Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Suzuteo wrote:

 kastelen wrote:

inb4 GW don't give it to admech or they do but our version is gak

With all those AdMech symbols and the Ironstrider legs, if they don't give it to us, I will be so ridiculously mad...

Maybe it'll have transport capacity! )

I'm hoping it has a lot of weapon options. I could see it being 12-14 wounds, T7, 3+/5++ but yeah, the big question is questor or imperial knight (or both) it's definitely not going to have admech keyword imo. They even announce it as an imperial knight.

Just posted about this in News and Rumours actually

Come on then let's speculate on the stats for this thing...

I'm thinking it's got to occupy a niche between the Kastelan Robots (110 pts T7 6W 3+/5++) and the knight.

I'd guess 100pts for the chassis with no weapons, probably 200-250 depending on loadout.

Move... Anything between 10" or 14". Hopefully 14" to give them a nice ability to zip round the board. With low model count you need mobility.

3+ / 3+ to hit seems set in stone

S8 and T8 I would assume. If they make it S7 or T7 it will be awful.

At least 12 wounds... I'd guess around 14... half a knight.

3+ save is obvious, however... I can't see an ion shield on the model so I am thinking there will be no invulnerable save. Which might actually make them easier to kill than Kastelan Robots. Maybe it will have closer to 18 wounds to make up for this.

The biggest question for me is whether they will retain TITANIC keyword giving them no penalties to hit with heavy weapons and the ability to walk out of combat over enemy models, then still shoot and charge again. They have to surely otherwise they will be rubbish.

So basically my carefully crafted but ultimately predictable opinion is that they will be almost exactly half a knight for half the points. Maybe with additional wounds to make up for the lack of an invuln.

I also made a post about it in that section. To the guy who was going to kitbash it from sentinels, I'm fairly sure this guy is quite a bit larger than that.

I made an estimate comparison in size compared to a normal Imperial Knight. From one of the pictures the Armiger has a heavy phosphor blaster as a carapace weapon. Though as far as I know, there's no such picture in full profile so this is very much a rough estimate. From that picture I'd say it's around 13-13.5cm tall (5.1-5.3 inch) so I made a rough mock up how large it would be next to the knight.

Suzuteo wrote:

Ideasweasel wrote:
Has that not been FAQ’D Suzuteo? Haha be funny if someone used that in a Tournament setting.

Ahh getting older bud, the responsibilities do creep up on a man eh

No, it has never been FAQed. So every phase, you can make those Kastelans shoot for 1 CP without night penalties.

Anyhow, my attempts to work Scouts in resulted in this monstrosity:

Spoiler:

Imperium Battalion Detachment - 225

HQ - 60
1x Company Commander - Lasgun, Chainsword, Warlord: Grand Strategist
1x Company Commander - Lasgun, Chainsword, Kurov's Aquila

Troop - 165
5x Space Marine Scout - Astartes Shotgun, Bolt Pistol
5x Space Marine Scout - Astartes Shotgun, Bolt Pistol
5x Space Marine Scout - Astartes Shotgun, Bolt Pistol

Cadian Spearhead Detachment - 452

HQ - 46
1x Primaris Psyker

Troop - 82
10x Infantry - 9x Lasgun, Boltgun, Chainsword
10x Infantry - 9x Lasgun, Boltgun, Chainsword

Heavy Support - 324
1x Basilisk - Earthshaker Cannon, Heavy Bolter
1x Basilisk - Earthshaker Cannon, Heavy Bolter
1x Basilisk - Earthshaker Cannon, Heavy Bolter

Mars Spearhead Detachment - 1322

HQ - 240
1x Belisarius Cawl

Heavy Support - 810
1x Onager Dunecrawler - Icarus Array, Broad-Spectrum Data Tether
1x Onager Dunecrawler - Icarus Array, Broad-Spectrum Data Tether
5x Kastelan Robots - 3x Heavy Phosphor Blasters

Fast Attack - 272
4x Sydonian Dragoon - Taser Lance

Total: 1999 points
8 Command Points

The HQs are split up this way for WYSIWYG purposes. Company Commanders don't really need rerolls anyway. But I guess now they can give each other orders, which sounds hilarious. I decided not to drop Dragoons because we still need something to grab objectives, and 92 points for another 2 CP seems a bit greedy.

