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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





For what its worth I just picked up their Dragon Rampant book, and while I am loathe to "review" a book until I have played it a few times, at a glance, they do A LOT with the very low page-count they have on hand.

I am always a big fan of giving players loads of fairly balanced options, but off-loading unit/monster/hero design to the players own creativity.

11527pts Total (7400pts painted)

4980pts Total (4980pts painted)

3730 Total (210pts painted) 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut





A whole thread devoted to what people don't like about my game? I must have hit the big time!

Hey fair enough. No miniature game is going to appeal to everyone, and I completely understand why Frostgrave really doesn't appeal to some. It is designed to be more of a game about a story unfolding than about nuanced tactical play.

The game does have flaws (It was my first attempt at writing a game after all). Some of those I have fixed in the FAQ. Some I will be addressing in the next supplement, The Maze of Malcor.

That said, many of the elements some people see as flaws are actually deliberate decisions on my part because that's how I like my miniatures games. I like the fact that a thug has a decent shot at taking down a knight (although careful study of the math will reveal that the chance probably isn't as great as most people think).

Anyway, thanks to everyone who has given the game a try. That's all any game designer can really ask. If you don't like it, there are loads of other really good games out there. This is Not a Test is a really good one!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/11/21 09:34:51


 
   
Made in jp
[DCM]
Incorporating Wet-Blending





Japan

I, for one, love the game. The rules are simple enough that my eight -year old can play it from memory, but they reward forethought and coordination. The vulnerability of even the strongest models can be a lot of fun as well. Keep making these games, and I will keep playing them.

Now showing more Samurai Marines, Bad Squiddo Amazons, and an Oldhammer Chaos Thug!

Painting total as of 3/28/2024: 21 plus a set of modular spaceship terrain

Painting total for 2023: 79 plus 28 Battlemechs and a Dragon-Balrog

 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Joeseph, I think even the detractors here will agree you should be really proud of yourself. Your game cut through the chaff, and got a degree of mindshare, and brand recognition, in a hobby where most games die on the vine, and go unloved regardless of their merits. You did great, and many of us sincerely enjoy the game as well.

11527pts Total (7400pts painted)

4980pts Total (4980pts painted)

3730 Total (210pts painted) 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Myrtle Creek, OR

joe5mc wrote:
A whole thread devoted to what people don't like about my game? I must have hit the big time!...


Welcome to the big time.

Our group just bought into Garchipelago after buying almost all the expansions for FG so we must like more than we disliike.

Thread Slayer 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut





Criticism is part of the business. I can't say I enjoy it (I don't think anyone really does), but I've learned to live with it.

I'm glad that some people are finding a lot of fun with it. But I'm also glad that we don't all agree on what makes a good wargame, as it means there is a huge variety of games out there and new game designers have a chance to make their mark.

'Garchpelago' - I like that.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Myrtle Creek, OR

If you like that you should love: Hordesmachine.
Even sounds like WarMachine.
How in the crud Warmahordes got started as a thing...

Back on topic. Anybody got a line on were-elephants? Reaper has one model listed and it's not just old, it's no longer available at all. They're a thing in Ghost Archipelago is why I'm asking.

Thread Slayer 
   
Made in us
Lead-Footed Trukkboy Driver



Olympia, WA

There are a bunch in this thread over at Lead Adventure: http://www.lead-adventure.de/index.php?topic=105171.0

If I Had a Rocket Launcher, I'd Make Somebody Pay 
   
Made in us
Gargantuan Gargant





New Bedford, MA USA

 privateer4hire wrote:
How in the crud Warmahordes got started as a thing...


Warmachine came first. Hordes was a spin off. When you contracted the two names together, you put the better known one first.

On Topic.

Frostgrave is pretty awesome.

   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut





Also, I am always looking for ways to improve the game, so for those that have any suggestions - I'm listening. I think it is safe to say that I'm not going to change the basic combat mechanic at this point, but smaller changes are always worth considering.

For those that like the Mordeheim campaign system better - why do you like it better? Is it because all figures can improve?

Anyway, I'm always interested in trying to improve it (although we might not agree on what is an improvement!)
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





joe5mc wrote:
Also, I am always looking for ways to improve the game, so for those that have any suggestions - I'm listening. I think it is safe to say that I'm not going to change the basic combat mechanic at this point, but smaller changes are always worth considering.

For those that like the Mordeheim campaign system better - why do you like it better? Is it because all figures can improve?

