New AM FAQ

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**Unit1126PLL**

Marmatag wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
Clearly we need to nerf GK Grand Masters in Dreadknights.

Well the whole GK's codex is pretty weak so having a unit like the GMDK in there just doesn't make sense. I agree - Nerf GMDK.

TBH - I am bringing a 1000 point list in a team tornament with 3 GMDK and 3 paladins - should be fun.

I don't care what you do with Grey Knights at this point. They're not a tournament army. One guy lucking into the top 5 with four Grey Knights models doesn't really get me excited about playing them, or buying $500 worth of AM to run a Grey Knights list.

I mean, those 4 grey knight models were half his list.

It's like saying someone with 3 Baneblades got in the top 5 but it's not a real guard army because it's only 3 models.

**master of ordinance**

So, how have people been doing with the Guard post-FAQ? Is anything standing out as really strong or really weak?

**Breng77**

daedalus wrote:
Marmatag wrote:
In the most recent tournament after the codex dropped, the SoCal open, it was:

1. Imperial Guard
Featuring the usual combos of taurox prime, plasma scions, conscripts, and Celestine. Even post nerf this list is still #1, because Guard is still number 1 overall.

So, lets breathe for a second, and then clarify the timeline. This is post-codex, but not "post nerf" (assuming that your definition of "nerf" is the commissar change). Date on the AM FAQ article is 22/10/2017.

Okay, so IG with Celestine and some Seraphim got first. Didn't see the Seraphim coming.

2. Alpha Legion
Doesn't feature malefic lords or primarchs. Obliterators, cultists, champions.. interesting list.

I like it. Probably worked like the 6x5 tac razorspam list did: no one saw it coming. Also, 40 cultists, presumably for a screen. Definitely seeing a trend here.

3. Astra Militarum + Grey Knights
It's a typical AM list, but with 3 grand master nemesis dreadknights. Grey Knights are back to being codex: Dreadknight. Typical AM list with plasma scion spam and mortar spam.

No. Full stop.

It's 1014 points of GK. It's monster mash with three dreadknights and a librarian. There's infantry squads, mortar spam, and only two squads of plasma scions. There's scout sentinels and a fething sniper/GL special weapons squad in there.

I mean, I'll cry right alongside you about how gakky the GK codex is. I have before. I imagine I will again. It's disingenuous to call this "a typical AM list" though when referring to the tournament scene anymore than it is to call it a typical GK list.

4. Ynaari
Yncarne, Yvraine, a ton of wave serpents, dark reapers, and guardians

So that one looks typical enough to me for a Ynarri list. I'm admittedly no expert on Eldar though. I guess we'll see if that gets shaken up enough post-release this weekend.

5. Alpha Legion
The usual berzerker list, with magnus and malefic lords.

Yeah, that's unsurprising from what I can read of it. Wished it wasn't hand-written.

So, is this considered a "GT"? I don't honestly know what the definition is, but I can't find "socal open" and "GT" put together in the same page really anywhere.

From the one photo I could find of people at the SoCal open wrap-up, it looks like it's roughly about the size of if the St. Louis metro scene got together in a room at once, maybe a little larger. So it's a decent sized group probably. Maybe, what, 50-60 people, at least visible, in the picture.

Oh, and a link to the top five for anyone who wants to see them themselves: https://spikeybits.com/2017/10/top-5-army-lists-in-8th-edition-40k-from-socal-open.html

According to best coast pairings So Cal open had 136 players.

It is of note that if we look out the standings we get
6. Ynnari
7. Chaos
8. Chaos
9. Chaos (alpha legion)
10. Aeldari
11. Chaos
12. Astra Millitarum
13. Orks
14. Astra Millitarum (Death Korps)
15. Chaos (alpha legion)
16. Space Marines
17. Astra Millitarum
18. Space Marines (ultra marines)
19. Chaos
19. Death guard.

SO for overall Chaos seems to have done quite a bit better, though AM placed 2 in the top 3. (especially since one of those is half GK)
Chaos had 8 in the top 20, 5 in the top 10, 2 in the top 5
AM had 5 in the top 20, 2 in the top 10, and 2 in the top 5

Based on these results these 2 factions are clearly the top 2 (with an edge to Chaos). Next would be Aeldari (including ynnari) having the next best at 3 in the top 10, but only 3 in the top 20, and 1 in the top 5.

**Xenomancers**

Vaktathi wrote:
Its interesting that none of these IG lists are played without allies.

It's nice to have a close combat deterrent. It's the main reason guard ally anything. Not sure why they don't just throw in a shadow-sword instead of an allied force - I guess they are just having fun.

