability + Strategems. When you look at the whole package, it is really pretty ridiculous. I would be loathe to say "best". but it is certainly up there.

 Aaranis wrote:

axisofentropy wrote:I play both factions and Cawl has the better aura because you can reroll anything, not just misses before modifiers.

I don't understand what you mean, why is Cawl's aura better when he just gives rerolls in the Shooting phase ? And how do modifiers intervene in this ? You reroll failed Hit rolls, modifiers just increase the chance of failing you roll, but the aura still allows you to reroll it nevertheless, so I don't understand what you mean. Azrael gives rerolls to failed hit (and why would you reroll successful hits anyways ?) at anytime in the game, be hit to shoot or in CC, it's just plain better is it not ?

Because modifiers are applied after re-rolls.

If you have BS 3 and shoot a target that is -1 to hit, you do not get to re-roll the 3s because they are not failed rolls before modifiers. Cawl on the other hand allows you to re-roll those 3s. And you would want to re-roll hits if you are banking on 6s for mortals or other such abilities.

Octovol wrote:

 Aaranis wrote:

axisofentropy wrote:I play both factions and Cawl has the better aura because you can reroll anything, not just misses before modifiers.

I don't understand what you mean, why is Cawl's aura better when he just gives rerolls in the Shooting phase ? And how do modifiers intervene in this ? You reroll failed Hit rolls, modifiers just increase the chance of failing you roll, but the aura still allows you to reroll it nevertheless, so I don't understand what you mean. Azrael gives rerolls to failed hit (and why would you reroll successful hits anyways ?) at anytime in the game, be hit to shoot or in CC, it's just plain better is it not ?

Because modifiers are applied after re-rolls.

If you have BS 3 and shoot a target that is -1 to hit, you do not get to re-roll the 3s because they are not failed rolls before modifiers. Cawl on the other hand allows you to re-roll those 3s. And you would want to re-roll hits if you are banking on 6s for mortals or other such abilities.

Bingo. Despite 8th being out a fair amount of time, I still see people doing re-rolls wrong. This is a huge benefit for us that I feel is overlooked a lot. The re-roll to-hit aura is much less flexible than our re-rolls in the shooting phase, as Octovol demonstrated. Such a major perk and a big reason to run Cawl over a TPD. Especially now that every single army is packing some means to negatively modify hits rolls.

I’d call dragoons middling at best as far as imperium cc units go, especially after the blood angels drop. Context is key but in cc there are these things called power fists and they love sub t8 multi wound models. Str 8 is nice but it needs paired with ap -3 to be a real tank killer. 3 attacks from a70 point model is kinda lackluster even at str 8 with exploding 6s.

Dragoons really rely on that +2 to hit strategem and it’s 2cp

gendoikari87 wrote:
I’d call dragoons middling at best as far as imperium cc units go, especially after the blood angels drop. Context is key but in cc there are these things called power fists and they love sub t8 multi wound models. Str 8 is nice but it needs paired with ap -3 to be a real tank killer. 3 attacks from a70 point model is kinda lackluster even at str 8 with exploding 6s.

Dragoons really rely on that +2 to hit strategem and it’s 2cp

CDI is 1CP unless I missed an update.

And four of them tossing around 24 attacks is pretty gross. They wound on 3's against most stuff or 4's on T8 and while AP -1 isn't crazy, it is 2 damage a pop. Every failed save is painful. Against a lot of tanks that is a 4+ save against about 16 wound rolls, which translates to 16 damage after saves. That is enough to nuke most any Rhino chassis tanks and Dreadnoughts, which is the goal.

I wouldn't throw them at other dedicated combat units with things like power fists. You don't have to measure a CC units abilities in combat against other CC targets, but against their preferred targets. In this instance, our awesome melee unit is really a tank hunter unit. They shine there and at taking out GEQ units or low save MEQ.

I'm curious - why do you include Fulgurites in the discussion of good melee units and exclude Sicarian Infiltrators with flechettes and goads? They don't require CP to alternative-deploy, whack six GEQ with their shooting attack, and then if they get to melee whack another GEQ squad without expending any CP.

