Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

a) Preparing a good defensive position is key for the 50% that you need to deploy.
b) No, not unless you bring Plasma, which is not necessary.
c) Rangers if you are filling out a tax. Vanguard if you expect to use them to fight.
d) Vanguard are more efficient than Scions, and you don't have much else to waste CP on.

 kastelen wrote:
Onager can scoot and shoot which lets it keep its 3+ if not damaged.

well now I know what I'm calling moving my Onagers, scooting and shooting

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
The FW Vanquisher is garbage. The regular battletank russ outperforms every anti-tank Russ platform except for the Annihilator against tanks.

THAT SAID:
I can't speak highly enough of the neutron onager. Three of them (with a cawl bubble) have one-shotted one of my Baneblades in a single shooting phase before.

Two (if it doesn't move) S8 -3 D6 damage shots that can roll 2 dice when inflicting damage (discarding lowest) and can shoot at 3+ to-hit (if it didn't move) and re-roll any hits (via Co-Axial) is actually pretty good as a comparison to our Neutronager.

Vs. one of my Baneblades:

LRBT Vanquisher:
2 shots, 1.67 hits, .83 wounds, (x4.5 damage for 2d6/highest) = 3.76 wounds done to my baneblade per shooting phase.

Neutron Onager:
2 shots, 1.33 hits, .89 wounds, (x 4.5 damage for 1d6 min 3) = 4.1 wounds done to my baneblade per shooting phase.

And the Onager can move while doing it. And benefit from Canticles, which help it far more than Regimental Traits. And benefit from Forge World Dogmas (my Baneblade is -1 to hit it back, for example), and benefit from Cawl re-rolls, and can be repaired by the Tech-Priest Dominus without requiring an Enginseer, and has an invuln save for a >16% increase in durability that is always on (T8 is only a 16% increase in durability and only sometimes... e.g. it is useless against lascannons).

My point was that they are about as close in form/function as you can get for a comparison in that they are high strength, low shot count, decent AP anti-tank style weapons. I am purposefully not including Cawl or repair or Canticles, because those force multipliers would add to overall point investment (driving up points-per-damage cost). The next best comparison to the Neutronager is the basic Battle Tank, but that has versatility we don't have (because it tosses 2d6, it can go after tanks or dudes).

So to me, comparing a Neutronager to a Plascutioner isn't going to paint a good picture. The former is a tank-hunter, the latter is a TEQ/MEQ hunter. Hence my whole mentioning of the Vanquisher - because that is the closest in form/function.

Well... that TEQ/MEQ Hunter is a better tank hunter than the tank hunter

Hi folks.

I have a really nooby question relating to the below. A.) Are you guys buying the boxes of cadian to assemble these guys?

1) CADIA - CP and LOS battalion [~504 points]
2x Company Commander (60) - take 5+ refunding CP WLT and either Kurov's or Relic of Lost Cadia
3x10 Guardsmen (120) - take mortars if you can, these are the front rank that do the dying

3x1 or 1x3 Basilisks (324) - B.) where does one buy these models I can’t find them anywhere.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ie do you need to eBay extra weapons and that for the cadians or is the standard boxes x3 enough?

Where do you get basilisks from as I can’t find them on the store.

Cheers

gendoikari87 wrote:
Well... that TEQ/MEQ Hunter is a better tank hunter than the tank hunter

Only if it supercharges and rolls a decent amount of shots, because it has a lower strength (7 and 8 vs 9), worse AP (not that that matters that much), lower damage output (per shot) and a worse BS.

The Executioner SC'd does about 4 damage to T8, while the Neutronager can do between 3-6. This is not counting any re-rolls and factoring in averages for the variable shots. The swing on random shot weapons is pretty annoying though. The Plasma can randomly toss out like 12 shots, which would be amazing, but so is our 3 shots.

The key though is that whole context thing. Cawl being such a force multiplier, along with the other perks, it makes our option more appealing. 5++ can't be understated.

Suzuteo wrote:

a) Preparing a good defensive position is key for the 50% that you need to deploy.
b) No, not unless you bring Plasma, which is not necessary.
c) Rangers if you are filling out a tax. Vanguard if you expect to use them to fight.
d) Vanguard are more efficient than Scions, and you don't have much else to waste CP on.

a) Sure. Guardsman at the front, basilisk / HWT in the back I guess?

b) Why is it not necessary? Seems like pretty solid weapon to me. Or is it mathematically better to just bring Radium Carbines / Galvanic Rifles?

c) Nope in my concept they are included to actually fight, so Vanguard.

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

gendoikari87 wrote:
Well... that TEQ/MEQ Hunter is a better tank hunter than the tank hunter

Only if it supercharges and rolls a decent amount of shots, because it has a lower strength (7 and 8 vs 9), worse AP (not that that matters that much), lower damage output (per shot) and a worse BS.

