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 Imateria wrote:

That trait will help large squads of Wraithblades and makes Wraithlords and Knights, as well as all of the Falcon chassis vehicles much better. I might even play my Lynx again. You'r right though that it does nothing for Wraithguard. You're also assuming that Guardians will stay at 8pts each, I'd hope they drop to 6 myself, which would make 20 man squads much more viable (though probably something Ulthwe will make more use of).

Like I said, I know that other people are a lot more positive on the similar Guard doctrine, but I really don't see why this is that helpful for big stuff. In my experience, at most two but almost always just one of my big units uses a damaged profile on some but not most of my turns. The effect of this Attribute on an army with a bunch of Wraithlords or knights is basically: "sometimes one of them gets 1-2" of extra movement and +1 to hit for a turn". It's a little more pronounced with the grav tanks since there it's 4" of extra movement instead, but still this is the sort of effect that would maybe be worth only a couple of CP over the course of a game.

The effect on infantry is definitely a lot stronger. I am not sure that you would want big units of Guardians with this trait even at 6 points, though. Every reasonable army is going to be prepared to deal with at least 60 or so Conscripts who also only lose one model to morale, or large numbers of Infantry in separate squads which are fairly morale-resistant. Guardians die just the same and they're actually less likely to get to do any effective shooting before they get hit with a bunch of bolters.


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 Elbows wrote:
I'm actually curious - because they have not stated what units will benefit from the Craftworld traits. They mention the Wraithknight (and tanks), so it seems perhaps more of an Imperial Guard depth trait - vs. Space Marines (sorry...they're taking it in the pants lately).

I'd like to see what units are impacted.

PS: The Iyanden trait is going to make Wave Serpents extra-filthy if they're not properly nerfed.

It's not like Wave Serpents have good firepower for their cost anyway. They're also in competition with things like the now-cheaper Valkyrie, which moves farther and also lets units disembark after it moves. But yes, it'll be interesting to see what gets Attributes and what doesn't. With Guard, there was a natural way to exclude flyers, which may have been important. Presumably Eldar get it on infantry and bikes, and apparently grav tanks and wraithlords/knights, but it'd be surprising to see flyers and things like the FW LoW flyers get it (this might explain the new WRAITH CONSTRUCT keyword, since the Hemlock shares SPIRIT HOST in the index).

A Wave Serpent is far better points-wise at the moment than anything else in the Grav Tank arsenal. They're frustratingly strong if you spam them. It's not uncommon to see 5 of them in a game at my local club --- that's not easy to take down with most armies. I think they're a bit broken at the moment given their cost.

 Elbows wrote:
A Wave Serpent is far better points-wise at the moment than anything else in the Grav Tank arsenal. They're frustratingly strong if you spam them. It's not uncommon to see 5 of them in a game at my local club --- that's not easy to take down with most armies. I think they're a bit broken at the moment given their cost.

I mean, they're about the same as new Valkyries in cost and durability and offensive potential. They're maybe a little more durable (vs shooting) but they're much worse as transports. They're a bit more durable than Razorbacks per point while being far less shooty. New tauroxes are basically hugely better versions of Sentinels. This is just how lots of transports are in 8th; they're some of the best units in their armies. But yes, they're a lot better than other grav tanks because other grav tanks are terrible.

Nobody is fielding Wave Serpents just to field Wave Serpents, even. People are bringing them in part to transport things, and often the stuff they're transporting is clearly paying more than what it should cost in a vacuum because it has access to a Serpent. Edit: I don't think a Serpent nerf would be crazy but it would probably need to come with big buffs to almost everything that can ride in them.

They're far better though, when equipped with the Eldar vehicle wargear...making them really damn good (and I don't think anyone uses them to actually transport stuff except during deployment). If you're playing power level - they didn't do any math to calculate running all four pieces of Eldar wargear...which someone does at my club.

That makes them monsters for 9 power or whatever...lol.

PS: I suppose I mean powerful for Eldar...which at the moment, suck. So take that with a grain of salt. It's one of the few potent units in the army till the Codex drops.

 Elbows wrote:
A Wave Serpent is far better points-wise at the moment than anything else in the Grav Tank arsenal. They're frustratingly strong if you spam them. It's not uncommon to see 5 of them in a game at my local club --- that's not easy to take down with most armies. I think they're a bit broken at the moment given their cost.

I agree that it might be frustrating, but it's definitely not "frustratingly strong." Just kind of annoying, imo. I usually run one or two.

Oh, I have two and don't mind running them, but I don't run them with all the free vehicle upgrades if I'm playing power. That's just a bit silly. Power-wise they need to remove the wargear options, or bump the cost of Wave Serpents --- or drop the cost of the actual tank versions, etc. The whole grav tank force needs fixin'.

PS: I'll bet money that Saim-Hann's craftworld trait will involve moving without heavy weapon penalties, etc.

