Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
- Heavy bolters go from 4s to 5s
- Assault Cannons from 3s to 4s
- Basic tau rifles go from 5s to 5s
- Punisher rushes go from 4's to 5's
- Shuricannons and scatterlasers go from 4s to 5s
- Lasguns go from 5's to 6's
Don't fool yourselves, that extra toughnes is great on WG. I'm not going to do the same for WL, but think that it is similar and the lesser degrading profile, means he is at 100% until he is down at 2 wounds. That means that he needs to take 8 wounds which will kill an imperial dreadnought and he has more T, so now he will actually be better than those if playing Iyanden unlike Niiru has suggested.
- Heavy bolters go from 4s to 5s
- Assault Cannons from 3s to 4s
- Basic tau rifles go from 5s to 5s
- Punisher rushes go from 4's to 5's
- Shuricannons and scatterlasers go from 4s to 5s
- Lasguns go from 5's to 6's
Don't fool yourselves, that extra toughnes is great on WG. I'm not going to do the same for WL, but think that it is similar and the lesser degrading profile, means he is at 100% until he is down at 2 wounds. That means that he needs to take 8 wounds which will kill an imperial dreadnought and he has more T, so now he will actually be better than those if playing Iyanden unlike Niiru has suggested.
Numbers are out on some of those examples but the movement up the dice rolls required is definitely true.
Wraithguard definitely benefit, though more than Wraithlord due to the smaller range of weapons that typically target Wraithlords. Main benefits really being v Melta, Krak, Plasma and S4 line infantry guns.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/18 12:23:17
fresus wrote: It's too early to tell, we need to get more info on the codex. Apparently the point cost remains the same, and the Iyanden relic could work well with wraithblades.
But we don't know what the wave serpent will look like; and wraithguards/wraithblades need them. There's also probably two more psychic powers we don't know about.
From the things we've seen so far, wraithblades and wraithlords are a bit better, but still not that great. Wraithguards are a bit better, but they would still benefit more from going Ynnari than from the Iyanden attribute/relic.
#toearlytotell
The skeptic in me says that at this point in the last two editions GW broke the game because of Eldar. T8 is a big deal in this edition. Having the ability to make something unwound-able is a big deal in this edition. Having both in a single model seem broke as fudge.
Combine that into the Ynari nonsense again, where you are spending more time in my turn doing things than I am, and the game breaks again.
So we'll see, but please stop with the #toearlytotell, it was wrong for guard, it's probably wrong for this.
sfshilo wrote: Having the ability to make something unwound-able is a big deal in this edition.
Do you mean Enervate? You realise it only affects one enemy unit, and only in the Fight phase? And only makes a Wraithlord unwoundable by strength 4 or less, and is a psychic power which means it can fail or be denied?
sfshilo wrote: The skeptic in me says that at this point in the last two editions GW broke the game because of Eldar. T8 is a big deal in this edition. Having the ability to make something unwound-able is a big deal in this edition. Having both in a single model seem broke as fudge.
Combine that into the Ynari nonsense again, where you are spending more time in my turn doing things than I am, and the game breaks again.
I'm not sure what you are talking about here. Nothing is "unwound-able" in this edition. Even S1 can wound T10 on a 6.
WLs being T8 is good, but bolters can still wound on 6, something that was not possible in 7th.
Overall, I think the T bump is good, but I would hardly call it game-breaking. Without a points decrease, WLs will still not be seen in successful competitive lists.
fresus wrote: It's too early to tell, we need to get more info on the codex. Apparently the point cost remains the same, and the Iyanden relic could work well with wraithblades.
But we don't know what the wave serpent will look like; and wraithguards/wraithblades need them. There's also probably two more psychic powers we don't know about.
From the things we've seen so far, wraithblades and wraithlords are a bit better, but still not that great. Wraithguards are a bit better, but they would still benefit more from going Ynnari than from the Iyanden attribute/relic.
#toearlytotell
The skeptic in me says that at this point in the last two editions GW broke the game because of Eldar. T8 is a big deal in this edition. Having the ability to make something unwound-able is a big deal in this edition. Having both in a single model seem broke as fudge.
