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Yeah. The difference with the Chaos Stratagem one for Cultists is that, with the cultists, the unit need to be alive, so you aren't creating a new unit, you are "teleporting" that cultists unit and making him full-strenght again.

It's +1 Leadership for regular Infantry squads. It's +4 Leadership for Conscripts and +3 for Ratlings, if I'm reading the rules right.

Yeah, you can pay 31 to give 2-3 30-man conscripts squads +4 leadership. For me thats pretty damm good.

 Aenarian wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

Sad that they didnt fix any of the Russ variants like Vanquishers or Exterminators so they might actually see a table. Thanks GW

Would anyone actually take a Vanquisher or Exterminator if the weapon itself was free? I'm not sure I would.

I was planning on using FW Vanquishers prior to this FAQ. But, now it's not double fire when using the stratagem def going battle cannons now. Would be demolishers if i could always guarantee being within 24" of their backline units first turn.

On a 30 man unit, it's pretty borderline worthless because of how easily they can overshoot 8 casualties. I suppose if their test was a 6 blamming someone is highly likely to break even (you're looking at -1 if you get a 6 again, 0 if you get a 5, +1/2/3/4 for 4/3/2/1 respectively).

In general though, it means at most the commissar can only ever save up to 4 models. That is a massive, gargantuan, colossal nerf for a 31 point model that literally has no other purpose (what's he going to do, kill an *enemy* with his BS4+ bolt pistol? That'll sure be worth the 31 points!)

On 10 man units it would be a little more worthwhile for the LD8 alone, since a 10 man squad at LD8 can only take 5 morale casualties at most (5 normal casualties, roll 6 to get a 13, take out 8, the other 5 die to morale) except that an infantry/vet squad with the sergeant alive is already at LD7. So you actually get +1LD, woooo. You can get that from a banner, or just by painting your models the right color.

And can you imagine how much it would suck to blam a guy to re-roll a 4-5 and get a 6?

Conscripts are basically dead with this FAQ. RIP. Time to replace all your conscripts with infantry squads, and if you want them to have LD8 just make them Mordian or Catachan to get it for free.

 Galas wrote:
Yeah, you can pay 31 to give 2-3 30-man conscripts squads +4 leadership. For me thats pretty damm good.

Yeah, that's 4 (3) less conscripts lost each morale phase, per squad. For 31 points, sounds about right.

Plus, there's the Commissar Warlord trait that makes is so it's 1+d3 models lost, but auto-pass morale. Still good.

fe40k wrote:

kurhanik wrote:
So...Commissars are now basically dead. 31 points minimum for +1 leadership and the ability to kill more members of your squad than you would have lost in the first place. They should have left that rule for Conscripts only and kept regular Infantry Squads with the old rules, or at the least provide a leadership buff after blamming someone due to "inspiration".

And Send in the Next Wave costs reinforcement points? Do other codices with respawn abilities cost reinforcement points? I think that would be Chaos and Admech?

Other than that, the faq seems fine to me, and cleared up a few issues and clarified some abusive mechanics like Ogryn conga lines.

Oh well, at least with the speed of clarifications here, it means that anything they overnerfed might get fixed sooner rather than later, and anything undernerfed will get adjusted as well.

31 points is still a cheap elite slot - plus the +1 can matter; it's spread across multiple squads. Not saying it's the greatest thing ever, but it's 31 points; so it works.

Regarding reinforcement points; If it's adding an entirely new squad to the table, it costs points. If it's adding previously dead models to an existing squad, it does not.

It's consistent across other factions, at least from the rules I've seen.

Ah, fair enough, for some reason I thought the respawn cultists and respawn servitors one was free. In that case, not the biggest loss, especially since I plan on using Steel Legion rules.

 Galas wrote:
Yeah, you can pay 31 to give 2-3 30-man conscripts squads +4 leadership. For me thats pretty damm good.

You know, in all my games of 8th so far, which admittedly isn't any due to time, I actually haven't bothered with Conscripts. I've mostly just run Infantry Squads in Chimeras, joined up with Yarrick and a Company Commander, so I guess the leadership bonus on Conscripts just slipped my mind since it never affected me.

 ross-128 wrote:
On a 30 man unit, it's pretty borderline worthless because of how easily they can overshoot 8 casualties. I suppose if their test was a 6 blamming someone is highly likely to break even (you're looking at -1 if you get a 6 again, 0 if you get a 5, +1/2/3/4 for 4/3/2/1 respectively).

