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Fairly simple question.

A squad of Intercessors has charged in. Can they use their pistols during the fight phase, or do they fight with their base profile, but get to shoot their pistols during their next shooting phase.

I feel like I'm missing something here as I've had the latter argued to me several times

Unless otherwise noted, shooting happens in the Shooting Phase.
Pistols are shot in the Shooting Phase and can be used even when engaged in combat (but still only shoot in the Shooting Phase).

Godeskian wrote:
Fairly simple question.

A squad of Intercessors has charged in. Can they use their pistols during the fight phase, or do they fight with their base profile, but get to shoot their pistols during their next shooting phase.

I feel like I'm missing something here as I've had the latter argued to me several times

The intent (DIRTY WORD ALERT STRANGER DANGER!) is that they use their pistols in the shooting phase to shoot the enemy they are within 1" of.

Basically, the Intercessors shoot their rifles, then charge. During the opponents turn, they only fight with their base attacks. Then, in your next turn, if they somehow are still in combat, they may fire their pistols during the shooting phase, then fight in the fight phase with their base attacks.

RaW it's a broken mess, but you can safely play it normally with no-one caring.

Godeskian wrote:
Fairly simple question.

A squad of Intercessors has charged in. Can they use their pistols during the fight phase, or do they fight with their base profile, but get to shoot their pistols during their next shooting phase.

I feel like I'm missing something here as I've had the latter argued to me several times

It's the latter. Pistols don't get used in the Fight Phase.

This was one of the main changes that were initially praised, yet made no sense to me (the praising, not the rule)

If you logically play out what happens over a combat, Pistols should rarely have any special effect.
Step 1) in your turn you Assault. You have already passed the shooting phase, so your pistols aren't doing anything at this step. Resolve combat
Step 2) in your opponents turn, the opponent either falls back, or you resolve combat. Still no pistol action yet
Step 3) It's your turn again. By now, you are most likely not in combat anymore because a) the opponent fell back, b) your opponent is dead, or c) your unit is dead.
So again, getting to "use your pistol in melee" is not happening.

The likelihood of getting to Step 3 and still being within 1" of an enemy unit is only probable if multiple units are involved, or both units are rather wimpy in melee to begin with.
It is situational at best.

At the end of the day, pistols only serve as a "backup" weapon that you will probably not shoot because you'll want to shoot your main weapons instead.

-

 Galef wrote:
This was one of the main changes that were initially praised, yet made no sense to me (the praising, not the rule)

If you logically play out what happens over a combat, Pistols should rarely have any special effect.
Step 1) in your turn you Assault. You have already passed the shooting phase, so your pistols aren't doing anything at this step. Resolve combat
Step 2) in your opponents turn, the opponent either falls back, or you resolve combat. Still no pistol action yet
Step 3) It's your turn again. By now, you are most likely not in combat anymore because a) the opponent fell back, b) your opponent is dead, or c) your unit is dead.
So again, getting to "use your pistol in melee" is not happening.

The likelihood of getting to Step 3 and still being within 1" of an enemy unit is only probable if multiple units are involved, or both units are rather wimpy in melee to begin with.
It is situational at best.

At the end of the day, pistols only serve as a "backup" weapon that you will probably not shoot because you'll want to shoot your main weapons instead.

-

To be fair, they also let you shoot in step 2 if you're on the receiving end of a charge. So they are actually more useful as defensive weapons in units soaking up a charge rather than offensive weapons.

The purpose of pistols is as a countercharge weapon or as a tool for units who want to stay locked in combat. If you get charged (or charge) you are forced to fall back in order to be able to shoot the NEXT turn. Some units don't want to have to do this and would rather shoot that same turn in addition to getting their melee swings.

It has its uses but only for close combat oriented units or units that are likely to get charged. Also for Noise Marines.

 Galef wrote:
This was one of the main changes that were initially praised, yet made no sense to me (the praising, not the rule)

If you logically play out what happens over a combat, Pistols should rarely have any special effect.
Step 3) It's your turn again. By now, you are most likely not in combat anymore because a) the opponent fell back, b) your opponent is dead, or c) your unit is dead.
So again, getting to "use your pistol in melee" is not happening.

