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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/01/09 04:56:40
Subject: The Last Jedi - Movie Discussion - WARNING - Guaranteed Spoilers Within
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Wicked Warp Spider
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sebster wrote:
Luke was also the guy who the Emperor goaded in to murderous rage, to the point where he only finally overwhelmed Vader by giving in to that hate and battering Vader down and striking off his hand, putting his lightsaber to Vader before then, seeing Vader now helpless, he finally relents.
You're arguing it is out of character for the guy who previously had a furious rage tying to murder his Dad to have a furious rage where he almost killed his apprentice/nephew.
But then he overcame that and became a Jedi. They did to him what they did to Han. Han in TFA is again the smuggler in ANH. Because nostalgia.
All his progression in ESB and RotJ is annihilated.
She learned she was already capable.
If you consider this a defensible point, there is not that much I can do any further.
I have the actual definition of a character arc, where are character thinks or acts one way, experiences some stuff, and ends up thinking or acting a different way. Poe was impulsive and reckless, and by the end learned to consider the lives of the people he was leading. It wasn't great cinema, but claiming it wasn't there is delusional.
Which true consequences Poe faced? Also, he did not act in a different way. He is explicitly told to do his usual stuff with no true difference given.
The only difference that now looks "tamed" and Holdo and Leia talk about him like a child in a previous scene.
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Generic characters disappearing? Elite units of your army losing options and customizations? No longer finding that motivation to convert?
Your army could suffer Post-Chapterhouse Stress Disorder (PCSD)! If you think that your army is suffering one or more of the aforementioned symptoms, call us at 789-666-1982 for a quick diagnosis! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/01/09 05:07:16
Subject: The Last Jedi - Movie Discussion - WARNING - Guaranteed Spoilers Within
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The Dread Evil Lord Varlak
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Manchu wrote:I know you will argue in good faith and I hope you trust I will do the same.
Of course. We don't agree on a great deal (although before this thread I think Star Wars is something we mostly agreed on). But I think both of us are always trying, painfully so at times, to explain a point, and never just trying to score cheap points.
The implication is that her power is not an inherited trait. Great! But then the issue becomes, where does her power come from?
Does it have to come from somewhere? I've never liked that the existence of great Jedi families means that all the great Jedi must come from these families.
Snoke says darkness rises and light rises to meet it. Great! But that's actually another question rather than an answer: why does the Force sometimes work one way and sometimes work another way?
Honestly I just let that line wash over me. I've little time for metaphysics poppycock in movies at the best of times, and none at all for Star Wars are the prophecy junk of the prequels. And this line is just way too Dark Crystal. I also doubt it will have any role to play in the conclusion of the trilogy.
Does this mean the line is a flaw, as its a bit of teasing exposition that will go nowhere? I think so.
On to the issue of Luke Skywalker, nephew murderer: We know Luke and Ben had already fallen out because Ben is not living in the Temple and because Luke explains as much. So why go at night, when Ben might be asleep? Why stand there hovering over him? Why draw his weapon and activate it? This is pretty clearly premeditated.
But there's no point using implication when Luke's specific words were that he went there to talk to Ben, was shocked when he learned how far Ben's mind had gone, and then makes that momentary decision to commit murder, which he then backs away from.
It's also very telling that Luke lies about all of this to begin with, clearly ashamed of himself. Yes, he pulled himself back from murder. But he absolutely was committed to that course of action, before suddenly changing his mind/finding himself unable to do such a horrible deed. Ben probably woke up because he sensed the danger and darkness.
As detailed above, Ben's fall is actually not explained.
Yes, Luke was clearly ashamed of this. Again though, that isn't just something we can conclude, Luke outright states it, saying he failed Ben, to which Rey replies that Ben failed him.
I agree that we get no detail for Ben's fall other than inner turmoil and Snoke's manipulation. As to whether this is a flaw of the trilogy or not I am not sure yet. It depends how the third film resolves Rey and Ben's story. Automatically Appended Next Post: Kaiyanwang wrote:If we have to go in lengths to explain such preposterous scene, the scene is not very good in the first place. Furthermore, one would ask why the absence of shields in a starship during a battle, and why such absence has not been pointed out in a series in which such changes and elements are even plot points. It really does not hold water in any meaningful way. Setting, narration. Nothing.
In Star Wars shields aren't passive, they are managed and focused. It isn't too hard to see why Hux would not commit shields to resisting a rebel ship that has been abandoned and is expected to be going in to hyperspace.
I'll say again, that's just fanwank on my part. It's me coming up with a setting consistent explanation for something that wasn't explained in the movie. If people want to buy in to my setting consistent explanation, use a different one, or just say the whole thing makes no sense that is up to them. And people are able to say that it wasn't explained in the movie but should have been. But what people can't do is say that the scene breaks the whole setting. That's plainly false.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/09 05:14:47
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/01/09 05:27:28
Subject: The Last Jedi - Movie Discussion - WARNING - Guaranteed Spoilers Within
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Dwarf High King with New Book of Grudges
United States
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Unit1126PLL wrote:
Yes, obviously shorthand. Which is why, after using it, the soldier, Fin, who doesn't care, mentions that it uses miniaturized Death Star tech and goes into some detail about how they couldn't kill it except by shooting it straight down the barrel.
Because the details of its construction are irrelevant and the soldiers don't care. Right.
All of which sounds like the practical implications of the technology involved, as opposed to the technology itself. Finn is giving voice to the FO Popular Mechanics article he read, or came across through scuttlebutt.
Hell, even people who are intimately familiar with military technology regularly use stupid names to refer to it; that's why the SR-71 is called the "Blackbird".
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Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/01/09 05:28:00
Subject: The Last Jedi - Movie Discussion - WARNING - Guaranteed Spoilers Within
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Grizzled Space Wolves Great Wolf
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sebster wrote:The Republic's fall was as much explained in this series as it was in the original trilogy, that it was never a complaint then is a clear sign it isn't a genuine complaint now.
That's just wrong, in an ongoing saga you can have issues in one movie that weren't relevant to others. Not all movies in a saga are going to be held to the same standard as far as exposition is concerned. As a series develops there's a greater requirement for exposition, because people are familiar with the world so leaving gaps becomes more obvious. You can't have an hour long chunk at the start of ANH explaining the universe because it'd completely mess with the mystery of the universe and give terrible pacing, indeed ANH had to be a stand alone movie. Rather as each movie in the saga is released it fills in a bit more of the background. ANH is like falling asleep and waking up in another country - everything is different but it's to be expected because you're not in the same place. TFA/TLJ is like falling asleep and waking up with your house on fire, you are in the same place, you had a certain continuity and cohesive structure and now everything has changed. One of the gripes about TLJ is that TFA seemed to be setting up for some interesting exposition, but instead Johnson was so set on subverting expectations and whatnot that we very little exposition.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/01/09 05:37:40
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/01/09 05:43:09
Subject: The Last Jedi - Movie Discussion - WARNING - Guaranteed Spoilers Within
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[MOD]
Solahma
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@sebster
The dynastic impulse of SW is fine with me. But pushing the boundaries here is totally welcome, too. I really like the idea that Rey isn't "royalty," as it were, ya know, despite her name and all. It also serves as another nice contrast with Kylo. He's a prince, literally and figuratively. One of the reasons I like these two characters, especially together, is this is prime "high romance" territory - where SW is at its best. (Hence the dynastic impulse in the first place.)
But again - if she isn't born to it, wherefore Rey's enormous talent? This is a wonderful, engrossing mystery. It actually drives her character development. Like the audience, she's struggling to understand her place in all this. And everything from the titles of these movies to their dialog suggests that the question of "why Rey?" ties into the ongoing metphysical conflict of the wider saga. So by sidestepping this issue, TLJ squanders a major point introduced by TFA. The closest TLJ gets is a line you concede is throw-away (although please note it was a key note in the marketing for the film). I didn't like it when TFA refused to explain anything about Rey but I figured this would be covered in TLJ. But TLJ doesn't even seem to care.
