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So the last units left on board embark on a transport with FLYER keyword. The turn ends with the models "removed from play and put away to the side." Do the models embarked on the transport count as having models on the field for the purpose of determining the sudden death rule?

skchsan wrote:
So the last units left on board embark on a transport with FLYER keyword. The turn ends with the models "removed from play and put away to the side." Do the models embarked on the transport count as having models on the field for the purpose of determining the sudden death rule?

No. Models in transports don't exist all intents and purposes unless a rule explicitly mentions them.

Agree with BCB.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

skchsan wrote:
So the last units left on board embark on a transport with FLYER keyword. The turn ends with the models "removed from play and put away to the side." Do the models embarked on the transport count as having models on the field for the purpose of determining the sudden death rule?

No. Models in transports don't exist all intents and purposes unless a rule explicitly mentions them.

Where does it say they don't exist for all intents and purposes?

"Embarked units cannot normally do anything or be affected in any
way whilst they are embarked. Unless specifically stated, abilities
that affect other units within a certain range have no effect whilst
the unit that has the ability is embarked."

The rules just talk about how they can't do anything or be affected by anything while embarked, and that abilities that affect other units have no effect while embarked. I don't see anything that would say they don't count for sudden death.

The faq for sudden death states that "Do not include flyer and fortification keyword units when determining if you have units", but doesn't say anything about units in transports not counting towards the units in sudden death.

Xboom3000 wrote:
The faq for sudden death states that "Do not include flyer and fortification keyword units when determining if you have units", but doesn't say anything about units in transports not counting towards the units in sudden death.

It also doesn't say anything about the population of Uzbekistan giving your units bonus strength.

The rules are permissive, they tell you what you can do.

Take the transport rule itself when setting up for a example. they don't count towards being their own unit, they count as part of a unit WITH the transport and are deployed as one unit. Therefore, they are part of the unit that makes up the flier, but do not count as a second independent unit. as the sudden death rule exempts flyers from counting, so too does the unit inside that is part of the flier unit, so to speak.

Xboom3000 wrote:

Where does it say they don't exist for all intents and purposes?

"Embarked units cannot normally do anything or be affected in any
way whilst they are embarked. Unless specifically stated, abilities
that affect other units within a certain range have no effect whilst
the unit that has the ability is embarked."

The rules just talk about how they can't do anything or be affected by anything while embarked, and that abilities that affect other units have no effect while embarked. I don't see anything that would say they don't count for sudden death.

The faq for sudden death states that "Do not include flyer and fortification keyword units when determining if you have units", but doesn't say anything about units in transports not counting towards the units in sudden death.

The rules say that you lose if you have "no models on the battlefield". Models in transports aren't on the battlefield. I can see them sitting over there to the side, not on the battlefield.

If that's too literal for you, note that when you embark a unit in a transport you are told to "remove the unit from the battlefield". Also note that one of the FAQs says that units in a transport that explodes aren't affected by the explosion because they aren't on the battlefield yet. Also note that the sudden death exception for fortifications with units inside of them makes no sense if the unit inside of the fortification already suffices to prevent you from losing the game.

Dionysodorus wrote:
The rules say that you lose if you have "no models on the battlefield". Models in transports aren't on the battlefield. I can see them sitting over there to the side, not on the battlefield.

If that's too literal for you, note that when you embark a unit in a transport you are told to "remove the unit from the battlefield". Also note that one of the FAQs says that units in a transport that explodes aren't affected by the explosion because they aren't on the battlefield yet. Also note that the sudden death exception for fortifications with units inside of them makes no sense if the unit inside of the fortification already suffices to prevent you from losing the game.

This discussion came up during a small skirmish where my opponent loaded up the last of his units in his valkyrie to run away - and camped in his valkyrie for a turn. He argued that models embarked DO count towards having models on board, since they had already 'arrived from reserve' and has been 'set up on the battlefield' therefore count as a 'model in play' until killed. This is exactly why I quoted the texts for 'embarking on a transport,' as it explicitly states that models embarking are 'removed from the battlefield and placed on the side'

Because we gave my opponent the BotD, the game ended up lasting full 5 turns instead of 3.

skchsan wrote:

Dionysodorus wrote:
The rules say that you lose if you have "no models on the battlefield". Models in transports aren't on the battlefield. I can see them sitting over there to the side, not on the battlefield.

