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 Fafnir wrote:

gendoikari87 wrote:
that's because GW's going for incremental balancing. they don't want to over/under nerf anything in one go. they're literally seeing what gets used at tournaments nerfing the things that get spammed and buffing the things that don't get used, I.E. Don't sell.

We must not be reading the same Chapter Approved then.

Right. For plastic models you can buy, mathematically terrible units (intercessors, inceptors, sicarians, etc.) got 10% point reductions. They are still awful because the problem was their durability for their points. For resin models that they don't even sell (ESBs, malefic lords, etc.), GW doled out 50-100% point increases. The nerfs were hard. The buffs were small. This is how blizzard does their balancing as well.

gendoikari87 wrote:
that's because GW's going for incremental balancing. they don't want to over/under nerf anything in one go. they're literally seeing what gets used at tournaments nerfing the things that get spammed and buffing the things that don't get used, I.E. Don't sell.

LOL. It's a biannual nerf, and it shows. They're going to try to sweep as many problems away in one go, since we're going to be stuck with this meta for 6 months.

Anyhow, it's common practice to err on the side of weaker when nerfing and buffing.

6 Months is nothing compared to the years-long wait times there used to be.

True. They do seem to register that a focus on competitive play is what's profitable for them in the long run.

If they do decide to go all-in on this, we can also see:
1) More easily built and painted models (more players)
2) Downward pressure on points (faster games)
3) Multi-army events (more variety)
4) An official GW circuit and player rating (more control)

So what was the consensus on Breachers? They seem pretty decent as a unit we could use to push with instead of just relying on Vanguard and/or Dragoons.

I'd be especially interested to know if anyone uses them with the Warlord Trait which allows to-hit re-rolls. Could be very powerful on units with 3 Str 6/12 hits a piece...

I tried breachers once and was facing off against some 2+ armor bullgryns. I thought to myself, "Ok, my elite melee unit vs his elite melee unit, I should get the charge off to attack first."

Then I realized how few attacks they have.

Then I realized that they're 5+ to hit.

Then I realized their weapon is only AP MINUS ONE unlike every other powerfist equivalent in the game.

Yep, F that unit, never using them again.

They are uncompetitive and pretty awful but are still better than destroyers

The Heavy Arc Rifle itself needs a buff, not just a points reduction.

i use breachers as my second line of defence with -1 to it stygies ad usually dominus nearby. Big bases good defence and soem utility.They arent effrective at killing but are nice tar pit exactly why i use them. Especialyl if i got counter priests on my deefence or vanguard etc. I know thye are not superb but can do some damage in light vehicles especially in heavy transport armies. or even do melee damage especially with stratagem and canticles.

I dont say they are superb nor compare to other good ones like draggons but i need them as troops and for 120 points i take them to have a usage instead of dead 5 man rangers.

i see many argue you can use 95 points snipers etc etc.
my answer is simple.
you can decide to play your army as you like. we got the best shooting vs many others if not top shooting army. but in order to make it effective you must decide.
If you got 5-6 robots draggons Cawl 3-4 onagers etc you definetly need screener units and lots of them. you cant take only range units.
If you decide to invest in snipers you ll need at least 4 guns to have a chance to do some tactic work and i dont want to spend 200 points in them. I know they are good and i got a list with 4 sure but not in here. you ll need 2 battalions to invest in snipers and i dont like to have 6 troop options.
after all the games iv played the max investment for me is.
One battalion
1x5 rangers
1x7-10 vang.
1x3+ breachers.
then i take our superb mech. Dont need 1 wound models spamming doing practically nothing vs any other unit we got that is healable buffable and pretty darn superb.

If i have to go heave 2 battalions for command points then id decide prio to take snipers and almost same second battalion.
and definetly invest in mobility after than so less robots. not a static line beyond snipers. so its a decision for the rest of the army.

Same decision seems to be gaining ground. 3 onagers must and default 2 neutron 1x icarus being the best option for me.

for soup i decied 2 basilisks are the sweet point for me. and my list detachments.

happy new year

the_scotsman wrote:
I tried breachers once and was facing off against some 2+ armor bullgryns. I thought to myself, "Ok, my elite melee unit vs his elite melee unit, I should get the charge off to attack first."

