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 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:

Melissia wrote:The thing is, I think I know one reason why he'd pick tacticals over devastators.

Ablative wounds.

Yes, paying for ablative wounds means you have slightly less lascannons. But it means the ones you have are harder to remove.

That these ablative wounds also provide anti-infantry firepower helps, and in a pinch they can help you assault an objective.

I don't have my codex but I remember you can field devastator squads with 1 lascannon or with some abalative wounds with just a larger squad. Which is why I find interesting on his choice of units since it feels like ObSec might have been a genuine consideration for this.

ObSec is one reason, chapter tactics are another. If he's using his marines to shield from assaults he might want to be able to fall back and still shoot.

It was a conscious choice.

And if you're playing Eternal War, you want a lot of ObSec, because eternal war is the literal most bland gameplay experience imaginable. The philosophy hasn't changed from Gladius. Sit on the objectives and live as best you can. ObSec greatly helps for this. If there is sufficient cover/LOS block, removing 6 razorbacks is nontrivial, unless you've got massed artillery, and it seems like he didn't encounter that.

The list that got second took advantage of the raven guard chapter tactics to auto-win when the game mode was the relic, as they can deploy literally on top of the relic.

In a straight kill points fight, i'm not convinced either of those armies do as well as they did. But, I play space marines so i'm automatically stupid and don't know what i'm talking about.

Not as stupid as I; I play BA. Power armor melee is just fine; I just don't know how to do it!

 techsoldaten wrote:

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:


To each their own. But for me when I find people constantly ignore the actual facts and just keep moving the goalpost, there is no meaningful discussion to be had. As the saying goes, insanity is doing the same thing and expecting different results. When someone's reaction to something that breaks their worldview is to vehemently deny it, then there's not much I could gleam from that.

I don't believe I'm part of some elite group of enlightened thinkers, in fact I've been humbled a few times here on dakka (mostly by Ghaz). But when the same person repeats the same point five times in a row with increasingly less friendly language, that's the point to call it in. Plus, "finger in ear, shouting everyone else is wrong" is almost quite literally what people are doing (i.e: ignoring others to go on their own rant about the evils of others). And not just on one side either (which is why it's painful to watch).

When you start talking about "those people," you absolutely are claiming other people are inferior to you. When you deny it, you are doing the same thing you accuse other people of.

So you're accusing me of being condescending to people by being condescending to me, all because I said two words in a context you fabricated.

Yeah I'm not biting this one. Think what you want of me. You obviously already made up your mind.

 Marmatag wrote:
In a straight kill points fight, i'm not convinced either of those armies do as well as they did. But, I play space marines so i'm automatically stupid and don't know what i'm talking about.

I can see there might be some optimisation to the list if you devalue Obsec, but why do you reckon this wouldn't do well in a pure kill points game?
Unless you can snipe RG out (which is going to be difficult) its a very damaging list.

I can probably agree on the Raven Guard list.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:


To each their own. But for me when I find people constantly ignore the actual facts and just keep moving the goalpost, there is no meaningful discussion to be had. As the saying goes, insanity is doing the same thing and expecting different results. When someone's reaction to something that breaks their worldview is to vehemently deny it, then there's not much I could gleam from that.

I don't believe I'm part of some elite group of enlightened thinkers, in fact I've been humbled a few times here on dakka (mostly by Ghaz). But when the same person repeats the same point five times in a row with increasingly less friendly language, that's the point to call it in. Plus, "finger in ear, shouting everyone else is wrong" is almost quite literally what people are doing (i.e: ignoring others to go on their own rant about the evils of others). And not just on one side either (which is why it's painful to watch).

When you start talking about "those people," you absolutely are claiming other people are inferior to you. When you deny it, you are doing the same thing you accuse other people of.

So you're accusing me of being condescending to people by being condescending to me, all because I said two words in a context you fabricated.

Yeah I'm not biting this one. Think what you want of me. You obviously already made up your mind.