If that's too literal for you, note that when you embark a unit in a transport you are told to "remove the unit from the battlefield". Also note that one of the FAQs says that units in a transport that explodes aren't affected by the explosion because they aren't on the battlefield yet. Also note that the sudden death exception for fortifications with units inside of them makes no sense if the unit inside of the fortification already suffices to prevent you from losing the game.

This discussion came up during a small skirmish where my opponent loaded up the last of his units in his valkyrie to run away - and camped in his valkyrie for a turn. He argued that models embarked DO count towards having models on board, since they had already 'arrived from reserve' and has been 'set up on the battlefield' therefore count as a 'model in play' until killed. This is exactly why I quoted the texts for 'embarking on a transport,' as it explicitly states that models embarking are 'removed from the battlefield and placed on the side'

Because we gave my opponent the BotD, the game ended up lasting full 5 turns instead of 3.

Your opponent made a mistake, and assumed 2x Different rules worked together (Tactical Reserves and Sudden death)

Tactical Reserves tell you that if any unit *set up* in reserves on Deployment must arrive before the end of third turn or it is destroyed.

This means you can deploy that unit from reserves on turn 1 skip it back to reserves on turn 2 if they have an ability that allows them (like Swooping Hawks) and that unit wouldn't been destroyed even if it remains in reserves until turn 5 , because it already arrived on the battlefield before the end of turn 3.


Sudden Death simply tell you 2 conditions that end a match. Condition 2 makes it clearly that Flyers and Fortifications do not count as units in the Battlefield, The rule goes further and provides an exception for Fortifications with units embarked within (wich is a clear exampled that

Embarked units do not count as being in the table for Sudden Death purpouses) but DO NOT provide such exception for Flyers.

Your opponent had only 1x model in the table a Flyer wich do not count to avoid the Sudden Death condition.

I think it's pretty obvious that the unit is considered to be on the table occupying the same space as the vehicle but unable to be targeted.

When you take all the rule concerning transports together.

Like Open Topped on a battlewagon. The fact that they have to specify what things do not work for the embarked unit (which they would not have to say at all if the unit wasn't there).

The unit isn't in reserves and it's not dead so it has to be on the table as a rules entity.

The exception for Fortifications also shows intent, as the Author is clearly aware that Embarked Units are not 'on the battlefield' by penning such an exception in the first place.

The changes against fliers have all embraced one very simple narrative reasoning: Boots on the Ground hold Objectives.
If your riding around in the back of your chopper, your boots are not on the ground in order to hold the Objectives....

 Lance845 wrote:
The unit isn't in reserves and it's not dead so it has to be on the table as a rules entity.

The rules for transports literally tell you to "Remove the unit from the battlefield."

If they were still on the table then the rule for fortifications wouldn't need to specifically mention them as preventing sudden death when inside.

 Lance845 wrote:
I think it's pretty obvious that the unit is considered to be on the table occupying the same space as the vehicle but unable to be targeted.

When you take all the rule concerning transports together.

Like Open Topped on a battlewagon. The fact that they have to specify what things do not work for the embarked unit (which they would not have to say at all if the unit wasn't there).

The unit isn't in reserves and it's not dead so it has to be on the table as a rules entity.

The rule in question specifically applies to transports with 'FLYER' keyword. No rule specifies that a transport does not count towards having models on the field. However, there are specific rule that states that a 'FLYER' does not count towards having a model in the field.

For the purposes of determining sudden death, it is the non-flyer transport that is being counted towards having models in field, not the units embarked in it. When the transport has the "FLYER' keyword, it cannot count towards having models in field as specified in the sudden death FAQ.

Just to have it on hand if people are curious but to lazy to look up the changes themselves:

Page 215 – Sudden Death
Change point 2 to read:
‘If at the end of any turn after the first battle round, one player has no models on the battlefield, the game ends
immediately and their opponent automatically wins a crushing victory. When determining if a player has any
units on the battlefield, do not include any units with the Flyer Battlefield Role – these units cannot operate
within a combat airspace indefinitely and they cannot hold territory without ground support. Furthermore, do
not include any units with the Fortification Battlefield Role unless they have a unit embarked inside – even the
most formidable bastion requires a garrison if it is to pose a threat.’