The standard setup I see for GEQ screens these days seems to be the infantry squad with 1 lascannon - both their shooting and their unbuffed melee attack does an average of 6.5-7 wounds to a squad like that, which then (again, on "average" but an average of a single D6 roll so..yeah...) should usually kill the last couple models through morale.

70 points for each GEQ squad would be 140 points total - would seem to be not too shabby for a 110 point unit? Not to mention they have great synergy with mars if you take them out to a full 10-man squad. Show up, wrath of mars, drop 6 mortal wounds on something you want dead. Not quite a squad of dakkabots, but doesn't have to wait til turn 2, and costs less than 1.5 robots.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I know my list includes the goondozer, because those models are beautiful disasters and I've always loved them and you bet your ass I'm going to field the biggest unit I can get, but I also include a squad of Infiltrators and a squad of jazz hands priests with Lucius (which are more of a "charge because you might as well" unit, but still often get to combat)

The core of my list is still a bit of a gunline, but over half the actual points are on more flexible close range/melee units with some mobility and I've had no problems taking on more competitive lists.

 Valentine009 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
So, guys, I'd like to take a Tech-Priest Enginseer with the Autocaduceus in support of my Superheavy Tank Company, and he needs to be in a mechanicus detachment to access the Stratagems so he can use Tech-Adept to get 2 repair rolls per turn. He'd also be my Warlord, for Necromechanic, to give a superheavy tank 4-8 wounds back in one turn.

My question is: what sort of force should be built around him that's fun & interesting & engaging? I like Kataphrons but I doubt a lowly enginseer would have many with him, and the regular elite servitors are badly overpriced.

You will want 2 troop units so you can put them in a patrol. I think you usually have around 500 pts to work with right? I would do a 5 man squad of rangers with 2 TAs, and a 3 man kataphron squad with grav / flamers, plasma is better with rerolls. A 10 man squad of rangers might not be bad for screening as the enginseer is very fragile.

If Peltasts ever make a return and get thier shrouding super heavy ability they will prob be an awesome choice as well.

Could you do a BN? Or do you think that'd be too expensive?

If I just do a Patrol I need 1 troop is all.

The only unit in the imperium that competes with a 4x1 dragoons (272) are 6 stacks of Bullgryns with Priest backup (252+35).

A 4 stack of dragoons lands ~22 hits [str8,-1,2dam] on average with the strategem [5.5 x 4].

A 6 stack of Bullgryns lands ~21 hits [str7,-1,2dam] on average on the charge (2/3 of 34?).

Only roboute guilliman can do a comparable number of wounds on a swing, but his attacks are fewer in number and higher in quality [not really a good thing if the target as invul saves]. An imperial knight with the WLT for 5 attacks can do about 1/2-2/3 the damage of a dragoon stack.

Wait, okay, the real competitor are 10 stacks of sanguinary guard. They actually do real damage now, but they require like 270 points of support characters and cost 350 for the 10 stack, and they all die after their charge if your opponent has good AP weapons.

Octovol wrote:

 Aaranis wrote:

axisofentropy wrote:I play both factions and Cawl has the better aura because you can reroll anything, not just misses before modifiers.

I don't understand what you mean, why is Cawl's aura better when he just gives rerolls in the Shooting phase ? And how do modifiers intervene in this ? You reroll failed Hit rolls, modifiers just increase the chance of failing you roll, but the aura still allows you to reroll it nevertheless, so I don't understand what you mean. Azrael gives rerolls to failed hit (and why would you reroll successful hits anyways ?) at anytime in the game, be hit to shoot or in CC, it's just plain better is it not ?

Because modifiers are applied after re-rolls.

If you have BS 3 and shoot a target that is -1 to hit, you do not get to re-roll the 3s because they are not failed rolls before modifiers. Cawl on the other hand allows you to re-roll those 3s. And you would want to re-roll hits if you are banking on 6s for mortals or other such abilities.

OMG. Somehow I never understood it that way, just because it is unusually complicated in an edition where simplicity is prevalent in terms of rules (with the few exceptions and GW's hazardous phrasing considered, of course). Even more amazing is that I knew the rule and used it positively when rerolling for plasma overheat, but never for hitting with modifiers, because I simply never got to reroll ALL hits, I never played Cawl more than a couple of times.

