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Suzuteo wrote:

 lash92 wrote:
Haven't read the Demons Codex yet. What's up with the Nurglings and how can they stop your infiltration?

They can deploy anywhere up to 9" from the enemy deployment zone.

The new codex adds "9" ... and any enemy models"

EDIT: all 'scout' units should be faqqed to include the any enemy models portion. the space marine FAQ adds that to scout marines.

OH. Well, if it counts enemy models, then we might as well go back to what we were theorizing in June and use Dominion squads. They actually pair well with Celestine...

Suzuteo wrote:
OH. Well, if it counts enemy models, then we might as well go back to what we were theorizing in June and use Dominion squads. They actually pair well with Celestine...

No I don´t think so. If I understood it right then Nurglings deploy during the deployment phase but 9" away from an enemy and his deployment zone. (So like the Space Marine Scouts)
Domions have a 9" inch move at the end of the deployment, so like Scout Sentinels.
Thus he can already deploy his Nurglings so that you can´t make your scout and he secures himself a place to deepstrike.

Dominion squads don't get Concealed Positions. They get Vanguard, which is a move before the first turn. (It really sucks that we have Scouts and Vanguard that don't scout or vanguard.) Meaning you can set them up on the edge of your deployment, then move 6" up in any direction. If they are in a Rhino, it's a 12" move.

And yeah, you don't get to contest the no man's land in between deployment zones, but that's a crapshoot; if the opponent scouts first, you are just going to have to start your deployment further away. Moving your Sisters up 6" before the battle starts to deny first turn Deep Strike is pretty good too.

The reason why everyone uses scout marines is because they are troops. Troop slots generate way more CP than elite or fast attack slot choices. Nurglings are also troops. Admech has its weaknesses, but of all the codexes in imperium, MARS admech is one of the best at turning CP into damage through wrath of mars. Most imperium codexes struggle to turn CP into damage.

For some crazy reason, I thought the triangle symbol meant Fast Attack. xO

So... Imperium Soup Battalion with 1 Company Commander, 1 Primaris Psyker, 10 Scouts (divide into 2x5), 2x10 Guard?

Most of us have a soup Batallion with Celestine, Scouts and a Primaris, if you have spare points even a culexus. Plus a separate Guard Batallion.

Off topic but all this soup talk turns me to food. My missus made an amazing pot of chilli and butternut squash soup earlier

1100100

It's funny that an army whose defining characteristic in the past was its faction-wide Scout is now begging for Scout from other factions...

Suzuteo wrote:
For some crazy reason, I thought the triangle symbol meant Fast Attack. xO

So... Imperium Soup Battalion with 1 Company Commander, 1 Primaris Psyker, 10 Scouts (divide into 2x5), 2x10 Guard?

why guard? And take three units of scouts. All daemon players wo think straight will take three nurglings and you will regret it.

How have people's experiences with Infiltrators been? They appear on paper to fulfil a similar role to Kastellans, in that they are great anti-horde, and with Wrath of Mars - can unleash a decent number of Mortal Wounds.

Iago40k wrote:

Suzuteo wrote:
For some crazy reason, I thought the triangle symbol meant Fast Attack. xO

So... Imperium Soup Battalion with 1 Company Commander, 1 Primaris Psyker, 10 Scouts (divide into 2x5), 2x10 Guard?

why guard? And take three units of scouts. All daemon players wo think straight will take three nurglings and you will regret it.

Several reasons for guard:
1) Cheap CP
2) cheap bodies
3) No-los shooting
4) CP regain (5+/5+)
5) if playing against chaos: Relic of lost cadia

 MIKEtheMERCILESS wrote:
How have people's experiences with Infiltrators been? They appear on paper to fulfil a similar role to Kastellans, in that they are great anti-horde, and with Wrath of Mars - can unleash a decent number of Mortal Wounds.

I think a 10 stack has a place in a competitive list if you have the CP to spare. You will need to be running some kind of admech MARS spearhead and two guard battalions to be able to afford the 3CP** you will want to spend on that infiltrator volley [having played with double battalion and 5+/5+ I am not going back down to 6 CP lists]. I am considering swapping out 2 basilisks for 10 infiltrators and relying on mortars over the big guns. The problem with the infiltrators is that they are vulnerable to good screening, instantly die to incidental volume of fire weapons found on every vehicle in the game, and compete with robots for CP and for once a turn wrath of mars. I do think they can be viable tho if you aren't running basilisks. They add 1 guaranteed turn of 50 wrath of mars shots that can hit something your robots can't.

** You will want to use the +1 to hit strategem for skitarii infantry and have the reroll 1s to hit in the shooting phase canticle up when the infiltrators drop. This will surprise opponents who rely on negative modifiers.

