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 Kaiyanwang wrote:

 ScarletRose wrote:

I'm still baffled at how this has spun out to 100+ pages. Some like the thing, others don't. And nobody is going to convince the other side.

Because some people liked/didn't like it and some have a rabid ideological drive to not just declare they don't like it but that it's "objectively" the worst movie ever made.

It's the same contrarian, regressive underbelly of the gaming community that's been creeping up everywhere lately.

So, we should have spent some post praising the movie, an then start another thread about another beautiful masterpiece from Disney to praise.
I find utterly ridiculous and dismissing your attitude. People, in agreement or not with the statement that the movie is bad, spent time arguing and analyzing point.
Compared elements with other movie, media, real world. I don't accept all the comparisons but I respect the effort and the will to analyse elements in a forum dedicated to their discussion.
What is the meaning of your post?
Same with gaming. GW and other companies pulled some good and some bad move, this is supposed not be discussed? Why have Dakka then.
Why don't call it when something is wrong or not working. What are we supposed to do?
Watch another flashy movie with brain-dead script, clap our hands, and then wait for the next? No thanks.
Or watch a movie that we enjoyed, and discuss its elements with other posters that liked it, or that attack it with good or bad reasons?
Who are you to enter in a thread and establish that is enough? Or that criticism is contrarianism?

Don't let this person get to you man. Some people are just best left ignored (esp. by those they disagree with). Keeps the mods happier anyway i'm sure.

I thought said political discussion was kinda frowned upon anyway on Dakka these days.

Much as i disliked the movie i wasn't so insanely mad at it. It was still garbage though. Then again i was never much a 'Star Wars' fan. Warhammer fantasy however....well i was probably seething with rage for at least a week after it got canned. So i think it's similar enough.

In this case hello, fellow Bad and Entitled Consumer (BaEC)!

I don't recall anyone saying that, worst star wars movie? yep, ever? probably not.

It is an awful movie - def the worst I have seen for quite some time.

Wow, didn't even have to try on that one.

--

What is the meaning of your post?

To paraphrase a very old story: it is as it appears to be, it can by no means be otherwise. I'm just tired of seeing the same 3-4 posts ad nauseum for 100+ pages.

Hell at least the thread where the backers complain about Robotech Tactics has new material every so often.

Who are you to enter in a thread and establish that is enough? Or that criticism is contrarianism?

Muh freedom, am I right?

I mean seriously, when every single positive post is met with "no it's not!" over and over it gets very tedious. It's not discussion, as I said it's some kind of ideological stand that every one of those darn people who are wrong about liking a movie be wiped out. Because that's the new "discussion", it's the new "telling it like is" to just shout the same thing until everyone gives up trying to say anything.

If you want to discuss a movie you liked why aren't you doing that?

 ScarletRose wrote:

I don't recall anyone saying that, worst star wars movie? yep, ever? probably not.

It is an awful movie - def the worst I have seen for quite some time.

Wow, didn't even have to try on that one.

You don't understand the difference between "worst ever made" and "worst I have seen in quite some time"?

It's the worst movie I have seen in quite some time. Of course I only watch a few movies a year and have not qualified what "quite some time" might mean.

I don't recall anyone saying that, worst star wars movie? yep, ever? probably not.

It is an awful movie - def the worst I have seen for quite some time.

Wow, didn't even have to try on that one.

well you could actually read and understand the post - always helps.

I have seen worse, this was the worst for some time. Not the worst ever. Capiche?

Muh freedom, am I right? I mean seriously, when every single positive post is met with "no it's not!" over and over it gets very tedious. It's not discussion, as I said it's some kind of ideological stand that every one of those darn people who are wrong about liking a movie be wiped out. Because that's the new "discussion", it's the new "telling it like is" to just shout the same thing until everyone gives up trying to say anything.

If you want to discuss a movie you liked why aren't you doing that?

People like it - they say why
People don't like - they say why

Some people have stated that ALL the complaints are from superfans - oddly enough some of us took issue with that and explained exactly why that was in error.

It's also kind of funny because every sort of negative post tends to get a "No it's not!" as well, and in the earlier posts it was also questioning if you had some hidden ulterior meaning behind why you disliked it that made your views on the movie invalid.

So it's kind of cherry picking for one side.

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

Should one be so hard on Christensen, I ask?
Who in the world would deliver properly the "sand lines"?

Oh, I have plenty of blame to fling at old George, by gum!

Getting real close to Threadlock now...

Don’t get the thread locked. It’s one of my last remaining pleasures around here.

I also remembered something. The whole map plot from TFA; that suggested Luke wanted to be found right? But come TLJ, it turns out he didn’t want to be found? I’m I getting it wrong or is there a plot hole there?

