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 Unit1126PLL wrote:
LOL @ "Screenhammer 40k"

The internet for a million years:
"I want infantry to be relevant again! Too many big things! Too much eliteism! Too much deathstars!"

Later that century...

"OMG There's too much infantry! Every army has to bring cheap bodies now! How are we supposed to play the game? These cheap bodies are too good how do I deathstar?"

Well one could hope for the golden middle where unless you have access to dirt cheap screen units to die you are screwed. Good luck armies without access to those natively or by alliance.

tneva82 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
LOL @ "Screenhammer 40k"

The internet for a million years:
"I want infantry to be relevant again! Too many big things! Too much eliteism! Too much deathstars!"

Later that century...

"OMG There's too much infantry! Every army has to bring cheap bodies now! How are we supposed to play the game? These cheap bodies are too good how do I deathstar?"

Well one could hope for the golden middle where unless you have access to dirt cheap screen units to die you are screwed. Good luck armies without access to those natively or by alliance.

Every single army has access to units that are capable of screening. Eldar have razorwing flocks and rangers, necrons have scarabs, Tau have kroot hounds, drones, and pathfinders, Orks have grots and Boyz.

And if you want to be a pure army?

What do Eldar have without going DEldar? What do Grey Knights have, in their Codex? Harlequins?

 JNAProductions wrote:
And if you want to be a pure army?

What do Eldar have without going DEldar? What do Grey Knights have, in their Codex? Harlequins?

If you want to be a pure army then you're handicapping yourself on purpose. It's not the rules fault if you don't take advantage of the things available to you.

Don't say you don't have the option because you do. You're choosing not to take it.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

"I want infantry to be relevant again! Too many big things! Too much eliteism! Too much deathstars!"

Later that century...

"OMG There's too much infantry! Every army has to bring cheap bodies now! How are we supposed to play the game? These cheap bodies are too good how do I deathstar?"

Pretty much.

Just because you can, bring all heavies or elites, doesn't make it a good idea.

Tanniith wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
And if you want to be a pure army?

What do Eldar have without going DEldar? What do Grey Knights have, in their Codex? Harlequins?

If you want to be a pure army then you're handicapping yourself on purpose. It's not the rules fault if you don't take advantage of the things available to you.

Don't say you don't have the option because you do. You're choosing not to take it.

So in other words, Grey Knights aren't a real army? What about pure Eldar? Both have their own codexes-why should I need more than one faction book?

 JNAProductions wrote:

Tanniith wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
And if you want to be a pure army?

What do Eldar have without going DEldar? What do Grey Knights have, in their Codex? Harlequins?

If you want to be a pure army then you're handicapping yourself on purpose. It's not the rules fault if you don't take advantage of the things available to you.

Don't say you don't have the option because you do. You're choosing not to take it.

So in other words, Grey Knights aren't a real army? What about pure Eldar? Both have their own codexes-why should I need more than one faction book?

Stop being obtuse. If you play Grey Knights you have plenty of options from other codices to take screen units, same with Eldar. Eldar actually have really good screen units in their rangers, but that's beside the point.

My point is, regardless of what army you play, you have access* to screen units. If you choose to handicap yourself and not take them that's your choice, but don't complain when you get tabled by a completely avoidable and foreseeable tactic.

*Having access does not necessarily mean in the same codex. It means you are able to make a battle forged army, filling in your main army's weakness with Allie's if need be.

Another user in this thread put it perfectly. If you're recognizing a weakness in your list and purposefully not fixing it, you're playing casually. Which is fine. This also means you're probably going to lose a lot to min/maxed lists which you should expect because again, you're playing a casual list against a top tier tournament list. Which is also fine.

I don't mind infantry having a use. I mind a 40 pt unit completely turning off my 250 pt unit without even firing a shot.

Martel732 wrote:
I don't mind infantry having a use. I mind a 40 pt unit completely turning off my 250 pt unit without even firing a shot.

I don't mind infantry. I mind 85pt infantry that far surpass my 120pt sorcerer while sporting natural invisibility, an insanely good gun, and a psyker nerfing aura. While being a character so I can't actually target it.

I don't mind infantry at all. I kind of mind 90pt infantry with 72" sniper rifles that ignore character rules, cover, and invulnerable saves and are guaranteed to wound on 2+ while having a 2+ BS. While also dealing D3 wounds per shot and sporting natural always-on camo on top of being untargetable because it's a bloody character.

Like... why do we even have Sorcerers and Chaos Lords? These things are way better.

I mean has anyone actually looked at the Eversor rules? For 70pts it's superior in every way to my own melee Lords or Champions while being cheaper too. More attacks, more wounds, more movement, more rules, a suicide vest, the same 4++ invuln, reroll charges, a free Power Sword while I have to pay for mine, a better pistol at no charge that rerolls wounds, and a Melta Bomb just because.