Then I realized how few attacks they have.

Then I realized that they're 5+ to hit.

Then I realized their weapon is only AP MINUS ONE unlike every other powerfist equivalent in the game.

Yep, F that unit, never using them again.

A bullgryn is 42 points. They hit point for point at a comparable level (assuming point discounts) to a dragoon with the +2 to hit buff assuming the bullgryns their their charge +1 attack and +1 attack for a priest. Dragoons are faster and more flexible, bullgryns generally tougher.

@yoda
You would want 6 not 4 snipers for consistency if your going down that route.

Thing is its not 5 man vanguard vs 120pt breatchers

Its 3x5 man vanguard and collectively they are tankier and not bad anti-infantfy

Can you field what you want of course but if you want breatchers you are disadvantaged especially post Chapter approved as the vanguard/ranger price reduction really makes them comparable to guard infantry


Automatically Appended Next Post:

the_scotsman wrote:
I tried breachers once and was facing off against some 2+ armor bullgryns. I thought to myself, "Ok, my elite melee unit vs his elite melee unit, I should get the charge off to attack first."

Then I realized how few attacks they have.

Then I realized that they're 5+ to hit.

Then I realized their weapon is only AP MINUS ONE unlike every other powerfist equivalent in the game.

Yep, F that unit, never using them again.

So you now recognise your first mistake was taking breachers and your second was letting them get charged by a CC unit even a comparatively bad one like bullgryns.

Speaking of shielding from melee, has anyone attempted using large units of Cognis Autocannon Balistarii?

Using the strategm to fire Cognis weapons in overwatch using normal BS with 4 Autocannon shots a pop could be pretty tasty at either preventing elite units from getting in, or removing the punch from the larger units charging them

 MIKEtheMERCILESS wrote:
Speaking of shielding from melee, has anyone attempted using large units of Cognis Autocannon Balistarii?

Using the strategm to fire Cognis weapons in overwatch using normal BS with 4 Autocannon shots a pop could be pretty tasty at either preventing elite units from getting in, or removing the punch from the larger units charging them

Autocannons are a hammer in search of a nail. They are efficiently against elite infantry that pretty much don't exist.

That being said, in terms of role, if you have Neutron Crawlers, you can take Autocannon Ballistarii for anti-MEQ, though I personally like an Icarus Crawler instead.

Suzuteo wrote:

 MIKEtheMERCILESS wrote:
Speaking of shielding from melee, has anyone attempted using large units of Cognis Autocannon Balistarii?

Using the strategm to fire Cognis weapons in overwatch using normal BS with 4 Autocannon shots a pop could be pretty tasty at either preventing elite units from getting in, or removing the punch from the larger units charging them

Autocannons are a hammer in search of a nail. They are efficiently against elite infantry that pretty much don't exist.

That being said, in terms of role, if you have Neutron Crawlers, you can take Autocannon Ballistarii for anti-MEQ, though I personally like an Icarus Crawler instead.

Could you elaborate? I tend to find Autocannons one of the most useful weapons in bang-to-buck ratio - MEQs, vehicles, multi-wound units; While I have a lot of rather specialist units in my army, I find it's very useful to have something versatile to ensure I always have options. Besides, 1 CP for a relatively cheap 12 Autocannon shots on a 2+ is a problem for anything bar a Primarch/Land Raider/Conscript squad

Ah I finally have multiple Dragoons, bought myself one and received another as a gift from someone who stops Mechanicus. I'll try it in this list at 2000 pts against two guys at my store in the end of the week:

Bataillon (Stygies VIII) +3 CP:

- 1 Tech-Priest Dominus, Monitor Malevolus
- 1 Tech-Priest Dominus, Eradication Ray

- 8 Vanguards, PBP, Taser Goad, Plasma Caliver
- 9 Vanguards, Arc Pistol, Arc Maul, Arc Rifle
- 8 Rangers, 2 Arquebuses, Omnispex
- 3 Kataphron Destroyers, 3 Plasma Culverins, 3 Phosphor Blasters