Thanks for enlightening me However I still firmly believe Azraël got the best aura, simply because of the reroll in Overwatch. His Hellblasters killed more of my guys in Overwatch than by shooting me in his phase. And rerolls in the Fight phase are no joke neither. Also, he's waaaaay easier to hide, he just hid it in a ruin and my snipers couldn't target him once.

I don't understand what it the problem really.

You want to play competitive and you play Rustalkers??
Don't cry afterwards. Same goes for infiltrators why ?? On!y if you use solo Mars.

What is the real quality you can depend in ad mech vs other armies.

Mars.
Cawl rerolls all hits not only misses only in shooting but Robots overwatch with double shots.
That is not just one of the best auras on the game it's the best aura vs fliers -1 to hit defence and extremely broken with current meta.
Making ad mech one of the best shooting armies not because you can't find a bs3+ rerollable you can even find it with reroll also wound but you won't find anything better vs -1 to hit targets than Cawl wh40k wide. Placing you popably with neutron laser just below Titan shooting. Won't find a neutron gun able to hit like this and str 10 and -4 and 3-6 leaving lasc way back.

Dragoons. Fast -1 or -2 68 points bla bla. The real gem of this unit as with Cawl and vs other armies their versatile role.
They can defend they can be a fast obj grabber or they can assault. 1cp for 4+ explodes is broken good. Str 8 -1 2d is one of the best for it's cost. And it can also use 2d6 advance shoot for late game balltistrii etc.

And none prohibits you to make a Cawl list with Onagers and play a moving army. Only robots are stationary . Take grav take plasma take onagers 140 super gun able to hit even -1 with rerolls move shoot gem to hit top tier even damged healing min damage and with 6 stubber shots 5+ invu reroll 1s wtf.


So much info in this threat. 5 man priest?? No need to 10 then you LL see the real utility. Again staff priests with so much invu and fnp able to assault and counter.

That said if you really want to play ad mech think versatile.leave the 4 robots (max 4 I think) to guard their 36 area and play a moving army. But play serious you can get a stygies detachment and have in there all you need for 70% of the maps. Most armies don't even have that. You can decide to play Dragoons office or screener same for priests you can invest in Robots or you can make a superb Cawl onager neutron icarus spamm list. Durable moving. You can even make a knight elitish list to play first with dominus healing and knights roaming.

It's good enough as we see with other armies. All got a broken combo and they play it competitive then balance seems good enough. The game will get more as we move along.
Forge world more units bl bla. Atm there are enough to play if you play it properly. If we take anything on top of Robots Cawl onages Dragoons it will be op. Some utility sure some new units sure. Some tactical options like go horde list fliers etc sure. But I don't accept more crying? The point reduction even if I don't want to to admit it seems ok so far to play games! Not superb but close to other lists.

I want changes as you all do but I can't ask broken things. If you play only our good units . Meaning high vehicle count low troops range pew pew we got a strong army. Yes it can get locked in combat but that's what you need to work out. To begin with I stressed the matter of taking dominus.
You can split your army with a dominus . Keeping bs4+ with Cawl and take bs3+ with dominus. That alone gives you a chance to not get locked.

Same goes for testing more fun lists or knights.

If you come cry while try to win with 5 man groups general unit count in d mech then you are clueless . We benefit largely from big units even troops atm. And focusing on. Plan cause we can change dogmas and strategies with the some units. That said you need to utilise properly the units their number

 Yoda79 wrote:
I don't understand what it the problem really.

Spoiler:

You want to play competitive and you play Rustalkers??
Don't cry afterwards. Same goes for infiltrators why ?? On!y if you use solo Mars.

What is the real quality you can depend in ad mech vs other armies.

Mars.
Cawl rerolls all hits not only misses only in shooting but Robots overwatch with double shots.
That is not just one of the best auras on the game it's the best aura vs fliers -1 to hit defence and extremely broken with current meta.
Making ad mech one of the best shooting armies not because you can't find a bs3+ rerollable you can even find it with reroll also wound but you won't find anything better vs -1 to hit targets than Cawl wh40k wide. Placing you popably with neutron laser just below Titan shooting. Won't find a neutron gun able to hit like this and str 10 and -4 and 3-6 leaving lasc way back.