Chaos lords buff the shooting. I agree, non-cheapo psykers are dumb.

 JNAProductions wrote:

So in other words, Grey Knights aren't a real army? What about pure Eldar? Both have their own codexes-why should I need more than one faction book?

I won't speak for Eldar, but Grey Knights? No, they're not really a real army. Not till you add Inquisiton and maybe even some Storm Tro...err, "Scions". Maybe assassins also.

It starts looking like a real army at that point. At least, the army that it looked like from 3rd to 6th.

Martel732 wrote:
I don't mind infantry having a use. I mind a 40 pt unit completely turning off my 250 pt unit without even firing a shot.

Because your 250 point unit could be an 80 point unit if you stopped trying to deathstar.

An example only. Naked assault marines aren't worth using at all, not while vanguards exist. So then you are up to 90 with NO equipment.

Bottom line, death star or not, power armor melee is extremely inefficient and not worthwhile.

 daedalus wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

So in other words, Grey Knights aren't a real army? What about pure Eldar? Both have their own codexes-why should I need more than one faction book?

I won't speak for Eldar, but Grey Knights? No, they're not really a real army. Not till you add Inquisiton and maybe even some Storm Tro...err, "Scions". Maybe assassins also.

It starts looking like a real army at that point. At least, the army that it looked like from 3rd to 6th.

Maybe they want to represent a GK force that just finished killing off all of their allies and got caught up in battle before they could con some new rubes to do their heavy lifting for them? I mean, they probably have a higher kill count against 'friendlies' than they do against demons at this point.

Sure and they can do that. They just shouldn't be surprised when their fluffy narrative list gets it's teeth kicked in by a min/maxed tournament list.

If Grey Knights aren't a real army, then they shouldn't have a codex. They do have a codex, so presumably GW expects them to be a legitimate, stand-alone army.

 Arachnofiend wrote:
If Grey Knights aren't a real army, then they shouldn't have a codex. They do have a codex, so presumably GW expects them to be a legitimate, stand-alone army.

Am I to point out that for a duration, ASSASSINS had a codex?

Codex=/=stand alone competitive army.

Gk can stand on thier own as a casual/friendly army, but expecting a high specialized counter force (counter daemons in this case) to also be TAC viable is silly.
Just like expecting assassins to be stand alone viable.

 Arachnofiend wrote:
If Grey Knights aren't a real army, then they shouldn't have a codex. They do have a codex, so presumably GW expects them to be a legitimate, stand-alone army.

Sorry bud, but your teamkilling Mary Sues are best played as auxiliaries in a competitive environment. You can't reasonably expect an army designed to screw over a single type of opponent (Demons) to also be balanced against Xenos/other Imperium. Whether you think your increased ability vs demons is worth sucking vs everything else is a separate matter.

At least you're not as bad as the Deathwatch, where even winning a casual game is an uphill fight. Don't even have any anti xenos abilities to justify being terrible at everything.

Martel732 wrote:
An example only. Naked assault marines aren't worth using at all, not while vanguards exist. So then you are up to 90 with NO equipment.

Bottom line, death star or not, power armor melee is extremely inefficient and not worthwhile.

Could your list kill 110 marines?

Because if not, then that's a power-armored melee list that just beat yours. (Naked ASM + HQs is like ~110, since you can get 125 naked ASM without HQs)

That's an interesting question. MY list? No. But I've not claimed my list to be any kind of paragon of anything.

Bobby G asscannon party could.
Various IG lists yes.
Some Tyranid lists I've seen, yes.
Don't laugh, but Drukhari would have a solid shot.
Orks, probably.

16 ppm for a dude with two S4 AP 0 melee swing is just super weak in 8th ed. It just is. You can come up with hypotheticals, but I don't see a place in the meta for these kinds of units atm.

Martel732 wrote:
That's an interesting question. MY list? No. But I've not claimed my list to be any kind of paragon of anything.

Bobby G asscannon party could.
Various IG lists yes.
Some Tyranid lists I've seen, yes.
Don't laugh, but Drukhari would have a solid shot.
Orks, probably.

16 ppm for a dude with two S4 AP 0 melee swing is just super weak in 8th ed. It just is. You can come up with hypotheticals, but I don't see a place in the meta for these kinds of units atm.

I'm just trying to illustrate to you that perhaps your 250 point BA units are not the be-all end-all of power armour assault.

In fact, I hear 'zerkers are doing quite well.

 Arachnofiend wrote:
If Grey Knights aren't a real army, then they shouldn't have a codex. They do have a codex, so presumably GW expects them to be a legitimate, stand-alone army.