**Blacksails**

Xenomancers wrote:
Vaktathi wrote:
Its interesting that none of these IG lists are played without allies.

It's nice to have a close combat deterrent. It's the main reason guard ally anything. Not sure why they don't just throw in a shadow-sword instead of an allied force - I guess they are just having fun.

Some of those allied models are beautiful though. I'd run Celestine just because its a great model.

**daedalus**

Infantry/Scions/HWS alone are probably about $500. I'd imagine it's closer to 650-700 when you add the sentinels and Yarrick, at least.

You'd be saving dat 10 bucks on free shipping though, so that'd be worth it.

So what's the difference between a GT and an RTT anyway? Which one is this considered?

**Blacksails**

daedalus wrote:
Infantry/Scions/HWS alone are probably about $500. I'd imagine it's closer to 650-700 when you add the sentinels and Yarrick, at least.

You'd be saving dat 10 bucks on free shipping though, so that'd be worth it.

So what's the difference between a GT and an RTT anyway? Which one is this considered?

ITC has the criteria, but generally its 30-ish people or less is an RTT, anything bigger is a GT or a Major (major having a minimum threshold of people).

So if this event had more than 30 people, its a GT.

There's other rules like number of rounds to be completed, but the general idea is people attending. It gets weirder when some events call themselves a GT but are listed as an RTT on the ITC page.

Of course non-ITC events can call themselves whatever they want.

**daedalus**

Breng77 wrote:

SO for overall Chaos seems to have done quite a bit better, though AM placed 2 in the top 3. (especially since one of those is half GK)
Chaos had 8 in the top 20, 5 in the top 10, 2 in the top 5
AM had 5 in the top 20, 2 in the top 10, and 2 in the top 5

Based on these results these 2 factions are clearly the top 2 (with an edge to Chaos). Next would be Aeldari (including ynnari) having the next best at 3 in the top 10, but only 3 in the top 20, and 1 in the top 5.

I'll concede the 1st place as being AM, but I'm still unwilling to accept the list with the majority of points in GK (that is, 3rd place) being referred to as an AM list.

I like that breakdown otherwise. Does anyone have this depth of data for Heat 1 of the GW tournament?

**Xenomancers**

Marmatag wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
Clearly we need to nerf GK Grand Masters in Dreadknights.

Well the whole GK's codex is pretty weak so having a unit like the GMDK in there just doesn't make sense. I agree - Nerf GMDK.

TBH - I am bringing a 1000 point list in a team tornament with 3 GMDK and 3 paladins - should be fun.

I don't care what you do with Grey Knights at this point. They're not a tournament army. One guy lucking into the top 5 with four Grey Knights models doesn't really get me excited about playing them, or buying $500 worth of AM to run a Grey Knights list.

3 GMNDK and 3 paladins would be a fun team tournament list.

Well it's a team tournament so and I'm going to be allied with admech running 5 robots and cawl and some chaff. I think we have a pretty good chance to win it. It will be 16 or less teams. I don't disillusion myself though. If there are a ton of IG players we will lose quickly.

**Galas**

Vaktathi wrote:
Its interesting that none of these IG lists are played without allies.

No list in 8th competitive meta is played without allies.
Chaos-Soup, Ynnary-soup (By definition Ynnari are a soup-army), or Imperial Soup.

And I agree, I use Celestine in my mixed imperium army because it is a plastic Sister of Battle and a Beautifull model.

**MechaEmperor7000**

This game has turned into Soup Kitchen 40k.

**Blacksails**

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
This game has turned into Soup Kitchen 40k.

I still remember the hope this forum had that 8th would be the balanced edition, that GW finally learned how to design a good game.

**Breng77**

daedalus wrote:
Breng77 wrote:

SO for overall Chaos seems to have done quite a bit better, though AM placed 2 in the top 3. (especially since one of those is half GK)
Chaos had 8 in the top 20, 5 in the top 10, 2 in the top 5
AM had 5 in the top 20, 2 in the top 10, and 2 in the top 5

Based on these results these 2 factions are clearly the top 2 (with an edge to Chaos). Next would be Aeldari (including ynnari) having the next best at 3 in the top 10, but only 3 in the top 20, and 1 in the top 5.

I'll concede the 1st place as being AM, but I'm still unwilling to accept the list with the majority of points in GK (that is, 3rd place) being referred to as an AM list.

I like that breakdown otherwise. Does anyone have this depth of data for Heat 1 of the GW tournament?

Majority is very narrow, it isn't pure AM, but about half. SO it is a soup list that is heavy in AM.