Scarlet Rose, Alpharius is in alert and i will not go further. I just can say: read the thread, you will fin interesting point against and pro movie, and even "meta" points about the industry, story structure, or critics.

Sometimes pick apart a movie can lead to that. If you don't want to see it, at this point I don't care.

An interesting piece on MSN about how Disney risks Star Wars fatigue.

http://www.msn.com/en-gb/entertainment/movies/disney%e2%80%99s-greatest-strength-is-about-to-become-its-biggest-weakness/ar-BBIQVk8?li=AAnZ9Ug&ocid=iehp

I only go to see two or three films a year, so one Star Wars a year does sound too many.

 Future War Cultist wrote:
Don’t get the thread locked. It’s one of my last remaining pleasures around here.

I also remembered something. The whole map plot from TFA; that suggested Luke wanted to be found right? But come TLJ, it turns out he didn’t want to be found? I’m I getting it wrong or is there a plot hole there?

It is never stated that Luke left the map, just that it was a map to find Luke. It could have been the result of many people piecing together data from evidence of what Luke was looking into prior to his disappearance and extrapolating from there.

 Future War Cultist wrote:
Don’t get the thread locked. It’s one of my last remaining pleasures around here.

I also remembered something. The whole map plot from TFA; that suggested Luke wanted to be found right? But come TLJ, it turns out he didn’t want to be found? I’m I getting it wrong or is there a plot hole there?

Ya that was a major dick move on lukes part. watch your nephew fall to the dark side, unleash him upon the galaxy with all your students, then run away and hide while your sister has to deal with her kid and your mess. Then he cuts himself off from the force in case leia tries to reach him by force twitter.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
An interesting piece on MSN about how Disney risks Star Wars fatigue.

http://www.msn.com/en-gb/entertainment/movies/disney%e2%80%99s-greatest-strength-is-about-to-become-its-biggest-weakness/ar-BBIQVk8?li=AAnZ9Ug&ocid=iehp

I only go to see two or three films a year, so one Star Wars a year does sound too many.

From the way it was discussed it also seems like they wanted more then one per year as well. Which really risks audience fatigue given how close TLJ and Han Solo movie are.

Looking at the star map that leads to Luke’s hideaway. we know that Luke flew himself to the ocean planet in his own X Wing, and presumably the course data would have stayed there with his ship.

However, he must have given a copy of it to Max von Sydow because there it was at the start of TFA, being picked up by Poe.

As for why Luke did this when he did not want to be found, we don’t know he did not want to be found. If he wanted truly to be lost, he probably would not have gone to the most important ancient Jedi shrine in the galaxy, and he would not have given someone a map.

Why then might Luke actually have wanted to be able to be found?

He might have wanted Leia to be able to contact him in extremis.

He might have hoped that someone else would clear up the mess he left behind, and come to get him.

He might even have hoped to find redemption from his own suffering and failure during his stay on the island, and only realised when Rey arrived that he had not.

Maybe all that is wrong, and Max von Sydow took a copy of Luke’s flightplan without permission.

So yes, there are ways to read the map as a plot hole, and there are ways to read it as a dramatic device.

The map is the maguffin in TFA. The discovery of Luke, and Rey failing to persuade him to return, are key elements of TLJ.

 Future War Cultist wrote:
Don’t get the thread locked. It’s one of my last remaining pleasures around here.

I also remembered something. The whole map plot from TFA; that suggested Luke wanted to be found right? But come TLJ, it turns out he didn’t want to be found? I’m I getting it wrong or is there a plot hole there?

Luke was on some holy planet with the oldest Jedi temple and books. Perhaps the map was the Star Wars galaxy's version of a scavenger hunt for tourists. Maybe R2 let the map loose in an effort at intervention for his depressed master.

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

 kronk wrote:
Hayden Christensen is a horrible actor, and the romance with Natalie Portman was comical at best.

Phantom Menace did give us the Darth Maul lightsaber fight and the Duel of Fates song, though.

Should one be so hard on Christensen, I ask?
Who in the world would deliver properly the "sand lines"?

@Unit I do agree on the prequels as nice for the worldbuilding for the most part. The general, rough story is an archetypal fall. Just the way has been developed is.. eeeh. Good parts and worse parts. I agree that camera work etc is better in TFA and TLJ.

@Galef in a way it is. Vader becomes almost a decoy protagonist... the final duel is with Obi-one. Ep III almost transforms it in a Sheev + Obi story.