I do like Skchsan counter, even if the Rule for Embarking didn't specifically state to remove the Unit from the battlefield:
If you are told not to include Flyer as on the battlefield, why are we counting it as 'on the field' for determining the location of the Models within?

Tristanleo wrote:
Take the transport rule itself when setting up for a example. they don't count towards being their own unit, they count as part of a unit WITH the transport and are deployed as one unit. Therefore, they are part of the unit that makes up the flier, but do not count as a second independent unit. as the sudden death rule exempts flyers from counting, so too does the unit inside that is part of the flier unit, so to speak.

They are deployed as one unit, but don't they count as a unit when determining if half of your troops have been deployed? I've at least assumed so and thought the same logic applied here. Is that wrong then too? The transport is on the battlefield and the unit is embarked inside it, so therefore on the battlefield too, no? Isn't the paragraph talking about removing the unit more about the fact that you dont have to actually shove your models inside the transport?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JinxDragon wrote:
Just to have it on hand if people are curious but to lazy to look up the changes themselves:

Page 215 – Sudden Death
Change point 2 to read:
‘If at the end of any turn after the first battle round, one player has no models on the battlefield, the game ends
immediately and their opponent automatically wins a crushing victory. When determining if a player has any
units on the battlefield, do not include any units with the Flyer Battlefield Role – these units cannot operate
within a combat airspace indefinitely and they cannot hold territory without ground support. Furthermore, do
not include any units with the Fortification Battlefield Role unless they have a unit embarked inside – even the
most formidable bastion requires a garrison if it is to pose a threat.’


I do like Skchsan counter, even if the Rule for Embarking didn't specifically state to remove the Unit from the battlefield:
If you are told not to include Flyer as on the battlefield, why are we counting it as 'on the field' for determining the location of the Models within?

It doesn't say the flyer is not on the battlefield, it just says to not count it as being for this one specific thing, and makes no mention of units inside a flyer being included in this too.

Xboom3000,
People have put forth the logical argument that the Embarked Unit's location is the same as the Transport, so the following question is vital:
When determining if a player has any units on the battlefield, is the Flyer located on the battlefield?

I state it is a logical argument as it requires us to ignoring the fact we have specific instructions telling us Embarked Units are removed from the battlefield. The people pushing this argument are doing so to set the stage, in order to make a reasonable and common sense jump from X to Y. In this case, it is reasonable to jump from 'we don't know where they are, as they are off the field of play' to 'of course they are located here, the same place as the transport that they Embarked into!' The reason why I liked the counter argument was simple: Instead of simply stating 'your ignoring the Embarking Rule,' like a few others, Skchsan took the logical argument and still ripped it to shreds!

In order to conclude the Embarked Unit is located on the battlefield, we would have to conclude the Flyer is also located on the battlefield....

My own take would be the carryover on special rules. The one where any rules that apply to a transport also apply to the unit inside.

Since the flyer doesnt count, the unit inside doesnt count either.

Cheers

Andrew

Xboom3000 wrote:
It doesn't say the flyer is not on the battlefield, it just says to not count it as being for this one specific thing, and makes no mention of units inside a flyer being included in this too.

Indeed it doesn't, but the rules for embarking that unit upon that Flyer transport tell you to remove the unit from the battlefield. Once done they are no longer on the battlefield, so cannot count as being on the battlefield.

As has been noted above also we are told not to count Fortifications either, but are given a specific exception for those Fortifications with a unit embarked inside. Note in this situation it is still the Fortification that counts as being the player's model on the battlefield, and not the unit inside. This shows us that the unit inside is, as we have been told, removed from the battlefield and therefore not on the battlefield.

 JinxDragon wrote:
Xboom3000,
People have put forth the logical argument that the Embarked Unit's location is the same as the Transport, so the following question is vital:
When determining if a player has any units on the battlefield, is the Flyer located on the battlefield?