Be careful about Luke's words - remember they are lies or at least hugely significant omissions. Also note that although Rey concludes Ben failed Luke, Luke reasserts that he failed Ben when he confronts Kylo Ren on the salt planet. We are missing the key point about this key point.
TBH I don't think there is any reason to suspend judgment of TLJ until Episode IX comes out. That's sort of how I played it with TFA, reasoning that the first movie would have to be super conservative and basically forgiving the movie because at least it was fun. TLJ purposefully ruins the fun of the characters I like without meaningfully developing their personalities. I don't think TLJ sets up any especially interesting plot developments for the next go around. Episode IX will need to invent whatever it is ultimately about, probably by revisiting the very threads from TFA that RJ/KK/Disney left dangling.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/09 05:45:36
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/01/09 05:43:19
Subject: The Last Jedi - Movie Discussion - WARNING - Guaranteed Spoilers Within
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Grizzled Space Wolves Great Wolf
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Manchu wrote: Easy E wrote:I propose that you should write the next episode of Star Wars.
It'd be a much easier job if I got to write TLJ, too. As it stands, whatever is interesting in Episode IX is going to have to be invented specifically for Episode IX rather than flowing from TLJ.
The Luke-Rey-Kylo-Snoke spectrum is the best, strongest part of TLJ but it's mostly squandered. The amazing Reylo team up should have been the climax of the movie. And the movie should have visually/emotionally paralleled TFA: TFA ends with a shot of Rey reaching out to Luke and TLJ should have ended with a shot of Kylo Ren reaching out to Rey.
Adding characters like Holdo and Rose was a mistake. The heavy, emotional "A Plot" about Rey and Kylo should have been balanced by a lighter, heroic "B Plot" starring Finn and Poe. In this way, TLJ could have been a tight, fun, but also moving film.
Killing Luke rather than Leia was also a mistake, and not just because Carrie Fisher died. Leia has nothing to do in TLJ except serve as an inspiration. Her death would have actually enhanced this role. It would also, in combination with Han's death, create a super interesting emotional arc for Luke - he's been gone all these years and now his best friends are dead. It's too late for them - but not too late for Rey. Luke should have been portrayed as seeing the error of his ways and agreeing to train Rey as a Jedi.
Why couldn't we have such a film? Basically, because the main goal was to expand the IP - so we got a bloated, meandering, and ambiguous movie. I'm fine with him appearing from nowhere - as long as there is a reason for him to do so.
The obvious one would be, he was drawn into the affairs of the galaxy when Luke terminated the Sith legacy. Although this was invented after RotJ, reading the prequels back on that movie, we can see that there are two "dynasties" (Sith and Jedi) that each need an heir but there is only one candidate (Luke) and he can't (or rather won't) chose both - that's not how Luke's worldview works. He has been taught that you either choose good or you choose evil - and he has chosen good. So one legacy persists while the other goes extinct and this creates a directional pressure, a vacuum, drawing darkness into the galaxy - hence Snoke arrives.
But the truth about the Force is, as Rian Johnson allows Luke to explain in TLJ, it's not dependent on Jedi and Sith. Light and darkness are characteristics invented by those traditions to distinguish themselves from one another for the sake of galactic politics. The Force itself is no more riven than any other natural phenomenon (day/night, life/death).
Luke should have explained that he withdrew from the galaxy and from the Force itself not just because he was bitter about failing Ben Solo but because he thought this is what was meant by balance - that without the presence of powerful light, there would be no powerful darkness. Thus, exile was a sacrifice Luke made to restrain the power of Snoke and Kylo Ren. But Luke was wrong. Exiting the system did not limit their power; it called forth the power in Rey.
Once Luke realized this, he should have been willing to train Rey. Because it basically is an example of his own lesson: the Force isn't about Jedi in general or him in particular.
This is why I like TLJ less the more I think about it - I didn't really go in with any expectations and was entertained except for a few falws, but on reflection there's so many missed opportunities in it.
There are other movie series that I can watch time and time again and still be impressed by how well made they are and I'm not constantly thinking "they should have done this, they should have done that, character X is unnecessary, character Y has no development which is why I don't care when they died" and so on.
For example the emotion that both Luke and Snoke's deaths evoked were mainly disappointment, I see that as a flaw in the movie.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/01/09 05:47:01
Subject: The Last Jedi - Movie Discussion - WARNING - Guaranteed Spoilers Within
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Terrifying Doombull
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sebster wrote:I agree that we get no detail for Ben's fall other than inner turmoil and Snoke's manipulation.
We don't even get that. Luke and Leia blame Snoke and imply he was involved in some fashion, but other than their belief that their son/nephew was corrupted by the bad, ugly man, nothing in the movie actually demonstrates that.
For all we know (which is just shy of nothing), Snoke found him sulking somewhere a couple years later*, and lured him to the First Order with a series of cunningly placed Darth Vader collectibles, at which point Benlo signed up for a name change
*or the next day, given how these directors treat time and distance, and then TFA starts the day after that.
The Republic's fall was as much explained in this series as it was in the original trilogy, that it was never a complaint then is a clear sign it isn't a genuine complaint now.
This is entirely weird. The Republic's fall didn't need to be explained in the original- the setting was the Empire. The Empire was in place and functioning, and 'sweeping away the last remnants of the old republic,' the people who remembered it were old men- Kenobi, basically. While it wasn't explained in detail, there was plenty of time for it to have happened, and it's fall doesn't directly affect any of the main cast- it happened before they were born/when they were little kids. So you have an established empire consolidating the last of its power after winning decades ago with a choke hold on the galaxy. This is perfectly reasonable as presented.
In TFA you have a functioning republic. In TLJ, it is gone, and the first order had won everywhere in the galaxy and taken over. Now go back to the end of TFA: it ends on Rey handing Luke the lightsaber. Skip the intro space battle- the beginning of the movie for Rey, it picks up the Exact Same Moment- Rey handing the lightsaber to Luke. So in the course of essentially no time at all , the First Order conquered the entire galaxy*. Instantaneous Galactic Conquest bloody well requires some explanation. Not just telling the audience It Is So (don't question it) in the opening text crawl, with a couple snippets of dialogue wrapped around an anachronistic Verizon joke.
(Side note: there is a slight time lapse from victory at Starkiller base, the time it took for the Falcon to reach Island Planet from Evacuation Planet (Travel from Starkiller to Evacuation Planet is presented in TFA as instantaneous). But TLJ strongly suggests the Resisty used this time evacuating and nothing else. It's a matter of days at most, after you know, the FO losing their absurdly resource intensive superweapon. It seems not to matter for anyone, and that time actually happens offscreen after Rey gets hugged by Leia in TFA and before she gets to Luke.)
*give or take Hutt Space (never appearing in films) and the Unexplored Regions (ditto). The Republic, Empire and First Order are all shown exercising power in the Outer Rim if they feel like it.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/01/09 06:11:08
Efficiency is the highest virtue. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/01/09 05:48:11
Subject: The Last Jedi - Movie Discussion - WARNING - Guaranteed Spoilers Within
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Grizzled Space Wolves Great Wolf
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Manchu wrote:I didn't like it when TFA refused to explain anything about Rey but I figured this would be covered in TLJ. But TLJ doesn't even seem to care.
....
TBH I don't think there is any reason to suspend judgment of TLJ until Episode IX comes out.