Dragoons. Fast -1 or -2 68 points bla bla. The real gem of this unit as with Cawl and vs other armies their versatile role.
They can defend they can be a fast obj grabber or they can assault. 1cp for 4+ explodes is broken good. Str 8 -1 2d is one of the best for it's cost. And it can also use 2d6 advance shoot for late game balltistrii etc.

And none prohibits you to make a Cawl list with Onagers and play a moving army. Only robots are stationary . Take grav take plasma take onagers 140 super gun able to hit even -1 with rerolls move shoot gem to hit top tier even damged healing min damage and with 6 stubber shots 5+ invu reroll 1s wtf.


So much info in this threat. 5 man priest?? No need to 10 then you LL see the real utility. Again staff priests with so much invu and fnp able to assault and counter.

That said if you really want to play ad mech think versatile.leave the 4 robots (max 4 I think) to guard their 36 area and play a moving army. But play serious you can get a stygies detachment and have in there all you need for 70% of the maps. Most armies don't even have that. You can decide to play Dragoons office or screener same for priests you can invest in Robots or you can make a superb Cawl onager neutron icarus spamm list. Durable moving. You can even make a knight elitish list to play first with dominus healing and knights roaming.

It's good enough as we see with other armies. All got a broken combo and they play it competitive then balance seems good enough. The game will get more as we move along.
Forge world more units bl bla. Atm there are enough to play if you play it properly. If we take anything on top of Robots Cawl onages Dragoons it will be op. Some utility sure some new units sure. Some tactical options like go horde list fliers etc sure. But I don't accept more crying? The point reduction even if I don't want to to admit it seems ok so far to play games! Not superb but close to other lists.

I want changes as you all do but I can't ask broken things. If you play only our good units . Meaning high vehicle count low troops range pew pew we got a strong army. Yes it can get locked in combat but that's what you need to work out. To begin with I stressed the matter of taking dominus.
You can split your army with a dominus . Keeping bs4+ with Cawl and take bs3+ with dominus. That alone gives you a chance to not get locked.

Same goes for testing more fun lists or knights.

If you come cry while try to win with 5 man groups general unit count in d mech then you are clueless . We benefit largely from big units even troops atm. And focusing on. Plan cause we can change dogmas and strategies with the some units. That said you need to utilise properly the units their number

Well for one I don't play competitively tournament level or fluff-ripping level, just serious games against strong but fluffy lists. I'll never hit the tournament scene because I find it repulsive to my playstyle and how I see the game, however I don't hold it against anyone who loves tourneys and optimisation, good for them.

I only own 5 Fulgurites, I know well enough they're useless unless taken in groups of 15+, I don't usually play them because I think they're hideous, have no mobility and are a pain to paint well, I won't buy any more so they're kinda a dead unit to me. Ruststalkers however I had really decent successes with them enough times to justify keeping them in my lists, just not with Infiltrate because it usually leave them all alone with no support so they get gunned down or other shenanigans.

Cawl's aura doesn't work in Overwatch, Overwatch is not "your shooting phase", it's a shooting phase, during the opponent's charge phase, there's the catch.

If I play AdMech it's to play pure AdMech, because it is supposedly damned well supposed to work like that, it was fine in 7th, it should still be now.

I'm not asking for broken changes if that's what you meant (I'm sorry but I sometimes have difficulties understanding the way you write), just that a fluff player can play his army the way he likes without it being a huge handicap because the design team balanced Imperium as a whole and not as individual factions. Give me Scout back, a transport, more aura characters (with at least a few different auras) and I'll already be really happy. I don't have to win against optimised lists with this, I just want to be able to have a fun two-sided game with an army of similar balance and stop having to remove my 8 Vanguards unit because a squad of 10 Intercessors looked at it and opened fire once.