Ignoring the fact we have specific instructions telling us Embarked Units are removed from the battlefield, the logical argument put forth will require us to include the location of the Flyer in order to determine the location of the Embarked Unit....

Why wouldn't the flyer be considered tto be on the battlefield? As I said earlier, in the faq it only says:
"When determining if a player has any
units on the battlefield, do not include any units with
the Flyer Battlefield Role"

I take that as the flyer being on the battlefield, but not counting for this specific thing, sudden death. If the flyer is not on the battlefield, it would count as being destroyed no? In the reinforcements section in the rulebook it says:
"Any unit that has not
arrived on the battlefield by
the end of the battle counts
as having been destroyed." So if we determine that flyers are not on the battlefield, they count as having being destroyed after turn 3, and that cant be right can it?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mr. Shine wrote:

Xboom3000 wrote:
It doesn't say the flyer is not on the battlefield, it just says to not count it as being for this one specific thing, and makes no mention of units inside a flyer being included in this too.

Indeed it doesn't, but the rules for embarking that unit upon that Flyer transport tell you to remove the unit from the battlefield. Once done they are no longer on the battlefield, so cannot count as being on the battlefield.

As has been noted above also we are told not to count Fortifications either, but are given a specific exception for those Fortifications with a unit embarked inside. Note in this situation it is still the Fortification that counts as being the player's model on the battlefield, and not the unit inside. This shows us that the unit inside is, as we have been told, removed from the battlefield and therefore not on the battlefield.

That's fair. All though I don't see that making it 100% sure for me, but that is a fair point that they clarify it for fortifications. I wonder why they haven't done so with flyer transports?

Xboom3000,
And just what is this thread focused on?
Determining what Units are on the battlefield for Sudden Death!

Without including the location of the Flyer as part of this equation, how do you determine the location of the Embarked Unit?
Personally - I point to the instructions for Embarking, which specifically state to remove the Unit from the battlefield... but hey, what do I know!


As for why the Authors gave exception for a Fortification but not a Flyer:-
Take a look at their upcoming rule changes leak within the Chapter Approved book as there is one specifically called 'Boots on the Ground.'
This Rule will remove the ability for Flyers to contest objectives as well, but it also strongly why the Authors are making these sorts of changes. It only makes sense that Authors, looking to make it so the narrative requires 'troops on the ground' to hold territory, would grant Fortifications an exception while delicately refusing to grant similar exceptions to flyers. Narrative wise, those air-born troops are just as effective at holding Objectives as the aircraft they are riding around in.

Xboom3000 wrote:

They are deployed as one unit, but don't they count as a unit when determining if half of your troops have been deployed? I've at least assumed so and thought the same logic applied here. Is that wrong then too? The transport is on the battlefield and the unit is embarked inside it, so therefore on the battlefield too, no? Isn't the paragraph talking about removing the unit more about the fact that you dont have to actually shove your models inside the transport?

I think you're going off on a bit of tangent here. While a transport is not counted as a separate 'unit,' it is still nonetheless a 'model.' Flyers too, are nonetheless a model, but there is a specific rule barring a 'flyer' being counted as having a 'model in battlefield' for the purposes of determinging sudden death.

Units embarked on a transport are considered to be "removed from battlefield" as per embarking rules. While you do make a valid, logical argument regarding the physicality of the model/units embarked on a transport, the rule specifically states that models are not considered to be on battlefield. As others have mentioned, this is why units, embarked on a transport that roll a 6 upon reaching 0 wounds, are not affected by d3 damage per unit but rather suffer casualty on a roll of 1 (to represent the dangers of having to sortie out of a exploding vehicle), because they are not considered to be 'on battlefield, within 3' of the said exploding vehicle. Otherwise, they would be exposed to both death on roll of 1 per model as well as d3 mortal wounds to the unit.

 JinxDragon wrote:
Xboom3000,
And just what is this thread focused on?
Determining what Units are on the battlefield for Sudden Death!

Without including the location of the Flyer as part of this equation, how do you determine the location of the Embarked Unit?
Personally - I point to the instructions for Embarking, which specifically state to remove the Unit from the battlefield... but hey, what do I know!

No need to get sassy. Isn't this thread supposed to be throwing out different arguments and coming to some sort of conclusion after?