Combine that into the Ynari nonsense again, where you are spending more time in my turn doing things than I am, and the game breaks again.
So we'll see, but please stop with the #toearlytotell, it was wrong for guard, it's probably wrong for this.
It's funny, because I meant it's too early to tell if the WL became even slightly competitive. With the info we have at the moment, it sure doesn't seem overpowered at all (it's still weaker than a dread).
I suppose by unwound-able you refer to its stats not going doing as it gets wounded. But if you plan on running WLs, Ulthwe's trait is better than Iyanden.
Also, Ynnari rules don't really affect WLs (well, they do loose Ancient doom, which technically makes them weaker, not that this rule matter very often).
On the topic of how powerful the CWE will be, at the moment we really don't know much. The craftworld traits we've seen are pretty weak (much weaker than guard's one in my opinion), and are clearly not enough to bring CWE even remotely close to a top tier army. So it will probably come down to how they change the point costs, which we know almost nothing about at the moment.
- Heavy bolters go from 4s to 5s
- Assault Cannons from 3s to 4s
- Basic tau rifles go from 5s to 5s
- Punisher rushes go from 4's to 5's
- Shuricannons and scatterlasers go from 4s to 5s
- Lasguns go from 5's to 6's
Don't fool yourselves, that extra toughnes is great on WG. I'm not going to do the same for WL, but think that it is similar and the lesser degrading profile, means he is at 100% until he is down at 2 wounds. That means that he needs to take 8 wounds which will kill an imperial dreadnought and he has more T, so now he will actually be better than those if playing Iyanden unlike Niiru has suggested.
Incorrect, at least at the moment. I can't write out the math explanation for this, as it wasn't me that did it, but the idea behind it is that preventing wounds with Ulthwe is still better for degrading statlines than the Iyanden trait.
I'm at work so I can't look at the specifics, so my details may be wrong, but it basically boiled down to this -
Assume the Lord's statline degrades at 7 wounds and 4 wounds. When the lord is at 8 wounds, they're both on main statline. Iyanden takes one more damage, to 7, and is still on main statline. Ulthwe -doesn't- take one more wound, and stays on 8, and so it still on main statline too.
So the Ulthwe lord doesn't lose statline as quickly, so gains an advantage at certain wound levels. According to the maths (I'll try and add it here later) the Ulthwe lord has an advantage at 3 wound levels, while the Iyanden lord only has an advantage at 2 wound levels.
Also, the Iyanden lord will die quicker, and so on zero wounds will have no statline at all, while the Ulthwe lord will still likely be on 2 wounds. Degraded stats vs dead wraithlord = clear win to Ulthwe.
The pro's and con's change a bit if you consider other vehicles, such as a wave serpent, because movement speed is important while you're transporting a unit... but by the time you degrade your stats as ulthwe you should probably have dumped your cargo already anyway.
sfshilo wrote: The skeptic in me says that at this point in the last two editions GW broke the game because of Eldar. T8 is a big deal in this edition. Having the ability to make something unwound-able is a big deal in this edition. Having both in a single model seem broke as fudge.
Combine that into the Ynari nonsense again, where you are spending more time in my turn doing things than I am, and the game breaks again.
I'm not sure what you are talking about here. Nothing is "unwound-able" in this edition. Even S1 can wound T10 on a 6.
WLs being T8 is good, but bolters can still wound on 6, something that was not possible in 7th.
Overall, I think the T bump is good, but I would hardly call it game-breaking. Without a points decrease, WLs will still not be seen in successful competitive lists.
Not if you're looking at a -1 to wound. 6 is needed, then -1 to that makes it a 5.
Same thing with shooting at a Culexus when you have a hit penalty, or Orks/Conscripts shooting at a Vindicare in cover.
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
sfshilo wrote: The skeptic in me says that at this point in the last two editions GW broke the game because of Eldar. T8 is a big deal in this edition. Having the ability to make something unwound-able is a big deal in this edition. Having both in a single model seem broke as fudge.
Combine that into the Ynari nonsense again, where you are spending more time in my turn doing things than I am, and the game breaks again.