The Executioner SC'd does about 4 damage to T8, while the Neutronager can do between 3-6. This is not counting any re-rolls and factoring in averages for the variable shots. The swing on random shot weapons is pretty annoying though. The Plasma can randomly toss out like 12 shots, which would be amazing, but so is our 3 shots.

The key though is that whole context thing. Cawl being such a force multiplier, along with the other perks, it makes our option more appealing. 5++ can't be understated.

overcharging is not an issue. Cadians can negate the mortal wounds entirely if they sit still. Tank orders give rerolls of 1. Guard has a lot of ways to avoid or outright negate the dangers of overcharge. Even without that it’s a good trade off.

This is a game of averages and in anti tank the neutronager scores 3-3.5 wounds to vehicles per turn. The plasmacutioner does 5.5-7. That’s just a fact. Yes that’s over charging. But guard has ways to not have to worry about that. Simply put the plasmacutioner does 2x the wounds against most vehicles at not twice the cost


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And it shouldn’t be that surprising, 8th heavily favors plasma


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And if you want to truly cry at how badly admechs been neglected. Go look at twin lascannon tarantula for the guard and realize they’re cheaper than kataphrons

gendoikari87 wrote:

This is a game of averages and in anti tank the neutronager scores 3-3.5 wounds to vehicles per turn. The plasmacutioner does 5.5-7. That’s just a fact. Yes that’s over charging. But guard has ways to not have to worry about that. Simply put the plasmacutioner does 2x the wounds against most vehicles at not twice the cost

Not sure how you are getting averages like that, when I counted supercharged Plasma on straight averages and it was much closer. Are you adding in some re-rolls or something? Because I am not, but that single 1 that would be re-rolled isn't likely to turn into damage.

Also, it appears I rounded for common sense because we can't do 3.5 or 5.5 damage (or even 7 damage with Plasma, since it goes in increments of 2) in a turn.

Leman Russ has a hull lascannon. firing twice with the d6 and two d3 plasma cannons gives you a total average of 11 plasma shots 5.5 of those hit 3.66 to 2.75 wound depending on t7 or t8. 16% chance to save with 2 damage gives you 4.5 to 6.11 average damage from those depending on toughness. Then the lascannon is good for an average of .98 or roughly 1 average damage. Without moving or any modifiers that’s 5.5 to 7 average damage before factoring in any bonuses whatsoever. And average of 2 mortal wounds taken. Throw on overlapping fire and cadian and you can pretty much negate those mortals and also move up to half speed.

Or if you don’t care about mortals and just want to dakka everything. Go catachan for insane firepower bonuses

gendoikari87 wrote:
Leman Russ has a hull lascannon. firing twice with the d6 and two d3 plasma cannons gives you a total average of 11 plasma shots 5.5 of those hit 3.66 to 2.75 wound depending on t7 or t8. 16% chance to save with 2 damage gives you 4.5 to 6.11 average damage from those depending on toughness. Then the lascannon is good for an average of .98 or roughly 1 average damage. Without moving or any modifiers that’s 5.5 to 7 average damage before factoring in any bonuses whatsoever. And average of 2 mortal wounds taken. Throw on overlapping fire and cadian and you can pretty much negate those mortals and also move up to half speed.

Or if you don’t care about mortals and just want to dakka everything. Go catachan for insane firepower bonuses

I am not comparing the secondary weaponry, as that is all subjective, since it is optional weaponry.

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

gendoikari87 wrote:
Leman Russ has a hull lascannon. firing twice with the d6 and two d3 plasma cannons gives you a total average of 11 plasma shots 5.5 of those hit 3.66 to 2.75 wound depending on t7 or t8. 16% chance to save with 2 damage gives you 4.5 to 6.11 average damage from those depending on toughness. Then the lascannon is good for an average of .98 or roughly 1 average damage. Without moving or any modifiers that’s 5.5 to 7 average damage before factoring in any bonuses whatsoever. And average of 2 mortal wounds taken. Throw on overlapping fire and cadian and you can pretty much negate those mortals and also move up to half speed.