It would be a lot less painful if you took this as a chance for self reflection, rather than just continuing, finger in ear, shouting that I'm wrong.

Martel732 wrote:
Not as stupid as I; I play BA. Power armor melee is just fine; I just don't know how to do it!

Yeah, I have to echo this sentiment.

It's really my fault for picking an army that isn't designed to be a full army. GK are designed to be sprinkled in with better factions, that are supposed to be complete.

Perhaps they'll change that design philosophy when 9th edition comes out. Until then I'm fethed I guess.

Here's a fun game:
Name one thing Grey Knights do better than AM/IG.

 Marmatag wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Not as stupid as I; I play BA. Power armor melee is just fine; I just don't know how to do it!

Yeah, I have to echo this sentiment.

It's really my fault for picking an army that isn't designed to be a full army. GK are designed to be sprinkled in with better factions, that are supposed to be complete.

Perhaps they'll change that design philosophy when 9th edition comes out. Until then I'm fethed I guess.

Here's a fun game:
Name one thing Grey Knights do better than AM/IG.

I am genuinely not trying to be sarcastic here but, SmiteSpam?

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Not as stupid as I; I play BA. Power armor melee is just fine; I just don't know how to do it!

Yeah, I have to echo this sentiment.

It's really my fault for picking an army that isn't designed to be a full army. GK are designed to be sprinkled in with better factions, that are supposed to be complete.

Perhaps they'll change that design philosophy when 9th edition comes out. Until then I'm fethed I guess.

Here's a fun game:
Name one thing Grey Knights do better than AM/IG.

I am genuinely not trying to be sarcastic here but, SmiteSpam?

No, it's a fair question.

Grey Knights can pay 105 points for a troop choice (minimum possible points) to deal 1 mortal wound.

Astra Militarum can field much cheaper, fully effective smites, that have D3/D6 wounds and 18" as opposed to 1 wound at 12".

So no, the answer is: Astra Militarum has better smite spam.

Shock Assault, presumably.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
I am genuinely not trying to be sarcastic here but, SmiteSpam?

That's what I was going to say. Plus their HQs can be bigger.

I'd actually like to see how well the Wyrdvane psykers do in a list, although admittedly I forgot they existed.

On the other hand, what about teleportation?

Bharring wrote:
1. Oh, the time where we readjusted to Loyalist SM PG/Combi 5-man vs 7-man DA units (same cost)? The Loyalists did better damage, but it became clear that they had drawbacks because (1) Combis were 1-time-use, (2) the s7 profile could kill the user via Gets Hot, and (3) you could possibly lose the PG or Combi before the bolter dudes. Imagine if those drawbacks changed? Or if the PG/Combi 5-man cost the same as 5 DAs?

I made some mistakes. Things got corrected. But some of the revised assumptions were more than a bit off. I factored those corrections in moving forward. We all make mistakes.

2. There are two meanings of Proof, really. The formal one is logical proofs that, barring a flaw in the logic, are 100% true. The informal one is "We've shown enough evidence." Logical fallacies destroy the first meaning, not the second. For example, if 100% of people, who took medicine X died within 5 minutes, saying that medicine X kills people who take it is based on a post hoc fallacy. It's probably true. And with enough data fits the informal definition of "proof". But as a post hoc, it wouldn't be a formal "proof". Stats and logical fallacies have a bit more complex relationship than you might think.

3.

It can be DAs, at least until the new Dex comes out. Not sure if it still will be then. But there are plenty of others.

Some rough ranking:
Conscripts
Necron Warriors
Guardsmen
Ork Boyz?
Tacs
Harlequins
Scouts
Fire Warriors
Guardians
Genestealers
Kalabites?
Neophytes
Immortals
Wracks
Rangers
Wyches
PAGK
Corsairs
Kroot
Dire Avengers
Storm Guardians

Some of those might be a bit out of order. But that's not a lot of troops I'd list as better than Tacs.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Slayer,
That's why I asked for peoples' data. One set, the one that seems to refute me, is mostly 7E data. The other set is mostly 8E data, but backs what I've been saying.