I honestly don't know how the Elder Index played (some people told me it was fine, some told me it was weak) but I honestly don't care as long as it is balanced and on par with the previous codex armies. However langue in this new faction focus really makes em worry about power creep. GW outright says: "These guys are already an efficient HQ choice for a Craftworlds army, and have even seen a reduction in cost, now a steal at 45 points, only 10 more than a Warlock!". Now stop me if I am wrong (as I don't know how these units played) but saying a unit was efficient for their points and then reducing their points just doesn't seem right!?!?! That's now how you balance a game GW! If the unit is efficient then leave them alone as they are balanced! If they're too efficient then boost their points don't reduce them?

 lolman1c wrote:
I honestly don't know how the Elder Index played (some people told me it was fine, some told me it was weak) but I honestly don't care as long as it is balanced and on par with the previous codex armies. However langue in this new faction focus really makes em worry about power creep. GW outright says: "These guys are already an efficient HQ choice for a Craftworlds army, and have even seen a reduction in cost, now a steal at 45 points, only 10 more than a Warlock!". Now stop me if I am wrong (as I don't know how these units played) but saying a unit was efficient for their points and then reducing their points just doesn't seem right!?!?! That's now how you balance a game GW! If the unit is efficient then leave them alone as they are balanced! If they're too efficient then boost their points don't reduce them?

Assuming no other changes, Spiritseers are now very similar to Primaris Psykers except they're slightly more expensive and have a finicky buff that applies to certain of your units attacking enemies within 6" of the Spiritseer. Nobody was using them before. In general these Warhammer Community articles have tended to be more positive than is justified about basically everything they bring up -- their goal tends to be to excite players of the faction about the thing they're talking about. "This unit is no longer total garbage" is not something they're likely to say.

The index (particularly compared to codex armies) was rather weak, with a handful of decent units --- which you had to spam to really be useful.

The continuing issue is that you're fielding an army of Toughness three models which need to get within 12-18" of an enemy to kill some. (read: within charge range or rapid fire range of a very shooty version of the game). On top of that they're damn pricey (at least power-level wise) for what you get.

A comparison: 10 power level got you 10 swooping hawks (tough 3, 4+ armour, with fancy lasguns) or it gets you three obliteratos (3 wounds a piece, with great guns, and terminator armour). There was little comparison and survivability outside of stuffing everything in wave serpents. Tanks were generally a bit expensive but okay. Avatar was damn pricey for his performance...Warlocks are heinously weak/bad...and all psykers were laughable in close combat with piss-poor weaponry. Dreadnoughts were okay but degraded because of their 10 wounds so they were a little less useful than others.

Zero ability to really deal with horde armies. Just a bit frustrating to play unless you went for only a handful of units. I hope that's fixed in the Codex...but again, without being super-broken power creep (which is definitely the trend at the moment).

Dionysodorus wrote:
"This unit is no longer total garbage" is not something they're likely to say.

Yes, when I read that line about Spiritseers I was thinking "that's a flat out lie". Maybe they'll be worth it with multiple changes, but as per Index rules I could never find a reason to bring a Spiritseer to buff 6" wraiths as opposed to a Autarch to buff 12" *everyone*.

Quark wrote:

Dionysodorus wrote:
"This unit is no longer total garbage" is not something they're likely to say.

Yes, when I read that line about Spiritseers I was thinking "that's a flat out lie". Maybe they'll be worth it with multiple changes, but as per Index rules I could never find a reason to bring a Spiritseer to buff 6" wraiths as opposed to a Autarch to buff 12" *everyone*.

Truth be told Autarch buff is 6" too but there is a huge difference between buff units within 6, than buff units attacking enemies at 6" of the character as it forced you to bring the Spiritseer almost into melee range in order to be effective for similar point cost.

Add too the loss of the 2nd psy power from 7th and that explains why we ended with overcosted Spiritseers (they retained the price but lost the psy power) another proof of perfectly balanced index stats.

 lolman1c wrote:
GW outright says: "These guys are already an efficient HQ choice for a Craftworlds army, and have even seen a reduction in cost, now a steal at 45 points, only 10 more than a Warlock!". Now stop me if I am wrong (as I don't know how these units played) but saying a unit was efficient for their points and then reducing their points just doesn't seem right!?!?! That's now how you balance a game GW! If the unit is efficient then leave them alone as they are balanced! If they're too efficient then boost their points don't reduce them?

Lol, spiritseers.

They were completely and totally useless in the index, and were massively overpriced. At 45 points... They might actually be worth taking, just about. They're certainly better than an index warlock, which was even worse overpriced garbage. Hopefully warlocks either get a huge buff, or dropped to like 20 points.

Edit: if warlocks don't get changed, there is no point in taking one. For 10 points more you can take a spiritseer, which is what a warlock should be.

If spiritseers gain the ability to take a jet bike, that would be interesting. Probably not though.

What does "Made to Order" mean?

xmbk wrote:
What does "Made to Order" mean?

It mean they only make it if you order. Unlike most product when they have it on the warehouse ready for shipment.

Yep, and the "made to order" is basically a week or so they'll take orders - then that's it. They produce what was ordered/sold and ship it in around 3-4 weeks. Produced in metal (hell yes) and then that's it...no more.

I assume the codex is pre-order, the models made to order?

xmbk wrote:
What does "Made to Order" mean?