In general though, it means at most the commissar can only ever save up to 4 models. That is a massive, gargantuan, colossal nerf for a 31 point model that literally has no other purpose (what's he going to do, kill an *enemy* with his BS4+ bolt pistol? That'll sure be worth the 31 points!)

On 10 man units it would be a little more worthwhile for the LD8 alone, since a 10 man squad at LD8 can only take 5 morale casualties at most (5 normal casualties, roll 6 to get a 13, take out 8, the other 5 die to morale) except that an infantry/vet squad with the sergeant alive is already at LD7. So you actually get +1LD, woooo. You can get that from a banner, or just by painting your models the right color.

And can you imagine how much it would suck to blam a guy to re-roll a 4-5 and get a 6?

Conscripts are basically dead with this FAQ. RIP. Time to replace all your conscripts with infantry squads, and if you want them to have LD8 just make them Mordian or Catachan to get it for free.

He can save 4 models, per squad.

Conscripts are not dead, you're being hyperbolic. Commissars aren't either, they're just not a "get out of jail free" card - they still boost morale, which is great; and they're still a 31 point elite for the purposes of building detachments.

They're a 90 point wall that needs to be dealt with; it's not likely they'll all be wiped out in one attack, morale rolls or not - plus, there are stratagems, warlord traits, and other abilities that can help them. They WILL shield your tanks, gunners, etc, for at least 1-2 turns - that's far more then enough for the rest of the army to make up the 90 "dead" points that you lose.

A 3ppm model, with those stats, and that large squad number, NEEDS to be able to be dealt with through Morale - it's the entire point of the mechanic.

 ross-128 wrote:
On a 30 man unit, it's pretty borderline worthless because of how easily they can overshoot 8 casualties. I suppose if their test was a 6 blamming someone is highly likely to break even (you're looking at -1 if you get a 6 again, 0 if you get a 5, +1/2/3/4 for 4/3/2/1 respectively).

In general though, it means at most the commissar can only ever save up to 4 models. That is a massive, gargantuan, colossal nerf for a 31 point model that literally has no other purpose (what's he going to do, kill an *enemy* with his BS4+ bolt pistol? That'll sure be worth the 31 points!)

On 10 man units it would be a little more worthwhile for the LD8 alone, since a 10 man squad at LD8 can only take 5 morale casualties at most (5 normal casualties, roll 6 to get a 13, take out 8, the other 5 die to morale) except that an infantry/vet squad with the sergeant alive is already at LD7. So you actually get +1LD, woooo. You can get that from a banner, or just by painting your models the right color.

And can you imagine how much it would suck to blam a guy to re-roll a 4-5 and get a 6?

Conscripts are basically dead with this FAQ. RIP. Time to replace all your conscripts with infantry squads, and if you want them to have LD8 just make them Mordian or Catachan to get it for free.

Good riddace. If only they had done this to scatterbikes. Sacrifice one unit so 30 others can play.

accidently quoted.

delete please

Martel732 wrote:

 ross-128 wrote:
On a 30 man unit, it's pretty borderline worthless because of how easily they can overshoot 8 casualties. I suppose if their test was a 6 blamming someone is highly likely to break even (you're looking at -1 if you get a 6 again, 0 if you get a 5, +1/2/3/4 for 4/3/2/1 respectively).

In general though, it means at most the commissar can only ever save up to 4 models. That is a massive, gargantuan, colossal nerf for a 31 point model that literally has no other purpose (what's he going to do, kill an *enemy* with his BS4+ bolt pistol? That'll sure be worth the 31 points!)

On 10 man units it would be a little more worthwhile for the LD8 alone, since a 10 man squad at LD8 can only take 5 morale casualties at most (5 normal casualties, roll 6 to get a 13, take out 8, the other 5 die to morale) except that an infantry/vet squad with the sergeant alive is already at LD7. So you actually get +1LD, woooo. You can get that from a banner, or just by painting your models the right color.

And can you imagine how much it would suck to blam a guy to re-roll a 4-5 and get a 6?