I didn't have the breadth of data that you did going into this thread, so I asked for it. And it turns out that the majority of that data is *not this edition*.

1. Except they didn't cost the same. You added two Plasma Guns and a Combi Plasma to a squad, which means you didn't bother to learn the loadout for the unit. I make mistakes too but not drastic ones like that. Sometimes I might be off by a couple of percentages because I can't use a calculator all the time.
2. If 100% is like 3 people, I would question the study. You need numbers. That's how medicine works. If it killed 100/100 People you'd have a point. This list is like the one person that does because they were allergic compared to the other 99 people. Pass.
3. You'll probably want to leave the Eldar units off for now until the the codex drops, but there's definitely a LOT wrong with your ranking system. Off the top of my head:
A. Grey Knights have the internal Deep Strike, Storm Bolters, two attacks at AP-2, and crummy Smite along with the Psilencer as a weapon for honestly not many more points (was it 6 or 7?). They are a glass cannon compared to the Tactical Marine glass. If your argument is that Tactical Marines can carry Lascannons...I can get Lascannons anywhere else.
B. Kalabites are actually functional this edition. If you didn't include Raiders or Venoms they'd be bad, but all Dark Eldar are basically had without their transports. Plus there's no fear of flame weapons doing anything to the Open Topped transports because flame weapons are mostly bad this edition!
C. You need to switch around Immortals and Warriors. That's how I know you either don't follow tournaments or go into the Necron Tactica, or both.
D. I've never heard anyone complain about Genestealers being mediocre as a troop this edition so I don't know why you're ranking them so low. This one needs further elaboration on your end.
E. How can you even list Neophytes when they're part of the Crusader Squad itself? That also reminds me that you didn't list Chaos Marines (and Noise and Berserker Marines too for their Legions) and Crusader Squads. Nor did you list Infantry for Guard as well.

So not only are you missing a bunch of choices, but your rankings actually don't make much sense. I could make a similar list but nobody would care.

What about teleportation? If you are talking Deepstike, there are Scions who give better alpha strike per point still.

 techsoldaten wrote:

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
I am genuinely not trying to be sarcastic here but, SmiteSpam?

That's what I was going to say. Plus their HQs can be bigger.

So, i've already addressed that. AM has far better smite spam. It has been featured in a lot of good lists. 40 points for a fully effective 18" smite.

Bigger HQs? I'm not sure what you mean by that. Yeah you can pay 300 points for a Grand Master Nemesis Dreadknight, but he'll have less firepower than Pask, and he's getting 5 attacks in melee, and can be targeted since he has more than 9 wounds.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Not as stupid as I; I play BA. Power armor melee is just fine; I just don't know how to do it!

Yeah, I have to echo this sentiment.

It's really my fault for picking an army that isn't designed to be a full army. GK are designed to be sprinkled in with better factions, that are supposed to be complete.

Perhaps they'll change that design philosophy when 9th edition comes out. Until then I'm fethed I guess.

Here's a fun game:
Name one thing Grey Knights do better than AM/IG.

I am genuinely not trying to be sarcastic here but, SmiteSpam?

Their actual Librarians don't even have regular Smite.

 Quickjager wrote:
What about teleportation? If you are talking Deepstike, there are Scions who give better alpha strike per point still.

Far better actually, and also since AM have cheap effective units that don't need to deep strike, your alpha footprint is actually bigger with AM than it is with GK. And you don't depend on it first turn, you can beta strike if the situation calls for it. if GK don't arrive turn 1 you'll get tabled hardcore.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Not as stupid as I; I play BA. Power armor melee is just fine; I just don't know how to do it!

Yeah, I have to echo this sentiment.

It's really my fault for picking an army that isn't designed to be a full army. GK are designed to be sprinkled in with better factions, that are supposed to be complete.

