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Made in ca
Monstrously Massive Big Mutant






Usually I don't ask questions like this, but I play Khorne Daemons and i'm playing a friendly pick up 500 point game with a friend soon. He is playing conscript tarpit, and i'm playing Khorne...But I have an uneasy feeling that I may just get leveled off the table fast, even with terrain to help.

From the Khorne Daemons, what would be the best model to handle swaths of small models? The only one I don't own is a Bloodthirster.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Gig Harbor, WA

Khorne Daemons are pretty much a one trick pony. You've got almost no ranged weaponry. You're going to march forward and he's going to shoot you. It doesn't sound like a very fun game honestly. As you're an index army, it would be unfair of him to use any of the special abilities form the codex in my opinion. You should ask him not to.

Do you have any fleshhounds or blood crushers? Both of those offer enough mobility to get into combat quickly, and are tough so should be able to withstand a lot of fire. Your main objective should be to try and get to the officers, or to prevent his infantry from falling back.

Do you know what else he might be bringing in addition to the conscripts? usually they provide protection from something else.

Bloodletters are a bad looking choice against guard. T3 with a 5+, and they only have 1 attack. Mass Lasgun fire is the perfect counter to them. Maybe get a character close and summon them? Bleh.

Daemons sure don't have many choices. As a guard player I'd say your better choices are fleshhounds, bloodcrushers, and skull cannon. But none of them really have enough attacks to wear down a horde even if you do get into combat.

It looks like a very unfun matchup. daemons just don't have good tools against conscript + commissar (although not many armies do, which is probably the reason everyone is so mad about that combo).
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




How good are Skullcannons or whatever right now?

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in ca
Monstrously Massive Big Mutant






Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
How good are Skullcannons or whatever right now?


As far as I can tell? They'er hyper schizophranic. They do too many things to be good at any one particular thing, and it suffers for it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 argonak wrote:
Khorne Daemons are pretty much a one trick pony. You've got almost no ranged weaponry. You're going to march forward and he's going to shoot you. It doesn't sound like a very fun game honestly. As you're an index army, it would be unfair of him to use any of the special abilities form the codex in my opinion. You should ask him not to.

Do you have any fleshhounds or blood crushers? Both of those offer enough mobility to get into combat quickly, and are tough so should be able to withstand a lot of fire. Your main objective should be to try and get to the officers, or to prevent his infantry from falling back.

Do you know what else he might be bringing in addition to the conscripts? usually they provide protection from something else.

Bloodletters are a bad looking choice against guard. T3 with a 5+, and they only have 1 attack. Mass Lasgun fire is the perfect counter to them. Maybe get a character close and summon them? Bleh.

Daemons sure don't have many choices. As a guard player I'd say your better choices are fleshhounds, bloodcrushers, and skull cannon. But none of them really have enough attacks to wear down a horde even if you do get into combat.

It looks like a very unfun matchup. daemons just don't have good tools against conscript + commissar (although not many armies do, which is probably the reason everyone is so mad about that combo).


That's what I thought. Upon further looking at what I have, I think ill be making a CSM list with a Daemon Prince, Cultists to screen while I march, and a Vindicator to deal with any tanks, or just to blow holes in his blobs.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/12 09:02:15


 
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User





As others have said, you pretty much got what you got with Khorne daemons. If you're ok with branching out I think Slaanesh daemons would be a very strong option.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





If you play mono-God, you are always going to have strong weaknesses.

Branching out into one other god will give you the tools you need to deal with Conscripts.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Gig Harbor, WA

 vaklor4 wrote:
Spoiler:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
How good are Skullcannons or whatever right now?


As far as I can tell? They'er hyper schizophranic. They do too many things to be good at any one particular thing, and it suffers for it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 argonak wrote:
Khorne Daemons are pretty much a one trick pony. You've got almost no ranged weaponry. You're going to march forward and he's going to shoot you. It doesn't sound like a very fun game honestly. As you're an index army, it would be unfair of him to use any of the special abilities form the codex in my opinion. You should ask him not to.

Do you have any fleshhounds or blood crushers? Both of those offer enough mobility to get into combat quickly, and are tough so should be able to withstand a lot of fire. Your main objective should be to try and get to the officers, or to prevent his infantry from falling back.

Do you know what else he might be bringing in addition to the conscripts? usually they provide protection from something else.

Bloodletters are a bad looking choice against guard. T3 with a 5+, and they only have 1 attack. Mass Lasgun fire is the perfect counter to them. Maybe get a character close and summon them? Bleh.

Daemons sure don't have many choices. As a guard player I'd say your better choices are fleshhounds, bloodcrushers, and skull cannon. But none of them really have enough attacks to wear down a horde even if you do get into combat.

It looks like a very unfun matchup. daemons just don't have good tools against conscript + commissar (although not many armies do, which is probably the reason everyone is so mad about that combo).


That's what I thought. Upon further looking at what I have, I think ill be making a CSM list with a Daemon Prince, Cultists to screen while I march, and a Vindicator to deal with any tanks, or just to blow holes in his blobs.