I'm not sure what you are talking about here. Nothing is "unwound-able" in this edition. Even S1 can wound T10 on a 6.
WLs being T8 is good, but bolters can still wound on 6, something that was not possible in 7th.
Overall, I think the T bump is good, but I would hardly call it game-breaking. Without a points decrease, WLs will still not be seen in successful competitive lists.
Not if you're looking at a -1 to wound. 6 is needed, then -1 to that makes it a 5.
Same thing with shooting at a Culexus when you have a hit penalty, or Orks/Conscripts shooting at a Vindicare in cover.
But in the context of Eldar, the only situation in which this will ever happen is in melee against already weak units that have been affected by a Warlock
So if Wraithblades charge Guard, or a WL charges marines. Niether of these situations will happen enough for it to "break the game". Which was my point
- Heavy bolters go from 4s to 5s
- Assault Cannons from 3s to 4s
- Basic tau rifles go from 5s to 5s
- Punisher rushes go from 4's to 5's
- Shuricannons and scatterlasers go from 4s to 5s
- Lasguns go from 5's to 6's
Don't fool yourselves, that extra toughnes is great on WG. I'm not going to do the same for WL, but think that it is similar and the lesser degrading profile, means he is at 100% until he is down at 2 wounds. That means that he needs to take 8 wounds which will kill an imperial dreadnought and he has more T, so now he will actually be better than those if playing Iyanden unlike Niiru has suggested.
Incorrect, at least at the moment. I can't write out the math explanation for this, as it wasn't me that did it, but the idea behind it is that preventing wounds with Ulthwe is still better for degrading statlines than the Iyanden trait.
I'm at work so I can't look at the specifics, so my details may be wrong, but it basically boiled down to this -
Assume the Lord's statline degrades at 7 wounds and 4 wounds. When the lord is at 8 wounds, they're both on main statline. Iyanden takes one more damage, to 7, and is still on main statline. Ulthwe -doesn't- take one more wound, and stays on 8, and so it still on main statline too.
So the Ulthwe lord doesn't lose statline as quickly, so gains an advantage at certain wound levels. According to the maths (I'll try and add it here later) the Ulthwe lord has an advantage at 3 wound levels, while the Iyanden lord only has an advantage at 2 wound levels.
Also, the Iyanden lord will die quicker, and so on zero wounds will have no statline at all, while the Ulthwe lord will still likely be on 2 wounds. Degraded stats vs dead wraithlord = clear win to Ulthwe.
The pro's and con's change a bit if you consider other vehicles, such as a wave serpent, because movement speed is important while you're transporting a unit... but by the time you degrade your stats as ulthwe you should probably have dumped your cargo already anyway.
I'm not sure I agree with that. There's no need to asssume the wounds levels on a Wraithlord, we know its at 5 and 2 wounds respectively. The Ulthwe trait will save you 1.66 wounds on average since it has 10 to start with and thats not enough to improve it's mediocre survivability, where as the Iyanden Wraithlord needs to be dropped to 2 wounds before it's damage table actually drops a level and will never see the bottom level. Ulthwe might be slightly more survivable but Iyanden maitnains it's usefulness for far longer.
I'm not sure I agree with that. There's no need to asssume the wounds levels on a Wraithlord, we know its at 5 and 2 wounds respectively. The Ulthwe trait will save you 1.66 wounds on average since it has 10 to start with and thats not enough to improve it's mediocre survivability, where as the Iyanden Wraithlord needs to be dropped to 2 wounds before it's damage table actually drops a level and will never see the bottom level. Ulthwe might be slightly more survivable but Iyanden maitnains it's usefulness for far longer.
Not to metion the fact that the Iyanden trait is also more than just delaying degradation.
Though guards may sleep and ships may lay at anchor, our foes know full well that big guns never tire.
I'm not sure I agree with that. There's no need to asssume the wounds levels on a Wraithlord, we know its at 5 and 2 wounds respectively. The Ulthwe trait will save you 1.66 wounds on average since it has 10 to start with and thats not enough to improve it's mediocre survivability, where as the Iyanden Wraithlord needs to be dropped to 2 wounds before it's damage table actually drops a level and will never see the bottom level. Ulthwe might be slightly more survivable but Iyanden maitnains it's usefulness for far longer.
