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Okay fine. As an AdMech and Necron player I'm telling you the unmodified 5+ to hit is not a good idea.
Go ahead and use the argument again it's privileged Space Marine players again. Please, I insist. Go ahead.
I never once stated that an unmodified 5+ was a good idea. I never called you a space marine player, get over yourself!
My statement is still valid, for every ork player there are scores of space marine players needing orks to be under powered.
If you dont play orks waht are you doing in this thread? You have lots of ad-mech threads to whine in.
JimOnMars wrote: I have trouble getting my head around the objections in this thread. NOBODY seems to be complaining that cc always hits on 5+. Why the uproar about shooting working the same way?
Because have wholle armies that ignore mechanics without counter play is bad game design. As I said before, there could be specific Ork units that ignore "to hit" modifiers like Dark Reapers. If they are costed appropiately, then thats all good.
But a "Oh I'm sorry you are playing Alpha Legion/Raven Guard /Alaitoc, I play orks so you Trait just become useless. Yeah theres nothing you can do about that".
Is as bad as a Night Lord army going agaisn't imperial guard pre-FAQ "Oh yeah I know all your strategy is based on morale, but I just ignore morale all together. Yeah, sorry about that "
This is true. I am suggesting (or wishlisting to be more accurate) that the vast majority of these traits be replaced with some other trait, like +2 save in cover. That, plus the 6+ guarantee, would fix the problem and apply to all armies equally. A few very special units could keep the -1, as long as the cap is in place.
Yeah, I think too that the -1 to hit trait is just bad design. A +2 save in cover could actually be pretty good, situational, but not just as broken as the -1 to hit.
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
JimOnMars wrote: I have trouble getting my head around the objections in this thread. NOBODY seems to be complaining that cc always hits on 5+. Why the uproar about shooting working the same way?
Because have wholle armies that ignore mechanics without counter play is bad game design. As I said before, there could be specific Ork units that ignore "to hit" modifiers like Dark Reapers. If they are costed appropiately, then thats all good.
But a "Oh I'm sorry you are playing Alpha Legion/Raven Guard /Alaitoc, I play orks so you Trait just become useless. Yeah theres nothing you can do about that".
Is as bad as a Night Lord army going agaisn't imperial guard pre-FAQ "Oh yeah I know all your strategy is based on morale, but I just ignore morale all together. Yeah, sorry about that "
This is true. I am suggesting (or wishlisting to be more accurate) that the vast majority of these traits be replaced with some other trait, like +2 save in cover. That, plus the 6+ guarantee, would fix the problem and apply to all armies equally. A few very special units could keep the -1, as long as the cap is in place.
Yeah, I think too that the -1 to hit trait is just bad design. A +2 save in cover could actually be pretty good, situational, but not just as broken as the -1 to hit.
Erm, wouldn't improving the cover save just run into the same problem where IF/IW completely negates your trait?
JimOnMars wrote: I have trouble getting my head around the objections in this thread. NOBODY seems to be complaining that cc always hits on 5+. Why the uproar about shooting working the same way?
Because have wholle armies that ignore mechanics without counter play is bad game design. As I said before, there could be specific Ork units that ignore "to hit" modifiers like Dark Reapers. If they are costed appropiately, then thats all good.
But a "Oh I'm sorry you are playing Alpha Legion/Raven Guard /Alaitoc, I play orks so you Trait just become useless. Yeah theres nothing you can do about that".
Is as bad as a Night Lord army going agaisn't imperial guard pre-FAQ "Oh yeah I know all your strategy is based on morale, but I just ignore morale all together. Yeah, sorry about that "
This is true. I am suggesting (or wishlisting to be more accurate) that the vast majority of these traits be replaced with some other trait, like +2 save in cover. That, plus the 6+ guarantee, would fix the problem and apply to all armies equally. A few very special units could keep the -1, as long as the cap is in place.
Yeah, I think too that the -1 to hit trait is just bad design. A +2 save in cover could actually be pretty good, situational, but not just as broken as the -1 to hit.
Erm, wouldn't improving the cover save just run into the same problem where IF/IW completely negates your trait?