EDIT: Adding error sigh.

I really like the look of this list. I remember your mechanised one a while back that had all the crawlers and dragoons.

I just play casual but got shredded by a tau player yesterday. Quite fancy slotting a knight into a list. I know it’s not competitive but that’s ok. Fun is the aim for me.

I quite like command points. If you were crazy enough to drop something to accommodate a knight, what would you drop? Bearing in mind it’s mainly for fun but wanting a chance to win.

Cheers

Not sure I like the new Knight. Waiting for more images. Looks very AdMech though, so I guess that is good. A shame we have zero incentive to run Knights of any variety.

This thing will need to be stupid cheap to see much play and honestly, seeing how far Knights have fallen in play, I don't see it happening.

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:
Not sure I like the new Knight. Waiting for more images. Looks very AdMech though, so I guess that is good. A shame we have zero incentive to run Knights of any variety.

This thing will need to be stupid cheap to see much play and honestly, seeing how far Knights have fallen in play, I don't see it happening.

Depends on the role for me. If it has all the benefits of a Fistellan and a Dakkastellan in one then 250 points would seem reasonable. But if it's a Heavy slot...it has stiff competition.

I love the new Knight, but I am fairly certain it is for Knight players and not Mechanicus players.

It's an attempt to give IK players a cheap, supporty unit that still fits the LoW theme, at least that's how it strikes me.

Yeah, even though it looks quite admech it'll probably be Questor Mechanicus. If it has the admech keyword then I can't expect it to be anywhere near a knight in stats.

They look like dread equivalents. Multimelta, CCW and what is probably a heavy phosphor blaster.

If they are purely for IK I would imagine they would have to be something like a Heavy Support or Elite choice. This doesnt actually fit well into the IK force org bc as is their entire army is LoWs so you are not going to be building anything other than Super Heavy detachments. I can see an option to upgrade a knight to a Baron, giving him 2+ 2+, but you are still missing troops and HQs, unless there is some special rule that pure Knight lists make knights not LoW. Best option would be to incorporate the Secutarii, but they have a kit already with FW.

For Admech, unless they have the <Forgeworld> Keyword and are Fast attack options I dont see them having a use. Our Heavy and Elite slots are already bloated.

OOrrrrr....

it's what it says on the tin, a light knight.

A Lord of War, 16-18 wounds, 3+ save, 12-14" move, good guns.

Knights are 500 ish points. Surely you can conceive of a 300-ish point Lord of War that comes up to its waist?

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
OOrrrrr....

it's what it says on the tin, a light knight.

A Lord of War, 16-18 wounds, 3+ save, 12-14" move, good guns.

Knights are 500 ish points. Surely you can conceive of a 300-ish point Lord of War that comes up to its waist?

This is what I am expecting. With a 6+ invuln. Guessing 325pt and not worth it. But I am extremely salty.

On an aside, Tau Codex announced imminent - that means Fires should be soon, right?

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
OOrrrrr....

it's what it says on the tin, a light knight.

A Lord of War, 16-18 wounds, 3+ save, 12-14" move, good guns.

Knights are 500 ish points. Surely you can conceive of a 300-ish point Lord of War that comes up to its waist?

This is what I am expecting. With a 6+ invuln. Guessing 325pt and not worth it. But I am extremely salty.

On an aside, Tau Codex announced imminent - that means Fires should be soon, right?

You don't think that'd be worth it?

300-odd points for Land Raider-style durability and Knight guns & CC with a faster move?

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
OOrrrrr....

it's what it says on the tin, a light knight.

A Lord of War, 16-18 wounds, 3+ save, 12-14" move, good guns.

Knights are 500 ish points. Surely you can conceive of a 300-ish point Lord of War that comes up to its waist?

This is what I am expecting. With a 6+ invuln. Guessing 325pt and not worth it. But I am extremely salty.

