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This post contains a lot of salt and possibly bad English.

My so-called "Friends" still cant understand how Elysian "Move and Fire!" order works.

The wording is: "any INFANTRY models in the ordered unit count their weapons as being Assault weapons until the end of the turn"

The problem itself is the word "Count". They dont beliave me, that the order essentialy replace each and every weapon type with "Assault" even for grenades. Instead they are saying that "You just COUNT your weapons as an Assault weapon, they are NOT ASSAULT ITSELF"

I am running out of arguments as non English speaker, so i am asking DakkaDakka for help.

I need some proof or even witness, as Forge World clarification, how order works, or, i dunno, some lunguistic English rule, that can explain them, how "Move and Fire" wording works.

P.S. I even tryed to compare this order with Black Legion's Legion Trait, with the wording "You TREAT your Rapid fire weapons as Assault e.g. Rapid fire TREATED Assault" but they complained, that its GW book, not Forge World one.

Help me.

A good question. Im going to say that they mean any weapon you can shoot. So you can Move, advance, and shoot. Like one grenade tossed is going to make a difference. Unless people interpret it as now its not a grenade and want 10 guys to throw 10 grenades.

10xd6 hitting on 5's, wounding on 5's ... It is scary

Ask them what effect THEY think the order has then.

Counting weapons as Assault means you can Advance and fire with a -1 to hit with any weapon they carry, not just those that have the Assault type on their profile. Standard guns with no type, Heavy, Rapid Fire, Pistol, Grenade... they would all be treated as Assault until the end of your turn.

Presumably what the OP wants to do is have their grenades become assault weapons so that the rule about only one model being able to throw a grenade doesn't do anything. Then every model can shoot a krak grenade.

I think this is clearly allowed, RAW, but it seems pretty obviously unintended and so it's hard to be too upset about people refusing to play that way.

Dionysodorus wrote:
Presumably what the OP wants to do is have their grenades become assault weapons so that the rule about only one model being able to throw a grenade doesn't do anything. Then every model can shoot a krak grenade.

I think this is clearly allowed, RAW, but it seems pretty obviously unintended and so it's hard to be too upset about people refusing to play that way.

Ahhh would help if that was specified, as so far the query is pretty straightforward.

I agree with your interpretation. It doesn't seem much different to the Death Guard stratagems tbh so may be intended.

I am asking this, coz i need clear answer. A month ago everyone were saying, that "Order makes all your weapon assault, discussion over". Even on 1d4chan it is stated the way i think. But now again everyone have their own opinion... so i am asking for evidence, not another opinion, if possible.

Also, then you do the math - its not THAT gamebreaking...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And actually, yes... we arlready have 2 armies from GW, that can throw all their grenades in one turn (Vanilla AM and Death Guard)

The rule is clear. What more than that would persuade your friends? I don't think random opinions on the internet will sway them. You'll either need to persuade them or 4+ it if they refuse to agree. We can't offer anything beyond the rule itself and our interpretations.

I don't see what ground they have for saying it doesn't apply. Their counter argument above is nonsense, just meaning "I don't want this to be true".

 JohnnyHell wrote:
The rule is clear. What more than that would persuade your friends? I don't think random opinions on the internet will sway them. You'll either need to persuade them or 4+ it if they refuse to agree. We can't offer anything beyond the rule itself and our interpretations.

I don't see what ground they have for saying it doesn't apply. Their counter argument above is nonsense, just meaning "I don't want this to be true".

Im short - they storngly follow the opinion you said before "Counting for the purpose of shooting after moving, and that's it" but it in that case Forge World could wrote "you count your weapons as Assault for the purpose of moving etc" or something like this...

That's why i asking for some linquistic rule (Maybe its American English vs Britain English problem) or Forge World Clarification (Someone, not so long ago, said that he have confirmed that "Count as" = "replace" via Forge World e-mail. But i cant find this anywhere.

"Counts-as" for all intents and porposes = "is".

Now for what exactly the order is trying to say...

The order does not tell you to change the weapon's type, nor does it tell us to keep the number of shots.

So we are left with 2 options of reading the "counts-as":

1) "...in addition to its normal type.": which would keep pistol's shooting within 1" and 1/squad gredades, along with the number of shots.

Or

2) The weapon becomes fully Assault with no indication of number of shots: which means you can throw all of the grenades but you cannot actually make any attacks because the weapons are simply "assault" not "assault 1" or "assault d6".