Perhaps they'll change that design philosophy when 9th edition comes out. Until then I'm fethed I guess.

Here's a fun game:
Name one thing Grey Knights do better than AM/IG.

I am genuinely not trying to be sarcastic here but, SmiteSpam?

Their actual Librarians don't even have regular Smite.

This is correct. With the codex librarians have "Rites of Banishment." It was a big nerf.

 Marmatag wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
What about teleportation? If you are talking Deepstike, there are Scions who give better alpha strike per point still.

Far better actually, and also since AM have cheap effective units that don't need to deep strike, your alpha footprint is actually bigger with AM than it is with GK. And you don't depend on it first turn, you can beta strike if the situation calls for it. if GK don't arrive turn 1 you'll get tabled hardcore.

Fair enough. I'm still gonna try and find a way to make GKs scary.

 Melissia wrote:
The thing is, I think I know one reason why he'd pick tacticals over devastators.

Ablative wounds.

Yes, paying for ablative wounds means you have slightly less lascannons. But it means the ones you have are harder to remove.

That these ablative wounds also provide anti-infantry firepower helps, and in a pinch they can help you assault an objective.

That's because you guys are running Devastators incorrectly for this scenario.

What you would do is two Lascannons and a Cherub. You lose only two command points (which doesn't matter in this list because Rowboat gives you three for existing) and Objective Secured, and in return you get a BS2+ Lascannon and the ability to fire one of the Lascannons twice. With four squads that's four extra Lascannons firing at BS2+ per game for only 5 points per Cherub! If you count that in the aura, the offensive output is more than worth losing that useless OS rule.

There are two ways to make GK alright, not scary.

One is GKNDK monster mash, sprinkle with Stormravens to your point limit.

It's meh, I don't think anyone would play it for fun, pretty boring. Shunt being taken away from DK make them much more horrible.

The other is GKSS spam, which... isn't really good. Because half have to be on the board you end up investing in Rhinos, but you don't have the points to really reach that saturation level.

 Marmatag wrote:

Here's a fun game:
Name one thing Grey Knights do better than AM/IG.

Being Shiny

GGEZ

 Desubot wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

Here's a fun game:
Name one thing Grey Knights do better than AM/IG.

Being Shiny

GGEZ

Also, they're better at being worse than IG than IG.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
What about teleportation? If you are talking Deepstike, there are Scions who give better alpha strike per point still.

Far better actually, and also since AM have cheap effective units that don't need to deep strike, your alpha footprint is actually bigger with AM than it is with GK. And you don't depend on it first turn, you can beta strike if the situation calls for it. if GK don't arrive turn 1 you'll get tabled hardcore.

Fair enough. I'm still gonna try and find a way to make GKs scary.

I can short circuit that process if you like.

Draigo + Double Storm Raven. Deep strike Draigo between the ravens giving them full rerolls. You can run them with meltas and assault cannons, fly right up to your opponent, drop Draigo between them, and have wicked rerolls. They can also fly away because he can Gate of Infinity to keep up and provide rerolls as they terrorize the table. I've been at the final table in a few tournaments doing exactly this.

Of course you can do this cheaper with a chapter master jump pack and ravens, and have a better overall non-GK army, but you can't gate to keep up with the ravens, and draigo is gnarly in melee.

This is the way i've been successful.

But if you're looking at running a GK force that isn't mono-GK, there aren't many options. Your best bet is to have a patrol of GK with a grand master, some strikes, and the rest AM.


But seriously anyone else care to try? I consider myself a competitive player and would be happy to discuss GK vs AM. Help me get better.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Blacksails wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

Here's a fun game:
Name one thing Grey Knights do better than AM/IG.

Being Shiny

GGEZ

Also, they're better at being worse than IG than IG.

Nailed it. Exalted

 Desubot wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

Here's a fun game:
Name one thing Grey Knights do better than AM/IG.

Being Shiny

GGEZ

I dunno if Lord Solar Macharius gets a updated model we might get beat out on that.