I think even if IX answers the questions of TFA in a more satisfying manor, TLJ is still a failure. As the middle movie in a trilogy TLJ should have been answering some questions, raising new questions and leaving some unanswered in a way that entices us even more for IX. I don't think it handled that well at all. If IX turns out good it'll be in spite of TLJ, not because of anything TLJ built towards.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/01/09 05:54:55
Subject: The Last Jedi - Movie Discussion - WARNING - Guaranteed Spoilers Within
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[MOD]
Solahma
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@AllSeeingSkink, I agree - the very best thing in TLJ (seems most agree on this) is the Reylo team up ... but that happens a long time before the end of the film and the script basically undoes it immediately. Pretty much the rest of TLJ is stuff the saga must recover from rather than build upon.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/01/09 06:08:02
Subject: Re:The Last Jedi - Movie Discussion - WARNING - Guaranteed Spoilers Within
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Dwarf High King with New Book of Grudges
United States
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Unit1126PLL wrote:
I'm also certain that referencing medieval siege engines in a galaxy where they have been at the tech-level of Star Wars for 25,000 years is very informative and people are acutely aware of its limitations and capabilities.
The Death Star didn't just shock people because The Empire was willing to use it, it shocked people because The Empire had that capability.
Manchu wrote:@AllSeeingSkink, I agree - the very best thing in TLJ (seems most agree on this) is the Reylo team up ... but that happens a long time before the end of the film and the script basically undoes it immediately. Pretty much the rest of TLJ is stuff the saga must recover from rather than build upon.
I think I said this up thread, but I expect a Jacen/Jaina dynamic in the third film. Chewie may get crushed by a moon.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/01/09 06:12:32
Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/01/09 06:46:00
Subject: The Last Jedi - Movie Discussion - WARNING - Guaranteed Spoilers Within
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The Dread Evil Lord Varlak
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He was already a Jedi when he met with his Dad. That was the point.
Then even as a Jedi he gave in to temptation and that murderous rage, because life as a force user is a constant challenge. That's the whole point of the series.
If you consider this a defensible point, there is not that much I can do any further.
Well, you certainly can't attempt to support or justify your argument, we've established that.
Which true consequences Poe faced?
All those dead people. While a fairly crude character arc overall, complaining about a lack of consequences is very weird.
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“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/01/09 07:05:25
Subject: The Last Jedi - Movie Discussion - WARNING - Guaranteed Spoilers Within
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Terrifying Doombull
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sebster wrote:
He was already a Jedi when he met with his Dad. That was the point.
Then even as a Jedi he gave in to temptation and that murderous rage, because life as a force user is a constant challenge. That's the whole point of the series.
Not...really. Even if you go with the odd theory that he magically becomes a Jedi for initiating the confrontation rather than seeing it through successfully, I can't swallow the idea that the whole point of the series is 'the challenges of life as a space wizard.' That speaks to zero people in the audience. Just maybe it's something about ideals, redemption and there are lines you don't cross? Something perhaps the audience can identify with?
All those dead people. While a fairly crude character arc overall, complaining about a lack of consequences is very weird.
Which ones? The dead people at the beginning when he hadn't learned his lesson and accomplished something, or the dead people at the end when he had 'learned his lesson' and stopped them from accomplishing anything? One is a real consequence of command positions, particularly in resistance movements (though arguably too real for star wars) and the other is a really bizarre place to end up at the conclusion of an 'arc.' It wasn't even learning the value of retreat, just being indecisive, which is a patently horrible trait for anyone in a leadership position. He led them out to die with no real plan, then retreated with no expectation of rescue or relief.
At least at the beginning of the film, the dreadnought was prevented from firing on the evacuation ships, which it was maneuvering to do (since they didn't bother firing with the star destroyers, fighters or prioritizing the fleeing ships over the ground base in the first place)
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Efficiency is the highest virtue. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/01/09 07:28:20
Subject: The Last Jedi - Movie Discussion - WARNING - Guaranteed Spoilers Within
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The Dread Evil Lord Varlak
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AllSeeingSkink wrote:That's just wrong, in an ongoing saga you can have issues in one movie that weren't relevant to others.
But when its the same thing and no-one thought it was a problem before, and now suddenly it is, that's a good sign there's inconsistent standards being applied.
Someone brought up marriage as an analogy earlier, it was a good analogy. It's like when suddenly you get really pissed at some quirk from your partner, like if every time you ask what they want for dinner they reply by asking what you want. It never bothered you, now it suddenly does, and there's a reason for that but it isn't because that quirk is actually that bad.
Not all movies in a saga are going to be held to the same standard as far as exposition is concerned. As a series develops there's a greater requirement for exposition, because people are familiar with the world so leaving gaps becomes more obvious. You can't have an hour long chunk at the start of ANH explaining the universe because it'd completely mess with the mystery of the universe and give terrible pacing, indeed ANH had to be a stand alone movie.
Heh, you should read the original opening crawl for Star Wars. Its a horrific pile of gibberish, talking about vast battles between Sith and Jedi, and it goes on forever.
Anyhow, I don't really agree with your point, because you don't add more exposition as a story continues. Exposition is used at the start to get everyone up to speed and begin the intitial story. After that existing events should be more an more sufficient to explain where the story is going. If a story adds more and more exposition to explain its expanding story that's a sign a story is losing narrative drive.
What I think might be happening is people are using exposition incorrectly, and it's causing some confusion. A complaint that we should have seen the fall of the Republic is fair, it's just that it shouldn't have been done with exposition - it should have been shown, either in TFA or TLJ.
One of the gripes about TLJ is that TFA seemed to be setting up for some interesting exposition, but instead Johnson was so set on subverting expectations and whatnot that we very little exposition.
People are really taking that 'subverting expectations' thing and running with it to mean all kinds of stuff. And of course people are still assuming that Johnson was told to just go and make the next film in the trilogy with no guidance on the overall arc of the series. It doesn't work that way. Johnson worked with a story given to him. Johnson didn't decide Rey's origin, he didn't decide Snoke's fate. Automatically Appended Next Post: Manchu wrote:The dynastic impulse of SW is fine with me. But pushing the boundaries here is totally welcome, too. I really like the idea that Rey isn't "royalty," as it were, ya know, despite her name and all. It also serves as another nice contrast with Kylo. He's a prince, literally and figuratively. One of the reasons I like these two characters, especially together, is this is prime "high romance" territory - where SW is at its best. (Hence the dynastic impulse in the first place.)
I agree, and those are good points showing the opposite origins of the two characters.
But again - if she isn't born to it, wherefore Rey's enormous talent? This is a wonderful, engrossing mystery.
This only remains a mystery if you refuse to accept the answer given - there is no great answer that fits in place with the existing story. What's she's learned is she has no connection to past events.
It actually drives her character development. Like the audience, she's struggling to understand her place in all this.
And she's learned that. Her place isn't defined by ancestry or legacy. She enters this fresh, able to choose how to engage with the rest of the story.
Be careful about Luke's words - remember they are lies or at least hugely significant omissions.
I don't think there's any reason to doubt Luke at that stage. On a meta level, that's the confessional part of the story, where people finally tell the truth and and everyone just knows that this version is the real, absolute truth, because it's a movie and that's how movies work.
TBH I don't think there is any reason to suspend judgment of TLJ until Episode IX comes out.
I'm suspending judgement because some things we haven't seen, like Ben's fall, will only be missed if the story moves in certain ways. If the third film follows a path of redemption for Ben, then little on his original fall will have been a terrible omission, for instance. Automatically Appended Next Post: Voss wrote:We don't even get that. Luke and Leia blame Snoke and imply he was involved in some fashion, but other than their belief that their son/nephew was corrupted by the bad, ugly man, nothing in the movie actually demonstrates that.
Luke literally says he could feel Snoke's influence in Ben's mind. He's a fething Jedi, they can sense what is happening in other people's minds. WTH.
This is entirely weird. The Republic's fall didn't need to be explained in the original- the setting was the Empire. The Empire was in place and functioning, and 'sweeping away the last remnants of the old republic,' the people who remembered it were old men- Kenobi, basically. While it wasn't explained in detail, there was plenty of time for it to have happened, and it's fall doesn't directly affect any of the main cast- it happened before they were born/when they were little kids. So you have an established empire consolidating the last of its power after winning decades ago with a choke hold on the galaxy. This is perfectly reasonable as presented.