You are actually correct, I had forgot about that. Well, right now I have no ideas for new traits for Alaitoc, Alpha legion, etc...
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
Okay fine. As an AdMech and Necron player I'm telling you the unmodified 5+ to hit is not a good idea.
Go ahead and use the argument again it's privileged Space Marine players again. Please, I insist. Go ahead.
I never once stated that an unmodified 5+ was a good idea. I never called you a space marine player, get over yourself!
My statement is still valid, for every ork player there are scores of space marine players needing orks to be under powered.
If you dont play orks waht are you doing in this thread? You have lots of ad-mech threads to whine in.
I'm in the thread because people like you have no concept of balance. So when you're told your ideas are bad and have to retort with "You're just a SM player", you're being lazy intellectually and I'm not gonna have any of it.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
Also at that point it has nothing to do with being sneaky. :p
I think the -1 to hit traits are fine personally, it's only a problem because they stack. Shouldn't be able to stack Airborne with the Alaitoc trait (or Miasma of Pestilence, for that matter).
Galas wrote: Because have wholle armies that ignore mechanics without counter play is bad game design.
Yeah, let's get rid of Raven Guard, Alaitoc, and Alpha Legion, they suck.
Oh wait you were talking about the idea of Orks always hitting on 6+?
Because you know that the "Orks always hit on a natural 6" thing would still mean that those armies with a generic -1 to hit them if they're further htan 12" away would still get a big benefit.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/10/29 19:13:40
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
JimOnMars wrote: I have trouble getting my head around the objections in this thread. NOBODY seems to be complaining that cc always hits on 5+. Why the uproar about shooting working the same way?
Because have wholle armies that ignore mechanics without counter play is bad game design. As I said before, there could be specific Ork units that ignore "to hit" modifiers like Dark Reapers. If they are costed appropiately, then thats all good.
But a "Oh I'm sorry you are playing Alpha Legion/Raven Guard /Alaitoc, I play orks so you Trait just become useless. Yeah theres nothing you can do about that".
Is as bad as a Night Lord army going agaisn't imperial guard pre-FAQ "Oh yeah I know all your strategy is based on morale, but I just ignore morale all together. Yeah, sorry about that "
This is true. I am suggesting (or wishlisting to be more accurate) that the vast majority of these traits be replaced with some other trait, like +2 save in cover. That, plus the 6+ guarantee, would fix the problem and apply to all armies equally. A few very special units could keep the -1, as long as the cap is in place.
Yeah, I think too that the -1 to hit trait is just bad design. A +2 save in cover could actually be pretty good, situational, but not just as broken as the -1 to hit.
Erm, wouldn't improving the cover save just run into the same problem where IF/IW completely negates your trait?
You are actually correct, I had forgot about that. Well, right now I have no ideas for new traits for Alaitoc, Alpha legion, etc...
The worst part is the traits make sense fluff-wise.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
Galas wrote: Because have wholle armies that ignore mechanics without counter play is bad game design.
Yeah, let's get rid of Raven Guard, Alaitoc, and Alpha Legion, they suck.
Oh wait you were talking about the idea of Orks always hitting on 6+?
Because you know that the "Orks always hit on a natural 6" thing would still mean that those armies with a generic -1 to hit them if they're further htan 12" away would still get a big benefit.
...Those traits have counterplay specifically built into them? If you get within 12", they don't get their trait.
Arachnofiend wrote: ...Those traits have counterplay specifically built into them? If you get within 12", they don't get their trait.
Which is the entire point of the trait, to draw the enemy close where the user can do the most damage; thus why Raven Guard has it (that is their actual fluffy chapter tactic).
Thus your "counterplay" is thus literally saying "play in to the raven guard commander's hands and do what they want you to do".
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
Galas wrote: Because have wholle armies that ignore mechanics without counter play is bad game design.
Yeah, let's get rid of Raven Guard, Alaitoc, and Alpha Legion, they suck.
Oh wait you were talking about the idea of Orks always hitting on 6+?
Because you know that the "Orks always hit on a natural 6" thing would still mean that those armies with a generic -1 to hit them if they're further htan 12" away would still get a big benefit.
