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with 12ppm Avengers and Rangers and neither Guardian type getting a reduction in cost, what's the point of using guardians again?

Storm Guardians are still double-priced Chaos Cultists then. That's disappointing.

the_scotsman wrote:
with 12ppm Avengers and Rangers and neither Guardian type getting a reduction in cost, what's the point of using guardians again?

Storm Guardians are still double-priced Chaos Cultists then. That's disappointing.

Even if the avenger catapults are free, Guardians still shoot 25% better when they're in range and are only 6% less durable compared to a 5-man Avenger squad with dual-wielding Exarch, so may still make sense as suicide drops from a Serpent, which is probably what you're using Avengers for too.

the_scotsman wrote:
with 12ppm Avengers and Rangers and neither Guardian type getting a reduction in cost, what's the point of using guardians again?

Storm Guardians are still double-priced Chaos Cultists then. That's disappointing.

They are Ugly as F***. With the very nice sculpts of the Dire Avengers why whould anyone use Guardians?

(Joking, before anyone jump one me )

After this codex reading I only have few things to say....

1 [MOD EDIT - Please don't try to circumvent the expletive filter - thanks! Alpharius] the traits, playb what do you like, as ulthwe I can get the same bonus of the other traits with psichic powers and viceversa

2 super drop in points guys, the thing we needed, with somne really nice buffs

3 we are definetly one of the fastest army in the game now...nothing to envy to tyranids really

look forward to have this codex in my hands

Looks like a really impressive selection of discounts and buffs. I might actually be able to manage to field a Battalion now.

I am surprised at the Hemlock getting a discount as it is one of the best aircraft in the game and the Alaitoc trait helps it even more. I wonder if it will be getting some sort of nerf to balance?

The only disappointment is the Wraithknight. I got great mileage out of mine in 7th but I think he will be reduced to a display piece. :(

With all the buffs in form of stratagems, Craftworld Traits, Psychic powers, etc... I don't know if the Wraithknight will need a point reduction.

You could end like Baneblades. You put too many buffs on a "weak" unit and then is pretty possible to make them more stronger than they should.

Personally, I'm sad with all the discounts (Obviously not all of them). But I was glad when the Indexes came and units (Specially vehicles) where more expensive, because playing a 2k army didn't needed as many models as in 7th.
For balance hotfixes, I prefer to change the rules and make units more powerfull if they are overpriced, instead of just making them cheaper.
You can make a Stompa 250 points and it would be powerfull, but something as big shouldn't cost less than 500p, for saying a random number. Make it powerfull enough to compensate.
The same goes for Eldar Rangers, or Wraithknights, etc...

I would guess that this was finalized pretty early on in the edition, though post-release. They knew that they were nerfing flyers to get the Stormraven and it wasn't yet widely known that the Hemlock was really great.

Just checked in...and the leaks are almost everything I was hoping for. Eldar will easily be competitive with some builds...and at least not wildly overpriced crap as they have been lately. Colour me happy. Vastly better news than any of the leaked traits --- the points reductions and new powers etc. are legitimate.

Wow, those are some serious buffs. Should I start feeling salty as a Mechanicus player? I'm gonna go get my salt.

So why does Howling Banshee masks make you strike first, but Jain Zar makes Howling Banshees within 6" strike first. Why?

Alaitoc powercreeped the Harlequins :(

In a manner of speaking, at least.

 nintura wrote:
So why does Howling Banshee masks make you strike first, but Jain Zar makes Howling Banshees within 6" strike first. Why?

The Banshee Mask has gone back to ignoring overwatch, which lets face it is a much better ability for t3 4+ ladies.

- Howling banshees: have seen changes. Masks allow you to attack first.

- Jain Zar: Choir of the War Unending – All banshees fight first within 6″ of her.


So my guess is then whoever was reporting it was just mistaken?

 ph34r wrote:
Wow, those are some serious buffs. Should I start feeling salty as a Mechanicus player? I'm gonna go get my salt.

Eldar have an above average codex. I don't think anyone's salt here was or still is merited...

Suzuteo wrote:

 ph34r wrote:
Wow, those are some serious buffs. Should I start feeling salty as a Mechanicus player? I'm gonna go get my salt.

Eldar have an above average codex. I don't think anyone's salt here was or still is merited...

I mean, some people went overboard about how the whole thing would be bad when that was obviously going to depend mostly on point costs and unit rules, but I think it's perfectly fair for basically everyone except Ulthwe and Alatoic fans to be annoyed about the traits.