In TFA you have a functioning republic. In TLJ, it is gone, and the first order had won everywhere in the galaxy and taken over. Now go back to the end of TFA: it ends on Rey handing Luke the lightsaber. Skip the intro space battle- the beginning of the movie for Rey, it picks up the Exact Same Moment- Rey handing the lightsaber to Luke. So in the course of essentially no time at all , the First Order conquered the entire galaxy*. Instantaneous Galactic Conquest bloody well requires some explanation. Not just telling the audience It Is So (don't question it) in the opening text crawl, with a couple snippets of dialogue wrapped around an anachronistic Verizon joke.
France fell in six weeks. This idea that it must take years of epic fighting is false. Especially when we're talking about a disjointed, notably ineffectual collection of independant planet states.
Note I think it still would have been good to show this fall. It's just I don't think it's a huge omission that makes everything else impossible to follow or enjoy.
FWIW I think the error here could have been resolved with the starkiller attack in TFA - it shouldn't have hit some generic planets, it should have wiped the Republic fleet in dock. That would explain why the attack on the star killer base was done by a handful of fighters, and explain why the Republic was quickly overrun.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/01/09 07:52:26
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/01/09 08:26:37
Subject: The Last Jedi - Movie Discussion - WARNING - Guaranteed Spoilers Within
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Incorporating Wet-Blending
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Prestor Jon wrote:You don’t need an extinction level event. ISDs dropping giant rocks or giant tungsten rods or whatever object they want to use into the gravity well of a planet is going to lead to enough impacts to wreck a nation or civilization on the surface.
Rods from God are overrated. Dropping tungsten rods from orbit only have about the same kinetic energy as conventional explosives of the same mass.
sebster wrote: Manchu wrote:Why'd Disney greenlight JJ mysteries, then greenlight Rian Johnson dismissing those mysteries, the rehire JJ? (non-rhetorical question)
Because Johnson didn't 'dismiss' those mysteries. That's just a weird assumption many people on the internet made. This trilogy isn't being made up on the fly, with a new director being told to make something starting after the last person's movie, like some kind of $600 million 'post the next sentence' game.
The mystery of Rey's parents was created in TFA with the knowledge that part of Rey's journey in the following movies would involve learning Rey's parents aren't anyone special, that her story isn't one of legacy but of self-creation.
You are giving Disney way too much credit.
Johnson told HuffPo that when he was writing the script for “The Last Jedi” and it came time to address Rey’s parents, the reveal was going to have to answer the following question in a way that best serviced Rey’s arc moving forward: “What’s going to make life hardest on her?” Johnson says that when Luke learns Darth Vader is his father in “The Empire Strikes Back” it’s “the hardest thing the character could possibly hear in that moment.” For Rey, the hardest thing would be hearing she’s not special at all.
“And same thing with Rey and her parentage,” Johnson said. “The easy thing would be, ‘Yes, your parents are so and so and here’s your place in the world. There you go.’ The hardest thing she could hear would be […] ‘No, you’re not going to get the answer. This is not going to define you. You’re going to have to find your own place in this world. Kylo is going to use that even as leverage to try and make you feel insecure, and you’re going to have to stand on your own two feet.’”
Source
The mystery of Rey's parents weren't a setup for Johnson's reveal, it was just another of Abrams' mystery boxes that Johnson filled in years later.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/01/09 08:27:48
"When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up."
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/01/09 09:28:50
Subject: The Last Jedi - Movie Discussion - WARNING - Guaranteed Spoilers Within
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Mighty Vampire Count
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sebster wrote: Mr Morden wrote:None of the command crew save for Leia and Poe have any real attempt at making them characters and certainly don't make you care one way or another if they die - because you know nothing about them.
This complaint, that there are only two bridge characters given significant characterisation, is a complaint that is being made at the same time people are complaining that there was too much focus on secondary characters.
The chase being so very very slow and uneventful means no tension is generated, especially when they are trapped except two people can pop off for an adventure on Casino World - which itself disrupts the (lack of) pace and serves no purpose except possibly to give a new theme to related resorts etc.
The casino element was awkwardly included, but saying it served no purpose is an extraordinarily silly complaint. It was the casino scene that brought in the theme of hope to the downtrodden, that made it clear who the Resistance was fighting for. And it was a means to give Finn time with his new love interest. You can say you don't want those things in a movie, you can say they should have somehow been accomplished more cleanly, but saying they served no purpose is clearly wrong.
Self sacrifice is bad, well its good, no its bad, we are not sure but we should in by love or something
And here again you're ignoring the actual text of the movie to complain about the movie. It's made clear, nail hammered in to the head clear, that sacrifice to protect your loved ones is good, but sacrifice out of hate is bad. There's a nitpick that this explained far too obviously, but then people like yourself missed it completely.
This is what I mean when I say even after reading so many complaints, I am still none the wiser about what it is that set people against this movie. Because all these complaints are things people find (often incorrectly) once they've decided to find things to complain about in a movie they didn't like. They're not the actual reason. What that reason is I would like to know.
Reasons I disliked this film are really very simple and hopefully understandable:
1. It was boring, we had a action sequences and then just tedium before actions sequence time, a more accomplished team making the film might have constructed a more coherent and better paced narrative but this seemed beyond the abilities of those working on this one. Because the pacing is often so very slow, the characters often unengaging there is time to absorb just how stupid so many plot elements are.
2. The film was far far too long for the limited and often dull content, I found the characters other than the two leads and maybe Poe uninspiring and uninteresting.
3. The plot was not only badly drawn out and often used simply for marketing - see toy animals and Casino World but it often made no sense. I am sorry but we have brought up enough times why so many aspects were badly constructed and laughable in many cases. Again f this had been a lower budget movie the Critics would have been all over it pointing out the flaws but no - money and power talks.
4. Lazy writing - very little thought went into many of the sequences or the overall narrative - almost every scene has a " WTF" moment that some time spent on script might have solved.
5. I resent paying the money for what I saw .
Other than the internet, I chatted to 11 people about this - mixed ages and genders - only one of which was the "Superfan" of the conspiracies, true he hated TLJ like the rest of us, but he also hated TFA which we all enjoyed for the silly action movie it was - nothing special but it was quite fun.
Its so much easier to say "No the film was good, the audience is too stupid to appreciate it" rather than accept the flaws - monumental ones in my opinion.
on your specific points:
I never said we have too many secondary character - more that they are involved in stupid boring or unimportant elements within the narrative. Given the sheer length of time we spent on the "Chase" seeing something of the people and how they dealt with the fear etc might have relieved the tedium of that element.
We have very little insight into the emotional state of the Admiral when she suddenly decides to ram the heck out of the super giant ship (cool pic - stupid plot again) but I Doubt the only thing she was thinking about was "love" and again there was nothing that said Finn was acting out of hate - he just seemed to be the only one left to save the others - until the "love interest" crashed into him, preventing that sacrifice and leaving them stranded in front of the Imperials - bt of course they were ignored and wandered back in. When the speeder squadron set out with barely capable machines it was obvious that it was a suicide mission and yet no one questioned it until Rose suddenly decided to screw up the mission at the end.
Casino - is horribly awkward because it throws the already badly paced film into a nose dive, the fact that there is time for two people to not only escape the unescapable pursuit but they can fly off to casino world - (being a world for the rich and powerful has no defences or security to keep an eye open for odd people in shuttles). Then they wonder about like idiots, get three slave kids likely heavily punished or killed following their escape, let loose some space horses that can later be sold as soft toys by Disney and find a dodgy bloke who turns out to be ..... dodgy. The love interest element is terribly lazy - like so much of the writing in this film - bit of romance in a film is great but again they could not be bothered to actually write this. They could have had the two of them off on the mission before the stupid chase and actually built up some chemistry between them but nope - too much for this director.