Anyway, I'm always interested in trying to improve it (although we might not agree on what is an improvement!)


Certainly progression for all is part of it... as then you don't treat hirelings as quite such a disposable good, and instead its a hair more personality.

I also am really, really fond of the between session events as a small, unpredictable narrative device.

Finally, despite being a later bolted on addition, the expanded base rules are cool, and I would love to see Frostgraves base/ship elements expanded. Having a long term money-sink/investment is always another nice feeling of progression, which in turn increases my sense of ownership of a warband/crew/game.

11527pts Total (7400pts painted)

4980pts Total (4980pts painted)

3730 Total (210pts painted) 
   
Made in us
Blackclad Wayfarer





Philadelphia

 Easy E wrote:
You can see my thoughts here: https://bloodandspectacles.blogspot.com/2016/12/review-frostgrave-osprey-games.html

and my thoughts on the supplements here:
https://bloodandspectacles.blogspot.com/2017/04/review-frostgrave-supplements-osprey.html

However, my general thought is that it is a campaign system with a game added to support it later.

That doesn't mean I do not like it. I enjoy it with some caveats.


100% agree with it

However, it's still a solid 6/10~ game and can be played with old MageKnight figures/junk/reaper bones models on the cheap. Worth grabbing the rulebook and gaming with some friends as a break from Mordheim/D&D/other games

   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Myrtle Creek, OR

ecurtz wrote:
There are a bunch in this thread over at Lead Adventure: http://www.lead-adventure.de/index.php?topic=105171.0


Thank you. Very useful.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
We've only looked through Ulterior Motives but it looks like a move in the right direction. Having missions that the other player doesn't know all the details about (why is he in such a hurry to have that dog run all the way across the board without engaging me?) adds to our fun in other games.

GW published some card decks that give the underdog player a secret edge he can play in a pinch. They also allow alternative ways of winning a scenario that, again, only the underdog player knows about.

Archipelago's modification of treasure, creating a central treasure that's worth more, is a welcome change.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/11/24 17:33:03


Thread Slayer 
   
Made in us
Battlefield Tourist




MN (Currently in WY)

I alos like the crew that are always available, and the new way GArchipelago handles specialists as their loss is a bigger deal. Not just fire and re-hire.

Good changes in my mind.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/11/25 00:30:49


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Made in us
Death-Dealing Dark Angels Devastator



Southeastern U.S.A.

One thing from original Frostgrave that I wished Ghost Archipelago would have kept is Captains. I liked the idea of them , how they advanced, took a cut of the treasure, and learned tricks. Hopefully they will make an appearance in GA.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Myrtle Creek, OR

spect_spidey wrote:
One thing from original Frostgrave that I wished Ghost Archipelago would have kept is Captains. I liked the idea of them , how they advanced, took a cut of the treasure, and learned tricks. Hopefully they will make an appearance in GA.


We've never used captains but it seems like most rules in the FG series (two books are a series, you know ) are pretty modular.
If everyone has access to them in a campaign, I wonder if they would be unbalancing.

Thread Slayer 
   
Made in us
Gargantuan Gargant





New Bedford, MA USA

It always struck me as odd about the static weapon load outs on the henchmen. I understood the simplicity of them starting with a standard load out, but it always felt a bit off that I couldn't buy them armor or weapons. Not they should have equal access, but it would have been nice if each type had an upgrade option, of some sort.

   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




Grants Pass Oregon

joe5mc wrote:
A whole thread devoted to what people don't like about my game? I must have hit the big time!



It's a good game. I actually find the game balances out rather well. If you are dumb enough to keep throwing your warband at an assassinator then by all means you deserve what you get.

Ulterior Motives is by far the best expansion for the game. Are you planning on something similar for Ghost Archie?

   
Made in gb
Rampaging Reaver Titan Princeps





Earlobe deep in doo doo

Hellephant from Massive Darkness is a good call for a Were Elephant.

"But me no buts! Our comrades get hurt. Our friends die. Falkenburg is a knight who swore an oath to serve the church and to defend the weak. He'd be the first to tell you to stop puling and start planning. Because what we are doing-at risk to ourselves-is what we have sworn to do. The West relies on us. It is a risk we take with pride. It is an oath we honour. Even when some soft southern burgher mutters about us, we know the reason he sleeps soft and comfortable, why his wife is able to complain about the price of cabbages as her most serious problem and why his children dare to throw dung and yell "Knot" when we pass. It's because we are what we are. For all our faults we stand for law and light.
Von Gherens This Rough Magic Lackey, Flint & Freer
Mekagorkalicious -Monkeytroll
2017 Model Count-71
 
   
Made in us
Death-Dealing Dark Angels Devastator



Southeastern U.S.A.

 adamsouza wrote:
It always struck me as odd about the static weapon load outs on the henchmen. I understood the simplicity of them starting with a standard load out, but it always felt a bit off that I couldn't buy them armor or weapons. Not they should have equal access, but it would have been nice if each type had an upgrade option, of some sort.