I completely agree that the prequels were entertaining and expanded the SW movie universe in an interesting way but they still contained a lot of terrible acting, cringey dialogue and alien races that were 2 dimensional caricatures at best. On the bad acting front I'm willing to cut the actors some slack because I think the overuse of the greenscreen was a real obstacle to the movie. So much of the setting and characters were cgi it would have been difficult for any actors to make scenes look good when they're standing on a greenscreen stage talking to an alien character that they can't see while standing in a setting that they can't see. Sure, the late great Bob Hoskins pulled it off well in Who Framed Roger Rabbit? but there was a lot more physical sets and props in that movie.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
An interesting piece on MSN about how Disney risks Star Wars fatigue.

http://www.msn.com/en-gb/entertainment/movies/disney%e2%80%99s-greatest-strength-is-about-to-become-its-biggest-weakness/ar-BBIQVk8?li=AAnZ9Ug&ocid=iehp

I only go to see two or three films a year, so one Star Wars a year does sound too many.

From the way it was discussed it also seems like they wanted more then one per year as well. Which really risks audience fatigue given how close TLJ and Han Solo movie are.

Disney/Marvel don't have that issue as far as I can see - I am really looking forward to seeing several this year, after JLA and Wonder Woman same with DC - good films generate interest.

Weakest part of the TLJ was the writing, oh and the plot , oh and the direction, oh and the pacing............

Make a good film, people want to see the next one, make a crap one people don't.

Ya that was a major dick move on lukes part. watch your nephew fall to the dark side, unleash him upon the galaxy with all your students, then run away and hide while your sister has to deal with her kid and your mess. Then he cuts himself off from the force in case leia tries to reach him by force twitter.

Pretty much inspired by Yoda's cowardice in the prequals - "run and hide, screw everyone else and let the galaxy burn."

RE: the map to Luke

Yet another set up by JJ ignored by Rian. The backstory of the map could be any number of things BUT for the purposes of what the audience is actually shown on the screen it's nothing at all.

The map is important because it characterizes Luke's intent in going into hiding. Ignoring the map is just one more continuity breach between TFA and TLJ.

TLJ almost feels like an "alternate reality" relative to TFA. In some other dimension, a different Episode VII was released but for some reason the sequel to that film got released in our dimension. I wo der if they got our Episode VIII.

How does the map characterise Luke's intent in going into hiding?

You yourself explained (potentially) how above.

It seems to me that Luke characterises his motives in going into hiding.

Why do we need to explore the map? At the end of TFA it has done its job and passes into history.

The Map was just a McGuffin and once its usefulness to the plot was over, it was discarded. This is common in scripts across moviedom.

However, this left a gap between TFA's perception of Luke, and what TLJ portrayed to us. That causes some dissonance to the viewer. I personally liked how TLJ showed Luke for the most part, BUT the TLJ Luke does make you wonder why he even left a map in TFA to begin with. This is something that was never and probably will never be answered.

He didn't leave it. It was an old star chart of the jedi to find that old Temple. Somehow everyone just knew that's where Luke went.

Probably because that planet was The Force's most famous ancient shrine, or else it was a lucky guess, or else the director thought it would be boring to show Rey going to half a dozen planets before finding the right one, or something.

The point is that the story demands that Rey finds the light sabre and brings it to Luke, so the star map and the light sabre are made available to enable her to do this. In the second film we move on to the confrontation between Rey and Luke, which IMO is a more interesting part of the story.

Going into hiding is one thing. Leaving behind a puzzle that allows you to be found under certain circumstances is another. It suggests that Luke wanted to be found at a certain moment. However, this is entirely forgotten by Episode VIII.

sirlynchmob wrote:

 Future War Cultist wrote:
Don’t get the thread locked. It’s one of my last remaining pleasures around here.

I also remembered something. The whole map plot from TFA; that suggested Luke wanted to be found right? But come TLJ, it turns out he didn’t want to be found? I’m I getting it wrong or is there a plot hole there?

Ya that was a major dick move on lukes part. watch your nephew fall to the dark side, unleash him upon the galaxy with all your students, then run away and hide while your sister has to deal with her kid and your mess. Then he cuts himself off from the force in case leia tries to reach him by force twitter.

What other students? Were there any other students? If so who were they and where are they now? I believe that whole Knights of Ren thing was another JJ mystery box from TFA that RJ destroyed in TLJ. They haven't shown up yet and it would be pretty difficult to suddenly put them in IX.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Probably because that planet was The Force's most famous ancient shrine, or else it was a lucky guess, or else the director thought it would be boring to show Rey going to half a dozen planets before finding the right one, or something.

The point is that the story demands that Rey finds the light sabre and brings it to Luke, so the star map and the light sabre are made available to enable her to do this. In the second film we move on to the confrontation between Rey and Luke, which IMO is a more interesting part of the story.

I agree that the search for the star map to enable Rey to bring Luke his old lightsaber wasn't particularly interesting since it always felt like a contrived Help us Obi Wan you're our only hope 2.0 story arc with a predictable ending (I doubt anyone really thought Rey wouldn't find Luke eventually).