The whole hope of the downtrodden thing is specifically subverted by the fact that a) the newly formed resistance is so very incompetent b) the "good guys" are highlighted as financing the same people as the bad guys - I am not sure if you missed that but it was clearly part of the narrative that nothing would change no matter who won because nothing had changed when the Empire fell, the same people make money selling guns and weapons to the Republic and the FO as they did to the Rebellion and the Empire. I am not sure how you missed this it was sledgehammered in like all of the plot points. We also had the "no one cares" transmission element - probably because the timeline makes no sense and the FO conquered the entire galaxy in about an hour - somehow.
Yep I really disliked this film, all but one of the real not internet people I spoke to about it said the same. A film can be many things - a piece of art, a fun thing to experience, a discussion about issues. I found none of those things within this film and importantly it did not make me want to see the next film in the sequence - in fact the opposite.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/01/09 09:55:32
I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/528517.page
A Bloody Road - my Warhammer Fantasy Fiction |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/01/09 09:31:06
Subject: The Last Jedi - Movie Discussion - WARNING - Guaranteed Spoilers Within
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Grizzled Space Wolves Great Wolf
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AlexHolker wrote:Prestor Jon wrote:You don’t need an extinction level event. ISDs dropping giant rocks or giant tungsten rods or whatever object they want to use into the gravity well of a planet is going to lead to enough impacts to wreck a nation or civilization on the surface.
Rods from God are overrated. Dropping tungsten rods from orbit only have about the same kinetic energy as conventional explosives of the same mass. sebster wrote: Manchu wrote:Why'd Disney greenlight JJ mysteries, then greenlight Rian Johnson dismissing those mysteries, the rehire JJ? (non-rhetorical question) Because Johnson didn't 'dismiss' those mysteries. That's just a weird assumption many people on the internet made. This trilogy isn't being made up on the fly, with a new director being told to make something starting after the last person's movie, like some kind of $600 million 'post the next sentence' game. The mystery of Rey's parents was created in TFA with the knowledge that part of Rey's journey in the following movies would involve learning Rey's parents aren't anyone special, that her story isn't one of legacy but of self-creation.
You are giving Disney way too much credit. Johnson told HuffPo that when he was writing the script for “The Last Jedi” and it came time to address Rey’s parents, the reveal was going to have to answer the following question in a way that best serviced Rey’s arc moving forward: “What’s going to make life hardest on her?” Johnson says that when Luke learns Darth Vader is his father in “The Empire Strikes Back” it’s “the hardest thing the character could possibly hear in that moment.” For Rey, the hardest thing would be hearing she’s not special at all. “And same thing with Rey and her parentage,” Johnson said. “The easy thing would be, ‘Yes, your parents are so and so and here’s your place in the world. There you go.’ The hardest thing she could hear would be […] ‘No, you’re not going to get the answer. This is not going to define you. You’re going to have to find your own place in this world. Kylo is going to use that even as leverage to try and make you feel insecure, and you’re going to have to stand on your own two feet.’” Source The mystery of Rey's parents weren't a setup for Johnson's reveal, it was just another of Abrams' mystery boxes that Johnson filled in years later.
That article goes on to say... “Anything’s still open, and I’m not writing the next film,” he said. “[J.J. Abrams and Chris Terrio] are doing it.” Johnson appeared to be speaking more about the franchise as a whole, but technically that would also include the actual truth behind Rey’s parents. Johnson sure is making it sound like the movies are written in a vacuum instead of having a cohesive direction. I'm sure it's not as extreme as that, but it definitely lends credence as to why TFA and TLJ feel disjointed. i personally don't mind whether or not Rey is someone or no one, I just don't think they've done a great job building her character arc and better handling the parentage thing IMO could have been a way to bring more depth to her character as JJ seemed to be setting up in the first film.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/01/09 10:21:05
Subject: The Last Jedi - Movie Discussion - WARNING - Guaranteed Spoilers Within
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Manchu wrote:Why'd Disney greenlight JJ mysteries, then greenlight Rian Johnson dismissing those mysteries, the rehire JJ? (non-rhetorical question) What mysteries? As I explained already, TFA never hinted once there was some sort of great mystery around Snoke. Everybody in the movie seemed to know who he was. I see absolutely no evidence Kasdan and JJ planned some big plot twist around it. I mean, sure they could have - after all Lucas did not plan any of the plot twists of Episodes V- VI when he was writing ANH - but there was no hints to that direction. As for Rey's parents, that revolved entirely around Rey's character and nobody else cared. It is understandable that an abandoned child would daydream about her parents being some special people who would one day come back to get her and have good explanation for everything. Maz flat out told her to forget about the whole issue. And really, the idea that "Your real name is... Rey Skywalker" is incredibly lame and seriously doubt the writers of TFA ever planned anything like that, especially in light of the criticism SW universe has got for being so inbred. The theme of Rey needing to get over her gone parents is so obvious that it is hard to think there was any other plan in the beginning. Automatically Appended Next Post: Xenomancers wrote: Paradigm wrote:
You do in SW, that's always been the rules. It might not make physical sense, but ships in SW have always acted like aircraft in an atmosphere, they can't just flip over while maintaining momentum like a BSG Viper...
Can't recall any time that a situation really called for an about face in starwars to really test that theory.
Number of "I can't shake them!" -moments in the movies...
Any way, in Star Wars one just has to suspend disbelief about how the space works (starting right from the sounds). Sure they could have made them more realistic later, but then they would have seen and felt much different from the originals and people would have complained.
Xenomancers wrote:
In the 70's average people knew practically nothing about space. Carl Sagan Cosmos didn't come out until after ANH (starwars probably started to get people interested in space (and alien)) You'd think landing on the moon might have done it...nope Starwars did it. Today - the average person knows a lot more. You have to make your film believable to the viewer or it's going to get ragged on.
Ummm...have you ever watched say, 'Armageddon'? That movie has LESS realistic space physics than Star Wars...it's just how Hollywood writes space.
As for the fighters crippling big space battleships - that has always been part of the SW canon. Big ships are exceedingly vulnerable to small starfighters. Enormous "Executioner" went down when a tiny A-Wing smashed on its bridge! It has its roots on WW2 naval combat where aircraft were extremely dangerous to ships. There were real-life instances of capital ships being crippled or even sunk by damage done by one aircraft. Star Wars is basically WW2 in space.
Also, I think there is sort of 'logarithmic' scale in Star Wars space combat. In very first movie, Rebels destroy Death Star with like three squadrons of fighters and the Death Star has only equally small number of fighters for its defence. In reality (well, in Star Wars reality) there were probably like a several hundred, or couple of thousands of fighters involved in both sides - movie just couldn't depict them all. Automatically Appended Next Post: Azreal13 wrote:
I agree that if the movie were truly bad there'd be a broader consensus as to why, but the rest smells of bovine excrement.
Yeah. Maybe some people don't like to see so many chicks in charge but they are a tiny minority. Hey, original trilogy had women holding the two highest positions of the Rebellion.
Really the problem of TLJ is that it is too long and has too many characters in it. It is a common problem with all sequels/prequels - you want to keep the old characters because fans want to see them, but you also need to introduce new characters so you can keep the franchise alive and fresh. So, this creates 'this person needs something to do so we can justify his/her existence in the movie' plotlines.
So the whole Casino world angle is "have something to do for Finn" -plotline. They added Rose so he would have a sidekick/possible romantic interest. Yes, the plotline has other purposes, most notably the "heroes should sometimes fail" -tension purpose from the story viewpoint but lets ignore it for this purpose.