IMHO, several of the more expensive henchmen were just "upgraded" versions of the cheaper options. For several of them there seemed to be a three tier progression. Each level costing a bit more and adding a bit to the load out and stat line.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Myrtle Creek, OR

 Llamahead wrote:
Hellephant from Massive Darkness is a good call for a Were Elephant.


Agreed. This guy...
https://boardgamegeek.com/image/3731512/massive-darkness

looks really cool.

Thread Slayer 
   
Made in us
Gargantuan Gargant





New Bedford, MA USA

spect_spidey wrote:
 adamsouza wrote:
It always struck me as odd about the static weapon load outs on the henchmen. I understood the simplicity of them starting with a standard load out, but it always felt a bit off that I couldn't buy them armor or weapons. Not they should have equal access, but it would have been nice if each type had an upgrade option, of some sort.


IMHO, several of the more expensive henchmen were just "upgraded" versions of the cheaper options. For several of them there seemed to be a three tier progression. Each level costing a bit more and adding a bit to the load out and stat line.


Mechanically yes, but from a RP or RAW perspective, you had to fire one guy and hire the other guy.

From years of playing D&D, Necormunda, etc.. I just expected to level up, or buy better gear for existing henchmen.


   
Made in us
Death-Dealing Dark Angels Devastator



Southeastern U.S.A.

 dropkick wrote:
joe5mc wrote:
A whole thread devoted to what people don't like about my game? I must have hit the big time!



Ulterior Motives is by far the best expansion for the game. Are you planning on something similar for Ghost Archie?



I second this! I love the idea behind Ulterior Motives. I hope that a similar set makes its way into GA.
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka






 adamsouza wrote:
spect_spidey wrote:
 adamsouza wrote:
It always struck me as odd about the static weapon load outs on the henchmen. I understood the simplicity of them starting with a standard load out, but it always felt a bit off that I couldn't buy them armor or weapons. Not they should have equal access, but it would have been nice if each type had an upgrade option, of some sort.


IMHO, several of the more expensive henchmen were just "upgraded" versions of the cheaper options. For several of them there seemed to be a three tier progression. Each level costing a bit more and adding a bit to the load out and stat line.


Mechanically yes, but from a RP or RAW perspective, you had to fire one guy and hire the other guy.

From years of playing D&D, Necormunda, etc.. I just expected to level up, or buy better gear for existing henchmen.



Yeah, but in Necromunda, you didn't really have henchmen - all your gangers were important. Here, the only character of any note is your wizard. Everyone else is just some hanger-on he recruited in the pub. You could think of the cost of recruiting a Man at Arms in place of a Thug as being that minion negotiating an annual bonus.
   
Made in gb
Rampaging Reaver Titan Princeps





Earlobe deep in doo doo

Or the cost of buying the new weapons and armour for them

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/04 20:42:42


"But me no buts! Our comrades get hurt. Our friends die. Falkenburg is a knight who swore an oath to serve the church and to defend the weak. He'd be the first to tell you to stop puling and start planning. Because what we are doing-at risk to ourselves-is what we have sworn to do. The West relies on us. It is a risk we take with pride. It is an oath we honour. Even when some soft southern burgher mutters about us, we know the reason he sleeps soft and comfortable, why his wife is able to complain about the price of cabbages as her most serious problem and why his children dare to throw dung and yell "Knot" when we pass. It's because we are what we are. For all our faults we stand for law and light.
Von Gherens This Rough Magic Lackey, Flint & Freer
Mekagorkalicious -Monkeytroll
2017 Model Count-71
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Myrtle Creek, OR

Saw an interesting variant on boardgamegeek.

They made 2nd moves the same value as first moves (i.e., you always move a model up to its move stat). Carrying treasure still halves your move, though.

They also changed fight + d20 on both sides to:
Fight + d20 (attacker) vs. Fight + Armor (defender)
For damage you still subtract armor from total attack value.

Seems like it would make defense more reliable.
And movement would be less about doing odd fractions of an inch.