A -1 to hit against at over 12" isn't killing a core mechanic though is it?
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
Galas wrote: Because have wholle armies that ignore mechanics without counter play is bad game design.
Yeah, let's get rid of Raven Guard, Alaitoc, and Alpha Legion, they suck.
Oh wait you were talking about the idea of Orks always hitting on 6+?
Because you know that the "Orks always hit on a natural 6" thing would still mean that those armies with a generic -1 to hit them if they're further htan 12" away would still get a big benefit.
Sorry, could yo explain what idea are you trying to say here? I can't understand it, sarcasm in english isn't my forte
I proposed that EVERYTHING on the game, always hit on a natural 6 on the dice. So even if you stack negative "To Hit" modifiers you can't make yourself literally invulnerable to shooting.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/10/29 19:24:18
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
Arachnofiend wrote: ...Those traits have counterplay specifically built into them? If you get within 12", they don't get their trait.
Which is the entire point of the trait, to draw the enemy close where the user can do the most damage; thus why Raven Guard has it (that is their actual fluffy chapter tactic).
Thus your "counterplay" is thus literally saying "play in to the raven guard commander's hands and do what they want you to do".
Because Space Marines have SO many damage dealers that close up?
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
Arachnofiend wrote: ...Those traits have counterplay specifically built into them? If you get within 12", they don't get their trait.
Which is the entire point of the trait, to draw the enemy close where the user can do the most damage; thus why Raven Guard has it (that is their actual fluffy chapter tactic).
Thus your "counterplay" is thus literally saying "play in to the raven guard commander's hands and do what they want you to do".
...Oh no, now the boltguns are in rapid fire range? Loyalists SM are a pretty long-range army, most of their really dangerous stuff operates in the 36"-48" range.
With a max 6+ to hit, Orks could be one of the best shooting armies to play around the -1 to hit at 12".
For example, IG and Tau, if they get close to Chaos Marines, normal Marines or Eldar, they will be Sliced to pieces in meele.
Orks, even with their most shooting units and lists (Ok, not snotlings), obviously in the idea of a post Ork-Codex where shooting Orks units are competitive and balanced, will have a run for their money on meele just by their basic stats.
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
I've had enough with this thread... people are genuinely okay with orks physically not being able to hit a target (needing a 7+ if they move) just because GW were idiots and gave a faction a trait without thinking once about the consequence to Orks (like they usually do). All these armies even before the codex had amazing traits, characters and everything and nobody even batted an eyelid.
As I said before and as others have said, their are actually factions that already ignore core rules! Like pulling out of combat and firing! Or ignoring moral! Or ignoring invlun saves!
I have to say this ever freaking time! Orks would still be hitting 1/3 of the time naturally! You honestly wouldn't even notice the difference! It would just be nice as an Ork player to at least have the illusion that I have a chance rather than turning up to a game to find your entire faction is 50% less effective because of some idiotic rule!
I won't be posting again on this thread because it's clear I think I know I am correct from my experience and you think you know your correct for what ever reasons you have. It has been pages now of going around in circles.
lolman1c wrote: I've had enough with this thread... people are genuinely okay with orks physically not being able to hit a target (needing a 7+ if they move) just because GW were idiots and gave a faction a trait without thinking once about the consequence to Orks (like they usually do). All these armies even before the codex had amazing traits, characters and everything and nobody even batted an eyelid.
I think literally only one person has said that he is okay with orks not being able to shoot at some units or armies in the wholle thread.
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
Okay fine. As an AdMech and Necron player I'm telling you the unmodified 5+ to hit is not a good idea.
Go ahead and use the argument again it's privileged Space Marine players again. Please, I insist. Go ahead.
I never once stated that an unmodified 5+ was a good idea. I never called you a space marine player, get over yourself!
My statement is still valid, for every ork player there are scores of space marine players needing orks to be under powered.
If you dont play orks waht are you doing in this thread? You have lots of ad-mech threads to whine in.
I'm in the thread because people like you have no concept of balance. So when you're told your ideas are bad and have to retort with "You're just a SM player", you're being lazy intellectually and I'm not gonna have any of it.