**Ordana**

Blacksails wrote:
Citation needed.

Marmatag wrote:Marines are not on the same level as Guard & Chaos. These are the top two, and Guard usually beats Chaos.

Odd, its almost as if we have tourney data that shows marines meaning as often as Guard, and having higher average ITC scores than Guard. Weird, that must mean...Marines suck right? That must surely be the only logical conclusion.

Or it means the got their codex first.

**Unit1126PLL**

Breng77 wrote:
daedalus wrote:
Breng77 wrote:

SO for overall Chaos seems to have done quite a bit better, though AM placed 2 in the top 3. (especially since one of those is half GK)
Chaos had 8 in the top 20, 5 in the top 10, 2 in the top 5
AM had 5 in the top 20, 2 in the top 10, and 2 in the top 5

Based on these results these 2 factions are clearly the top 2 (with an edge to Chaos). Next would be Aeldari (including ynnari) having the next best at 3 in the top 10, but only 3 in the top 20, and 1 in the top 5.

I'll concede the 1st place as being AM, but I'm still unwilling to accept the list with the majority of points in GK (that is, 3rd place) being referred to as an AM list.

I like that breakdown otherwise. Does anyone have this depth of data for Heat 1 of the GW tournament?

Majority is very narrow, it isn't pure AM, but about half. SO it is a soup list that is heavy in AM.

About as heavy in AM as it is in GK, surely? In fact, heavier in GK, even by the narrowest of margins.

**Galas**

Blacksails wrote:
MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
This game has turned into Soup Kitchen 40k.

I still remember the hope this forum had that 8th would be the balanced edition, that GW finally learned how to design a good game.

Well, in the mid level the game is much better balanced than before. The high competitive end? Well. Even X-wing, Infinity and Warmahordes, as balanced as they are, have 3-4 meta builds that you play or you are called a moron if you try to use them in a competitive tournament.

Of course, you always have the kind of pro-player that brings a completely anti-meta lists (league of legends is a good example of this, tournament players are famous for using builds with their heroes that nobody tought where actually any good), and then those lists become meta.
One great example was the blue-ezreal build. Nobody used that, everybody tought Ezreal was a crappy character. One pro-player used that list in a tournament, the next 6 months you had 1 Ezreal minimun in every game with the blue-Ezreal build.

**daedalus**

Breng77 wrote:

Majority is very narrow, it isn't pure AM, but about half. SO it is a soup list that is heavy in AM.

Yeah, majority of, like, 14 points was it? I wouldn't have brought it up were it not to draw attention to how literally silly it is to call it an AM list.

**MechaEmperor7000**

Should also point out that the "AM List with GK" literally has a GK character as a Warlord.

**Breng77**

Unit1126PLL wrote:
Breng77 wrote:
daedalus wrote:
Breng77 wrote:

SO for overall Chaos seems to have done quite a bit better, though AM placed 2 in the top 3. (especially since one of those is half GK)
Chaos had 8 in the top 20, 5 in the top 10, 2 in the top 5
AM had 5 in the top 20, 2 in the top 10, and 2 in the top 5

Based on these results these 2 factions are clearly the top 2 (with an edge to Chaos). Next would be Aeldari (including ynnari) having the next best at 3 in the top 10, but only 3 in the top 20, and 1 in the top 5.

I'll concede the 1st place as being AM, but I'm still unwilling to accept the list with the majority of points in GK (that is, 3rd place) being referred to as an AM list.

I like that breakdown otherwise. Does anyone have this depth of data for Heat 1 of the GW tournament?

Majority is very narrow, it isn't pure AM, but about half. SO it is a soup list that is heavy in AM.

About as heavy in AM as it is in GK, surely? In fact, heavier in GK, even by the narrowest of margins.

True, I would need to really know how the list played, I don't think points are the only thing that decide how "heavy" something is. If the 3 Dreadknights were what were doing a majority of the work then I would agree, but I'm thought is that is likely not the case. But I could be wrong.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
Should also point out that the "AM List with GK" literally has a GK character as a Warlord.

Yes because being "GK" primary lets that player compete for best GK instead of best AM in the ITC.

**Unit1126PLL**

Breng77 wrote:
Unit1126PLL wrote:
Breng77 wrote:
daedalus wrote:
Breng77 wrote:

SO for overall Chaos seems to have done quite a bit better, though AM placed 2 in the top 3. (especially since one of those is half GK)
Chaos had 8 in the top 20, 5 in the top 10, 2 in the top 5
AM had 5 in the top 20, 2 in the top 10, and 2 in the top 5

Based on these results these 2 factions are clearly the top 2 (with an edge to Chaos). Next would be Aeldari (including ynnari) having the next best at 3 in the top 10, but only 3 in the top 20, and 1 in the top 5.