I don't get your first point since I have at no point claimed that the flyer would be counted as being on the battlefield for the purposes of sudden death if there is a unit inside it, I'm just talking about the unit. SInce the unit "is" inside the transport, but is not I think it's valid to argue the point that the unit would be on the battlefield, but I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Overall I'm still gonna play it like you've said, I just thought it isnt as clear and I'd like a clarification in the faq since I can argue it the other way too with some confidence.

I'm still interested about another point this brings up, but I guess I'll start a separate thread for that one even though they kinda are connected.

I actually had even more sassy ways of replying, but yes... point.

Honestly though, do take a quick glance through the leaked material for the up-and-coming Rule changes in the Chapters Approved book. They are going to remove the ability for Flyers to be able to contest objectives, but it is the name of the Rule which is the most telling to the Authors intent: 'Boots on the ground.' When added with this part of the Errata: these units cannot operate within a combat airspace indefinitely and they cannot hold territory without ground support , it becomes screamingly obvious what the Authors are attempting to do with these sort of Rules. With that in mind, I can not conclude that the Authors intended for Troops flying around in a Transport to super-contest objectives or prevent Sudden Death from occurring.

They would be equally unable to hold territory from their current position aloft.

 JinxDragon wrote:
I actually had even more sassy ways of replying, but yes... point.

Honestly though, do take a quick glance through the leaked material for the up-and-coming Rule changes in the Chapters Approved book. They are going to remove the ability for Flyers to be able to contest objectives, but it is the name of the Rule which is the most telling to the Authors intent: 'Boots on the ground.' When added with this part of the Errata: these units cannot operate within a combat airspace indefinitely and they cannot hold territory without ground support , it becomes screamingly obvious what the Authors are attempting to do with these sort of Rules. With that in mind, I can not conclude that the Authors intended for Troops flying around in a Transport to super-contest objectives or prevent Sudden Death from occurring.

They would be equally unable to hold territory from their current position aloft.

Oh I've seen the Chapter approved rules and the tournaments I've played in already use them. I was just arguing the rules in the rulebook and faq.

 JinxDragon wrote:
I actually had even more sassy ways of replying, but yes... point.

Honestly though, do take a quick glance through the leaked material for the up-and-coming Rule changes in the Chapters Approved book. They are going to remove the ability for Flyers to be able to contest objectives, but it is the name of the Rule which is the most telling to the Authors intent: 'Boots on the ground.' When added with this part of the Errata: these units cannot operate within a combat airspace indefinitely and they cannot hold territory without ground support , it becomes screamingly obvious what the Authors are attempting to do with these sort of Rules. With that in mind, I can not conclude that the Authors intended for Troops flying around in a Transport to super-contest objectives or prevent Sudden Death from occurring.

They would be equally unable to hold territory from their current position aloft.

See, I would argue that your assumption of their intent is right on not holding objectives, because they don't have boots on the ground to contest the objective, but not on the issue of not preventing sudden death, because those troops could still deploy out onto the battlefield and keep fighting the ground war. That's why it can get so tricky trying to deal with RAI.

I think "Boots on the Ground" tells you all you need to know.

Are the infantry's boots on the ground if it's in an aeroplane? I think we can figure that out without rules...

They could be, if they took their boots off and dropped them out of a hatch onto an unsuspecting army below.

Coulda, shoulda, woulda! Maybe they'd have held that objective and not auto-lost!

Just to wrap up the discussion, I consider delaying the loss by camping in flyer transport is analogus to a game of starcarft, where a losing terran player lifts off his last command center and flies it over to an area unreachable by ground units, so you have to spend another 10 minutes tech-ing into flying units to go hunt down that last command center.

The particular FAW regarding flyers not counting towards sudden death considerations probably stems from the fact that flyers innately have higher survivability than a typical ground vehicle/transport and to prevent exploitation of such advantage.

AnFéasógMór,
Sure, they could do something in the future that would put boots on the ground again... but do they have enough boots on the ground right now?

Additionally:-
Do you count Units waiting in Reserves when your determining if the a player has Units on the Battlefield?
Those are Units that could also suddenly appear on the battlefield in the next few minutes....