Iago40k wrote:

Suzuteo wrote:
For some crazy reason, I thought the triangle symbol meant Fast Attack. xO

So... Imperium Soup Battalion with 1 Company Commander, 1 Primaris Psyker, 10 Scouts (divide into 2x5), 2x10 Guard?

why guard? And take three units of scouts. All daemon players wo think straight will take three nurglings and you will regret it.

You also need the Guardsmen to fill the area inside your deployment zone.

 lash92 wrote:

gendoikari87 wrote:
so after a few games with pure guard, i can say manticore outperform Neutronagers easily. similar damage output, but can fire from out of line of sight and much better anti heavy infantry . wiped out a squad of five terminators with one manticore. not something even possible with a neutronager. the baneblade proved surprisingly a good replacement for the kastellans with its 10 heavy bolters. are they as good as 4 or 6 kastelans deluge of shots? no but they dot he job and the baneblade battlecannon and demolisher pull heavy anti tank duty. and the 4 point cannon fodder are extremely useful. RIP admech RIP

Well comparing those two is a little bit weird imo. The manticore is an artillery and sacrifices mobility and durability compared to the Crawler, which is more of a Battletank.
I play a lots of Guard myself and when you start to encounter -1 to hit armies guard artillery really starts to fall of quite rapidly.
Regarding the wider choice of targets you are definitely right, the Neutronager has a really small selection of optimal targets.

Also I don't like the Baneblade. Sure it can deal tons of damage, but remember it's just 3+. So it won't get any or just a 6+ save against dedicated anti tank weaponry.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
What's your take on the Eversor Assassin guys?

i was actually playing an alpha legion player. -1 to hit armies have a achillies heel in guard, it's called Cadia and the Overlapping fields of fire strategem

gendoikari87 wrote:
i was actually playing an alpha legion player. -1 to hit armies have a achillies heel in guard, it's called Cadia and the Overlapping fields of fire strategem

2CP is a really heavy price to pay to kill one unit of something Alpha Legion.

It also just works on a single unit, so your lascannons have to shoot at the same target as your HBs.


Rule question regarding the inclusion of Infiltrators:
Atm I have 3 detachments in my list: Lucius spearhead, Cadian battalion and Imperial soup battalion.
If I include a unit of infiltrators to the soup battalion can I use the Wrath of Mars stratagem on them? (I know that canticles won't work)

 lash92 wrote:
It also just works on a single unit, so your lascannons have to shoot at the same target as your HBs.


Rule question regarding the inclusion of Infiltrators:
Atm I have 3 detachments in my list: Lucius spearhead, Cadian battalion and Imperial soup battalion.
If I include a unit of infiltrators to the soup battalion can I use the Wrath of Mars stratagem on them? (I know that canticles won't work)

Yes. Canticles require every unit in a detachment to have Canticles. Dogmas require every unit in a detachment to have the same Forge World. Stratagems require you to have a detachment of AdMech that is not an Auxiliary detachment. Note that you do NOT need a detachment from a Forge World to use a Forge World's stratagem, so if you bring a Mars Spearhead and Stygies Auxiliary, you can still use the Stygies stratagems.

That being said, Wrath of Mars on Infiltrators is ballsy, given how close you need to be and how you probably won't get any rerolls...

Ok thanks.
Well with the Protector Doctrina Imperative Stratagem you really don´t need rerolls, cause you will be hitting on 2+. Sure rerolling 1´s would help, but I´m not quite sure if I want to include the infiltrators to my Lucius detachment, cause I would lose their dogma. (granted it´s not the best one, but it might help, especially my deepstriking Vanguard).
Plus it´s as far as i know the only really good way of spamming some mortal wounds if you aren´t running Cawl + Dakkabots.


So guys what do you think of my semi-competitive take on the imperial soup. (I´m working with the models I have atm and I´m reluctant to use Cawl ^^)


#Cadian Battallion
- 2 Company Commander (5+/5+ CP regain)
- 3 x Infantry Squad with Lascanon and Plasma
- 2 x Heavy Weapon Squad with mortars


# Soup Battallion
- Celestine with 2x Geminae
- Primaris Psyker
- 3 x 5 Scouts
- Culexus Assassin
- 10 Mars Infiltrators (might wander into the Lucius Spearhead)


# Lucius Spearhead
- TPD
- 2x Neutron Onager
- 1x Icarus Onager
- 2 x 10 Vanguard without upgrades (yet)


That leaves me with about 200 points more to spend, which I could use for:

- another Vanguard squad (maybe also add some plasma dudes)
- more Guardsman
- some Eversor Assassins?

So yeah, what do you think?

LegioX217 wrote:
Man, if there was one determining factor that impacted my lack of motivation to paint my ad mech, it would be this thread. Kind of sad :( Went from theorycrafting and following this tactics thread to looking at other armies entirely...