I can tell you that DPs have definetly torn up my pre-codex guard in games, but I don't play conscript hordes, just infantry squads. Watch out for Ogyrns, they're tailor made for killing Daemon Princes. Hellbrutes have been effective as well. Don't forget about their "ow you shot me" free shooting attack. My CSM opponent hasn't used cultists, so I don't know how that would work out. He usually brings CSMs of varying types.

Do you have the CSM codex?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/12 23:48:02


 
   
Made in gb
Stern Iron Priest with Thrall Bodyguard



UK

Playing conscripts isn't really appropriate for friendly games its not going to end in a fun match to you OP.

   
Made in us
Powerful Phoenix Lord





Daemons are one of those things which really shouldn't be its own army...and the penalties of a weak list come with the territory. That being said, you can probably luck out and get a win in...maaaybe.
   
Made in nz
Boom! Leman Russ Commander




New Zealand

 vaklor4 wrote:

From the Khorne Daemons, what would be the best model to handle swaths of small models? The only one I don't own is a Bloodthirster.


Pushing a big expensive killer into a pit of conscripts is exactly what your IG opponent wants you to do. It'll spend the whole game slaughtering worthless chaff while the rest of your army gets taken to pound town.

5000
 
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle





In My Lab

 Elbows wrote:
Daemons are one of those things which really shouldn't be its own army...and the penalties of a weak list come with the territory. That being said, you can probably luck out and get a win in...maaaybe.


And why shouldn't Daemons be their own army?

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in us
Clousseau





East Bay, Ca, US

 JNAProductions wrote:
 Elbows wrote:
Daemons are one of those things which really shouldn't be its own army...and the penalties of a weak list come with the territory. That being said, you can probably luck out and get a win in...maaaybe.


And why shouldn't Daemons be their own army?


People use this to justify anything that isn't good in the meta. Playing Grey Knights i get this all the time. Yeah they're super weak on their own but Grey Knights aren't supposed to be a standalone army. It's frustrating.

 Galas wrote:
I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you

Bharring wrote:
He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
 
   
Made in ca
Monstrously Massive Big Mutant






 Marmatag wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
 Elbows wrote:
Daemons are one of those things which really shouldn't be its own army...and the penalties of a weak list come with the territory. That being said, you can probably luck out and get a win in...maaaybe.


And why shouldn't Daemons be their own army?


People use this to justify anything that isn't good in the meta. Playing Grey Knights i get this all the time. Yeah they're super weak on their own but Grey Knights aren't supposed to be a standalone army. It's frustrating.


In certain situations, 'support' armies kick ass. For example!

Space Wolves didn't stand a chance in hell against my Khorne Daemons.
   
Made in us
Powerful Phoenix Lord





Has absolutely nothing to do with meta at all. You want daemons? They should be in an all-inclusive Chaos book and you should simply run Daemons. Same with Grey Knights - they warrant nothing more than a small section in a broader Imperial Agents book. Same goes for Harlequins for Eldar. These are all small factions which received armies (consisting of a whopping hanful of units) because GW realized they could sell you another $35-40 book. That's weak sauce. Not to mention it does tend to make pretty boring armies.
   
Made in us
Stalwart Tribune





Washington State

 Elbows wrote:
Has absolutely nothing to do with meta at all. You want daemons? They should be in an all-inclusive Chaos book and you should simply run Daemons. Same with Grey Knights - they warrant nothing more than a small section in a broader Imperial Agents book. Same goes for Harlequins for Eldar. These are all small factions which received armies (consisting of a whopping hanful of units) because GW realized they could sell you another $35-40 book. That's weak sauce. Not to mention it does tend to make pretty boring armies.


Except for the fact that Daemons have a HUGE range of models compared to those other two factions. I could see GK and Harlies in a bigger book, but Daemons have more kits and units than Admech which is a standalone faction.

Civilization is the progress toward a society of privacy. The savage's whole existence is public, ruled by the laws of his tribe. Civilization is the process of setting man free from men. 
   
Made in ca
Monstrously Massive Big Mutant






 thekerrick wrote:
 Elbows wrote:
Has absolutely nothing to do with meta at all. You want daemons? They should be in an all-inclusive Chaos book and you should simply run Daemons. Same with Grey Knights - they warrant nothing more than a small section in a broader Imperial Agents book. Same goes for Harlequins for Eldar. These are all small factions which received armies (consisting of a whopping hanful of units) because GW realized they could sell you another $35-40 book. That's weak sauce. Not to mention it does tend to make pretty boring armies.


Except for the fact that Daemons have a HUGE range of models compared to those other two factions. I could see GK and Harlies in a bigger book, but Daemons have more kits and units than Admech which is a standalone faction.


Yeah, not really. Tzeech and Nurgle have an 'ok' range, and Khorne/Slaanesh are lucky to see more than 4 unique model types hit the board, in any point value. As a keyword? Absolutely! But you aren't going to be playing mixed God usually, because of how hard of a draw back it is to have two halves of an army not benefit eachother in terms of HQ buffs, traits and strats.
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle





In My Lab

Daemons are infinite. Daemons are endless. Daemons are one of the primary drivers of conflict in the Imperium If they don't deserve to be a stand-alone army, what does?