I think you should avoid talking about intellectuality, I havent put forth any of my ideas in this thread and i have never called anyone a space marine player. Go back and read a little slower next time.
2017/10/29 23:03:13
Subject: Re:Ork shooting getting worse by the day.
I think what you are missing here, is taht the claim isn't that orks are totally fine and needs no upgrade, but instead that your suggested upgrade is absurd and would throw large portions of the game out of whack.
I've yet to see anyone actually make an actual claim as to why such a thing is absurd.
Because you want an entire army to ignore the gimmick of a few select armies because you think it's unfair. Not everybody is playing Raven Guard, Alpha Legion, and...the one Craftworld, and you wish to punish those with this rule. Not to mention they're not even aiming in the first place. Based off that part of the fluff, they should actually be hitting on a 6 anyway.
Now is a -2 to hit ridiculous so that half your codex can't even hit the unit? Yeah absolutely. However, you can suffer the -1 penalty like everyone else and deal with it.
I think 5+ fixed to hit for Orks is fine. Seems like a very Orky perk to me. I'm playing red marines with NO chapter tactics in my games and I don't fear their shooting at all, really. There's no reason for any list to be able to make it worse. I don't care if that's their "scheme". Schemes fail sometimes. The -1 to hit lists should fear something. Sometimes.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/10/29 23:07:35
2017/10/29 23:53:47
Subject: Re:Ork shooting getting worse by the day.
I think what you are missing here, is taht the claim isn't that orks are totally fine and needs no upgrade, but instead that your suggested upgrade is absurd and would throw large portions of the game out of whack.
I've yet to see anyone actually make an actual claim as to why such a thing is absurd.
Because you want an entire army to ignore the gimmick of a few select armies because you think it's unfair. Not everybody is playing Raven Guard, Alpha Legion, and...the one Craftworld, and you wish to punish those with this rule. Not to mention they're not even aiming in the first place. Based off that part of the fluff, they should actually be hitting on a 6 anyway.
Now is a -2 to hit ridiculous so that half your codex can't even hit the unit? Yeah absolutely. However, you can suffer the -1 penalty like everyone else and deal with it.
I think 5+ fixed to hit for Orks is fine. Seems like a very Orky perk to me. I'm playing red marines with NO chapter tactics in my games and I don't fear their shooting at all, really. There's no reason for any list to be able to make it worse. I don't care if that's their "scheme". Schemes fail sometimes. The -1 to hit lists should fear something. Sometimes.
Yeah. They should fear armies actually wanting to get in their faces. It only appears broken because everyone and their mother is attempting to do gunline armies for the most part.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
Getting in their face is not viable atm. At least, not against lists with proper screens. Screens make "getting the face of" not viable.
The -1 to hit lists need to have that ability straight turned off by some lists, imo. Orks are the perfect choice. They already cause mediocre damage in the shooting phase.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/10/29 23:55:59
Martel732 wrote: Getting in their face is not viable atm. At least, not against lists with proper screens. Screens make "getting the face of" not viable.
The -1 to hit lists need to have that ability straight turned off by some lists, imo. Orks are the perfect choice. They already cause mediocre damage in the shooting phase.
Which proves how more an issue that those Tzeentch things and Conscripts were. Now they're both less of issues.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
pismakron wrote:That is a strange way of looking at it. A negative modifier in close combat would be absolutely harmless to Tau, mostly harmless to IG, but be very disadvantageous to Orks, and severely crippling to Tyranids.
The reverse is true for negative modifiers to shooting. -2 to hit in the shooting phase would absolutely cripple IG or Tau whereas Orks and Nids would probably do alright under such circumstances. Genestealers, Nobs, Sluggaboyz, Gorkanauts and Hormagaunts would be largely unaffected.
Funny how you try to hide a model with almost 100 points worth of ranged weapons between models unaffected by shooting.
But no, orks are not doing alright against -2 hit modifiers, not even against -1 to hit. We have close to no chance of killing vehicles or monsters with such modifiers because we simply cannot reach them in combat and when we do, anything but a warboss or Thrakka himself are not going to actually destroy that vehicle.