The likelihood of getting to Step 3 and still being within 1" of an enemy unit is only probable if multiple units are involved, or both units are rather wimpy in melee to begin with.
It is situational at best.

At the end of the day, pistols only serve as a "backup" weapon that you will probably not shoot because you'll want to shoot your main weapons instead.

-

Obviously you've not played against large horde armies. Where you'll easily get surrounded by troops and be unable to retreat. So every pistol shot counts.
Also for a lot of units the pistol is the Main Weapon.

 Galef wrote:
This was one of the main changes that were initially praised, yet made no sense to me (the praising, not the rule)

If you logically play out what happens over a combat, Pistols should rarely have any special effect.
Step 1) in your turn you Assault. You have already passed the shooting phase, so your pistols aren't doing anything at this step. Resolve combat
Step 2) in your opponents turn, the opponent either falls back, or you resolve combat. Still no pistol action yet
Step 3) It's your turn again. By now, you are most likely not in combat anymore because a) the opponent fell back, b) your opponent is dead, or c) your unit is dead.
So again, getting to "use your pistol in melee" is not happening.

The likelihood of getting to Step 3 and still being within 1" of an enemy unit is only probable if multiple units are involved, or both units are rather wimpy in melee to begin with.
It is situational at best.

At the end of the day, pistols only serve as a "backup" weapon that you will probably not shoot because you'll want to shoot your main weapons instead.

-

Or, y'know, any number of units that exist as tarpit units, like Wyches, in which case pistols are massively useful.

A couple of pistol shots against a large tarpit unit may be useful, but I'd hardly rely on that to get you unstuck.
It's better just to not get in that combat at all, either by shooting said tarpit to ribbons first or just using clever maneuvering to prevent the melee from happening.
If you can do that and still end up in melee, then sure pistols are good.

My issue was how they were initially praised as this amazing change, when in reality they are more of a somewhat ineffective, situational back-up plan.
Don't get me wrong, for those units that only have pistols, they are good, but for the plethora of units that can carry better weapons, pistols are less than 'meh'.

-

They're a deterrent, a secondary tool. Your Tactical Squad that gets bogged down has a chance to not only fight first in your turn if activated correctly, then can blow a few of the foe away before having to Fight. Pistols are useful, rather than pointless as in 7th, especially if you have a few Plasma pistols or Deathwatch special ammo.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
They're a deterrent, a secondary tool. Your Tactical Squad that gets bogged down has a chance to not only fight first in your turn if activated correctly, then can blow a few of the foe away before having to Fight. Pistols are useful, rather than pointless as in 7th, especially if you have a few Plasma pistols or Deathwatch special ammo.

My Chaos Lord with bolt pistol agrees. especially when he uses a daemon bolt. Either way, a pistol isn't meant to win you the combat, it just adds a bit of extra utility to the unit that can tip the morale phase your way a bit more or, in the case of a mauler fiends magma cutters, actually gives them reasonable rules.

Also, unless you're one of the few units which gets to charge after advancing - you fire your pistol in the Shooting phase before charging in, so you're not wasting it that turn. Then if you get stuck in combat for any length of time, a pistol can come in handy. It is, however, one of the things I overlook most often playing 8th.

 Elbows wrote:
Also, unless you're one of the few units which gets to charge after advancing - you fire your pistol in the Shooting phase before charging in, so you're not wasting it that turn. Then if you get stuck in combat for any length of time, a pistol can come in handy. It is, however, one of the things I overlook most often playing 8th.

Or you fire your Bolter or other weapon, since there's no restrictions on charging after shooting.

 Galef wrote:
A couple of pistol shots against a large tarpit unit may be useful, but I'd hardly rely on that to get you unstuck.
It's better just to not get in that combat at all, either by shooting said tarpit to ribbons first or just using clever maneuvering to prevent the melee from happening.
If you can do that and still end up in melee, then sure pistols are good.

My issue was how they were initially praised as this amazing change, when in reality they are more of a somewhat ineffective, situational back-up plan.
Don't get me wrong, for those units that only have pistols, they are good, but for the plethora of units that can carry better weapons, pistols are less than 'meh'.