I'll concede the 1st place as being AM, but I'm still unwilling to accept the list with the majority of points in GK (that is, 3rd place) being referred to as an AM list.

I like that breakdown otherwise. Does anyone have this depth of data for Heat 1 of the GW tournament?

Majority is very narrow, it isn't pure AM, but about half. SO it is a soup list that is heavy in AM.

About as heavy in AM as it is in GK, surely? In fact, heavier in GK, even by the narrowest of margins.

True, I would need to really know how the list played, I don't think points are the only thing that decide how "heavy" something is. If the 3 Dreadknights were what were doing a majority of the work then I would agree, but I'm thought is that is likely not the case. But I could be wrong.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
Should also point out that the "AM List with GK" literally has a GK character as a Warlord.

Yes because being "GK" primary lets that player compete for best GK instead of best AM in the ITC.

I mean, do you think 1014 points of his list was sitting on its hands?

I suspect that 986 points of even IG cannot withstand the attentions of a 2000 point army, nor can it leverage enough punishment to overcome the deficit in points. The 1014 points was obviously not just like, sitting in the corner with its dick in its hands.

**Marmatag**

A couple obviously points of order here:

1. I called it AM + GK, which is a combination of both. It's basically 50/50. To call it a Grey Knights list is wrong, to call it an AM list is wrong, so i used both.

2. Of course they call the list GK, because that allows them to potentially land "Best Grey Knights Player" for the year. In case you didn't know, GK are one of the worst rated factions in the ITC this season.

It makes logical sense that people would soup GK into their AM for some psychic defense and offense, with Chaos being the only other real tier 1 army.

Where are the Guilliman lists in this tourney? You already know the answer, but you don't want to admit it.

**master of ordinance**

Breng77 wrote:
daedalus wrote:
Breng77 wrote:

SO for overall Chaos seems to have done quite a bit better, though AM placed 2 in the top 3. (especially since one of those is half GK)
Chaos had 8 in the top 20, 5 in the top 10, 2 in the top 5
AM had 5 in the top 20, 2 in the top 10, and 2 in the top 5

Based on these results these 2 factions are clearly the top 2 (with an edge to Chaos). Next would be Aeldari (including ynnari) having the next best at 3 in the top 10, but only 3 in the top 20, and 1 in the top 5.

I'll concede the 1st place as being AM, but I'm still unwilling to accept the list with the majority of points in GK (that is, 3rd place) being referred to as an AM list.

I like that breakdown otherwise. Does anyone have this depth of data for Heat 1 of the GW tournament?

Majority is very narrow, it isn't pure AM, but about half. SO it is a soup list that is heavy in AM.

Uhh, if I recall that list was led by a GK as the warlord and was over half GK. So not really an AM list at all.

**Breng77**

Unit1126PLL wrote:
Breng77 wrote:
Unit1126PLL wrote:
Breng77 wrote:
daedalus wrote:
Breng77 wrote:

SO for overall Chaos seems to have done quite a bit better, though AM placed 2 in the top 3. (especially since one of those is half GK)
Chaos had 8 in the top 20, 5 in the top 10, 2 in the top 5
AM had 5 in the top 20, 2 in the top 10, and 2 in the top 5

Based on these results these 2 factions are clearly the top 2 (with an edge to Chaos). Next would be Aeldari (including ynnari) having the next best at 3 in the top 10, but only 3 in the top 20, and 1 in the top 5.

I'll concede the 1st place as being AM, but I'm still unwilling to accept the list with the majority of points in GK (that is, 3rd place) being referred to as an AM list.

I like that breakdown otherwise. Does anyone have this depth of data for Heat 1 of the GW tournament?

Majority is very narrow, it isn't pure AM, but about half. SO it is a soup list that is heavy in AM.

About as heavy in AM as it is in GK, surely? In fact, heavier in GK, even by the narrowest of margins.

True, I would need to really know how the list played, I don't think points are the only thing that decide how "heavy" something is. If the 3 Dreadknights were what were doing a majority of the work then I would agree, but I'm thought is that is likely not the case. But I could be wrong.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
Should also point out that the "AM List with GK" literally has a GK character as a Warlord.

Yes because being "GK" primary lets that player compete for best GK instead of best AM in the ITC.

I mean, do you think 1014 points of his list was sitting on its hands?