On an aside, Tau Codex announced imminent - that means Fires should be soon, right?

You don't think that'd be worth it?

300-odd points for Land Raider-style durability and Knight guns & CC with a faster move?

They won't be Knight guns. Looks like a Multimelta and a Heavy Phosphor. Not horribly impressed by that. We'll see though - it may surprise me. At the least, I will likely run a few just for fun with my other Knights.

Could do a kangaroo style pouch at the front and bung some electro staff priests in the middle. The transport we’ve all been waiting for

Robo-Roo battle unit!

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
OOrrrrr....

it's what it says on the tin, a light knight.

A Lord of War, 16-18 wounds, 3+ save, 12-14" move, good guns.

Knights are 500 ish points. Surely you can conceive of a 300-ish point Lord of War that comes up to its waist?

This is what I am expecting. With a 6+ invuln. Guessing 325pt and not worth it. But I am extremely salty.

On an aside, Tau Codex announced imminent - that means Fires should be soon, right?

You don't think that'd be worth it?

300-odd points for Land Raider-style durability and Knight guns & CC with a faster move?

They won't be Knight guns. Looks like a Multimelta and a Heavy Phosphor. Not horribly impressed by that. We'll see though - it may surprise me. At the least, I will likely run a few just for fun with my other Knights.

I'm expecting it to be essentially a far less durable knight but with similar guns.

And I think what the guns are depends on what size it is. I would say that it looks to be maybe midway-up the knight's chest, with the head just above the top of a Kastellan Robot.

That means the guns are a good half-again as large or larger than a multi-melta and phosphor blaster.

I watched the video again and I do think they may be considerably larger than I was initially thinking. I noticed the little triangle hazard decals on the front and on the blade which are Admech decals. They are roughly 3mm a side which gives you an idea.

Doesn't really seem to fit the "release the hounds" fluff if they are just slightly worst knights though.

Whether they are garbage or good will probably come down to Strategems.

I will reserve judgement, but overall a very meh release.

No, I actually think they'll be really awesome...

... for knight armies.

Knight armies need cheap, fast support. They have heavy knights (porphyrion), medium knights (questoris) and even medium-heavy knights (cerastus)

But those are all very expensive.

Something 200 points cheaper, that's certainly worse, is something they absolutely need, as long as it's fairly fast.

Knights already move 12' though, they are not that slow. There are Forgeworld knights that are even faster.

When I think of support I think of units that either buff the primary unit or cover a weakness of the primary unit. I dont think these mini knights provide either. Really the only support they are providing are additional targets to draw fire.

True support would be something like Secutarii to provide cover bonuses like thier old rules, or screens, or repairs, or fast obsec units.

I feel like the model was designed by the marketing team...

I'm with MNOP, I just don't see the dakka right now. I hope there are more armament options that they aren't showing right now. I want to see double cannon options instead of the same old gun + buzz saw.

Ideasweasel wrote:

I just play casual but got shredded by a tau player yesterday. Quite fancy slotting a knight into a list. I know it’s not competitive but that’s ok. Fun is the aim for me.

I quite like command points. If you were crazy enough to drop something to accommodate a knight, what would you drop? Bearing in mind it’s mainly for fun but wanting a chance to win.

Cheers

I feel that if you're going Knights, you don't bring one. You're missing out on so many bonuses. You bring three.



But if you want one Knight, I would condense down to one Battalion to make room for the SH detachment. I also would cut Dragoons because a Knight serves a similar purpose, and a Basilisk because it's a unit of non-AdMech shooting. The key is to preserve your core really well.

So maybe this?

Wow GW is good at releasing models nobody asked for these days. Custodes, a new Knight ? Hope our transport is coming along the way, and a plastic one if there is a god.

You know there's a problem when every other imperial faction is trying to find some way to slot in an Imperial Guard detachment no matter what faction they play. Fething disgusting state of affairs.

Suzuteo wrote:

Ideasweasel wrote:

I just play casual but got shredded by a tau player yesterday. Quite fancy slotting a knight into a list. I know it’s not competitive but that’s ok. Fun is the aim for me.

