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The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
Unit1126PLL wrote: Yep. There is no way (berzerkers) that anything the same price or god forbid even more expensive than marines (berzerkers) with a 3+ save (berzerkers) and T4 (berzerkers) could ever be made good at melee (berzerkers) regardless of what stratagems (berzerkers) you use or what army traits (berzerkers) you have.
All hope is lost.
Also, berzerkers.
Martel is pretty over the top, but... seriously. They're not going to give blood angels Blood for the Blood God. That rule alone is why khorne berzerkers work, because they have horde numbers of attacks with half as many models as a horde. Do you seriously expect them to just double the amount of attacks every marine assault squad gets?
Assault Marines could be usefull too with 4 attacks each.
is the problem of Reivers. They have the number of attacks, but for being Primaris they don't have access to the weapons to put those attacks to work. Reivers with Thunder Hammers/Power Swords/Power Claws, could be devastating.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/11/01 00:55:39
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
Going back to the main point - how does zerkers consolidate then engage into a second unit if its more than 1" away after its consolidate?
'Blood for the blood god' lets you 'fight' twice in one game turn. Part 1 of the fight phase tells you units that succesfully charged or is within 1" at the beginning of the fight phase is eligible to be picked to fight. A successful charge is one which gets a unit within 1" of the targeted charge. Which then means however the method/reason, whether charged or was already within 1" of enemy unit, units that are within 1" of an enemy units are units that are eligible to fight.
So then, where does the wording for the BftBG lets you skip part 1 of the fight phase? How can the zerkers consolidate 3", then pile in another 3" into fight range without checking the prerequisite for being within 1" of enemy unit?
They get to be TROOPS in a World Eater detachment, but that's not their only legion.
They lack the '<Legion>' keyword - the flexible kind that lets you insert a faction of your choice. Instead, they have fixed 'World Eater' faction keyword.
I don't know in the Codex. On the index you have actually two datasheets for Khorne Berzerkers. One as Elites in the generic Chaos with the <Legion> keyword, and other as troops in the World Eathers section with fixed <World Eathers> Keyword.
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
Galas wrote: I don't know in the Codex. On the index you have actually two datasheets for Khorne Berzerkers. One as Elites in the generic Chaos with the <Legion> keyword, and other as troops in the World Eathers section with fixed <World Eathers> Keyword.
Generic one:
Spoiler:
WE one:
Spoiler:
A-ha! I missed that, assumed they only had one datasheet, found it by Googling, and stopped looking.
Galas wrote: I don't know in the Codex. On the index you have actually two datasheets for Khorne Berzerkers. One as Elites in the generic Chaos with the <Legion> keyword, and other as troops in the World Eathers section with fixed <World Eathers> Keyword.
The only thing that confuses me about is - If the Khorne Berserker player declared a charge against say - 3 things. 1 screening unit and 2 units behind said unit as the plan was to kill the screening unit and then consolidate into unit 2 & 3.
Do they not fail there charge as they haven't ended within 1" of all there targets of the charge?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/11/01 09:32:50
A Song of Ice and Fire - House Greyjoy.
AoS - Maggotkin of Nurgle, Ossiarch Bonereapers & Seraphon.
Bloodbowl - Lizardmen.
Horus Heresy - World Eaters.
Marvel Crisis Protocol - Avengers, Brotherhood of Mutants & Cabal.
Middle Earth Strategy Battle game - Rivendell & The Easterlings.
The Ninth Age - Beast Herds & Highborn Elves.
Warhammer 40k - Tyranids.
AaronWilson wrote: The only thing that confuses me about is - If the Khorne Berserker player declared a charge against say - 3 things. 1 screening unit and 2 units behind said unit as the plan was to kill the screening unit and then consolidate into unit 2 & 3.
Do they not fail there charge as they haven't ended within 1" of all there targets of the charge?
Nope, they reached the first target and are good to go from there. The cost of the maneuver was eating the extra overwatch shots.
AaronWilson wrote: The only thing that confuses me about is - If the Khorne Berserker player declared a charge against say - 3 things. 1 screening unit and 2 units behind said unit as the plan was to kill the screening unit and then consolidate into unit 2 & 3.