Also, they don't want ALL storylines to run parallel as this creates a Phantom Menace mess, where there were four intertwined storylines running at same time. So they have to resolve some storylines after resolving the others, this then creates an exhausting double climax for the movie. As a result, TLJ has too many things going on for too long, making it difficult to concentrate and get invested. Thus, some people's reaction is "okay, I don't like it" but they have hard time pointing why. So they start pointing on number of other things, which are not necessarily relevant to the issue.
It is somewhat same thing which happened with Phantom Menace. People didn't like it and pointed at the obvious - Jar Jar Binks and Jake Lloyd. My first reaction after the movie was "okay, Anakin was really awful character, and Jar Jar was pretty stupid. But I guess it was okay otherwise". So I rewatched it and tried to ignore the annoying bits. What happened? The movie felt really boring. Directing was so uninspired and flat. Characters showed no emotion. Comedic villains were awful and felt completely incompetent and not scary at all. "Serious" villain Darth Maul had like 2 lines in the movie and only showed up for swordfights. Who cares if he lived or died? Main actors looked annoyed through the whole movie and particularly Obi-Wan's deliveries were super flat and wooden, so were other Jedi. Plot didn't make much sense either.
For me, difference with prequels and Disney movies is that while Disney movies do have their faults, the good bits are good - directing is dynamic, dialogue more interesting, characters are emotionally compelling and easy to get invested in. It is comparable to Return of the Jedi, which is hardly masterpiece and has some real bad stuff going on, but good bits there are REALLY good. Prequels had none of that. They had same flaws as the Disney movies or RotJ, but none of the upsides.
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This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2018/01/09 11:22:27
Mr Vetock, give back my Multi-tracker! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/01/09 13:01:39
Subject: The Last Jedi - Movie Discussion - WARNING - Guaranteed Spoilers Within
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Dwarf High King with New Book of Grudges
United States
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Backfire wrote:
What mysteries? As I explained already, TFA never hinted once there was some sort of great mystery around Snoke.
Aside from the Wizard of Oz hologram.
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Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/01/09 14:14:42
Subject: Re:The Last Jedi - Movie Discussion - WARNING - Guaranteed Spoilers Within
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[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer
Somewhere in south-central England.
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I have to say I didn't find that mysterious as it looked like the same communication system the Emperorused to talk to Darth Vader in earlier films.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/01/09 14:22:23
Subject: The Last Jedi - Movie Discussion - WARNING - Guaranteed Spoilers Within
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Wicked Warp Spider
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sebster wrote: He was already a Jedi when he met with his Dad. That was the point. Then even as a Jedi he gave in to temptation and that murderous rage, because life as a force user is a constant challenge. That's the whole point of the series. Nope. Luke becomes a true Jedi in the very moment he refuses to kill Vader. Previously in the movie Yoda tell him that he is not a Jedi yet. Luke points it out stating it in the very throne room scene. If you missed this, I see why we are still discussing. Seriously this is a big one. Well, you certainly can't attempt to support or justify your argument, we've established that.
I made my points. Is you that are trapped in a circular argument. "Her arc is that she is already prepared". That is not an arc. Is a poorly written character without true motivations or consequences. Is horrible writing. Is like watching the story of a robot. Not even that, because in the universe droids for sure have personalities. All those dead people. While a fairly crude character arc overall, complaining about a lack of consequences is very weird.
But that is not aknowledged by his character. Not even truly by the resistance, he would have been shot in another instance. Automatically Appended Next Post: Backfire wrote: Manchu wrote:Why'd Disney greenlight JJ mysteries, then greenlight Rian Johnson dismissing those mysteries, the rehire JJ? (non-rhetorical question)
What mysteries? As I explained already, TFA never hinted once there was some sort of great mystery around Snoke. Everybody in the movie seemed to know who he was.
But there is nothing left to the audience to catch what/who he really is and place him within the story build so far.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/01/09 14:28:05
Generic characters disappearing? Elite units of your army losing options and customizations? No longer finding that motivation to convert?
Your army could suffer Post-Chapterhouse Stress Disorder (PCSD)! If you think that your army is suffering one or more of the aforementioned symptoms, call us at 789-666-1982 for a quick diagnosis! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/01/09 14:32:18
Subject: The Last Jedi - Movie Discussion - WARNING - Guaranteed Spoilers Within
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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It's telling that I like the prequels more than TLJ.
Episode 1: The Phantom Menace military logic thoughts
1) Battle droids can and do exist, but are cheap and therefore ill-programmed.
1a) Expensive battle droids exist (destroyer droids) and are as badass as one might expect them to be.
2) The Jedi are more like policemen and less like soldiers, being both too ill-trained and insufficient in number to stop an invasion.
3) Aiming is easy for good guys and hard for bad guys.
4) Large ships are vulnerable to small fighters.
5) Lasers go straight.
All of these either answer military logic questions from the OT (could one make and mass-produce an army of droids?) and otherwise preserve the established logic.
The Clone Wars:
1) Clones are much much harder to produce than droids, even with accelerated development, but are much better at the whole 'war' thing, at least compared to the cheap ones.
2) Different companies have different takes on droids (B2 vs B1 Battle Droid), each emphasizing different aspects.
3) The Republic had had 1,000 years of peace, and even lacked an army if it weren't for Darth Sidious's scheming.
4) Armies fight like Napoleonic times. It's not realistic, but it's SW.
5) Jedi prove once again that they are not an army but merely peacekeepers, getting slaughtered by the Droid Army until the real Clone soldiers show up.
6) Lasers go straight.
All of these merely add to the building body of information we have on warfare in the Star Wars universe while upholding existing knowledge. The Clone Troopers are even obvious forerunners to the Storm Troopers, and the design of the Death Star is mentioned as a superweapon of incredible power. This helps explain why the Empire was able to build it: it was originally designed by the Techno-Union and Trade Federation and all the industrial and technical experts of late-stage capitalist republic. Too bad it had one flaw...
The Revenge of the Sith:
1) Ships fire broadsides at each other at point-blank range like it's the 18th Century. Well, this bothered me, but it's not terribly inconsistent with the rest of Star Wars.
2) Not much changes about the military setting in this film; leaders are still as supremely important as ever.
3) Lasers go straight.
Revenge of the Sith had the least amount of armies involved (a lot of it was internal politicking after Dooku was swiftly executed) but nothing in them ruined the logic of the setting for me. A lot of it was silly, a lot of it was unrealistic, and a LOT of it was pretty stupid, but none of it fundamentally redefined the setting for me.
TLJ did. TLJ has the following incongruencies with military logic in Star Wars:
1) Lasers don't, in fact, go straight.
2) Capital ships are vulnerable to fighters but only if it's the BBEG capital ships. The Good Guy capital ships apparently crush fighters if they're inexplicably "uncovered" by the capital ships, whatever that means. (Are the anti-ship turbolasers the same as the AA turbolasers? Can the Good Guy ships not fire both at the same time? What does it even mean? Unexplained.)
3) Apparently, you can do Massive Damage to the enemy with a starship ram, just make sure it's in hyperspace. Where did this come from? Why did the notoriously clever and ruthless Droid army never use this tactic, especially since it wasn't costing lives? Why wasn't this done to the Death Star when it was literally seconds from nuking Yavin-IV?
4) Large doors are apparently more effective at stopping ground assaults than planetary shield generators... and orbital bombardments too. I spot some Design Flaws at Hoth, or at least bad planning - did you see those huge doors on the hangar? Even with the shield down, they could hold out for months, if the Large Door logic works like it does in TLJ, where you need specialized superlasers to blow it up.
5) Leaders aren't very important. Or they are, maybe, sometimes.