Thread Slayer 
   
Made in us
Death-Dealing Dark Angels Devastator



Southeastern U.S.A.

 privateer4hire wrote:
Saw an interesting variant on boardgamegeek.

They made 2nd moves the same value as first moves (i.e., you always move a model up to its move stat). Carrying treasure still halves your move, though.

They also changed fight + d20 on both sides to:
Fight + d20 (attacker) vs. Fight + Armor (defender)
For damage you still subtract armor from total attack value.

Seems like it would make defense more reliable.
And movement would be less about doing odd fractions of an inch.


The Fight change is interesting. It is similar to how I sorta play shooting. Since damage is only relevant if you beat their armour in shooting, I generally don't roll my defense unless the attacker has beat my armour. The downside to using that in melee is that it almost becomes the same as D&D. An attacker would always be trying to reach the same target number each time they attacked a particular opponent. That could be very bad for some wizards or apprentices as a knight or some similar henchman with +4 Fight would just need a 7 on the dice to wound every time. And if you start adding buffs or magic weapons to the mix, the advantage would be significant IMHO.
   
Made in gb
Stubborn Dark Angels Veteran Sergeant





Teesside

I do think that a lot of the "it's unbalanced!?!" people haven't done the maths, unfortunately.

Small differences add up. There's a BIG difference between getting a lucky hit on a Thug (armour 10, health 10), who will get one-shotted, and getting the same lucky hit on a knight (armour 13, health 12), who will keep coming for you and quite possibly kill you on his next hit. That addresses two complaints -- that anyone can die due to one lucky hit, and that there's no point in upgrading your soldiers.

In over two years of regular play with lots of different opponents and between 2 and 5 players at a time, I've seen very few one-shot kills of significant units such as wizards or high-end soldiers. Occasionally you'll get an unlucky apprentice. Most of the time it takes 2-3 hits to kill someone, though, even a lower quality thug. Which means that cover, intervening terrain, etc. is key. Nobody rolls natural 20s all the time.

Of course you do need all the terrain. Thought you had enough there? Add a bit more! Multiple levels help, both as terrain height changes using risers, and as buildings you can get into.

The wizards are surprisingly well-balanced against each other. Elementalists seem OP if you don't have enough terrain, but there are plenty of apparently less useful spells that really come into their own once you start thinking outside the box. Telekinesis is nice but only becomes OP if you don't have enough terrain. Leap... is probably just OP, unfortunately, but it does get balanced out by direct damage spells. Elemental Hammer on a crossbow is devastating. Illusionary Soldier or Transpose can ruin your day. Etc.

There are flaws. The XP system doesn't quite work right, but if you drop XP for killing soldiers etc. it's fine. Treasure Hunters are mathematically advantaged over most other soldier types. Either up the price or take off a point of Fight, probably both. But overall this is a fantastic game, particularly given how quickly you can get it up and running, and how fast the games are. It gives you exciting, narrative moments, as well as rewarding tactical play.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Played our first game of Ghost Archipelago last night, incidentally. My initial thoughts, pre-game, can be found here:

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/1680/560317.page#9679965

After a game... Yes, this is good. Different to regular FG. A lot of the kinks have been ironed out.

There are probably still some balance issues. The lack of a need for Will, in the current system, should have been caught at the editing or game development stage. I am concerned that one of the Heritor abilities, which just gives you +5 to Will, is strictly inferior to the one that lets you completely ignore any spell. The concern is not really with that weak ability, or even the strong one; it's that this indicates that the game hasn't really been playtested, and that there's a real risk of dominant strategies emerging (are there five strictly best Heritor abilities, mathematically? Probably, yes, and once they're discovered, the game will become less fun and less interesting).

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/12/29 10:47:18


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Made in us
Gargantuan Gargant





New Bedford, MA USA

I used to watch Frostgrave battle reports. It never failed to amaze me how little terrain they used, and how much open space and line of sight it allowed for.


   
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[DCM]
Savage Minotaur




Baltimore, Maryland

I tried it and like it, but my limited time and attention span are focused on AoS for the time being.

(Sorry. I got tired of seeing the locked “pedophile judge” as the most recent topic in this subforum. I’ll return to the darkness whence I came now.)

"Sometimes the only victory possible is to keep your opponent from winning." - The Emperor, from The Outcast Dead.
"Tell your gods we are coming for them, and that their realms will burn as ours did." -Thostos Bladestorm
 
   
 
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