My initial plans were not even close to what seems possible, with 10 man vanguard squads from 3 start collecting sets. I don’t play competitively by the damage might already be done LOL

Don't worry, if you dont play in tournaments and just play with friends or a local group, most of the doom and gloom in this thread is over hyped. They're not wrong, but for the most part these scenarios assume the participants dont care whether each other has a good time or not. I really have to try hard to remembering that most of the people I play with may implement aspects of these heavily competitive lists, but they generally find the full blown versions tedious and very dry.

It's REALLY difficult to get some advice from this thread where you actually want to field something cool AND competitive. Which is frustrating for the minority of non tourney people trying to determine where they want to take their army next. Again, all the stuff they say is right, but the context they're applying it to isnt as prevalent outside of tournaments as they might have you think. You only have to go through the batrep videos on Youtube to see that most of those games are very far from competitive by tournament standards.

You just have to try and combine the advice with your desire for a cool army and temper it with some tournament tricks to give you an edge

I'm getting me some stick priests next to give me some melee oomph, and i may consider trying to infiltrate some fistellans to put the cat amongst the pidgins lol

Why don't you try having fun vs all armies loosing badly in every single friendly game. You know how to write firendly games and fun but I don't see anyone having fun loosing game after game. Nor anyone coming here to get advice on bad strategies.

We are gloomy cause we where saying 200 times about the issues ad mech has from the disigners and codex just to see them fixed on all other armies than us. From new units to revamping old ones to codex faq etc. Ad mech had a nice point decrease and that's it.

Anything with a decent melee unit able to run charge in one round not having to walk the table destroyed you army now days.
If you like it and have fun with it then just write about it.

 lash92 wrote:
Ok thanks.
Well with the Protector Doctrina Imperative Stratagem you really don´t need rerolls, cause you will be hitting on 2+. Sure rerolling 1´s would help, but I´m not quite sure if I want to include the infiltrators to my Lucius detachment, cause I would lose their dogma. (granted it´s not the best one, but it might help, especially my deepstriking Vanguard).
Plus it´s as far as i know the only really good way of spamming some mortal wounds if you aren´t running Cawl + Dakkabots.


So guys what do you think of my semi-competitive take on the imperial soup. (I´m working with the models I have atm and I´m reluctant to use Cawl ^^)


#Cadian Battallion
- 2 Company Commander (5+/5+ CP regain)
- 3 x Infantry Squad with Lascanon and Plasma
- 2 x Heavy Weapon Squad with mortars


# Soup Battallion
- Celestine with 2x Geminae
- Primaris Psyker
- 3 x 5 Scouts
- Culexus Assassin
- 10 Mars Infiltrators (might wander into the Lucius Spearhead)


# Lucius Spearhead
- TPD
- 2x Neutron Onager
- 1x Icarus Onager
- 2 x 10 Vanguard without upgrades (yet)


That leaves me with about 200 points more to spend, which I could use for:

- another Vanguard squad (maybe also add some plasma dudes)
- more Guardsman
- some Eversor Assassins?

So yeah, what do you think?

I would take mortars and no special weapons on the guardsmen squads. They are 100% going to die first or second turn. You won't get more than 2 shots out of those 20 point lascannons (and movement will kill their utility and guardsmen squads will be expected to move). The mortar has the virtue of being 5 points to deny THE REAPER secondaries and always has useful targets and has more consistent hitting on 5+. Plasma calivers on your lucius squads would more consistently deliver damage than the lascannons (due to possibility of deepstrike). And yes, good job taking the MARS infiltrator bomb. Remember to give them +1 to hit iif you have the CP. If you wanted to shave points then the second geminae isn't super necessary ... but she will really up celestine's durability versus lascannons/d6 damage attacks. Some dark angels guys on the facebook threads were talking up shotguns on their scouts. Consider having 1 shotgun squad so you can have 1 squad that deploys closer to enemy lines.

Agreed with Wulfey. If you bring Guard units, make them cheap with Mortars. I still am not sure if Infiltrators can deliver. So many other things have better charge consistency, melee, and shooting than them.

Shotguns. Hm. interesting. I forgot about those entirely, and conceptually, they make sense, albeit grim. (No need for knives because they won't live for more than one turn anyway!)

Plus, the conversion opportunity would be nice. I could make some cut up some Galvanic Rifles and make some interesting neo-barbarian Martian shotguns. Stick em on Skitarii Vanguard, paint the robes gunmetal black, and call them my Scout Marines. Hope nobody gives me crap for not having pauldrons or visible Bolt Pistols...

Okay I understand that you want your Guard to be cheap, but why just don´t give them a Plasma Gun instead of a Mortar? It´s 7 vs 5 points, but you can fire on the move without penalty.