Conscripts are basically dead with this FAQ. RIP. Time to replace all your conscripts with infantry squads, and if you want them to have LD8 just make them Mordian or Catachan to get it for free.

Good riddace. If only they had done this to scatterbikes. Sacrifice one unit so 30 others can play.

I can't wait for Blood Angels to get a nerf.

You can't fall out of the basement. I already know my codex is going to be a dumpster fire, so dream on. Power armor guys trying to punch hasn't really worked since 4th ed.

It's not like the IG can't do THE EXACT SAME THING with 10 man infantry squads. Sometimes, its EVEN BETTER. So here's the smallest violin playing for the STILL overpowered IG.

 Aenarian wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

Sad that they didnt fix any of the Russ variants like Vanquishers or Exterminators so they might actually see a table. Thanks GW

Would anyone actually take a Vanquisher or Exterminator if the weapon itself was free? I'm not sure I would.

The Exterminator maybe, it's not awful, just clearly inferior to the battlecannon in Strenght, AP and range (while being more expensive), if it were free it'd probably be worth taking. Not sure about the Vanquisher, it's just fundamentally broken as an MBT specialized anti-tank weapon.

Saying that because of this the best chaff unit in the game is garbage. Oh my god, the hyperbole flies both ways it seems.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Trickstick wrote:

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
I will say I'm not a fan of how laurels of command works. Basically means you now resolve the first order entirely before doing the second. This means if you use a shooting order like "Take Aim", you would need to fire and then issue another order, which I guess would be something like move!move!move! I can already see someone trying to argue that now it'll let you shoot twice by using something like FRFSRF then issuing take aim! After FRFSRF has resolved

Take aim doesn't actually tell you to fire, so "resolving" it doesn't actually shoot. Very few of the orders actually tell you to resolve an action, most of them are just "can reroll this phase" or "change weapon profile" or something.

Yup--that was a Good Change from the previous iterations.

Ah ok, I missed that part. Used to be you had to immediately fire when you issued an order like that. So it basically just works the way I was using it before then, as a way to say FRFSRF then Take Aim as well for the same volley. Cool

IG players are the new Eldar players. A 3 pt conscript that's immune to morale is no more reasonable than a 27 pt scatterbike.

fe40k wrote:

 ross-128 wrote:
On a 30 man unit, it's pretty borderline worthless because of how easily they can overshoot 8 casualties. I suppose if their test was a 6 blamming someone is highly likely to break even (you're looking at -1 if you get a 6 again, 0 if you get a 5, +1/2/3/4 for 4/3/2/1 respectively).

In general though, it means at most the commissar can only ever save up to 4 models. That is a massive, gargantuan, colossal nerf for a 31 point model that literally has no other purpose (what's he going to do, kill an *enemy* with his BS4+ bolt pistol? That'll sure be worth the 31 points!)

On 10 man units it would be a little more worthwhile for the LD8 alone, since a 10 man squad at LD8 can only take 5 morale casualties at most (5 normal casualties, roll 6 to get a 13, take out 8, the other 5 die to morale) except that an infantry/vet squad with the sergeant alive is already at LD7. So you actually get +1LD, woooo. You can get that from a banner, or just by painting your models the right color.

And can you imagine how much it would suck to blam a guy to re-roll a 4-5 and get a 6?

Conscripts are basically dead with this FAQ. RIP. Time to replace all your conscripts with infantry squads, and if you want them to have LD8 just make them Mordian or Catachan to get it for free.

He can save 4 models, per squad.

Conscripts are not dead, you're being hyperbolic. Commissars aren't either, they're just not a "get out of jail free" card - they still boost morale, which is great; and they're still a 31 point elite for the purposes of building detachments.

They're a 90 point wall that needs to be dealt with; it's not likely they'll all be wiped out in one attack, morale rolls or not - plus, there are stratagems, warlord traits, and other abilities that can help them. They WILL shield your tanks, gunners, etc, for at least 1-2 turns - that's far more then enough for the rest of the army to make up the 90 "dead" points that you lose.

A 3ppm model, with those stats, and that large squad number, NEEDS to be able to be dealt with through Morale - it's the entire point of the mechanic.

Well look at it this way: if I replace 30 conscripts with 30 infantry, it will cost me 30 points. But I get to take out the commissar, saving me 31 points, and those infantry squads will stay on the board better than the conscripts would have just because their squad size and native LD will limit their casualties.