Personally; I would go with number 1.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
"Counts-as" for all intents and porposes = "is".

Now for what exactly the order is trying to say...

The order does not tell you to change the weapon's type, nor does it tell us to keep the number of shots.

So we are left with 2 options of reading the "counts-as":

1) "...in addition to its normal type.": which would keep pistol's shooting within 1" and 1/squad gredades, along with the number of shots.

Or

2) The weapon becomes fully Assault with no indication of number of shots: which means you can throw all of the grenades but you cannot actually make any attacks because the weapons are simply "assault" not "assault 1" or "assault d6".

Personally; I would go with number 1.

This is an absurdly implausible reading of the rules. Literally nowhere else in the game do we see profiles with multiple types. Your reason for dismissing the obvious interpretation -- that we treat a weapon as if it said "Assault" instead of, e.g., "Rapid Fire" -- is that you pretend that you can't figure out how many shots it would get. I suspect you are literally the only person playing the game who has this problem. You will note that Games Workshop has even said that treating a weapon as an Assault weapon preserves the number of shots it gets -- the Black Legion trait allows a unit to "treat all its Rapid Fire weapons as Assault weapons until the end of the turn", and then goes on to parenthetically explain that this would mean a Rapid Fire 2 weapon is treated as an Assault 2 weapon, because duh. But I'm struggling to even understand why you'd think you need to be told to keep the number of shots. The number of shots a weapon gets is not part of its type. Like, are you also confused as to the strength and AP of the shots?

It would also change all their melee weapons, if they have any, to type assault meaning they can't be used in close combat- if it changes the type.

As the poorly written FW writing says weapins, not ranged weapons.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
"Counts-as" for all intents and porposes = "is".

Now for what exactly the order is trying to say...

The order does not tell you to change the weapon's type, nor does it tell us to keep the number of shots.

So we are left with 2 options of reading the "counts-as":

1) "...in addition to its normal type.": which would keep pistol's shooting within 1" and 1/squad gredades, along with the number of shots.

Or

2) The weapon becomes fully Assault with no indication of number of shots: which means you can throw all of the grenades but you cannot actually make any attacks because the weapons are simply "assault" not "assault 1" or "assault d6".

Personally; I would go with number 1.

Nothing logically tells you to throw away the number of shots. Your options are incorrect.

 JohnnyHell wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
"Counts-as" for all intents and porposes = "is".

Now for what exactly the order is trying to say...

The order does not tell you to change the weapon's type, nor does it tell us to keep the number of shots.

So we are left with 2 options of reading the "counts-as":

1) "...in addition to its normal type.": which would keep pistol's shooting within 1" and 1/squad gredades, along with the number of shots.

Or

2) The weapon becomes fully Assault with no indication of number of shots: which means you can throw all of the grenades but you cannot actually make any attacks because the weapons are simply "assault" not "assault 1" or "assault d6".

Personally; I would go with number 1.

Nothing logically tells you to throw away the number of shots. Your options are incorrect.

Though if you change a rapid fire weapon to an assault weapon, you lose the ability to get double shots at half range.

 doctortom wrote:
Though if you change a rapid fire weapon to an assault weapon, you lose the ability to get double shots at half range.

Do you? I mean, do you change the weapon's type to Assault, or is it treated as Assault in addition to its regular type? That's kind of the crux of the question here.

They are not wrong, count as does not change what the object is... that is logical, as we wouldn't have to treat X as Y if X was already Y....
What they are failing to account for is how the Game handles 'counts as' situations: The only way to resolve a situation with 'count as X' instruction is to... well, resolve the situation as if Y was X!

This is a situation where the Authors chose some very, very, very poor wording as they really should have had a limitation that we only count these weapons as Assault for the purpose of Firing weapons after Advancing.
Which, lets face it, is very poorly worded in and of itself anyway... so no surprise this adjustment makes it a little worse!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Octopoid,
If you fire the weapon using the Type: Rapid Fire rule, have you treated the weapon as if it was an Type:assault weapon?

 doctortom wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
"Counts-as" for all intents and porposes = "is".

Now for what exactly the order is trying to say...

The order does not tell you to change the weapon's type, nor does it tell us to keep the number of shots.

So we are left with 2 options of reading the "counts-as":

1) "...in addition to its normal type.": which would keep pistol's shooting within 1" and 1/squad gredades, along with the number of shots.

Or

2) The weapon becomes fully Assault with no indication of number of shots: which means you can throw all of the grenades but you cannot actually make any attacks because the weapons are simply "assault" not "assault 1" or "assault d6".