Do they not fail there charge as they haven't ended within 1" of all there targets of the charge?
Nope, they reached the first target and are good to go from there. The cost of the maneuver was eating the extra overwatch shots.
I didn't know this.. will totally have to use this tactic for future games.
In regards to the OP issue.
Of a consolidation move is only 3", with effective bubble wrapping is it not very easy to stop the berserkers from doing this? Deploying cheap units across the front of the army in a arc like fashion and have the expensive things behind - on the table edge if you have to.
A Song of Ice and Fire - House Greyjoy.
AoS - Maggotkin of Nurgle, Ossiarch Bonereapers & Seraphon.
Bloodbowl - Lizardmen.
Horus Heresy - World Eaters.
Marvel Crisis Protocol - Avengers, Brotherhood of Mutants & Cabal.
Middle Earth Strategy Battle game - Rivendell & The Easterlings.
The Ninth Age - Beast Herds & Highborn Elves.
Warhammer 40k - Tyranids.
AaronWilson wrote: Deploying cheap units across the front of the army in a arc like fashion and have the expensive things behind - on the table edge if you have to.
If I was faced with the choice of playing a game of 40k that way, i would choose to pack up and go home. Life is short and this game is supposed to be fun. That doesn’t sound like fun at all to me. People need to tell their friends to stop being such a-holes.
AaronWilson wrote: Deploying cheap units across the front of the army in a arc like fashion and have the expensive things behind - on the table edge if you have to.
If I was faced with the choice of playing a game of 40k that way, i would choose to pack up and go home. Life is short and this game is supposed to be fun. That doesn’t sound like fun at all to me. People need to tell their friends to stop being such a-holes.
That's just a matter of perspective no? Using the Alpha Legion strategem on some Khorne Berserkers may not truly be the fluffiest way to play but in no way is it using a loop hole of the game, attempting to bend any mechanics ro really doing anything worse then threatening a horrible alpha assault, other armies do it other ways.
It's just a style of play you have to try to adapt to and use tactics to overcome, the specific tactic of bubble wrapping against a huge alpha melee assault army just seems logical. I wouldn't think my opponent was a ass-hole for using something the codex has offered for him to do in a pretty simple way.
A Song of Ice and Fire - House Greyjoy.
AoS - Maggotkin of Nurgle, Ossiarch Bonereapers & Seraphon.
Bloodbowl - Lizardmen.
Horus Heresy - World Eaters.
Marvel Crisis Protocol - Avengers, Brotherhood of Mutants & Cabal.
Middle Earth Strategy Battle game - Rivendell & The Easterlings.
The Ninth Age - Beast Herds & Highborn Elves.
Warhammer 40k - Tyranids.
AaronWilson wrote: The only thing that confuses me about is - If the Khorne Berserker player declared a charge against say - 3 things. 1 screening unit and 2 units behind said unit as the plan was to kill the screening unit and then consolidate into unit 2 & 3.
Do they not fail there charge as they haven't ended within 1" of all there targets of the charge?
Nope, they reached the first target and are good to go from there. The cost of the maneuver was eating the extra overwatch shots.
I didn't know this.. will totally have to use this tactic for future games.
In regards to the OP issue.
Of a consolidation move is only 3", with effective bubble wrapping is it not very easy to stop the berserkers from doing this? Deploying cheap units across the front of the army in an arc like fashion and have the expensive things behind - on the table edge if you have to.
It's actually much further than 3". They get to charge up to the enemy, then Pile In (which they can use to gain quite a bit of movement by circling models). Then they get a 3" Consolidate, then they fight again and get a 3" Pile in. So at this point, they have usually managed 7-9" behind the screen and they only need to be within 1" of the next unit to fight, so if you are 8-10" behind they can tag you. Then if they don't manage to get in with fight No. 2 they Consolidate for another 3" (Now we are at 10-12" space covered) and then if they are still out they can use the Stratagem on one unit to fight again getting a 3" Pile In (13-15") and, if necessary just consolidate again (16-18") to lock you in combat.
AaronWilson wrote: The only thing that confuses me about is - If the Khorne Berserker player declared a charge against say - 3 things. 1 screening unit and 2 units behind said unit as the plan was to kill the screening unit and then consolidate into unit 2 & 3.