Also, they're BS4+, auto-pass orders, and open up slots for special/heavy weapons.

Conscripts pretty much just don't do their job now, with such a weak commissar they're not any more durable than infantry squads.

IG as a whole will manage to keep doing pretty well because infantry squads are fairly competitive themselves, though I wonder how long it will be before the same people are screaming for infantry squads to get nuked from orbit once the IG players are done re-structuring their lists to adapt.

Edit:
Ah, I see Martel has already started before I even finished the post. Dammit man, at least let me finish writing the prophecy before you fulfill it!

Well, I've been saying guardsmen are 5 pt models for some time now. Does that nuke them? No. But it makes the IG pay more to turn off assault armies.

 ross-128 wrote:

fe40k wrote:

 ross-128 wrote:
On a 30 man unit, it's pretty borderline worthless because of how easily they can overshoot 8 casualties. I suppose if their test was a 6 blamming someone is highly likely to break even (you're looking at -1 if you get a 6 again, 0 if you get a 5, +1/2/3/4 for 4/3/2/1 respectively).

In general though, it means at most the commissar can only ever save up to 4 models. That is a massive, gargantuan, colossal nerf for a 31 point model that literally has no other purpose (what's he going to do, kill an *enemy* with his BS4+ bolt pistol? That'll sure be worth the 31 points!)

On 10 man units it would be a little more worthwhile for the LD8 alone, since a 10 man squad at LD8 can only take 5 morale casualties at most (5 normal casualties, roll 6 to get a 13, take out 8, the other 5 die to morale) except that an infantry/vet squad with the sergeant alive is already at LD7. So you actually get +1LD, woooo. You can get that from a banner, or just by painting your models the right color.

And can you imagine how much it would suck to blam a guy to re-roll a 4-5 and get a 6?

Conscripts are basically dead with this FAQ. RIP. Time to replace all your conscripts with infantry squads, and if you want them to have LD8 just make them Mordian or Catachan to get it for free.

He can save 4 models, per squad.

Conscripts are not dead, you're being hyperbolic. Commissars aren't either, they're just not a "get out of jail free" card - they still boost morale, which is great; and they're still a 31 point elite for the purposes of building detachments.

They're a 90 point wall that needs to be dealt with; it's not likely they'll all be wiped out in one attack, morale rolls or not - plus, there are stratagems, warlord traits, and other abilities that can help them. They WILL shield your tanks, gunners, etc, for at least 1-2 turns - that's far more then enough for the rest of the army to make up the 90 "dead" points that you lose.

A 3ppm model, with those stats, and that large squad number, NEEDS to be able to be dealt with through Morale - it's the entire point of the mechanic.

Well look at it this way: if I replace 30 conscripts with 30 infantry, it will cost me 30 points. But I get to take out the commissar, saving me 31 points, and those infantry squads will stay on the board better than the conscripts would have just because their squad size and native LD will limit their casualties.

Also, they're BS4+, auto-pass orders, and open up slots for special/heavy weapons.

Conscripts pretty much just don't do their job now, with such a weak commissar they're not any more durable than infantry squads.

IG as a whole will manage to keep doing pretty well because infantry squads are fairly competitive themselves, though I wonder how long it will be before the same people are screaming for infantry squads to get nuked from orbit once the IG players are done re-structuring their lists to adapt.

So what you're saying is, you have options now?

Don't forget that although it's on a 4+ (which you can spend a cp to rr); Orders are 3x as effective on a Conscript squad as an Infantry squad - or, orders on infantry squads are 1/3 as effective. You also need to take that many more commanders/items, which increases points. Plus, in your example, the Commissar is only effecting one squad - he can affect multiples, which matters.

So; it looks like overall, this nerf was a buff, in terms of providing you list building options (as well as soup players).

Also; 3 Infantry squads is 3 drops; this can matter for the purposes of going first.

fe40k wrote:

 ross-128 wrote:

fe40k wrote:

 ross-128 wrote:
On a 30 man unit, it's pretty borderline worthless because of how easily they can overshoot 8 casualties. I suppose if their test was a 6 blamming someone is highly likely to break even (you're looking at -1 if you get a 6 again, 0 if you get a 5, +1/2/3/4 for 4/3/2/1 respectively).