-

I think you're misunderstanding me. My point was that many tarpit units, like Wyches, have pistols, and make good use of them (not that pistols are particularly useful against tarpits), as a counter to the idea that as an assaulting unit, when it comes back around to you, you're going to be dead, the enemy is going to be dead, or you're going to fall back. Tarpit units are likely to still be alive and not fallen back for at least a turn or two after combat, so pistols let then continue to tie up a unit without sacrificing shooting.

Pistols are no longer used in melee. What they are is ranged weapons which you can still shoot even if you are "engaged", with an additional caveat that if you are engaged they can only fire at the closest enemy unit.

Pistols are a little screwy, but they are the only ranged weapon that can shoot at an enemy unit engaged in melee. The shooting unit does not need to be engaged in melee, but the target unit must be the closest enemy unit.

So let’s say a big pile of Ork Boyz are piled in on your Intercessors, and you intercessors can’t fall back because they are blocked by the edge of the battlefield, and you have a Hellblaster team 8” away. It’s your turn and on your shooting phase, you have your Intercessors pistol whip the Boyz. Then, because you really need you Intercessors, you use your Hellblasters’ pistols to cap a few more of the Boyz. You realize that you have whittled down the Ork Boys enough that you charge in your Hellblasters. Apparently, your Intercessors were camped on top of an objective marker, so you can’t go after jucier targets. Now, unfortunately for the Ork Boyz, they don’t get Overwatch on the Hellblasters, because the closest enemy unit is the Intercessor Squad, and they are not a valid target. The Charge succeeds and now you can play wack-a-mole.

That’s pretty much Pistols in CC

duWhee wrote:

So let’s say a big pile of Ork Boyz are piled in on your Intercessors, and you intercessors can’t fall back because they are blocked by the edge of the battlefield, and you have a Hellblaster team 8” away. It’s your turn and on your shooting phase, you have your Intercessors pistol whip the Boyz. Then, because you really need you Intercessors, you use your Hellblasters’ pistols to cap a few more of the Boyz. You realize that you have whittled down the Ork Boys enough that you charge in your Hellblasters.

Models cannot target enemy units that are within 1" of friendly models. You cannot shoot the boyz with the hellblasters, not even with pistols. They are in CC with the intercessors.

duWhee wrote:


So let’s say a big pile of Ork Boyz are piled in on your Intercessors, and you intercessors can’t fall back because they are blocked by the edge of the battlefield, and you have a Hellblaster team 8” away. It’s your turn and on your shooting phase, you have your Intercessors pistol whip the Boyz. Then, because you really need you Intercessors, you use your Hellblasters’ pistols to cap a few more of the Boyz.

If by 'pistol whip' you mean 'shoot with pistols' then yeah. The last sentence I quoted though is dead wrong. Models outside the combat don't get to shoot into it unless they have a rule that lets them, which the pistol rules don't.

P5freak,
Indeed, I wonder how many people misapply the following rule:

A model can fire a Pistol even if there are
enemy units within 1" of its own unit, but
it must target the closest enemy unit. In
such circumstances, the model can shoot
its Pistol even if other friendly units are
within 1" of the same enemy unit.
- Pistols

p5freak wrote:
Models cannot target enemy units that are within 1" of friendly models. You cannot shoot the boyz with the hellblasters, not even with pistols. They are in CC with the intercessors.

Not quite true. If they are engaged, then they can shoot at a unit that is engaged by another friendly unit, but their unit must be engaged and it must be the nearest enemy unit. It may not even be the enemy unit that the model's unit is engaged with.

A model can fire a Pistol even if there are enemy units within 1" of its own unit, but it must target the closest enemy unit. In such circumstances, the model can shoot its Pistol even if other friendly units are within 1" of the same enemy unit.

But an unengaged unit would not be able to fire Pistols at an engaged enemy unit, which I think was the main point you were trying to address, correct?

 Charistoph wrote:

But an unengaged unit would not be able to fire Pistols at an engaged enemy unit, which I think was the main point you were trying to address, correct?

Yes.