- 3 Sydonian Dragoons

- 5 Sicarian Infiltrators, Tasers and Blasters
- 1 Cybernetica Datasmith

- 1 Onager Dunecrawler, Neutron Laser and 2 Stubbers
- 1 Onager Dunecrawler, Icarus Array
- 2 Kastelans Robots, full Phosphor
 
Patrol (Militarum Tempestus):

- 1 Tempestor Prime with Command Rod
- 4 Tempestus Command Squad, 2 Plasma guns, 2 Meltas
- 5 Tempestus Scions, Plasma pistol, Chainsword, Flamer, Hot-Shot Volley Gun
- 1 Taurox Prime, Gatling cannon, 2 Hot-Shot Volley Guns, Bolter Storm

 MIKEtheMERCILESS wrote:

Suzuteo wrote:

 MIKEtheMERCILESS wrote:
Speaking of shielding from melee, has anyone attempted using large units of Cognis Autocannon Balistarii?

Using the strategm to fire Cognis weapons in overwatch using normal BS with 4 Autocannon shots a pop could be pretty tasty at either preventing elite units from getting in, or removing the punch from the larger units charging them

Autocannons are a hammer in search of a nail. They are efficiently against elite infantry that pretty much don't exist.

That being said, in terms of role, if you have Neutron Crawlers, you can take Autocannon Ballistarii for anti-MEQ, though I personally like an Icarus Crawler instead.

Could you elaborate? I tend to find Autocannons one of the most useful weapons in bang-to-buck ratio - MEQs, vehicles, multi-wound units; While I have a lot of rather specialist units in my army, I find it's very useful to have something versatile to ensure I always have options. Besides, 1 CP for a relatively cheap 12 Autocannon shots on a 2+ is a problem for anything bar a Primarch/Land Raider/Conscript squad

Well, you have to compare them to Twin Lascannons, Neutron Lasers, Icarus Arrays, and Heavy Phosphor for efficiency within certain roles. Autocannons have a jack of all trades profile that is often beat out against specific targets by one of the three aforementioned weapons.

Everything the autocannon ballistari does ... the icarus onager does better. Ballistari only make sense in seriously skew builds where you run 4+ of them to stack up the benefits of the +2 to hit strategem. 2x Ballistari generate 8 autocannon shots for 150 points, but an icarus onager is way tougher for 130 points and shoots better on the move with comparable firepower.

And they are stronger against Hemlock Fighters and Daemon Primarchs than Neutron Lasers. Not to mention they burn through low and mid-toughness flying units like Assault Marines, Elysians, Shining Spears, Battlesuits, etc. like nothing else in the game.

Also depends on what you have slots for. A battlation with 2 neutrons and robots has no room for an icarus onager but has plenty of room for balistarii. Not having onager in squads any more really screws with out force organisation in 8th. Whereas with ironstriders you have the flexibility to have more or less investment in each slot.

U02dah4 wrote:
They are uncompetitive and pretty awful but are still better than destroyers

Man I did not see that at all lol. My grav/phosphor destroyers have always performed pretty OK. not as good as dakkastelans for the points obviously but they do more damage on average vs tanks with the grav guns and they fill troop slots/have obsec/can move.

Breachers are just....loathsome. The "T5-6, tons of wounds, no save" stat vehicle that they want to be targeting just doesn't exist.

the_scotsman wrote:

U02dah4 wrote:
They are uncompetitive and pretty awful but are still better than destroyers

Man I did not see that at all lol. My grav/phosphor destroyers have always performed pretty OK. not as good as dakkastelans for the points obviously but they do more damage on average vs tanks with the grav guns and they fill troop slots/have obsec/can move.

Breachers are just....loathsome. The "T5-6, tons of wounds, no save" stat vehicle that they want to be targeting just doesn't exist.