Do they not fail there charge as they haven't ended within 1" of all there targets of the charge?
Nope, they reached the first target and are good to go from there. The cost of the maneuver was eating the extra overwatch shots.
I didn't know this.. will totally have to use this tactic for future games.
In regards to the OP issue.
Of a consolidation move is only 3", with effective bubble wrapping is it not very easy to stop the berserkers from doing this? Deploying cheap units across the front of the army in an arc like fashion and have the expensive things behind - on the table edge if you have to.
It's actually much further than 3". They get to charge up to the enemy, then Pile In (which they can use to gain quite a bit of movement by circling models). Then they get a 3" Consolidate, then they fight again and get a 3" Pile in. So at this point, they have usually managed 7-9" behind the screen and they only need to be within 1" of the next unit to fight, so if you are 8-10" behind they can tag you. Then if they don't manage to get in with fight No. 2 they Consolidate for another 3" (Now we are at 10-12" space covered) and then if they are still out they can use the Stratagem on one unit to fight again getting a 3" Pile In (13-15") and, if necessary just consolidate again (16-18") to lock you in combat.
This is true - If I'm honest I've only played about 30 games of 40k and whenever I do I just use my 30k tactical marines who have Chain Axes & Bolt Pistols as Khorne Berserkers in a World Eater detachment.
I suppose this comes down to deployment map, a army abilities to screen there armies and the player facing this having the knowledge to know how to play around it. It certainly sounds like a really strong tactic, but it also sounds like a big all or nothing thing.
A Song of Ice and Fire - House Greyjoy.
AoS - Maggotkin of Nurgle, Ossiarch Bonereapers & Seraphon.
Bloodbowl - Lizardmen.
Horus Heresy - World Eaters.
Marvel Crisis Protocol - Avengers, Brotherhood of Mutants & Cabal.
Middle Earth Strategy Battle game - Rivendell & The Easterlings.
The Ninth Age - Beast Herds & Highborn Elves.
Warhammer 40k - Tyranids.
Drager wrote:
It's actually much further than 3". They get to charge up to the enemy, then Pile In (which they can use to gain quite a bit of movement by circling models). Then they get a 3" Consolidate, then they fight again and get a 3" Pile in. So at this point, they have usually managed 7-9" behind the screen and they only need to be within 1" of the next unit to fight, so if you are 8-10" behind they can tag you. Then if they don't manage to get in with fight No. 2 they Consolidate for another 3" (Now we are at 10-12" space covered) and then if they are still out they can use the Stratagem on one unit to fight again getting a 3" Pile In (13-15") and, if necessary just consolidate again (16-18") to lock you in combat.
This is true - If I'm honest I've only played about 30 games of 40k and whenever I do I just use my 30k tactical marines who have Chain Axes & Bolt Pistols as Khorne Berserkers in a World Eater detachment.
I suppose this comes down to deployment map, a army abilities to screen there armies and the player facing this having the knowledge to know how to play around it. It certainly sounds like a really strong tactic, but it also sounds like a big all or nothing thing.
I agree with that. There are lots of ways to play around it, I quite like facing berserkers as I have a heavy deep strike list that can comfortably deal with them. I can see why they are a terror for gunlines though.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/11/01 12:26:41
AaronWilson wrote: Deploying cheap units across the front of the army in a arc like fashion and have the expensive things behind - on the table edge if you have to.
If I was faced with the choice of playing a game of 40k that way, i would choose to pack up and go home. Life is short and this game is supposed to be fun. That doesn’t sound like fun at all to me. People need to tell their friends to stop being such a-holes.
This is what the game is now. This is how you prevent the OP title problem.
AaronWilson wrote: Deploying cheap units across the front of the army in a arc like fashion and have the expensive things behind - on the table edge if you have to.
If I was faced with the choice of playing a game of 40k that way, i would choose to pack up and go home. Life is short and this game is supposed to be fun. That doesn’t sound like fun at all to me. People need to tell their friends to stop being such a-holes.
Get some transports and place them 2" apart and phalanx your army. Put whatever you can put in it. Larger the unit of berserkers, harder for them to pass through the gap while maintaining 1" away from enemy units. Otherwise they'll be forced to assault the transports.
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