I quite like command points. If you were crazy enough to drop something to accommodate a knight, what would you drop? Bearing in mind it’s mainly for fun but wanting a chance to win.

Cheers

I feel that if you're going Knights, you don't bring one. You're missing out on so many bonuses. You bring three.

Spoiler:

Cadian Supreme Command Detachment - 124

HQ - 124
1x Company Commander - Lasgun, Chainsword, Warlord: Grand Strategist, Kurov's Aquila


1x Tech-Priest Enginseer - Forge World: Stygies VIII
1x Tech-Priest Enginseer - Forge World: Stygies VIII

Stygies VIII Auxiliary Detachment - 340

Fast Attack - 340
5x Sydonian Dragoon - Taser Lance

Super-Heavy Detachment - 1536

Lord of War - 512
Knight Crusader - Titanic Feet, Avenger Gatling Cannon, Heavy Flamer, Thermal Cannon, Heavy Stubber

Lord of War - 512
Knight Crusader - Titanic Feet, Avenger Gatling Cannon, Heavy Flamer, Thermal Cannon, Heavy Stubber

Lord of War - 512
Knight Crusader - Titanic Feet, Avenger Gatling Cannon, Heavy Flamer, Thermal Cannon, Heavy Stubber

Total: 2000 points
6 Command Points

But if you want one Knight, I would condense down to one Battalion to make room for the SH detachment. I also would cut Dragoons because a Knight serves a similar purpose, and a Basilisk because it's a unit of non-AdMech shooting. The key is to preserve your core really well.

So maybe this?

Spoiler:

Cadian Battalion Detachment - 399

HQ - 60
1x Company Commander - Lasgun, Chainsword, Warlord: Grand Strategist
1x Company Commander - Lasgun, Chainsword, Kurov's Aquila

Troop - 123
10x Infantry - 9x Lasgun, Boltgun, Chainsword
10x Infantry - 9x Lasgun, Boltgun, Chainsword
10x Infantry - 9x Lasgun, Boltgun, Chainsword

Heavy Support - 216
1x Basilisk - Earthshaker Cannon, Heavy Bolter
1x Basilisk - Earthshaker Cannon, Heavy Bolter

Mars Spearhead Detachment - 1070

HQ - 240
1x Belisarius Cawl

Heavy Support - 830
1x Onager Dunecrawler - Neutron Laser, Broad-Spectrum Data Tether
1x Onager Dunecrawler - Neutron Laser, Broad-Spectrum Data Tether
5x Kastelan Robots - 3x Heavy Phosphor Blasters

Auxiliary Super-Heavy Detachment - 512

Lord of War - 512
Knight Crusader - Titanic Feet, Avenger Gatling Cannon, Heavy Flamer, Thermal Cannon, Heavy Stubber

Total: 1981 points
7 Command Points

Cheers mate, thanks for the advice. I guess another alternative is to try and convince people to play a 2500 game and bring in an LOW. I’m still collecting models at the moment. Not long back into 40k. Only got about 750 points of Admech and a knight.

 ultimentra wrote:
You know there's a problem when every other imperial faction is trying to find some way to slot in an Imperial Guard detachment no matter what faction they play. Fething disgusting state of affairs.

Yep, and the worst is that I believe Astra Militarum codex is fine (because balanced within itself), and the problem is that other codices are just wrong. Shouldn't Astra Militarum be all about a Jack-of-all-trades, being able to do everything cheaply, but with average efficiency ? For now they have better artillery (and way more options due to the age of the army) than us because of its sheer cheapness. Leman Russes are extremely resilient, T8 makes a world of difference with T7 when getting shot at with Hurricane Bolters or Autocannons, and while the Battle Cannon deals random damage, it can shoot twice when moving slowly and at a way greater range than our Onagers. They have a great mobility too even with their basic infantry, and cheap access to mortal wounds with Psykers, but I'll end my rant here.