Dionysodorus wrote:

Suzuteo wrote:

 ph34r wrote:
Wow, those are some serious buffs. Should I start feeling salty as a Mechanicus player? I'm gonna go get my salt.

Eldar have an above average codex. I don't think anyone's salt here was or still is merited...

I mean, some people went overboard about how the whole thing would be bad when that was obviously going to depend mostly on point costs and unit rules, but I think it's perfectly fair for basically everyone except Ulthwe and Alatoic fans to be annoyed about the traits.

If you want to play fluff, don't expect competitive benefits for the troops you ENJOY playing. It is actually very hard to make one attribute that applies to multiple units without imbalancing the codexes with the most unit options. (See Guard for a good example.)

Suzuteo wrote:

If you want to play fluff, don't expect competitive benefits for the troops you ENJOY playing. It is actually very hard to make one attribute that applies to multiple units without imbalancing the codexes with the most unit options. (See Guard for a good example.)

This seems like a pretty weird response to me. Like, first, okay, but it still seems perfectly reasonable to be annoyed if the Craftworld you enjoy seems to have been left behind. Second, "it's hard to balance traits that hit everything" does not really seem to be something that was on their minds, right? Alatoic's trait is absolutely nuts on things like flyers and Shadow Spectres -- they have the one trait that everyone knew going in was really, really dangerous if applied to everything. Meanwhile Biel-Tan can't even get re-roll 1s for Swooping Hawks, and Iyanden ends up with something that's almost strictly worse than Ulthwe's.

Suzuteo wrote:

Dionysodorus wrote:

Suzuteo wrote:

 ph34r wrote:
Wow, those are some serious buffs. Should I start feeling salty as a Mechanicus player? I'm gonna go get my salt.

Eldar have an above average codex. I don't think anyone's salt here was or still is merited...

I mean, some people went overboard about how the whole thing would be bad when that was obviously going to depend mostly on point costs and unit rules, but I think it's perfectly fair for basically everyone except Ulthwe and Alatoic fans to be annoyed about the traits.

If you want to play fluff, don't expect competitive benefits for the troops you ENJOY playing. It is actually very hard to make one attribute that applies to multiple units without imbalancing the codexes with the most unit options. (See Guard for a good example.)

So you'd expect me to use Biel-Tan's trait in an all Aspect army that has no Shuriken Weapons (other than a few pistols) and The Avatar making the +1 Ld worthless? No thanks.

How do the Phoenix Lords look in 8th?

Especially my favorite, Karandras?

We don't know yet. They didn't spoil very much about them in the codex cast

Ah, sorry, I thought someone had an early copy or was going off of leaked info - my apologies!

Dionysodorus wrote:

Suzuteo wrote:

 ph34r wrote:
Wow, those are some serious buffs. Should I start feeling salty as a Mechanicus player? I'm gonna go get my salt.

Eldar have an above average codex. I don't think anyone's salt here was or still is merited...

I mean, some people went overboard about how the whole thing would be bad when that was obviously going to depend mostly on point costs and unit rules, but I think it's perfectly fair for basically everyone except Ulthwe and Alatoic fans to be annoyed about the traits.

In fairness, the traits were a little underwhelming, and I don't think ANYONE was expecting the points changes to be so significant. I was expecting drops of maybe 1 or 2 points per model... Rangers being almost HALF PRICE made me actually giggle a little bit in surprise. I'm at work, so I may have drawn a couple of funny looks. Always liked Rangers, but they've never been good... sniper rules are generally bad and they were always expensive. Now they are actually viable. Still not great, but for a troops choice being able to spam shots at character and still be tough to kill is actually a possible niche. I'm probably going to forgo guardians and avengers and actually take Rangers as troops.

My lists from the index had ZERO troops, because I didnt like guardians (plus they're awful) and Rangers were so expensive it took too much from my other units to field even one or two squads, and 10 rangers can barely do anything. Now I'm actually tempted to take 30 rangers for 360 points...

And Falcons dropping by 50 points? That's about 500% more of a discount than I was expecting.

Overall, great changes. The only potential issue I might have for it is if the WK is not reduced in price, or bumped in T, or something. I don't want it to be as obscenely good as it was in 7th, but as it currently is, it is hot garbage. You're literally better of taking 2 Prisms and any melee unit, and still having points left over
Which truly is a shame because it is one of my favorite models GW has ever produced.

-

 Alpharius wrote:
Ah, sorry, I thought someone had an early copy or was going off of leaked info - my apologies!

Those who get early copies seem to be under a NDA (or some such agreement) until after the codex goes on preorder. Expect to see some info Saturday at the earliest.