You're right! Just like Assassins. And Inquisition. And Knights. And Sisters of Silence.

GW totally expected those to be "legitimate, stand alone" armies, right? Or, they're pretty clearly, between the various forms of allies rules getting more and more permissive, expecting you to just dip into all of the imperium for whatever it is that your army needs.

It hasn't been 5th edition for a while now. Stop playing like it is.

 BoomWolf wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:
If Grey Knights aren't a real army, then they shouldn't have a codex. They do have a codex, so presumably GW expects them to be a legitimate, stand-alone army.

Am I to point out that for a duration, ASSASSINS had a codex?

Codex=/=stand alone competitive army.

Gk can stand on thier own as a casual/friendly army, but expecting a high specialized counter force (counter daemons in this case) to also be TAC viable is silly.
Just like expecting assassins to be stand alone viable.

I'm not sure I'm in agreement with your idea that Assassins can't be stand alone viable. The assassins this edition range from 70pts to 90pts possessing 4++ invulns and better stats/abilities than most HQs in the game. They're CHEAPER and MORE POWERFUL than a Chaos Lord and the only benefit the lord gets over them is his reroll aura, which they don't need since they reroll things innately. One even possesses a bloody Melta Bomb!! Bye bye tanks.

I think if you stick an army of Culexus assassins up front as the screeners, the enemy can only shoot at them using BS 6+. Every other unit in the army is untargetable due to Character rules in the shooting phase. So your invisible army marches forward while supported by invulnerable-save-ignoring Vindicares that snipe all your characters until the Eversor force gets into CQC range where it is undoubtedly the most cost effective close combat unit in the game, even possessing individual suicide vests that will mortal wound to death the remaining forces they engage, all for 70pts each.

I think a pure assassin list is totally doable. They just wouldn't have any stratagems. Yet. (prays for Officio Assassinorum codex)

 Arkaine wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:
If Grey Knights aren't a real army, then they shouldn't have a codex. They do have a codex, so presumably GW expects them to be a legitimate, stand-alone army.

Am I to point out that for a duration, ASSASSINS had a codex?

Codex=/=stand alone competitive army.

Gk can stand on thier own as a casual/friendly army, but expecting a high specialized counter force (counter daemons in this case) to also be TAC viable is silly.
Just like expecting assassins to be stand alone viable.

I'm not sure I'm in agreement with your idea that Assassins can't be stand alone viable. The assassins this edition range from 70pts to 90pts possessing 4++ invulns and better stats/abilities than most HQs in the game. They're CHEAPER and MORE POWERFUL than a Chaos Lord and the only benefit the lord gets over them is his reroll aura, which they don't need since they reroll things innately. One even possesses a bloody Melta Bomb!! Bye bye tanks.

I think if you stick an army of Culexus assassins up front as the screeners, the enemy can only shoot at them using BS 6+. Every other unit in the army is untargetable due to Character rules in the shooting phase. So your invisible army marches forward while supported by invulnerable-save-ignoring Vindicares that snipe all your characters until the Eversor force gets into CQC range where it is undoubtedly the most cost effective close combat unit in the game, even possessing individual suicide vests that will mortal wound to death the remaining forces they engage, all for 70pts each.

I think a pure assassin list is totally doable. They just wouldn't have any stratagems. Yet. (prays for Officio Assassinorum codex)

So, uh, your army, who are the HQ's? Or are you just bringing 3 assassins and have 0 CP?

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
That's an interesting question. MY list? No. But I've not claimed my list to be any kind of paragon of anything.

Bobby G asscannon party could.
Various IG lists yes.
Some Tyranid lists I've seen, yes.
Don't laugh, but Drukhari would have a solid shot.
Orks, probably.

16 ppm for a dude with two S4 AP 0 melee swing is just super weak in 8th ed. It just is. You can come up with hypotheticals, but I don't see a place in the meta for these kinds of units atm.

I'm just trying to illustrate to you that perhaps your 250 point BA units are not the be-all end-all of power armour assault.

In fact, I hear 'zerkers are doing quite well.

My lord. I was just throwing that number out there as a worst case to clearly demonstrate my point. Death guard exists, you know. To hit a DG unit hard enough in melee, you have to pack in some pretty costly gear to at least SOME of the squads. The whole thing just balloons out of control quickly and then you realize you can just shoot everything forget melee. The fact that DG and screens exist, sometimes in the same list, REALLY makes melee hard to do. We change the 250 pt squad to a 130 pt squad, and still have identical problems with screens. The 250 pt squad is obviously a poor idea in 8th.