Personally; I would go with number 1.

Nothing logically tells you to throw away the number of shots. Your options are incorrect.

Though if you change a rapid fire weapon to an assault weapon, you lose the ability to get double shots at half range.

Absolutely. But that wasn't what I was referring to - it doesn't mean the base shots change. If a weapon was Rapid Fire 2 it logically becomes Assault 2, not Assault Oh My God The Rules Don't Work, as is being posited. It also means most Grenades get tasty at Assault D6.


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 Octopoid wrote:

 doctortom wrote:
Though if you change a rapid fire weapon to an assault weapon, you lose the ability to get double shots at half range.

Do you? I mean, do you change the weapon's type to Assault, or is it treated as Assault in addition to its regular type? That's kind of the crux of the question here.

You change it. It counts as Assault, not what it was.

 JinxDragon wrote:
They are not wrong, count as does not change what the object is... that is logical, as we wouldn't have to treat X as Y if X was already Y....
What they are failing to account for is how the Game handles 'counts as' situations: The only way to resolve a situation with 'count as X' instruction is to... well, resolve the situation as if Y was X!

This is a situation where the Authors chose some very, very, very poor wording as they really should have had a limitation that we only count these weapons as Assault for the purpose of Firing weapons after Advancing.
Which, lets face it, is very poorly worded in and of itself anyway... so no surprise this adjustment makes it a little worse!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Octopoid,
If you fire the weapon using the Type: Rapid Fire rule, have you treated the weapon as if it was an Type:assault weapon?

Well, if you've advanced, you have to be treating it as the type Assault Weapon; if you were treating it as Rapid Fire, then you don't get to shoot. So, if you're not treating it as a rapid fire weapon, then you shouldn't expect to get to use the rapid fire rules. It doesn't say that it counts as an Assault weapon in addition to being its normal weapon type.

I want to point out again that the parenthetical explanation of the Black Legion's Trait gives an example of what it means to treat a Rapid Fire weapon as an Assault weapon. You just treat a Rapid Fire 1 weapon as if it were Assault 1.

Dionysodorus wrote:
I want to point out again that the parenthetical explanation of the Black Legion's Trait gives an example of what it means to treat a Rapid Fire weapon as an Assault weapon. You just treat a Rapid Fire 1 weapon as if it were Assault 1.

This.

So, some time ago i got an answer for that question, but since they released new FAQ, i asked again, but the answer is still the same.

Whats your thoughts? Forge World are just potatoes, or something worse?

(Dont mind the date, i am just too lazy to print screen their newest answer)

EricDominus wrote:
Forge World are just potatoes

This is obviously the answer.

GW (including FW) just aren't that good at writing rules in general.

The RAW answer to how this works is, in my opinion, that you treat their weapons as if they were Assault X instead of Grenade X, Rapid Fire X, Pistol X etc. This would mean the whole squad can throw their grenades, their rapid fire weapons always fire the lower number of shots, and their pistols can't be used while within 1" of an enemy. That it makes close combat weapons Assault weapons is obviously an oversight, but hey, that's nothing new.

 Cream Tea wrote:

EricDominus wrote:
Forge World are just potatoes

This is obviously the answer.

GW (including FW) just aren't that good at writing rules in general.

The RAW answer to how this works is, in my opinion, that you treat their weapons as if they were Assault X instead of Grenade X, Rapid Fire X, Pistol X etc. This would mean the whole squad can throw their grenades, their rapid fire weapons always fire the lower number of shots, and their pistols can't be used while within 1" of an enemy. That it makes close combat weapons Assault weapons is obviously an oversight, but hey, that's nothing new.

*Crying Noises*

Thanks for contacting us. We believe the Elysian Move and Fire order was only meant to allow Rapid Fire weapons to be used as Assault weapons rather than all weapons. We have asked our studio to address this in a future fAQ/errata update. (c) Forge World after FAQ.

Sob.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It's just feels so weird... they gave us deep striking army, whose game style (atleast fluff-wise) is go deep into enemy lines, do as painful alfastrike,as possible, grab and hold vital objectives until big guns comes.

The army, in wich each and every unit can equip himself with a pack of krak and frag grenades, but without acess to heavy weapons (mostly). Sounds perfectly fine and fluffy, being able to throw all theirs grenades at once. But no... 1st no doctrines (enjoy your orky BS5+ on yours flayers) and now grenade fun are not allowed.