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

Why are you spending CP for Kurov's? That seems pretty mandatory. We are a CP starved faction since we make up for all of our deficiencies with Strategems. Also, no need to repaint! Just paint up a token you can stick on the base with the Forge World specific emblem on it. That way you can switch with the meta and not be stuck (which is what I have to do because.... Metalica).
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Relic of lost cadia is pretty huge. It is basically an auto-win if you run against chaos and the reroll 1s to wound against non-chaos actually makes it one of the best relics, even if only for a turn. If you play the abuse interpretation, then you can keep spamming it every turn. Kurov's is not as good as the relic if your opponent has less than 6 CP as you can't spend 1 CP can get as many rerolls as relic of lost cadia is going to get you in even 1 round of shooting.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Valentine009 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
So, guys, I'd like to take a Tech-Priest Enginseer with the Autocaduceus in support of my Superheavy Tank Company, and he needs to be in a mechanicus detachment to access the Stratagems so he can use Tech-Adept to get 2 repair rolls per turn. He'd also be my Warlord, for Necromechanic, to give a superheavy tank 4-8 wounds back in one turn.

My question is: what sort of force should be built around him that's fun & interesting & engaging? I like Kataphrons but I doubt a lowly enginseer would have many with him, and the regular elite servitors are badly overpriced.

You will want 2 troop units so you can put them in a patrol. I think you usually have around 500 pts to work with right? I would do a 5 man squad of rangers with 2 TAs, and a 3 man kataphron squad with grav / flamers, plasma is better with rerolls. A 10 man squad of rangers might not be bad for screening as the enginseer is very fragile.

If Peltasts ever make a return and get thier shrouding super heavy ability they will prob be an awesome choice as well.

Could you do a BN? Or do you think that'd be too expensive?

If I just do a Patrol I need 1 troop is all.

What's a BN?

gendoikari87 wrote:
I’d call dragoons middling at best as far as imperium cc units go, especially after the blood angels drop. Context is key but in cc there are these things called power fists and they love sub t8 multi wound models. Str 8 is nice but it needs paired with ap -3 to be a real tank killer. 3 attacks from a70 point model is kinda lackluster even at str 8 with exploding 6s.

Dragoons really rely on that +2 to hit strategem and it’s 2cp

Please do provide me a ranking of your top 5. No characters or super-heavies please.

It's 1 CP. And it puts out high-volume, high-hit S8 attacks. Nobody else can do that. And forget AP. Volume is more important than AP, especially when you're fighting things with invulnerable saves.

Wulfey wrote:
The only unit in the imperium that competes with a 4x1 dragoons (272) are 6 stacks of Bullgryns with Priest backup (252+35).

A 4 stack of dragoons lands ~22 hits [str8,-1,2dam] on average with the strategem [5.5 x 4].

A 6 stack of Bullgryns lands ~21 hits [str7,-1,2dam] on average on the charge (2/3 of 34?).

Only roboute guilliman can do a comparable number of wounds on a swing, but his attacks are fewer in number and higher in quality [not really a good thing if the target as invul saves]. An imperial knight with the WLT for 5 attacks can do about 1/2-2/3 the damage of a dragoon stack.

Wait, okay, the real competitor are 10 stacks of sanguinary guard. They actually do real damage now, but they require like 270 points of support characters and cost 350 for the 10 stack, and they all die after their charge if your opponent has good AP weapons.

I would put Bullgryns at #2 for sure. They are pricey though, especially since you need to bring transports to get them in range, and that sort of sucks since they're supposed to go after vehicles. That's what separates them from Dragoons. Anyone can bring a unit of Dragoons for a massive boost in CC power without any strings attached. Bullgryns require you to build a component of your army around their use.

Dagger of Tusahk lets you outflank/deepstrike 1 character (the priest) and 1 infantry unit (bullgryns are infantry). And yes, I think dragoons are largely superior because they can more reliably get up the board an go on offense, whereas the bullgryns sort of require your enemy to attack you or rely on a 9" charge from the sidelines. Bullgryns are the A+ guard meatwall tho.

Also, really glad they're killing Smite spam and character spam.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Wulfey wrote:
Dagger of Tusahk lets you outflank/deepstrike 1 character (the priest) and 1 infantry unit (bullgryns are infantry). And yes, I think dragoons are largely superior because they can more reliably get up the board an go on offense, whereas the bullgryns sort of require your enemy to attack you or rely on a 9" charge from the sidelines. Bullgryns are the A+ guard meatwall tho.