 Marmatag wrote:

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
What about teleportation? If you are talking Deepstike, there are Scions who give better alpha strike per point still.

Far better actually, and also since AM have cheap effective units that don't need to deep strike, your alpha footprint is actually bigger with AM than it is with GK. And you don't depend on it first turn, you can beta strike if the situation calls for it. if GK don't arrive turn 1 you'll get tabled hardcore.

Fair enough. I'm still gonna try and find a way to make GKs scary.

I can short circuit that process if you like.

Draigo + Double Storm Raven. Deep strike Draigo between the ravens giving them full rerolls. You can run them with meltas and assault cannons, fly right up to your opponent, drop Draigo between them, and have wicked rerolls. They can also fly away because he can Gate of Infinity to keep up and provide rerolls as they terrorize the table. I've been at the final table in a few tournaments doing exactly this.

Of course you can do this cheaper with a chapter master jump pack and ravens, and have a better overall non-GK army, but you can't gate to keep up with the ravens, and draigo is gnarly in melee.

This is the way i've been successful.

But if you're looking at running a GK force that isn't mono-GK, there aren't many options. Your best bet is to have a patrol of GK with a grand master, some strikes, and the rest AM.

I'm actually thinking of using PAGKs. Call me crazy but I still remember when I was young and they were the coolest things ever. That and the Daemonhunter codex basically dared me to prove them wrong.

 Marmatag wrote:
Bigger HQs? I'm not sure what you mean by that. Yeah you can pay 300 points for a Grand Master Nemesis Dreadknight, but he'll have less firepower than Pask, and he's getting 5 attacks in melee, and can be targeted since he has more than 9 wounds.

Don't forget Terminator armor for better saves. Yeah, the Dreadknight is bigger than Pask and being taller about one of the few things GK do better than IG.

I forgot about that list Marmatag, I think I first saw it on Winters Seo channel. I kind of put it on the backburner with the changes to flying units, because of how few boots on the ground GK can have I was too worried about being tabled.

 techsoldaten wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Bigger HQs? I'm not sure what you mean by that. Yeah you can pay 300 points for a Grand Master Nemesis Dreadknight, but he'll have less firepower than Pask, and he's getting 5 attacks in melee, and can be targeted since he has more than 9 wounds.

Don't forget Terminator armor for better saves. Yeah, the Dreadknight is bigger than Pask and being taller about one of the few things GK do better than IG.

Except he's T6, can't receive orders, and being bigger means he's more easy to see and shoot. Any gun, seriously, any gun you'd target at a 12 wound Warlord had better have some AP on it. I mean seriously. Wouldn't it be problematic if you could effectively down the warlord of an army with small arms fire? This guy gets blasted off the table in seconds against meta armies, because he's going to be screened by little die-fast GKs, not the invincible conscript wall.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
What about teleportation? If you are talking Deepstike, there are Scions who give better alpha strike per point still.

Far better actually, and also since AM have cheap effective units that don't need to deep strike, your alpha footprint is actually bigger with AM than it is with GK. And you don't depend on it first turn, you can beta strike if the situation calls for it. if GK don't arrive turn 1 you'll get tabled hardcore.

Fair enough. I'm still gonna try and find a way to make GKs scary.

I can short circuit that process if you like.

Draigo + Double Storm Raven. Deep strike Draigo between the ravens giving them full rerolls. You can run them with meltas and assault cannons, fly right up to your opponent, drop Draigo between them, and have wicked rerolls. They can also fly away because he can Gate of Infinity to keep up and provide rerolls as they terrorize the table. I've been at the final table in a few tournaments doing exactly this.

Of course you can do this cheaper with a chapter master jump pack and ravens, and have a better overall non-GK army, but you can't gate to keep up with the ravens, and draigo is gnarly in melee.

This is the way i've been successful.

But if you're looking at running a GK force that isn't mono-GK, there aren't many options. Your best bet is to have a patrol of GK with a grand master, some strikes, and the rest AM.