I think it´s not really their dmg that is lacking, but more that their cost/durability ratio is pretty lackluster.

the_scotsman wrote:

U02dah4 wrote:
They are uncompetitive and pretty awful but are still better than destroyers

Man I did not see that at all lol. My grav/phosphor destroyers have always performed pretty OK. not as good as dakkastelans for the points obviously but they do more damage on average vs tanks with the grav guns and they fill troop slots/have obsec/can move.

Breachers are just....loathsome. The "T5-6, tons of wounds, no save" stat vehicle that they want to be targeting just doesn't exist.

Yeah I agree. Breachers are terrible. At least with destroyers they can be hidden behind ruins and have a 35" range. Coupled with Cawl they put out hurt. Wouldn't take more than 2 groups of 3 of them but they do enough that they dont hamstring you. Just don't deploy them on the front line and expect to like them.

I am biased as I have a hard on for breachers and destroyers but I can tell you, they always do well in my games. DONT give them the hydralic Claws unless you are dedicating them to attacking buildings, where their -1 to hit will no longer apply.

Heavy Arc Rfiles can kill infantry pretty well but excell and scaring your opponent. Having two squads (6 in total) firing at a tank will heavily damage it due to volly fire. Combine this with rerolls from Cawl or Dom and you can even pop tanks outright with some luck on the damge rolls. D6 is nothing to sneeze at.

Torsion cannons... I love them but unless you bring Cawl... You need those rerolls otherwise just take an Onagar with beam, it will probaly do the job better and roughly the same amount of points.

Destroyers, I know most people hate due to their high cost and realtive soft chasiss but man, they do work in all my games. I prefer the Grav over the Plasma though, as I like to have 15 shots over 3D6. Just prefrence though.

well that went better than expected. Onagers and Kastellans sold. officially out of mechanicus.

gendoikari87 wrote:
well that went better than expected. Onagers and Kastellans sold. officially out of mechanicus.

What are you getting in to? CHAOS has so many viable options, and none of it is spam.

Wulfey wrote:

gendoikari87 wrote:
well that went better than expected. Onagers and Kastellans sold. officially out of mechanicus.

What are you getting in to? CHAOS has so many viable options, and none of it is spam.

Bah, i could never stray THAT far from the light of the omnissiah. No. I will be joining the guard.

gendoikari87 wrote:

Wulfey wrote:

gendoikari87 wrote:
well that went better than expected. Onagers and Kastellans sold. officially out of mechanicus.

What are you getting in to? CHAOS has so many viable options, and none of it is spam.

Bah, i could never stray THAT far from the light of the omnissiah. No. I will be joining the guard.

Eh. Most of us are a third of the way there anyway. Got ourselves some Tech Guard going on. xD

Yeah. Though I’m using this to get a super heavy and considering a knight. Got two lemons, infantry and two manticore..... still debating which super a knight or tank

So I've finally accepted the mathematical truth (praise be the Machine-God) and found a tool to Mathammer with the basic variables. However I had difficulty calculating the exploding hits for the Dragoons so I don't believe they're exactly right. Also for some reason, for the Dunecrawler I have more damage with rerolls of 1 than with full rerolls, I wonder if there's a glitch in the formula or something, so if anyone could check out the maths for these two entries I'd be grateful.

Anyway, I calculated these results to know which of these units were the more reliable to destroy Leman Russes (trauma of facing three of them the other day) and surprisingly the most efficient, barring Stratagems and support characters, are the Fistelans. Feel free to do the maths again if you have more advanced tools Here's the results:


This is my first time doing this so there may be mistake, but barring any rerolls and stratagems the Fistelans are the most efficient against Leman Russes. The Neutronager results don't convince me at all with these rerolls shenanigans, I wonder what went wrong. The results were 1,78 hits, 1,19 wounds, 1,19 unsaved wounds, 4,15 total Damage. What is strange is that the calculations went fine with the shooty Kastelans. I entered 3,5 for the Damage value as I believe it's the average on a D6 where 3 is the minimum Damage ?

average damage for D6 minimum 3 is the average of 3, 3, 3, 4, 5, and 6. That's 4.0.