Unlike the Prequels, which were just kind of annoying, TLJ actively makes me question the plots and competence of the OT characters more. This is more upsetting than the prequels, because the OT is supposed to be sacred, and untouchable. Now, when I watch ANH, I'll just be like "did no one think about strapping R4-D17 to an X-wing and hyperspacing through the reactor? It's not even mentioned as a possibility.... god what a bunch of idiots." and I'll never be watching episode 5 without going "they don't have the firepower to break through the doors on hoth, you idiots! You don't need to evacuate, you can hold out for months. They don't have a Battering Ram Cannon!", nor will I be able to watch episode 6 without going "Oh, the Emperor died. No one probably cares, because not a single First Order trooper even noticed when Snoke died. There's no sign they even knew who was in charge. Did Snoke lead from the shadows in his big super-flagship that most everyone seemed to agree was Snoke's flagship?"
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/01/09 14:33:28
Subject: The Last Jedi - Movie Discussion - WARNING - Guaranteed Spoilers Within
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Wicked Warp Spider
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Backfire wrote: As for Rey's parents, that revolved entirely around Rey's character and nobody else cared. It is understandable that an abandoned child would daydream about her parents being some special people who would one day come back to get her and have good explanation for everything. Maz flat out told her to forget about the whole issue. And really, the idea that "Your real name is... Rey Skywalker" is incredibly lame and seriously doubt the writers of TFA ever planned anything like that, especially in light of the criticism SW universe has got for being so inbred. The theme of Rey needing to get over her gone parents is so obvious that it is hard to think there was any other plan in the beginning. This has been stated so many times I cannot believe it must be repeated again. People did not wonder Rey parentage because they wanted another episode of a space soap opera. They tried to (kinda desperately) justify the absolute impossible perfection of her character with a weird parentage (someone proposed other things, like a memory loss. Possibly JJ will go for this, making TLJ an even more pointless movie). This is because they tried to give the universe they were watching consistency. To make Rey more believable and, consequently, likeable.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/01/09 14:41:54
Generic characters disappearing? Elite units of your army losing options and customizations? No longer finding that motivation to convert?
Your army could suffer Post-Chapterhouse Stress Disorder (PCSD)! If you think that your army is suffering one or more of the aforementioned symptoms, call us at 789-666-1982 for a quick diagnosis! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/01/09 14:44:25
Subject: The Last Jedi - Movie Discussion - WARNING - Guaranteed Spoilers Within
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Kaiyanwang wrote:Backfire wrote: As for Rey's parents, that revolved entirely around Rey's character and nobody else cared. It is understandable that an abandoned child would daydream about her parents being some special people who would one day come back to get her and have good explanation for everything. Maz flat out told her to forget about the whole issue. And really, the idea that "Your real name is... Rey Skywalker" is incredibly lame and seriously doubt the writers of TFA ever planned anything like that, especially in light of the criticism SW universe has got for being so inbred. The theme of Rey needing to get over her gone parents is so obvious that it is hard to think there was any other plan in the beginning. This has been stated so many times I cannot believe it must be repeated again. People did not wonder Rey parentage because they wanted another episode of a space soap opera. They tried to (kinda desperately) justify the absolute impossible perfection of her character with a weird parentage (someone proposed other things, like a memory loss. Possibly JJ will go for this, making TLJ an even more pointless movie). This is because they tried to give the universe they were watching consistency. To make Rey more believable and, concsequently, likeable. But really, if only thing you can do is a really bad explanation, maybe it is best to leave it unexplained. Big problem with Rey's character in TFA is that with basically no foreboding at all, she suddenly found out she was a major Force user. This was huge contrast to slow path to Jedi powers shown by Luke. Or other Jedi who started their training as small children. Even 9-year old Anakin was already thought too old! Other than, her character is hardly 'perfect'. She couldn't shoot and doesn't come across terribly intelligent. She is inexperienced and easily led around - this is even more obvious in TLJ. I am pretty sure there was some foreboding in original script of TFA, just like there probably was more exposition about Galaxy's political state. They cut it out to keep the movie compact. This is why I don't like the idea about JJ Abrams writing & directing the last part. He is pretty weak writer and cares nothing about plot consistency and plausibility.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/09 14:45:23
Mr Vetock, give back my Multi-tracker! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/01/09 14:49:36
Subject: The Last Jedi - Movie Discussion - WARNING - Guaranteed Spoilers Within
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Wicked Warp Spider
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Backfire wrote: Kaiyanwang wrote:Backfire wrote: As for Rey's parents, that revolved entirely around Rey's character and nobody else cared. It is understandable that an abandoned child would daydream about her parents being some special people who would one day come back to get her and have good explanation for everything. Maz flat out told her to forget about the whole issue. And really, the idea that "Your real name is... Rey Skywalker" is incredibly lame and seriously doubt the writers of TFA ever planned anything like that, especially in light of the criticism SW universe has got for being so inbred. The theme of Rey needing to get over her gone parents is so obvious that it is hard to think there was any other plan in the beginning. This has been stated so many times I cannot believe it must be repeated again. People did not wonder Rey parentage because they wanted another episode of a space soap opera. They tried to (kinda desperately) justify the absolute impossible perfection of her character with a weird parentage (someone proposed other things, like a memory loss. Possibly JJ will go for this, making TLJ an even more pointless movie). This is because they tried to give the universe they were watching consistency. To make Rey more believable and, concsequently, likeable. But really, if only thing you can do is a really bad explanation, maybe it is best to leave it unexplained. Big problem with Rey's character in TFA is that with basically no foreboding at all, she suddenly found out she was a major Force user. This was huge contrast to slow path to Jedi powers shown by Luke. Other than, her character is hardly 'perfect'. She couldn't shoot and doesn't come across terribly intelligent. She is inexperienced and easily led around - this is even more obvious in TLJ. I am pretty sure there was some foreboding in original script of TFA, just like there probably was more exposition about Galaxy's political state. They cut it out to keep the movie compact. This is why I don't like the idea about JJ Abrams writing & directing the last part. He is pretty weak writer and cares nothing about plot consistency and plausibility. I totally agree on Abrams, just a couple of remarks: a bad explanation is bad, but writing a character that is believable can avoid such bad explanation. Rey looks (I mean in facial expressions and such) and sounds as thick as the actual actress, but then she bypasses the compressor. In TFA is like Kylo, it looks like there was a previous different script and we witness the background radiation of that. The perfection springs, among other things, from the lack of dependence form others (less in TLJ I think - I prefer Rey in TLJ than in TFA). Compare to all the times Luke must be saved in ANH. I can count at least three. I am so mad. Just think if they let the Starkiller for episode IX, focused on the search for Luke with more Snoke and temple background, and let Leia train Rey to show she herself trained between RotJ and TFA. These movie had the potential for being awesome.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/01/09 14:51:10
Generic characters disappearing? Elite units of your army losing options and customizations? No longer finding that motivation to convert?
Your army could suffer Post-Chapterhouse Stress Disorder (PCSD)! If you think that your army is suffering one or more of the aforementioned symptoms, call us at 789-666-1982 for a quick diagnosis! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/01/09 14:51:18
Subject: The Last Jedi - Movie Discussion - WARNING - Guaranteed Spoilers Within
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Kaiyanwang wrote:
Backfire wrote:[
What mysteries? As I explained already, TFA never hinted once there was some sort of great mystery around Snoke. Everybody in the movie seemed to know who he was.
But there is nothing left to the audience to catch what/who he really is and place him within the story build so far.
He's leader of the First Order, the bad guys looking to take over the Galaxy. Basically, he has the some role as the Emperor in the first trilogy and we never learned more about him either, in the original trilogy.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Kilkrazy wrote:I have to say I didn't find that mysterious as it looked like the same communication system the Emperorused to talk to Darth Vader in earlier films.
I was bit different looking IMO, but I only took it to mean that Snoke had added some special effects to look more intimidating.
Though, I did have a pet theory that it wasn't a hologram at all - it was Snoke himself. Ie. that he was entirely a Force Ghost with no physical body.