Old out of productions models who aren't made anymore.

Most of those are classic from metal era, and very rare to find as example a 2nd hand bonesinger often goes for a lot in ebay.

Well that faction focus nails it. The new SC and my unbuilt Wraithguard are definitely going with Iyanden yellow instead of Ynnari crimson

Honestly, short of vehicles degrading I'm not seeing a ton of reason to go Iyanden (though we obviously haven't seen everything laid out yet). But just the normal buffs to Wraithguard and Wraithlords is pretty massive. That alone will make them more potent/useful.

I'm still waiting for the Saim-Hann and Ulthwe faction focus before I start really getting hyped. I want my bikes to be somewhat competitive again (since they have been the core of my army since 4th ed).

I get a sinking feeling that the Saim-Hann traits will be more like White Scars and thus not very good. But the Black Guardian rules might be good for them.
BG Windriders are still on the GW website, so it is likely that <Black Guardian> applies to all units with the <Guardian> keyword (which Windriders have).
Deep-strike shenanigans would at least make they playable since they wouldn't get wiped before getting a turn.

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 Elbows wrote:
Honestly, short of vehicles degrading I'm not seeing a ton of reason to go Iyanden (though we obviously haven't seen everything laid out yet). But just the normal buffs to Wraithguard and Wraithlords is pretty massive. That alone will make them more potent/useful.

Also worth to notice the Wraith Toughness buff seems to refer as a built in codex Datasheets and not specific to Iyanden only.

So i hope some other relics, stratagems or even Psychics disciplines can bring something else to the table for Iyanden.

Lord Perversor wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
Honestly, short of vehicles degrading I'm not seeing a ton of reason to go Iyanden (though we obviously haven't seen everything laid out yet). But just the normal buffs to Wraithguard and Wraithlords is pretty massive. That alone will make them more potent/useful.

Also worth to notice the Wraith Toughness buff seems to refer as a built in codex Datasheets and not specific to Iyanden only.

So i hope some other relics, stratagems or even Psychics disciplines can bring something else to the table for Iyanden.

We know the Iyanden relic already -- it was shown in the announcement of the codex. And the stratagem is here. It is possible that there are Craftworld-specific psychic powers, but probably the only thing we're missing is their warlord trait. And it's still possible that they make Wraithguard Troops, but you'd think that would be mentioned in this article.

I will take making WG objective secured. I run spiritseers now for cheap smite spam and HQ. Put the Autuarch on bike and move the +1 by bubble around to where it is needed. I have had good success running Index biel-tan and can’t wait until Friday!

Dionysodorus wrote:

We know the Iyanden relic already -- it was shown in the announcement of the codex. And the stratagem is here. It is possible that there are Craftworld-specific psychic powers, but probably the only thing we're missing is their warlord trait. And it's still possible that they make Wraithguard Troops, but you'd think that would be mentioned in this article.

I think you found the best way to go about making things troops. Having it as the warlord trait would mean you couldn't bring a battalion of Iyanden troop Wraithguard with a battalion of Biel-tan troops aspect warriors as you only get one warlord trait. Or they could come up with some sort of restriction for any rule changing things to troops.

How does it work in the chaos book? Can you take troop world eater bezerkers in one detachment and troop noise marines in a different Detachment in the same army?

 Elbows wrote:
Yep, and the "made to order" is basically a week or so they'll take orders - then that's it. They produce what was ordered/sold and ship it in around 3-4 weeks. Produced in metal (hell yes) and then that's it...no more.

Are you sure these are going to be metal and not Failcast? I am tempted by the Bonesinger and the Ranger, just because it is nice to add variety to a squad.

 Korlandril wrote:
How does it work in the chaos book? Can you take troop world eater bezerkers in one detachment and troop noise marines in a different Detachment in the same army?

Yup. Can technically even take troop WE zerkers and troop EC noisies in the same detachment, although that would make them miss out on their legion traits.


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 Karhedron wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
Yep, and the "made to order" is basically a week or so they'll take orders - then that's it. They produce what was ordered/sold and ship it in around 3-4 weeks. Produced in metal (hell yes) and then that's it...no more.

Are you sure these are going to be metal and not Failcast? I am tempted by the Bonesinger and the Ranger, just because it is nice to add variety to a squad.

The 40k Facebook page mentions: "Not sure on this one; the previous Made to Order models have been metal, but we shall see."
https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=1910086142645349&id=1575682476085719&comment_id=1910089549311675&reply_comment_id=1910108672643096&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R9%22%7D

No failcast that I am aware of.

I think the ones that have been done in resin will be in resin? I'm not buying any resin though so it would be a mistake to release any lol

OP is updated I will summarise the articles and make clear what's for an individual craftworld and what is your the entire codex. Will keep the made to order bit at top too so people don't miss out.

All of those miniatures were originally in metal - all of the previous made-to-order spans have been in metal.

 Elbows wrote:
All of those miniatures were originally in metal - all of the previous made-to-order spans have been in metal.

And the fb page did say they were unsure if they would all be in metal. That's why I said the ones that had been done in resin I own finecast and a metal version so we will see what they do.