In general though, it means at most the commissar can only ever save up to 4 models. That is a massive, gargantuan, colossal nerf for a 31 point model that literally has no other purpose (what's he going to do, kill an *enemy* with his BS4+ bolt pistol? That'll sure be worth the 31 points!)

On 10 man units it would be a little more worthwhile for the LD8 alone, since a 10 man squad at LD8 can only take 5 morale casualties at most (5 normal casualties, roll 6 to get a 13, take out 8, the other 5 die to morale) except that an infantry/vet squad with the sergeant alive is already at LD7. So you actually get +1LD, woooo. You can get that from a banner, or just by painting your models the right color.

And can you imagine how much it would suck to blam a guy to re-roll a 4-5 and get a 6?

Conscripts are basically dead with this FAQ. RIP. Time to replace all your conscripts with infantry squads, and if you want them to have LD8 just make them Mordian or Catachan to get it for free.

He can save 4 models, per squad.

Conscripts are not dead, you're being hyperbolic. Commissars aren't either, they're just not a "get out of jail free" card - they still boost morale, which is great; and they're still a 31 point elite for the purposes of building detachments.

They're a 90 point wall that needs to be dealt with; it's not likely they'll all be wiped out in one attack, morale rolls or not - plus, there are stratagems, warlord traits, and other abilities that can help them. They WILL shield your tanks, gunners, etc, for at least 1-2 turns - that's far more then enough for the rest of the army to make up the 90 "dead" points that you lose.

A 3ppm model, with those stats, and that large squad number, NEEDS to be able to be dealt with through Morale - it's the entire point of the mechanic.

Well look at it this way: if I replace 30 conscripts with 30 infantry, it will cost me 30 points. But I get to take out the commissar, saving me 31 points, and those infantry squads will stay on the board better than the conscripts would have just because their squad size and native LD will limit their casualties.

Also, they're BS4+, auto-pass orders, and open up slots for special/heavy weapons.

Conscripts pretty much just don't do their job now, with such a weak commissar they're not any more durable than infantry squads.

IG as a whole will manage to keep doing pretty well because infantry squads are fairly competitive themselves, though I wonder how long it will be before the same people are screaming for infantry squads to get nuked from orbit once the IG players are done re-structuring their lists to adapt.

So what you're saying is, you have options now?

Don't forget that although it's on a 4+ (which you can spend a cp to rr); Orders are 3x as effective on a Conscript squad as an Infantry squad - or, orders on infantry squads are 1/3 as effective. You also need to take that many more commanders/items, which increases points. Plus, in your example, the Commissar is only effecting one squad - he can affect multiples, which matters.

So; it looks like overall, this nerf was a buff, in terms of providing you list building options (as well as soup players).

Also; 3 Infantry squads is 3 drops; this can matter for the purposes of going first.

No, it's not a buff to anything. Conscripts are strictly massively worse than they were before. Infantry with commissars are slightly worse, infantry without commissars are the same as they've ever been. Nothing got stronger here. Just because I can point out how IG players can adapt to their loss, doesn't mean they haven't lost anything. It certainly doesn't mean they've gained anything, infantry squads were a competitive choice before the nerf!

 Melissia wrote:

 tpogs wrote:
People seem to be forgetting that Commissars still grant leadership 8 to infantry.

No we aren't; if a conscript squad is taking 10 casualties already, having Ld8 doesn't really help that much on the leadership test. If it was "roll twice and take the best" it'd be better, but it's not. It's just a reroll. And with a reroll, you take the second result even if it's a worse result.

So let's say you fail the leadership test by the bare minimum. Sorry, your unit takes another casualty, then rerolls. Now you took the maximum losses possible for that test... plus one more loss because the commissar is an donkey-cave. GOOD JOB COMMISSAR.

In before someone says"anyone who complains is a whiny guard player who just wants to be OP and walk over everyone else" again, even though I haven't owned any Guard models for years.

A unit is showing signs of bad morale. Commissar shoots someone in the head. Unit panics!
That sounds so great it actually makes me wanna have more commissars

No commisar would think "Oh only 3 dudes run, that's fine. If I shoot one of them it could get worse so I better not."