Dionysodorus wrote:

Suzuteo wrote:

If you want to play fluff, don't expect competitive benefits for the troops you ENJOY playing. It is actually very hard to make one attribute that applies to multiple units without imbalancing the codexes with the most unit options. (See Guard for a good example.)

This seems like a pretty weird response to me. Like, first, okay, but it still seems perfectly reasonable to be annoyed if the Craftworld you enjoy seems to have been left behind. Second, "it's hard to balance traits that hit everything" does not really seem to be something that was on their minds, right? Alatoic's trait is absolutely nuts on things like flyers and Shadow Spectres -- they have the one trait that everyone knew going in was really, really dangerous if applied to everything. Meanwhile Biel-Tan can't even get re-roll 1s for Swooping Hawks, and Iyanden ends up with something that's almost strictly worse than Ulthwe's.

I don't think any of the Craftworlds have been left behind. But then again, I am an AdMech player, and only two of our seven Forge Worlds have any use whatsoever.

I meant that it is hard to make powerful traits that broadly apply to multiple model types while remaining balanced. -1 to hit at 12" does seem to be the strongest generic though. I definitely enjoy the AdMech version, which is paired with an Infiltrate stratagem.

Actually, I think Iyanden's is better than Ulthwe's in some circumstances.

 DivineVisitor wrote:

So you'd expect me to use Biel-Tan's trait in an all Aspect army that has no Shuriken Weapons (other than a few pistols) and The Avatar making the +1 Ld worthless? No thanks.

Uh yeah. Where'd you get the idea that Biel-Tan Aspect Warriors eschew Shuriken weapons?

Suzuteo wrote:

Dionysodorus wrote:

Suzuteo wrote:

If you want to play fluff, don't expect competitive benefits for the troops you ENJOY playing. It is actually very hard to make one attribute that applies to multiple units without imbalancing the codexes with the most unit options. (See Guard for a good example.)

This seems like a pretty weird response to me. Like, first, okay, but it still seems perfectly reasonable to be annoyed if the Craftworld you enjoy seems to have been left behind. Second, "it's hard to balance traits that hit everything" does not really seem to be something that was on their minds, right? Alatoic's trait is absolutely nuts on things like flyers and Shadow Spectres -- they have the one trait that everyone knew going in was really, really dangerous if applied to everything. Meanwhile Biel-Tan can't even get re-roll 1s for Swooping Hawks, and Iyanden ends up with something that's almost strictly worse than Ulthwe's.

I don't think any of the Craftworlds have been left behind. But then again, I am an AdMech player, and only two of our seven Forge Worlds have any use whatsoever.

I meant that it is hard to make powerful traits that broadly apply to multiple model types while remaining balanced. -1 to hit at 12" does seem to be the strongest generic though. I definitely enjoy the AdMech version, which is paired with an Infiltrate stratagem.

Actually, I think Iyanden's is better than Ulthwe's in some circumstances.

Sure. For a tank army, Iyanden is rather good.
Ulthwe adds a bit more to both aspects and wraith units (because the models are more valuable)

 DivineVisitor wrote:

So you'd expect me to use Biel-Tan's trait in an all Aspect army that has no Shuriken Weapons (other than a few pistols) and The Avatar making the +1 Ld worthless? No thanks.

Uh yeah. Where'd you get the idea that Biel-Tan Aspect Warriors eschew Shuriken weapons?

If you take fire dragons, dark reapers, spiders or swooping hawks, being Biel tan is completely meaningless. What the trait is actually good for is spamming guardians- exactly the opposite of what they're supposed to do.

Suzuteo wrote:

Uh yeah. Where'd you get the idea that Biel-Tan Aspect Warriors eschew Shuriken weapons?

Well apart from dire avengers no aspect gets notable boost from that. So if you take biel tan trait better spam dire avengers. Or better yet jet bikes.

Well, striking scorpions still have shuriken pistols, so it could help them some.

Some of the stuff revealed is really good, I think my 10 man Ranger unit is back in to my list now. No indication that the Fire Prism has had a points reduction though which is very disappointing, I suspect I'm just spoilt with how amazing the Ravager is but even shooting twice (and without external buffs) the Fire Prism is more expensive and less effective than the Dark Kins alternative, and that comes with a 5++ stock. Falcon still looks overpriced, even at 146pts.

So wait - ALL Eldar units benefit from these traits?

Is my 4th Edition Grav Tank Parking lot list back in business?

Can someone confirm this before I die of anticipation