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in us
Clousseau





East Bay, Ca, US

How can you say GK don't deserve to be a standalone army... if they were good, then they would. That's like claiming they are supposed to be bad. I mean wtf

 Galas wrote:
I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you

Bharring wrote:
He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
 
   
Made in us
Storm Trooper with Maglight






 Marmatag wrote:
How can you say GK don't deserve to be a standalone army... if they were good, then they would. That's like claiming they are supposed to be bad. I mean wtf


The idea comes form the fact that both Daemons and Grey Knights were split off from larger armies in 4th/5th edition. Before then Daemon's were part of Chaos Marines and the GK book was Inquisition, Stormtroopers, Grey Knights, and the ability to take either regular Space Marines, or Guardsmen. Due to the split off, the armies lost a bit of their ability to deal with things that missing units would have been able to handle (Daemons lost most Chaos Marine stuff, GK lost direct access to stormtroopers, inquisitors, and guardsmen), though with allies now a thing it can be fairly easily replicated.

Not saying I agree with it. Daemons at least have a decent spread of models (that I don't know the rules well enough for to contribute meaningfully to the main topic here), but Grey Knights definitely lost their chaff units in the transition and gained all of one or two new units to fill the gap.



To the topic at hand: If your opponent is only playing 500 points of Conscripts and support, you might be ok once you get into melee, and playing to the new codex might actually be to your advantage - with a 50% chance of accepting orders your opponent will have to waste their cp on rerolls to either frfsrf or fall back and shoot. Throw a few sacrificial lamb units to the forefront to soak up their fire/overwatch, and you might be able to achieve something. Mind you, if it is a wall of conscripts plus a Leman Russ or something, this advice is kind of moot
   
Made in us
Stalwart Tribune





Washington State

 vaklor4 wrote:
 thekerrick wrote:
 Elbows wrote:
Has absolutely nothing to do with meta at all. You want daemons? They should be in an all-inclusive Chaos book and you should simply run Daemons. Same with Grey Knights - they warrant nothing more than a small section in a broader Imperial Agents book. Same goes for Harlequins for Eldar. These are all small factions which received armies (consisting of a whopping hanful of units) because GW realized they could sell you another $35-40 book. That's weak sauce. Not to mention it does tend to make pretty boring armies.


Except for the fact that Daemons have a HUGE range of models compared to those other two factions. I could see GK and Harlies in a bigger book, but Daemons have more kits and units than Admech which is a standalone faction.


Yeah, not really. Tzeech and Nurgle have an 'ok' range, and Khorne/Slaanesh are lucky to see more than 4 unique model types hit the board, in any point value. As a keyword? Absolutely! But you aren't going to be playing mixed God usually, because of how hard of a draw back it is to have two halves of an army not benefit eachother in terms of HQ buffs, traits and strats.


I wasnt addressing the fact that a daemon army may not be viable, but the fact that it was claimed daemons were a small range of minis that had their own codex made as a cash grab. Daemons have absolutely enough models to be given their own book. More minis than a large portion of the armies in the game. Regulating them to a "Agents of Chaos" book would be stupid.

Civilization is the progress toward a society of privacy. The savage's whole existence is public, ruled by the laws of his tribe. Civilization is the process of setting man free from men. 
   
Made in ca
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord






The actual problem with Daemons is that for two editions they were largely designed as ONE army, when they're really suppose to be four; Khorne Daemons are suppose to handle heavy armor units, Tzeentch are the shooters and buffers, Slaanesh are the horde killers and speedsters, and Nurgle are the campers. The non-aligned Daemons then fill in the blanks. However they don't quite do the job as well as if you just went with a mix-god force (a Soul Grinder brings some nice shooting but Horrors and a LoC is so much better, while a DP can fill the hole of a melee monster but a BT or KoS rips so much more face). This is why i say Daemons function better with CSM allies, as even specialized CSM can still do other jobs decently (Plague Marines are still campers like Plaguebearers, but they have some combat tricks and can bring some serious firepower in special weapons).

The split happened roughly around the time Hordes of Chaos became Warriors of Chaos and Daemons of Chaos, which was probably the actual reason since before then it was impossible to field a pure daemon army (as you needed a CSM unit to summon them) and GW was slowly moving 40k daemons closer to fantasy Daemons.

Honestly, we need a "Chaos Legions" book with Daemons, all of the CSM (including DG and T-Sons) and some traitor guard thrown in. Then will chaos be complete.

Gwar! wrote:Huh, I had no idea Graham McNeillm Dav Torpe and Pete Haines posted on Dakka. Hi Graham McNeillm Dav Torpe and Pete Haines!!!!!!!!!!!!! Can I have an Autograph!


Kanluwen wrote:
Hell, I'm not that bothered by the Stormraven. Why? Because, as it stands right now, it's "limited use".When it's shoehorned in to the Codex: Space Marines, then yeah. I'll be irked.


When I'm editing alot, you know I have a gakload of homework to (not) do. 
   
 
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