That is basically what an optional use of the rule would boil down to.

"If a unit fails a morale test while rolling a 2+ for that test, the commisar executes one model of that unit. Threat the role as having a result of 1."

Would be my scatch of a better rule. Wording obv. subject to improvement.

Martel732 wrote:
IG players are the new Eldar players. A 3 pt conscript that's immune to morale is no more reasonable than a 27 pt scatterbike.

They weren't 3pts when "immune to morale", because you have to factor in the cost of the Commissar as well. The Conscripts were also doing little more than being physical body blocks. The Scatterlasers had insane offensive firepower that could reach across the board, were effective against anything that wasn't a heavy battle tank, had the best mobility of anything in the game, were rather resilient with T4 3+ and Jink, and could be similarly buffed by Eldar psychic powers.

Biiiiiig difference there.

There's an argument to be made that some of the IG infantry support options could use some toning down and that Conscripts perhaps shouldn't be able to make as effective use of those abilities. The issue here is that the Commissar change basically breaks their functionality in all instances, without necessarily fixing any of the other issues. It was a stupid knee-jerk change rather than a considered solution. It's not going to tone down what some people are hoping for, mostly what it's going to do is just force rejiggering of some lists that will probably end up at roughly the same functionality.

As it tradition with GW.

That said, I don't run Conscripts, I only own a couple of Commissars, this doesn't really impact me any.

Well the good news about that is I'm pretty sure you can choose to not blam anyone, so if you roll a 1 on the morale test, just take it because it won't get any better.

Blamming on a 4 and rolling a 6 would be some bad feels though.

tneva82 wrote:
GW should have worded it so it's not mandatory. Then it's at least less likely to actually HURT you from having. Kinda silly to have rule that's more likely to hurt you than not. Especially when it's supposed to be advantage rather than disadvantage to balance otherwise too good model.

It can't possibly be mandatory, as there is no difference between a mandatory reroll and no reroll.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
EDIT: never mind. Reroll failed rolls, not all rolls.

Conscripts have existed for multiple editions, and they were pretty much a fringe/flavour unit until the 8th Edition Index. They broke the Internet and now they are back to just being flavourful and maybe just a little bit useful. A 30 man squad still gives you something with a large footprint to deny a swath of the board to deep-strikes and flyers -not a bad way to spend 90 points. It will melt under sustained dakka, but that makes sense.

If you want your Conscripts to make an opponent cry their salty tears of rage you can still pull Insane Bravery and shrug off the losses - a decent IG list should have plenty of CPs.

Alcibiades wrote:
It can't possibly be mandatory, as there is no difference between a mandatory reroll and no reroll.

In this case, the difference is a blammed guardsman.

 combatcotton wrote:
No commisar would think "Oh only 3 dudes run, that's fine. If I shoot one of them it could get worse so I better not."

That is basically what an optional use of the rule would boil down to.

"If a unit fails a morale test while rolling a 2+ for that test, the commisar executes one model of that unit. Threat the role as having a result of 1."

Would be my scatch of a better rule. Wording obv. subject to improvement.

That would be an excellent fix.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Aenarian wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

Sad that they didnt fix any of the Russ variants like Vanquishers or Exterminators so they might actually see a table. Thanks GW

Would anyone actually take a Vanquisher or Exterminator if the weapon itself was free? I'm not sure I would.

The Exterminator maybe, it's not awful, just clearly inferior to the battlecannon in Strenght, AP and range (while being more expensive), if it were free it'd probably be worth taking. Not sure about the Vanquisher, it's just fundamentally broken as an MBT specialized anti-tank weapon.

The Exterminator has a slightly higher number of shots than the average for the BC and is arguably better against 2-wound infantry (depending on its Toughness and save)..

Thank god conscripts are starting to be removed!!

It is 10 man infantry unit that is the back bone of IG, not untrained meatsticks.

I just want to remind everyone that GW put out this FAQ and Errata based on community feedback. They took in a lot of the suggestions that people were giving them out of actual playtesting, seeing that playing against certain combos wasn't fun, and also fixing holes that had been made by their writing.

If people are really upset that they blew 500 dollars to make two 90 point squads of Conscripts to fit with the competitive meta, I'm sure there are lots of people on Ebay that would love to help you recoup that.