Or if you don’t care about mortals and just want to dakka everything. Go catachan for insane firepower bonuses

I am not comparing the secondary weaponry, as that is all subjective, since it is optional weaponry.

except it exists. You DO have to take it into account. Technically speaking the neutron laser is optional, should we be comparing a russ to eradication Beamer onager?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The only real advantage to the onager is it can move and fire without any sort of penalty, and it has a decent invuln save. Which against most threats generally speaking evens out to make it russ like in toughness.

gendoikari87 wrote:

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

gendoikari87 wrote:
Leman Russ has a hull lascannon. firing twice with the d6 and two d3 plasma cannons gives you a total average of 11 plasma shots 5.5 of those hit 3.66 to 2.75 wound depending on t7 or t8. 16% chance to save with 2 damage gives you 4.5 to 6.11 average damage from those depending on toughness. Then the lascannon is good for an average of .98 or roughly 1 average damage. Without moving or any modifiers that’s 5.5 to 7 average damage before factoring in any bonuses whatsoever. And average of 2 mortal wounds taken. Throw on overlapping fire and cadian and you can pretty much negate those mortals and also move up to half speed.

Or if you don’t care about mortals and just want to dakka everything. Go catachan for insane firepower bonuses

I am not comparing the secondary weaponry, as that is all subjective, since it is optional weaponry.

except it exists. You DO have to take it into account. Technically speaking the neutron laser is optional, should we be comparing a russ to eradication Beamer onager?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The only real advantage to the onager is it can move and fire without any sort of penalty, and it has a decent invuln save. Which against most threats generally speaking evens out to make it russ like in toughness.

Disingenuous there, man. You assume a Lascannon, when it could be a Heavy Bolter. The Neutron isn't optional on a Neutronager, but the second CHS is. Notice I don't factor them into the equation.

It’s not disingenuous you have the option to take them....as in you can control that. You aren’t randomly rolling for weapons on your russ. Just admit it, you’re wrong on this.

gendoikari87 wrote:
It’s not disingenuous you have the option to take them....as in you can control that. You aren’t randomly rolling for weapons on your russ. Just admit it, you’re wrong on this.

I am not wrong, given my comparison is between the two primary weapons without re-rolls. You are adding other variables.

Trust me, I have learned it the hard way that it is always better to bring more russes instead of kitting them out with sponsons (especially such expensive upgrades like lascanons and plasma canons)

It is really not that hard to kill a Russ.

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

gendoikari87 wrote:
It’s not disingenuous you have the option to take them....as in you can control that. You aren’t randomly rolling for weapons on your russ. Just admit it, you’re wrong on this.

I am not wrong, given my comparison is between the two primary weapons without re-rolls. You are adding other variables.

im not adding other variables I’m using what’s on the sheet. Stop trolling.

gendoikari87 wrote:

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

gendoikari87 wrote:
It’s not disingenuous you have the option to take them....as in you can control that. You aren’t randomly rolling for weapons on your russ. Just admit it, you’re wrong on this.

I am not wrong, given my comparison is between the two primary weapons without re-rolls. You are adding other variables.

im not adding other variables I’m using what’s on the sheet. Stop trolling.

It isn't trolling. If it was me running Guard, I would be running the Executioner with just a hull HB, because why would I sink more points into guns when I can add just more Russ to a list?

Well that’s you. Good for you. Other people have other options. It’s on the sheet.

gendoikari87 wrote:
Well that’s you. Good for you. Other people have other options. It’s on the sheet.

Sorry, I was going for what would be "optimal". Taking a 20pt Lascannon that hits on a 5+ when it moves is less than stellar. That is why you go bare-bones and just spam tanks. That also ensures that, since the Russ has no invuln, each loss is less painful and you put more wounds on the table.

Again, that is why I was comparing the main gun, as that is more fruitful for the comparison.

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

gendoikari87 wrote:

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

gendoikari87 wrote:
It’s not disingenuous you have the option to take them....as in you can control that. You aren’t randomly rolling for weapons on your russ. Just admit it, you’re wrong on this.

I am not wrong, given my comparison is between the two primary weapons without re-rolls. You are adding other variables.

im not adding other variables I’m using what’s on the sheet. Stop trolling.

It isn't trolling. If it was me running Guard, I would be running the Executioner with just a hull HB, because why would I sink more points into guns when I can add just more Russ to a list?

You'd be running an executioner russ with a HB? Why that loadout, out of curiosity? I play purely bareones russes, but I don't think I'd bother with an executioner if I wasn't also taking it with plasma cannons and some kind of re-roll access (usually by taking it as a Tank Commander and ordering himself to reroll 1s). Also keep in mind the lascannon is 20pts but it's only 12 over the mandatory HB, if you're going for a build that's got the improved BS and the reroll you may as well go for it.

There's plenty of reasons to put extra upgrades on your russes. a three-HF punisher in my experience is far better than a base bolter punisher because its practically impossible to tie up at the range it typically engages. If I'm going for a barebones russ, I generally run Battle Cannons because they don't wound themselves about twice per turn.

the_scotsman wrote:

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

gendoikari87 wrote:

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

gendoikari87 wrote:
It’s not disingenuous you have the option to take them....as in you can control that. You aren’t randomly rolling for weapons on your russ. Just admit it, you’re wrong on this.