I'm actually thinking of using PAGKs. Call me crazy but I still remember when I was young and they were the coolest things ever. That and the Daemonhunter codex basically dared me to prove them wrong.

I mean, look, PAGK are the only option. Terminators are brutally overcosted and paladins gain really no survivability or improvement on the core use case of GK which is storm bolters and psychics. We rarely see melee outside of HQs which is why PAGK are the best option here.

On that note, you'll find that it gets depressing real quick. You're paying a boatload of point for units that die incredibly fast, and simply don't deal damage. Their saving grace is they can deep strike and spit out volumes of dice, that can be improved with stratagems. The problem is, that doesn't scale with the army as a whole. So you really only need 1 or maybe 2 squads of 10x PAGK in the entire list, and after that it becomes wholly redundant, because your stratagems and psychic powers don't scale. And as you start adding more and more PAGK, you'll realize you have no answer at all to T7+

Hence why Ravens in a GK list, because the actual GKs themselves simply do not scale.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 daedalus wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

I summed up the entire gaurd codex change in a few sentences...I wasn't specifically adressing any of your points but really just invalidating all of them straight up. The only unit that got worse was Scions. There is no negative...everything else got better. There is no dynamic change - it's basically the same stuff except its better or cheaper or both. The only real change to AM composition is going to be russes - which for some reason now have almost 3x the offensive potency if they use the catchen trait. d6 shots becomes 2d6 shots and reroll the lowest - forgive me - this is absurd.

Sigh. No. No it doesn't. Nothing you've said still invalidates any of the things I was talking about, because you're again talking about things unrelated to the specific list I was referring to.

I'm out. Enjoy your train wreck. I'd wish you the best, but I'm genuinely worried you'd turn it into devastator squads and not understand why it failed.

Enjoy thinking that Codex AM is somehow worse than index AM.

Imperial Soup did get worse, and that is what was winning, during a very SMALL slice of time. So far as proof of your "IG are OP" theory you've included a Dakka Poll, and an ITC list that spans, not only 7th edition, but a period when we had just Index prior to any FAQ when Stormraven spam was "dominating". The "Index" were a "stop-gap" solution, once again - this should be common sense.

Let's say your ITC list is just 'current data' that includes the more current Codex (which it is NOT), how many of those winning "AM lists" are just AM and not Imperial Soup? ...further how many are wins using the new Codex?

Your theories are based entirely on nerd-panic and a dishonest perspective of the so-called "data". You guys can argue about Tactical squads all day, but Space Marines are winning, and so is Chaos, and soon so will the Death Guard... making a BS claim of "OP" at this point is futile.

 Gunzhard wrote:
So far as proof of your "IG are OP" theory you've included a Dakka Poll, and an ITC list that spans, not only 7th edition, but a period when we had just Index prior to any FAQ when Stormraven spam was "dominating". The "Index" were a "stop-gap" solution, once again - this should be common sense.

Are you arguing IG were better in 7th than in 8th? Because in order for that to skew the data in the direction you're suggesting, that would have to be the case...

 Marmatag wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Bigger HQs? I'm not sure what you mean by that. Yeah you can pay 300 points for a Grand Master Nemesis Dreadknight, but he'll have less firepower than Pask, and he's getting 5 attacks in melee, and can be targeted since he has more than 9 wounds.

Don't forget Terminator armor for better saves. Yeah, the Dreadknight is bigger than Pask and being taller about one of the few things GK do better than IG.

Except he's T6, can't receive orders, and being bigger means he's more easy to see and shoot. Any gun, seriously, any gun you'd target at a 12 wound Warlord had better have some AP on it. I mean seriously. Wouldn't it be problematic if you could effectively down the warlord of an army with small arms fire? This guy gets blasted off the table in seconds against meta armies, because he's going to be screened by little die-fast GKs, not the invincible conscript wall.

Yes to all those points. This is what Gray Knights does better than IG.