Right. What happens when the transport you're hunting just runs away? XD

Dark reapers all have a 1 shot Str8, -2, flat3 damage weapons that always hit on a 3+, or a 2 shot str5, -2, flat2 damage weapon, both at 48".

So the top meta list in the world right now is 30 dark reapers, yvraine casting the ynarri spell one block of 10 ynarri dark reapers, some swooping hawks, and some wave serpents. The dark repears can disembark, shoot, and remebark using the eldar 'move again after shooting' strategem. The ynarri dark reapers can deep strike and yvraine lets them shoot twice with a spell. The swooping hawks all deep strike. Only things on the board are wave serpents which are point for point the toughest transports in the game. The various smite and character nerfs made this list stronger.

Dark reapers pee on dragoons, and also kill kastelons pretty easily. they flatly counter all -modifier strategies. The wave serpents pretty consistently get 6+ FNP, -1 to be hit, and reduce each instance of damage by 1 (so 2 damage weapons are terrible against them [basilisks and plasma]).

Anyone got any ideas? I faced someone with just 1 of these units and I had to blow my only good turn of wrath of mars robot fire to kill them or I would have just lost right there.

My 60+40 deepstrike skitarii list is actually borderline viable against these monsters since I can keep the killy troops off the board until the reapers expose themselves. Basilisks are of course good at firing at dark reapers when they are exposed, but usually face a -1 penalty to hit.

Wulfey wrote:
Dagger of Tusahk lets you outflank/deepstrike 1 character (the priest) and 1 infantry unit (bullgryns are infantry). And yes, I think dragoons are largely superior because they can more reliably get up the board an go on offense, whereas the bullgryns sort of require your enemy to attack you or rely on a 9" charge from the sidelines. Bullgryns are the A+ guard meatwall tho.

Check the AM errata you will find it can only be given to an officer so no priest and that means it can only target regiment infantry so no bullgryn

 Valentine009 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Valentine009 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
So, guys, I'd like to take a Tech-Priest Enginseer with the Autocaduceus in support of my Superheavy Tank Company, and he needs to be in a mechanicus detachment to access the Stratagems so he can use Tech-Adept to get 2 repair rolls per turn. He'd also be my Warlord, for Necromechanic, to give a superheavy tank 4-8 wounds back in one turn.

My question is: what sort of force should be built around him that's fun & interesting & engaging? I like Kataphrons but I doubt a lowly enginseer would have many with him, and the regular elite servitors are badly overpriced.

You will want 2 troop units so you can put them in a patrol. I think you usually have around 500 pts to work with right? I would do a 5 man squad of rangers with 2 TAs, and a 3 man kataphron squad with grav / flamers, plasma is better with rerolls. A 10 man squad of rangers might not be bad for screening as the enginseer is very fragile.

If Peltasts ever make a return and get thier shrouding super heavy ability they will prob be an awesome choice as well.

Could you do a BN? Or do you think that'd be too expensive?

If I just do a Patrol I need 1 troop is all.

What's a BN?

Slang for Battalion. I made a list with this boss repair warlord and 3 IG superheavies that has 13 CP and 3 detachments at 2k points with 52 models

An army full of missile spammers definitely seems scary to an army full of vehicles/MCs (like ours, Razorback spam, or Bash Brothers), but how does that list intend to beat horde armies? I think going forward, every army needs to be able to handle Tyranids.

U02dah4 wrote:

Wulfey wrote:
Dagger of Tusahk lets you outflank/deepstrike 1 character (the priest) and 1 infantry unit (bullgryns are infantry). And yes, I think dragoons are largely superior because they can more reliably get up the board an go on offense, whereas the bullgryns sort of require your enemy to attack you or rely on a 9" charge from the sidelines. Bullgryns are the A+ guard meatwall tho.

Check the AM errata you will find it can only be given to an officer so no priest and that means it can only target regiment infantry so no bullgryn

Looks like I missed that. That makes me wayyyyyy less likely to to buy any boxes of bullgryns.