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KMK can be instant killed by kights anti tank though, and being 48 point per model is not nice. I suggested lootas also because they have a 48'' range while the majority of knights' weapons are only 36''. Now if you push aggressively with your boyz/stormboyz those lootas could be out of range if the knights want to shoot them.

I still think the best way to deal with them is to bring all cheap bodies since even tons of lootas/artilley won't kill a knight in less than 2-3 turns but with artilley you're just offering targets to the knights anti tank, which is wasted on 6-8 points models, a bit less wasted on 27 points models and decent against 48 points models.

We're talking about tailoring vs knights of course, in TAC lists artillery is solid, I use 2-4 KMKs a lot.

I'd just like to point out that you keep saying that KMK will do terrible and then go on advising KMK.

Lootaz are 17 points per 6+ T4 wound, kannons are 9 points per 5+ T5 plus you get two untargetable gretchin. Kannons take more damage from anti-tank, but will never lose wounds to moral.
In addition, multiple anti-tank weapons are bound to overkill them, plus the knight has to select all targets as once, more chance of overkill.
Last but not least, kannons will simply do more damage to knights. Rerolling a lo d6 damage with CP will also outperform rerolling the d3 for shots.

 Blackie wrote:

.....

We're talking about tailoring vs knights of course, in TAC lists artillery is solid, I use 2-4 KMKs a lot.

The reason I'm bringing the whole subject to discussion is because other teams with a TAC list can put some hurt on knights. I have a black templar army that is in no way unfairly built, and it contains 3 lascannons and 4 ML launchers. There I know I could at least do some damage to a heavy target.

Then I have my ork army and I could barely scrape the knights on the tournament even if I had plenty of AT units. Poor weapon range, strength, mobility and accuracy all failed me. I could not think of any good options, but so far this thread has opened my eyes to Meganobz and kannons which could help. So even though I am looking for a counter weapon to heavy targets, I am still trying to build a TAC list in the end.

I kinda wish we had a proper big gun, something like a big artillery kannon that provides shooting with strength above 8. Manned by deaf grots using sign language of course

 Jidmah wrote:

I'd just like to point out that you keep saying that KMK will do terrible and then go on advising KMK.

Who, me? I was saying that in any TAC list that aren't pure green tides KMKs are the best artillery and I'd include a couple of them almost every game, but against a list with only knights or superheavies, which was the matter of the thread, I wouldn't suggest taking them.

 Jidmah wrote:

Lootaz are 17 points per 6+ T4 wound, kannons are 9 points per 5+ T5 plus you get two untargetable gretchin. Kannons take more damage from anti-tank, but will never lose wounds to moral.
In addition, multiple anti-tank weapons are bound to overkill them, plus the knight has to select all targets as once, more chance of overkill.

Well in green tides lootas match quite decently because they can use the mobz LD value, and there are other units like stormboyz but even standard teleported boyz that can frighten the opponent who may want to shoot at them with his/her anti-infantry rather than lootas. They're certainly overcosted but I don't think they're going to lose many of them to moral in the first turns, which are the ones that really matter against lists of superheavies. When I played mine, 2x10 with 150 boyz they didn't lose that many dudes to moral issues. Artillery also offers a lot of KPs to the enemy, and against lists that are not very good to sit on objectives scoring KPs and killing stuff by shooting may be a thing.

 Jidmah wrote:

Last but not least, kannons will simply do more damage to knights. Rerolling a lo d6 damage with CP will also outperform rerolling the d3 for shots.

We can re-roll only one D6 per turn though.

I don't think artillery or lootas could perform that great against multiple superheavies in general, and in TAC lists I'd certainly prefer artillery over lootas. My best advise against those kind of lists is to play objectives and to reduce if not completely eliminate the juicy targets for their big guns.

 Blackie wrote:

Well in green tides lootas match quite decently because they can use the mobz LD value,

Since you want to deploy them 48" from the knights and everyone else needs to advance, the only LD value they can use after your first round is their own.

and there are other units like stormboyz but even standard teleported boyz that can frighten the opponent who may want to shoot at them with his/her anti-infantry rather than lootas.