Close combat can be prevented by movement, bubble wrapping, counter-charges and whatnot. Stop acting as if it were created equal to shooting. There is a reason why Khorne Daemons and World Eaters are failing hard even at casual levels.
Galas wrote:A "Every 6 to hit roll is a hit" rule benefits Orks the most of every army agaisn't all kind of -1 hit bonuses. And is much more easy to balance than just "Always hit on a 5+".
Currently the only reason to believe that fixed 5+ is unbalanced is you saying so.
Orks lose much more from -1 to hit than any other army, while paying the same (or more!) for their ranged weapons than marines who keep lying to themselves that they payed for their BS 3+.
Newsflash: You didn't! Your shooting models are the same than those of orks despite having better armor, ballistic skill, range, strength and AP - and often even comparable or better CC. Try using flash gits for a game instead of hellblasters and tell me how upgradeing a flash git to a hellblaster is worth 2 points.
Balance only ever seems to be in danger when orks are asking for something that might even compare to what the Imperium is. Other armies being able to table all but the most competitive ork armies with ease never seems to be a problem.
Galas wrote: Because theres armies wholle army bonuses are "to hit" modifiers agaisn't shooting, a "to hit" modifier is all the defense flyers got in 8th, and having army-wide rules that negate full basic mechanics of the game is bad game design.
That's an arbitrary definition of good game design. There are plenty of armies that already have army-wide rules to ignore actual basic mechanics (as in mechanics that actually appear in the basic rules).
Negative to hit modifiers are neither a basic mechanic, nor essential to the survival of anything. Fliers are still vehicles with high toughness, armor saves and wounds. Even when always hitting them on 5+, orks will struggle to take them down. Context is important.
If the codex would change ork shooting and melee to handle vehicles with the same ease other armies do, sure, 6+ is enough. But currently it isn't.
As I said, with a "A 6 is always a hit", Ork-based shooting units lose 50% of their shooting with a -1 to hit. With a -2 they still lose 50%, but Imperial Guard an Tau lose 66% of their shooting, etc...
Except those armies have easy access to shooting buffs through characters, army-wide rules, stratagems, orders and more. Of course, getting -1 to hit is a lot easier than -2, you just need to paint your army in the right color scheme.
Meanwhile, orks payed the same points for their shooting than tau and guard, while already shooting with less strength, ap and range. But that's ok, because orks are supposed to be bad at shooting, shouldn't be able to shoot on the level or gunline army, and it's all balanced because lootaz can assault a unit of MEQ and actually kill two of them. You gotta pay for those close combat stats, eh?
Getting screwed over three to four times is awesome.
Orks have both shooting and melee units. The have always been an army that does both equally. Orks are bad shots, not bad at shooting.
As I said to Glane, the other reasons you have listed: Paying the same for just worse weapons, having basically everything in the army with a 6+ save, and in general, overpriced and unreliable stuff are the PROBLEMS of the orks. Hitting on 5+ or 6+, witth those other problems fixed, would make a tactical approach to a new enemy.
But I'll give you that the "-1 to hit at 12"" is a bad rule. Yeah.
And to be honest I don't understand the reasong behind "Ork shooting sucks because our weapons are bad and overpriced compared with armies with better BS and weapons. So the way to fix it is making we always hit on a 5+ instead of making our weapons cheaper and better"
And the bit about Game Design... it isn't arbitrary. I have listed many armies that have rules that GW has given them that are bad game design and are actually generating problems, yeah.
And to be honest I have never said that Ork shooting should sucks, but whatever. Keep making strawmans that I have never said. I'm just saying that the way to fix ork shooting isn't making them always hit on 5+ (But making a basic rule that a 6 is always a hit, thats something that should be made)
But I get it guys, your codex sucks, and you just want anything to be competitive. As a Tau that doesn't spam Commanders and Drones, I can understand you. But one needs to be reasonable and fix the real problems of the army, not random ones.