I suspect that 986 points of even IG cannot withstand the attentions of a 2000 point army, nor can it leverage enough punishment to overcome the deficit in points. The 1014 points was obviously not just like, sitting in the corner with its dick in its hands.

No I don't think it was doing nothing, but I think it might have mostly been a huge distraction for the opponent rather than the meat of his killing power. Again I have no idea.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

master of ordinance wrote:
Breng77 wrote:
daedalus wrote:
Breng77 wrote:

SO for overall Chaos seems to have done quite a bit better, though AM placed 2 in the top 3. (especially since one of those is half GK)
Chaos had 8 in the top 20, 5 in the top 10, 2 in the top 5
AM had 5 in the top 20, 2 in the top 10, and 2 in the top 5

Based on these results these 2 factions are clearly the top 2 (with an edge to Chaos). Next would be Aeldari (including ynnari) having the next best at 3 in the top 10, but only 3 in the top 20, and 1 in the top 5.

I'll concede the 1st place as being AM, but I'm still unwilling to accept the list with the majority of points in GK (that is, 3rd place) being referred to as an AM list.

I like that breakdown otherwise. Does anyone have this depth of data for Heat 1 of the GW tournament?

Majority is very narrow, it isn't pure AM, but about half. SO it is a soup list that is heavy in AM.

Uhh, if I recall that list was led by a GK as the warlord and was over half GK. So not really an AM list at all.

I don't get the attachment to the warlord. Who cares, as often as not that warlord was probably denying warlord points.

**daedalus**

Marmatag wrote:
It makes logical sense that people would soup GK into their AM for some psychic defense and offense, with Chaos being the only other real tier 1 army.

No it doesn't. AM have the bestest psykers in the game, and for only 15 or 40 points. Makes no sense at all. I've seen GK players repeat that enough it can't be wrong. Even then, the difference surely couldn't be worth losing 1014 points of conscripts, right?

Where are the Guilliman lists in this tourney? You already know the answer, but you don't want to admit it.

I don't know, so I can't answer.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Breng77 wrote:

I don't get the attachment to the warlord. Who cares, as often as not that warlord was probably denying warlord points.

You don't get those traits and relics that are said to be gamebreakingly good.

**Martel732**

That is clearly a GK list with AM back up to fill the chaff role. Everything Imperial gets better with AM chaff. The question is whether to bother with that or go pure AM.

**MechaEmperor7000**

Didn't we just have a discussion in another thread where I brought up that GK might do Psychic better than AM, and a GK player came and told me how wrong I was?

Seems kinda weird now they're saying GK is needed as a Psychic defense and offense for a list that supposidly does Psychic better.

**Martel732**

The exact reasoning doesn't matter. GK get automatically better with cheap stuff to keep DS scions off them.

**daedalus**

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:

Seems kinda weird now they're saying GK is needed as a Psychic defense and offense for a list that supposidly does Psychic better.

Well, actually, not only do AM do it better, they don't NEED psychic defense anyway, because they can just take conscripts.

**Breng77**

daedalus wrote:
Marmatag wrote:
It makes logical sense that people would soup GK into their AM for some psychic defense and offense, with Chaos being the only other real tier 1 army.

No it doesn't. AM have the bestest psykers in the game, and for only 15 or 40 points. Makes no sense at all. I've seen GK players repeat that enough it can't be wrong. Even then, the difference surely couldn't be worth losing 1014 points of conscripts, right?

Where are the Guilliman lists in this tourney? You already know the answer, but you don't want to admit it.

I don't know, so I can't answer.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Breng77 wrote:

I don't get the attachment to the warlord. Who cares, as often as not that warlord was probably denying warlord points.

You don't get those traits and relics that are said to be gamebreakingly good.

Why can't they take relics. Sure they cannot take the warlord trait, but surely they can have relics. Also good chance this list was done and practiced prior to the new book for AM, so last minute changes are bad.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Unit1126PLL wrote:
Marmatag wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
Clearly we need to nerf GK Grand Masters in Dreadknights.

Well the whole GK's codex is pretty weak so having a unit like the GMDK in there just doesn't make sense. I agree - Nerf GMDK.

TBH - I am bringing a 1000 point list in a team tornament with 3 GMDK and 3 paladins - should be fun.

I don't care what you do with Grey Knights at this point. They're not a tournament army. One guy lucking into the top 5 with four Grey Knights models doesn't really get me excited about playing them, or buying $500 worth of AM to run a Grey Knights list.

I mean, those 4 grey knight models were half his list.

It's like saying someone with 3 Baneblades got in the top 5 but it's not a real guard army because it's only 3 models.

I think you could make a legit argument on either side.