 Arkaine wrote:

I'm not sure I'm in agreement with your idea that Assassins can't be stand alone viable. The assassins this edition range from 70pts to 90pts possessing 4++ invulns and better stats/abilities than most HQs in the game. They're CHEAPER and MORE POWERFUL than a Chaos Lord and the only benefit the lord gets over them is his reroll aura, which they don't need since they reroll things innately. One even possesses a bloody Melta Bomb!! Bye bye tanks.

In previous editions when they were a standalone codex, they lacked an HQ. They still lack an HQ in the index, which is, as far as I can tell, literally the only limiting factor in being a stand-alone detachment that's not a auxiliary.

Martel732 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
That's an interesting question. MY list? No. But I've not claimed my list to be any kind of paragon of anything.

Bobby G asscannon party could.
Various IG lists yes.
Some Tyranid lists I've seen, yes.
Don't laugh, but Drukhari would have a solid shot.
Orks, probably.

16 ppm for a dude with two S4 AP 0 melee swing is just super weak in 8th ed. It just is. You can come up with hypotheticals, but I don't see a place in the meta for these kinds of units atm.

I'm just trying to illustrate to you that perhaps your 250 point BA units are not the be-all end-all of power armour assault.

In fact, I hear 'zerkers are doing quite well.

My lord. I was just throwing that number out there as a worst case to clearly demonstrate my point. Death guard exists, you know. To hit a DG unit hard enough in melee, you have to pack in some pretty costly gear to at least SOME of the squads. The whole thing just balloons out of control quickly and then you realize you can just shoot everything forget melee. The fact that DG and screens exist, sometimes in the same list, REALLY makes melee hard to do. We change the 250 pt squad to a 130 pt squad, and still have identical problems with screens. The 250 pt squad is obviously a poor idea in 8th.

Wait so you're saying that sometimes you have to bring different tools for different jobs and TAC has been dead since 5th ended?

Wow good catch, welcome to 8th.

Also... no, you don't have the problem with screens, because 260 points of 130 point units is way better than the 250 point unit. Because you can bring twice as much. I can do the math if you want.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
That's an interesting question. MY list? No. But I've not claimed my list to be any kind of paragon of anything.

Bobby G asscannon party could.
Various IG lists yes.
Some Tyranid lists I've seen, yes.
Don't laugh, but Drukhari would have a solid shot.
Orks, probably.

16 ppm for a dude with two S4 AP 0 melee swing is just super weak in 8th ed. It just is. You can come up with hypotheticals, but I don't see a place in the meta for these kinds of units atm.

I'm just trying to illustrate to you that perhaps your 250 point BA units are not the be-all end-all of power armour assault.

In fact, I hear 'zerkers are doing quite well.

My five man unit zerkers, 106 points with powerfist champ, were punching out grandmaster dreadknights in one fight phase (going twice in that fight phase). Zerkers are the best melee unit in the game.

40 pts screens stop 130 pts units cold. Trading 40 pts for 130 pts will lose you the game really fast.

"ait so you're saying that sometimes you have to bring different tools for different jobs and TAC has been dead since 5th ended?"

I'm saying melee power armor lists can't afford the tools in 8th and simultaneously have enough bodies to get the tools where they need to be. Berserkers might be an exception to this, but even they suffer mobility problems.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 andysonic1 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
That's an interesting question. MY list? No. But I've not claimed my list to be any kind of paragon of anything.

Bobby G asscannon party could.
Various IG lists yes.
Some Tyranid lists I've seen, yes.
Don't laugh, but Drukhari would have a solid shot.
Orks, probably.

16 ppm for a dude with two S4 AP 0 melee swing is just super weak in 8th ed. It just is. You can come up with hypotheticals, but I don't see a place in the meta for these kinds of units atm.

I'm just trying to illustrate to you that perhaps your 250 point BA units are not the be-all end-all of power armour assault.

In fact, I hear 'zerkers are doing quite well.

My five man unit zerkers, 106 points with powerfist champ, were punching out grandmaster dreadknights in one fight phase (going twice in that fight phase). Zerkers are the best melee unit in the game.

But how good are they on the absolute scale of all units? And again, this is only one specific power armor melee unit. They do not help the overall meta strategy.

Martel732 wrote:
40 pts screens stop 130 pts units cold. Trading 40 pts for 130 pts will lose you the game really fast.

"ait so you're saying that sometimes you have to bring different tools for different jobs and TAC has been dead since 5th ended?"

I'm saying melee power armor lists can't afford the tools in 8th and simultaneously have enough bodies to get the tools where they need to be. Berserkers might be an exception to this, but even they suffer mobility problems.

So "except for the power-armoured units that can melee (berzerkers), power armoured units can't melee.

Also, berzerkers aren't flawless I WIN buttons."

Good post, 10/10.