I disagree that the Rey and Luke interaction was interesting or compelling. If Rey had arrived at the Jedi shrine and Luke wasn't there and Rey found the temple, the tree with the books and the cave with the dark side visions on her own, kept the lightsaber, explored the cave, force skyped with Ben/Kylo, took the books and left what would be different? What happened between Luke and Rey during the 2 days she was on the island that was compelling? What did Rey's interaction with Luke accomplish that wouldn't have happened otherwise? Ben/Kylo still would have told Rey about her parents and about Luke's moment of doubt/attempt to murder him. It seemed obvious to me that Rey was going back to the resistance whether Luke agreed to come back or not.

The most interesting part of Rey's stay on the island was the revelation about the fall out between Luke and Ben, which had nothing to do with Rey at all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Manchu wrote:
Going into hiding is one thing. Leaving behind a puzzle that allows you to be found under certain circumstances is another. It suggests that Luke wanted to be found at a certain moment. However, this is entirely forgotten by Episode VIII.

Did R2 accompany Luke to the island and then somehow leave on his own or did Luke put the map section in R2 and drop R2 off before reaching the island planet so R2 could rejoin the resistance? I can't recall how the movie handled that question.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Easy E wrote:
The Map was just a McGuffin and once its usefulness to the plot was over, it was discarded. This is common in scripts across moviedom.

However, this left a gap between TFA's perception of Luke, and what TLJ portrayed to us. That causes some dissonance to the viewer. I personally liked how TLJ showed Luke for the most part, BUT the TLJ Luke does make you wonder why he even left a map in TFA to begin with. This is something that was never and probably will never be answered.

I think you're absolutely right and TLJ is full of continuity issues like that and the degree to which the dissonance between TFA and TLJ affected your ability to enjoy TLJ seems to be the key contributor to whether or not you liked the movie.

Based on C-3P0 saying R2 hadn't moved since Luke left, I guess R2 never went to Planet Ireland before the events of TLJ.

Prestor Jon wrote:
I think you're absolutely right and TLJ is full of continuity issues like that and the degree to which the dissonance between TFA and TLJ affected your ability to enjoy TLJ seems to be the key contributor to whether or not you liked the movie.

I don't think there is any singular key contributor to why people didn't like it. The movie has a whole host of flaws that might have contributed to why people didn't like it.

To be honest, I didn't even notice the discontinuity between TFA and TLJ because it's been 2 years since TFA and it wasn't a memorable enough movie for me to remember where we were up to, other than major plot points of course, but most of the smaller details had slipped my mind by the time I watched TLJ.

I still managed to find plenty of things I didn't like about TLJ though

sirlynchmob wrote:
The words of dark helmet were never more true than in this movie.
"evil will always triumph because good is dumb"

Well, Evil didn't exactly cover itself with glory in this movie either.

1) General Hux... wait. First off, why is a GENERAL in charge of a fleet? Surely there's an ADMIRAL around who can run a fleet better than Hux does. That's a major Idiot Ball moment for Snoke, putting Hux in command of his fleet. If Hux is really the best he's got, he's got no business even operating a fleet.

2) Hux then goes to attack a Resistance base - a base he knows is equipped with stub fighters of the type that just took down Starkiller Base - without deploying his own fighters to defend against them.

3) Hux is further successfully delayed for several minutes by Poe, rather than just opening fire and blowing that stationary X-wing into orbital debris.

4) Fast forward a bit, Hux finds the Resistance fleet in deep space... why does only ONE ship ever fire on the Resistance? For that matter, why not use the several hundred (if not several thousand) TIE fighters and bombers go whole hog on that pathetic fleet remnant?

5) Sure, your star destroyers can't keep up with the Resistance in normal space, and the Resistance can't go into hyperspace due to fuel shortages. Ah, Hux, there's nothing stopping YOUR ships from hopping into hyperspace for a couple seconds and creating a nice little Resistance sandwich...

6) Snoke then COMPLETELY misreads Kylo Ren, completing his time with the Idiot Ball. And life.

7) Sure, the hyperspace ram did quite a bit of damage to your fleet. Surely an orbital bombardment with what was left would have been more effective than landing troops.

8) I'm not sure how well a lightsaber would deflect shots from the AT... whatever those were. I'm pretty sure Ren didn't know either. Having them all shoot at Luke was foolhardy.

9) Pausing the whole assault while Ren dueled Luke was also foolhardy. Surely Ren could have tied Luke up sufficiently for the rest of the troops to finish off the Resistance.

10) Please tell me the TIE fighter pilots are not so inept as to ALL be shot down by the Millennium Falcon... If it's true, then Snoke really jumped the gun. He needed another decade or so to train decent fighter pilots... and ideally, a decent set of fleet commanders too.