Regarding Infiltrators: I haven´t tested them yet, it´s more of a theorycrafting thing and I will have to about 2 weeks before my next game... But if you can provide me another option (excluding Cawl + bots) to deal with high invulns (looking at you Magnus) I would gladly listen.


So if I strip the Guardsman of upgrades and add Plasma to my Vanguard I still have about 200 points to spend....
So what would you add?
- more Guard bodies
- more melee power in form of assassins
- or another vanguard squad (but without plasma, because I haven´t got that many plasma dudes...)

Neutronagers are never a waste of points. They have ways of finding a good target and they draw fire like crazy. They feel inconsistent individually, but as a team of 3 they get consistent results.

EDIT: neutronagers get more respect from non-admech players than they should. People consistently try to kill them over the robots ... which is odd.

Wulfey wrote:
Neutronagers are never a waste of points. They have ways of finding a good target and they draw fire like crazy. They feel inconsistent individually, but as a team of 3 they get consistent results.

EDIT: neutronagers get more respect from non-admech players than they should. People consistently try to kill them over the robots ... which is odd.

In my local games people completely ignore robots first turn because theyre too hard to hit/kill compared to the rest of the army, if you dont go first that is. T7, 6 wounds, 1+/4++ saves, reflectable mortal wounds and, if youre running them stygies, -1 to hit as well. With them under aegis protocols there are just so many easier targets until theyre in full dakka mode. Plus they know if they can get rid of any screen you have or sneak flyers in or whatever they can be tied up in combat easier than they can be shot off the board.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hmmm i was just reading the wording for shroudpsalm and something occured to me: RAW shroudpsalm gives you your cover save in melee as well:

Affected units gain the bonus to their armour saving throws as if they were in cover. Units already in cover are unaffected.

Bold emphasis is mine. As if they were in cover. It doesnt say they get a cover save, it says they get the bonus as if they were in cover. They get a bonus to saving throws, not a cover save. Am I reading too much into this?

I think you are Because Cover just affects saves against shooting attacks.

 lash92 wrote:
Okay I understand that you want your Guard to be cheap, but why just don´t give them a Plasma Gun instead of a Mortar? It´s 7 vs 5 points, but you can fire on the move without penalty.

Regarding Infiltrators: I haven´t tested them yet, it´s more of a theorycrafting thing and I will have to about 2 weeks before my next game... But if you can provide me another option (excluding Cawl + bots) to deal with high invulns (looking at you Magnus) I would gladly listen.

So if I strip the Guardsman of upgrades and add Plasma to my Vanguard I still have about 200 points to spend....
So what would you add?
- more Guard bodies
- more melee power in form of assassins
- or another vanguard squad (but without plasma, because I haven´t got that many plasma dudes...)

My Cadian Guardsmen rarely move; it's sort of the opposite purpose of their function. Hell, most don't ever fire a Lasgun before getting wiped. I guess if you do MT Guardsmen, it's a good tradeoff.

The Stygies list I posted uses 6x Lascannon Ballistarii with PDI and 3x Icarus Crawlers. But Cawlstar is the gold standard for a reason.

I echo Wulfey. Either an Icarus or Neutron Crawler.

Wulfey wrote:
Neutronagers are never a waste of points. They have ways of finding a good target and they draw fire like crazy. They feel inconsistent individually, but as a team of 3 they get consistent results.

EDIT: neutronagers get more respect from non-admech players than they should. People consistently try to kill them over the robots ... which is odd.

WarCon PTSD.

Octovol wrote:

In my local games people completely ignore robots first turn because theyre too hard to hit/kill compared to the rest of the army, if you dont go first that is. T7, 6 wounds, 1+/4++ saves, reflectable mortal wounds and, if youre running them stygies, -1 to hit as well. With them under aegis protocols there are just so many easier targets until theyre in full dakka mode. Plus they know if they can get rid of any screen you have or sneak flyers in or whatever they can be tied up in combat easier than they can be shot off the board.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hmmm i was just reading the wording for shroudpsalm and something occured to me: RAW shroudpsalm gives you your cover save in melee as well:

Affected units gain the bonus to their armour saving throws as if they were in cover. Units already in cover are unaffected.

Bold emphasis is mine. As if they were in cover. It doesnt say they get a cover save, it says they get the bonus as if they were in cover. They get a bonus to saving throws, not a cover save. Am I reading too much into this?

Yeah. In lower point count games, giving up Wrath of Mars for Stygies and a Dominus is a solid option. Hopefully, Cyraxus gives us another HQ option...

You're reading too much into it. Ask yourself: If you were in cover, would you get a bonus to your save in melee?

Ok thanks folks!

So how many of you fine adepts are going to LVO?

Got any finalised lists yet? I have to say despite the occasional doom and gloom I do enjoy the back and forth of tweaking and problem solving.

Good luck to those involved