Either lootaz are a threat or they are not. "frighten an opponent into doing something" is pretty much hoping for playing errors. Few opponent will chose to kill 10 boyz over 10 lootaz (which will then kill the other 5 through moral).
Usually my opponent direct some long-range fire at them to kill a little more than half the unit and then ignore the four or five survivors - or - they deep strike some unit between the lootaz and the advancing footslogger, rapid fire into the lootaz and charge the other unit.

Lootaz' strength is S7 and high amount of shoots. They do awesome against primaris marines, T3 infantry (daemons, eldar, IG that are not conscripts), light vehicles and are still ok against regular vehicles. As soon as you are rolling 5+ to wound though, you are wasting those 17 points.
Durability is also pretty terrible. Personally, I'm hoping for the SAG to become viable so I can have a big mek to protect them from deep strikers. You mess with my lootaz and you get the big choppa.

They're certainly overcosted but I don't think they're going to lose many of them to moral in the first turns, which are the ones that really matter against lists of superheavies. When I played mine, 2x10 with 150 boyz they didn't lose that many dudes to moral issues.

Thing is, unless you roll a 3 for shots, 10 lootaz (170 pts) will not even be close to the performance of 5 kannons (135 pts) against T8. And, you'll probably lose just as many wounds to moral as the kannons take additional wounds due to multi-damage weapons.

Artillery also offers a lot of KPs to the enemy, and against lists that are not very good to sit on objectives scoring KPs and killing stuff by shooting may be a thing.

I keep hearing that, but when facing 3 knights and a primarch or three bane blades, how are you ever going to win the KP game? You pretty much have lost by default already. In addition, the grot crew cannot be shot unless someone goes get them, and even then they can only be shot two gretchin at a time. If your gunless grots are far enough from other crews, the cannot be multi-assaulted either.

 Jidmah wrote:
Last but not least, kannons will simply do more damage to knights. Rerolling a lo d6 damage with CP will also outperform rerolling the d3 for shots.

We can re-roll only one D6 per turn though.

Sure, but if you re-roll one into a , that's more damage than the entire unit of lootaz is probably going to do.

I don't think artillery or lootas could perform that great against multiple superheavies in general, and in TAC lists I'd certainly prefer artillery over lootas. My best advise against those kind of lists is to play objectives and to reduce if not completely eliminate the juicy targets for their big guns.

See, I think that 10-15 lootaz are a juicy target. Some of them have 2d6 shots for units of 10 models or above, and when everything is just boyz, they will shoot the boyz with the D2 weapons and wipe them in a single round of shooting. A unit of kannons (read 6 kannons and 6 units of 2 gretchin) for the same amount of points is a lot harder to neutralize, so they will be able to shoot back more often. In addition, when the gun gets blown up, the two gretchin remain to capture objectives, which cannot be shot without additional effort. So you basically get more damage out of them and get to play the objective game.

 Jidmah wrote:

See, I think that 10-15 lootaz are a juicy target.

Exactly, that's why my best advise is to ignore the superheavies and surround the battlefield with cheap bodies. Which is also a TAC approach since many competitive orks builts are made of t-shirt save dudes only and characters.


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 Jidmah wrote:

Either lootaz are a threat or they are not. "frighten an opponent into doing something" is pretty much hoping for playing errors.

Even the most experienced players make mistakes I've had opponents trying to delete a 30 man boyz mob that arrived in the previous turn by da jump and failed to charge or a mob of 30 stormboyz, rather than shoot the lootas.

As far as big gunz go, i prefer Zzap gunz to kannonzz. But they do have a very close performance. It's just that you can occasionally inflict 3 mortal wounds to a target - which emmidiately pays off for any possible drawback of getting crappy str rolls before or after this.

I prefer zaap guns over kannonz as well, especially if you bring 6+ of them.

Zapp guns truly shine against Tau commander spam