Anyway, on the topic of AdMech effectiveness, I got to try a Cawl + 5 Kastelans combo against a game at my LGS recently, I played this because my opponent wanted to try out a tourney list so I borrowed 3 Kastelans to make a pure AdMech force. Unfortunately he forgot his army at home and so played with the Dark Angels he had in the shop, a good list but damn Kastelans are scary. He played Azrael, 10 Hellblasters, 3x5 Scout Snipers, Belial, DW Ancient, 10 DW Knights and 10 DW Termies. I had Cawl, 1 Enginseer, 5 Kastelans, 3 Destroyers (Plasma), 5 Rangers with Arquebuses, 5 Rangers, 3x5 Vanguards, 3 Dragoons (in one unit), 5 Infiltrators 2 Neutronagers, 5 Fulgurites (don't judge me I only have five of them).

I screened best as I could Cawl's Robots, placed the Destroyers in range for Elimination Volley, and the Dunecrawlers close by for the reroll save and hits. My Fulgurites were hiding to prepare for a counter-charge, and the Dragoons were on my flank. He got first turn and dropped all his termies the closest he could to my Kastelans and focused all fire on the Destroyers, killing them all, but he used like 4 CP in one turn. Luckily for me he failed his charges (even with rerolls from Master of Manoeuver) so in my turn, I plant the Bots, pop Wrath of Mars and proceed to wipe the 10 Knights in one go. Satisfying. In the following turns he manages to engage the Bots, kill 5 Vanguards in the process and so I counter-charge with Cawl, the Enginseer, the Datasmith and the Dragoons. He doesn't survive this cyborg rage and next turn was mostly safe for me, I wiped the rest of the Hellblasters with the 4 remaining Bots (4 of them died of overheat) and in the end all my Dragoons died but he only had Azrael left on the field. We were playing Maelstrom and he almost won on points, I still got 8-6. I almost never get good Objective Cards it's frightening.

Wrath of Mars wasn't very useful this time, on my use on the Knights it only dealt 6 MW while the regular dakka was already overwhelming. And they have 3+ saves ! Not enough to deal with 90 shots though. I think I'll keep this list (maybe with a few changes) for particularly hard opponents and lists, but honestly its a pain for both of us to roll 90 dice, and it's not very fun to be so static. That's why I'll always include my 3 Dragoons to have some front action, they're always effective, even though they rarely survive. I'm thinking about using Cawl with other units, he's quite powerful himself and the aura could prove great with even basic Skitarii to form a slowly moving fire line to be able to put more pressure on my opponent.

Cheers for the match report. I enjoy reading these.

Maxwell Hill won his first 3 LVO games making him the top AdMech player at the end of Day 1 with this army.

 axisofentropy wrote:
Maxwell Hill won his first 3 LVO games making him the top AdMech player at the end of Day 1 with this army.

Wait what, a Vanguard Detachment with 6 Heavy Support choices ? I'll just assume he doesn't write very well since the orthograph of some entries but whatever. I wonder what lists he faced, he doesn't have much anti-horde, have the meta shifted or did he just get lucky ? Did he screen with Infiltrators ? I wouldn't use 10 Vanguards, especially with the 3 Plasmas, to fill that role. Really confusing.

It's a legal list if you just make the onager detachment a spearhead so I'm just gonna assume it was a silly mistake.

I'd love to see him summarize what the army is supposed to do and how it works in play because I'm definitely not seeing it... Seems like it'd get wrecked hard by chaos daemons and tyranid lists.

Wow. Six Crawler list. I haven't seem that in awhile. Surprised it's not 4 Neutron to 2 Icarus. And Power Sword Infiltrators?!

Plasma Vanguard are surprisingly good, so I believe that.

But where is the anti-horde? Did this guy just luck out and run into Smurfs three games in a row or something?

EDIT: Apparently, his matchups were: AdMech, Death Guard, Necrons, Grey Knights. So nothing super competitive yet.

 Aaranis wrote:
I wonder what lists he faced, he doesn't have much anti-horde, have the meta shifted or did he just get lucky ?

there's always lots of luck involved. He beat another AdMech, Death Guard, and Necrons. There's at least 3 more games tomorrow so another AdMech player could certainly overtake him.