Well, like I said I'm at work so I couldn't look at the codex, so I said "assume" in the example because I didn't know the actual degrading statline off by heart.
However I did manage to find the original post -
Consider a Wraithlord. 10 wounds, with profiles at 1-2, 3-5, and 6-10. I'm going to talk here about "damage" pre-FNP rolls, and for convenience I'll just be relying on "probably"s and expected values, but nothing much is going to change if we do a more rigorous analysis.
Both Craftworlds' WLs are still the same with up to 4 damage taken.
With 5 damage taken, the Iyanden one is always still on its first profile. But the Ulthwe one is probably still on its first profile too -- if it passed a single one of its 5 FNPs it will still have 6 wounds left to the Iyanden's 5.
With 6 or 7 damage taken, the Iyanden one is still on its first profile while the Ulthwe one is very likely to be on its second.
With 8 damage taken, both are very likely to be on their second profile.
With 9 damage taken, the Iyanden WL will be on its last profile while the Ulthwe one has about a 50% chance of still being on its second profile.
With 10 damage taken, the Iyanden WL is dead, while the Ulthwe WL is almost certainly still alive, probably on its last profile.
With 11 damage taken the Iyanden WL is still dead, while the Ulthwe one is probably still alive.
So the Iyanden WL only actually has a clear advantage over the Ulthwe WL for 2 possible amounts of damage taken, while the Ulthwe WL has a clear advantage for 3 possible amounts of damage taken. And of course the Ulthwe one is just 20% more durable.
The maths are *assumed* (I know how you hate that word) to be approximate, as obviously if you are lucky with rolls (or unlucky) then the Ulthwe wraithlord might end up surviving on max wounds for ages, or never pass a FnP. But considering that the Ulthwe version is (on average) pretty much equal to the Iyanden one on statlines, and should survive for 2 extra wounds in a game, AND the trait also works for every other unit on the table (which the Iyanden one doesn't)... then Ulthwe wins by a sizable margin.
The way it stands at the moment, Ulthwe and Alaitoc will be the best two craftworlds by a decent margin. The others are situational at best.
Edit: Just to reiterate, this maths isnt mine, and it might be completely wrong, I'm just pasting what has been written elsewhere. However when I looked through it it all seemed correct to me, and agreed with my own understanding of the comparison. We might both be wrong or missing something though.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/18 17:14:12
The simple way to put it is that the Ulthwe trait also has the effect of keeping your vehicles firing at higher BS for longer, and in addition it makes your vehicles more durable. The Iyanden trait is sort of a faux durability in that it lets your vehicles act like they're taking less damage, but they still end up dying at the same rate. You can see how this works out such that an Ulthwe and Iyanden vehicle get to do about the same amount of effective shooting before they die by doing the sort of thing Niiru quoted.
If the point about Ulthwe's additional durability being an extra benefit on top of it having basically the same effect as the Iyanden trait is hard to make sense of, consider what happens if you have multiple vehicles. Let's say that instead of just having 1 WL, we've got a bunch. Because the Ulthwe WLs are 20% more durable, by the time the first Ulthwe WL dies, the second Iyanden WL is already down to 8 wounds. From here on out, for every Iyanden WL, there is an Ulthwe WL on at least as good of a profile and sometimes better. Eventually UIthwe is going to have whole extra WLs sitting around at full wounds.
The Iyanden trait means that the very first vehicle of yours that your opponent shoots at won't degrade at all until it takes a bit more damage than usual. The Ulthwe trait means that that first vehicle will initially degrade more quickly (than the Iyanden one but more slowly than a vanilla one), but then more slowly than the Iyanden one at the end of its life so that it catches up in output to the Iyanden one before it dies. And then every single other Ulthwe vehicle degrades more slowly than their Iyanden counterparts for the rest of the game.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/10/18 17:38:19
Craftworld Sciatháin 4180 pts 