I am not wrong, given my comparison is between the two primary weapons without re-rolls. You are adding other variables.

im not adding other variables I’m using what’s on the sheet. Stop trolling.

It isn't trolling. If it was me running Guard, I would be running the Executioner with just a hull HB, because why would I sink more points into guns when I can add just more Russ to a list?

You'd be running an executioner russ with a HB? Why that loadout, out of curiosity? I play purely bareones russes, but I don't think I'd bother with an executioner if I wasn't also taking it with plasma cannons and some kind of re-roll access (usually by taking it as a Tank Commander and ordering himself to reroll 1s). Also keep in mind the lascannon is 20pts but it's only 12 over the mandatory HB, if you're going for a build that's got the improved BS and the reroll you may as well go for it.

There's plenty of reasons to put extra upgrades on your russes. a three-HF punisher in my experience is far better than a base bolter punisher because its practically impossible to tie up at the range it typically engages. If I'm going for a barebones russ, I generally run Battle Cannons because they don't wound themselves about twice per turn.

Because more tanks > extras. Spamming them, essentially. They aren't that hard to kill, so if you load up on goodies, you lose a lot when your tank goes boom. I'd rather saturate the field with T8 wounds, personally.

And we aren't talking TCs or with orders, etc. Well, I am not. I am comparing the Russ to the Dunecralwer.

I do concur though, that bare bones the LRBT is ideal. But the Executioner came up, so that prompted the discussion.

I think it’s time to stop debating with em. You can’t just take worst case scenario up against best. I could compare a bare bones russ up against an eradicator if that’s the case. Or a neutronager at 2 wounds. There’s always a way to fudge the numbers so you win if you aren’t debating in good faith. I think em has proven he is not. So back to ignore

gendoikari87 wrote:
I think it’s time to stop debating with em. You can’t just take worst case scenario up against best. I could compare a bare bones russ up against an eradicator if that’s the case. Or a neutronager at 2 wounds. There’s always a way to fudge the numbers so you win if you aren’t debating in good faith. I think em has proven he is not. So back to ignore

Who is talking worse/best case scenarios or anything? I am comparing weapons. You are comparing a specific build of Russ, which I find a bit misleading.

These are two different things. You said I was wrong, but I was not, because I was not talking about all the frills. Hilariously, you are fudging numbers by adding in stuff like Lascannons. That isn't on the base model, that is an expensive upgrade that really isn't something I see on competitive Russ loadouts often.

But whatever. Bow out of a discussion. You do you boo-boo.

So my comment was lost in all the excitement.

I’m slightly new to 40k

The basilisks that everyone is raving about taking...Sold out online. Can’t find them other than direct games workshop page.

Are these old out of production models or have they just had a brief stock issue.

Thanks

Ideasweasel wrote:
So my comment was lost in all the excitement.

I’m slightly new to 40k

The basilisks that everyone is raving about taking...Sold out online. Can’t find them other than direct games workshop page.

Are these old out of production models or have they just had a brief stock issue.

Thanks

they are older but are in production (hence webstore only) and they're getting hit with a combination of the stock issues everything is having, and the stock issues that come from an older less popular kit that was terrible for like 4 editions suddenly becoming the meta hotness (See: What happened with Vauls Wrath batteries for Eldar last edition)

The fact that theyre older makes them pretty dang easy to find on ebay though. Maybe check there if you're OK with stripping paint you can buy them assembled for about 40 bucks easily.

If you are new though, one word of caution: Kits are expensive, and time consuming, and a giant, giant pain to swap out for something else usually, and the rules change drastically. If you're buying something for the sole purpose of getting the rules attached to it and you don't look forward to painting it and you don't think its concept is particularly interesting...pass it up. in a year, you'll be much happier buying a varied army of stuff you really like than having a spam list that's an edition or a FAQ or a chapter approved behind the competitive curve.

Ask 90% of tau players how they like their 5 Riptides now.

Ideasweasel wrote:
So my comment was lost in all the excitement.

I’m slightly new to 40k

The basilisks that everyone is raving about taking...Sold out online. Can’t find them other than direct games workshop page.

Are these old out of production models or have they just had a brief stock issue.

Thanks

It's a stocking issue. They had it already several times this edition, because as you mentioned every one is talking about then and thus buying them

Ideasweasel wrote:
So my comment was lost in all the excitement.

I’m slightly new to 40k

The basilisks that everyone is raving about taking...Sold out online. Can’t find them other than direct games workshop page.

Are these old out of production models or have they just had a brief stock issue.

Thanks

Look for a local GW store. They may have some in stock.

Thanks folks, will have a look in my local later this week

Yeah the basilisk is one of those models that will never go away