That would have been kinda cool, though maybe opened too many can of worms about Force Ghosts which are kinda out of control already.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/09 14:55:23
Mr Vetock, give back my Multi-tracker! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/01/09 14:56:34
Subject: The Last Jedi - Movie Discussion - WARNING - Guaranteed Spoilers Within
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Mekboy on Kustom Deth Kopta
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sebster wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:
sirlynchmob wrote:You should try asking someone who's been divorced, why they got divorced. There's almost never a reason for it, it's usually an accumulation of all the nitpicks.
Interesting analogy. Thing is, when you ask someone why they got divorced and they say its because they didn't do the ironing on time and didn't want to go dancing often enough, then most people know that's not the real reason. That doesn't mean the person is covering up the real reason, it may be complex enough that the person can't really explain it themselves, but whatever it is we know it isn't because of the ironing.
For the one going through the divorce, it is about the ironing, You don't get to be the judge on what is a worthy reason or not. You shouldn't be so dismissive of peoples reasons and feelings.
the bottom line is people don't like the movie, and their reasons for it are not up for others to approve of. Nor are their reasons for you to assign, just because people don't like the movie doesn't mean it has anything to do with the patriarchy.
Go ask people why they don't like the first star trek movie, then come back and let me know their approved reasons for it. It's art, some like it, some don't, reasons are not required it's all subjective.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/09 14:57:50
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/01/09 15:01:30
Subject: The Last Jedi - Movie Discussion - WARNING - Guaranteed Spoilers Within
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Backfire wrote: Kaiyanwang wrote: Backfire wrote:[ What mysteries? As I explained already, TFA never hinted once there was some sort of great mystery around Snoke. Everybody in the movie seemed to know who he was. But there is nothing left to the audience to catch what/who he really is and place him within the story build so far. He's leader of the First Order, the bad guys looking to take over the Galaxy. Basically, he has the some role as the Emperor in the first trilogy and we never learned more about him either, in the original trilogy. Automatically Appended Next Post: Kilkrazy wrote:I have to say I didn't find that mysterious as it looked like the same communication system the Emperorused to talk to Darth Vader in earlier films. I was bit different looking IMO, but I only took it to mean that Snoke had added some special effects to look more intimidating. Though, I did have a pet theory that it wasn't a hologram at all - it was Snoke himself. Ie. that he was entirely a Force Ghost with no physical body. That would have been kinda cool, though maybe opened too many can of worms about Force Ghosts which are kinda out of control already. As for how much we know about the Emperor vs Snoke: The Emperor: 1) Values individual strength. ("Your weakness is the trust in your friends!") 2) Is cunningly good at planning. ("Witness the firepower of this fully ARMED and OPERATIONAL battle station!") 3) Overthinks things (His plan overlooked the simplest foil: hostile natives on the moon of Endor) 4) Is so badass he doesn't even need a lightsabre, iirc. 5) Is supremely confident to the point of arrogance. ("And your overconfidence is your [weakness].") Snoke: 1) May value individual strength? His line about "spunk" is kinda indicative of this, but it's delivered weirdly, and he certainly seems to trust his friends (He trusts Kylo so much that he doesn't even suspect hostility when he is "about to strike down his foe!" with the lightsabre). 2) May be good a planning? Who knows. The First Order took over the galaxy in the time it took Rey to hyperspace over to Ach-To and hand over a lightsabre. I guess that's pretty cunning, if it even was his plan. 3) May over think things? I guess? It never really comes up. Is he even in charge? 4) Doesn't really seem that badass. Sure, he can connect two people on opposite sides of the galaxy and unite their thoughts... I guess that's badass. I don't know, how much of it is the Force and how much of it is his control over it? 5) Is supremely confident to the point of arrogance, I suppose. That part we know is true. I completely feel like Snoke is a mystery to me.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/09 15:03:34
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/01/09 15:01:49
Subject: The Last Jedi - Movie Discussion - WARNING - Guaranteed Spoilers Within
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Omnipotent Necron Overlord
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@Backfire
"Ummm...have you ever watched say, 'Armageddon'? That movie has LESS realistic space physics than Star Wars...it's just how Hollywood writes space."
No it's not - in Armagedon they had some decent space physics.
#1 - The Russian space station went into a roll to create artificial gravity.
#2 - The space ships used Lunar Gravity assist to reach the required speed to land on the asteroid. True it would have made more sense to pull out in front of the asteroid and slow down rather than fly through tail debris. However - it was an action flick - you can expect things to be made more action packed than they need to be.
#3 - The moons Gravity put the asteroid into a 3 axis rotation...hindering communication.
I'd say the director (Michael Bay) had a pretty solid understanding of how gravity works. He even very cleverly used the environment of space to enhance the production of the film and create interesting plot elements. IE - there never would have been a suspenseful scene of earth trying to blow up the asteroid with ICBM's if they hadn't lost communication with the men on the ground.
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If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/01/09 15:07:43
Subject: The Last Jedi - Movie Discussion - WARNING - Guaranteed Spoilers Within
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[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer
Somewhere in south-central England.
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Unit1126PLL wrote:Backfire wrote: Kaiyanwang wrote:
Backfire wrote:[
What mysteries? As I explained already, TFA never hinted once there was some sort of great mystery around Snoke. Everybody in the movie seemed to know who he was.
But there is nothing left to the audience to catch what/who he really is and place him within the story build so far.
He's leader of the First Order, the bad guys looking to take over the Galaxy. Basically, he has the some role as the Emperor in the first trilogy and we never learned more about him either, in the original trilogy.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kilkrazy wrote:I have to say I didn't find that mysterious as it looked like the same communication system the Emperorused to talk to Darth Vader in earlier films.
I was bit different looking IMO, but I only took it to mean that Snoke had added some special effects to look more intimidating.
Though, I did have a pet theory that it wasn't a hologram at all - it was Snoke himself. Ie. that he was entirely a Force Ghost with no physical body.
That would have been kinda cool, though maybe opened too many can of worms about Force Ghosts which are kinda out of control already.
As for how much we know about the Emperor vs Snoke:
The Emperor:
1) Values individual strength. ("Your weakness is the trust in your friends!")
2) Is cunningly good at planning. ("Witness the firepower of this fully ARMED and OPERATIONAL battle station!")
3) Overthinks things (His plan overlooked the simplest foil: hostile natives on the moon of Endor)
4) Is so badass he doesn't even need a lightsabre, iirc.
5) Is supremely confident to the point of arrogance. ("And your overconfidence is your [weakness].")
Snoke:
1) May value individual strength? His line about "spunk" is kinda indicative of this, but it's delivered weirdly, and he certainly seems to trust his friends (He trusts Kylo so much that he doesn't even suspect hostility when he is "about to strike down his foe!" with the lightsabre).
2) May be good a planning? Who knows. The First Order took over the galaxy in the time it took Rey to hyperspace over to Ach-To and hand over a lightsabre.
3) May over think things? I guess? It never really comes up. Is he even in charge?
4) Doesn't really seem that badass. Sure, he can connect two people on opposite sides of the galaxy and unite their thoughts... I guess that's badass. I don't know, how much of it is the Force and how much of it is his control over it?
5) Is supremely confident to the point of arrogance, I suppose. That part we know is true.
I completely feel like Snoke is a mystery to me.
Evil characters in fantasy often are mysterious. It adds to their fear factor.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/01/09 15:12:57
Subject: Re:The Last Jedi - Movie Discussion - WARNING - Guaranteed Spoilers Within
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Mighty Vampire Count
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Yep but they also usually get a bit more to do!
When he turned up in TLJ I actually thought - ok cool he is going to do something - he made a few evil overlord snarky remarks in the two scenes and then got killed.
Its Space Opera so I felt a bit let down with him getting diced so quickly
- seriously Battle Beyond the Stars was so so much better than this.
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I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/528517.page
A Bloody Road - my Warhammer Fantasy Fiction |
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