I could say that Tau should always hit on 4+ because, they already hit on 4+ most of the time and Tau aren't shooting out people off the table with their Broadsides, Firewarriors and Hammerheads? No? That could fix and balance them... or not. It will not, because their problems are about rules and costs, not about hitting on 4+, or 5+ agaisn't some armies.
lolman1c wrote: ^^^^^^ Couldn't have said it better myself. As I said a few posts ago... any argument against orks getting this slight buff, that would still mean we are hitting on 5s, just sounds like another faction scared they might actually lose for once against ork players who have spent years perfecting their tactics because they have had to play extremely smartly just to have a chance. (I watched one game where it was dark angels vs Orks. The Dark Angels army was in no way competitive yet they still won by standing still and just rolling shots against a very smart and well thought out ork player)
I'm sorry but this absurd victimization needs to stop if we want to have a honest discussion. Is worse than calling everybody that complained about Conscripts a Space Marines fanboy when many people wheren't. Theres reasons to arguee about a fixed +5 to hit roll being a bad solution. I don't have seen nobody saying "Oh yeah no, Orks shouldn't hit on a 5+, and they shouldn't receive other buffs and fixes, they just need to suck"
I'm an Ork player and I agree with your points 100%.
The suggested fix for being unable to shoot (that being the +5/+6 always hits) is a baindaid fix, and will instead generate more problems by making Orks have a fake counter to armies that rely on it, ie "Oh I have a tag thats useless against orks, that sucks. I better repaint my stuff for this one tournament game".
Games Workshop has done this before too, with the penalties to hit most likely being in response to the (now everywhere) dice rerolling auras. Which are also a horrible mechanic.
An answer needs to be found that allows existing gamespace to be non-polluted with more toxic design. I DO NOT want to see massive ork to hit reroll bubbles (Oh, those 60 shoota boyz shots? Reroll 1/6th of them) which will bog down gameplay.
We need more active, not passive answers to these things - which should also be fluff based.
Orks have the neat 'psychic bubble' fluff going on for them, perhaps something like:
1 cp - Dem gits are slow, sik 'em! Warboss Zargob and his boyz saw a 'umie beakie stumble and fall, suddenly everyone else in the human squad was stumbling and slipping as word spread throughout the ork camp Target an enemy unit, for this turn all Ork firepower ignores any negative modifiers given by that unit for the purposes of to hit rolls. If a unit dies while under the effects of this strategem gain 1 command point.
If that's too strong, make the Ork player designate a unit during the enemy turn instead.
There's a whole plethora of options and ways to fix this issue, and having a silly bandaid fix that invalidates a whole race / org trait is not the way to go.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/30 00:35:56
How hard is it to fill out an Ork Brigade detachment with the proper elites / fast attack / heavy weapons?
Asking because GW will likely see Stratagems as a way of solving the problem of Ork shooting. Will not be very useful unless you can get enough command points to make it work.
lolman1c wrote: I've had enough with this thread... people are genuinely okay with orks physically not being able to hit a target (needing a 7+ if they move) just because GW were idiots and gave a faction a trait without thinking once about the consequence to Orks (like they usually do). All these armies even before the codex had amazing traits, characters and everything and nobody even batted an eyelid.
As I said before and as others have said, their are actually factions that already ignore core rules! Like pulling out of combat and firing! Or ignoring moral! Or ignoring invlun saves!
I have to say this ever freaking time! Orks would still be hitting 1/3 of the time naturally! You honestly wouldn't even notice the difference! It would just be nice as an Ork player to at least have the illusion that I have a chance rather than turning up to a game to find your entire faction is 50% less effective because of some idiotic rule!
I won't be posting again on this thread because it's clear I think I know I am correct from my experience and you think you know your correct for what ever reasons you have. It has been pages now of going around in circles.
If you read the multiple posts people have been suggesting no one is saying that... we are sayin max the cap at 6+.... Game wide. That way you don’t get screwed over, and the armies with special rules won’t get screwed over. Why would GW make a special rule where the Orks are completely unphased by by it I.e. shooting modifiers when all other armies are not? No one wants Orks to suck, not everyone here is a SM player, we want the game to be fair and balanced. I get it Ork players are frustrated because the codex isn’t out yet, like people have said we need to wait for the codex. To just auto say omg no hit modifiers when playing against Orks is a bit unfair, however at the same time, yes I also think not being able to hit at all during shooting is unfair, that’s why I say max the cap at 6+.
