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Note up front - I'm not trying to start an "Eldar suck!" or "They're the bestest" thread... just want to share some of my thoughts on the new rules we've seen and get other people's thoughts.

After the previews we've seen from the Eldar codex, I find myself thinking that it won't really change much for Eldar players. With the exception of Alaitoc's -1 to hit, the craftworld abilities are not very useful.

Fire Prisms got a big buff, so we'll start to see them again. Rangers and Dire Avengers got a points cut, so playing them will become practical, but they're still just average at best.

The Craftworld traits are all things we've seen elsewhere before, and didn't introduce any new mechanics. Alaitoc's -1 to hit will be useufl, but RG, and AL have the same rule - the only difference is that Eldar have a number of units with a native -1 penalty that will stack nicely at over 12" range. Conceal is no longer a bubble so it won't be possible to make a blob of "can't shoot this" units. It will be possible to make an Alaitoc list centered around this, running Rangers, Warp Spiders, Hemlocks, etc, and this might push the meta in a given direction if it becomes common enough, but overall it probably won't be game breaking.

What stands out to me most, is that GW took the one standout unit Eldar already had, Dark Reapers, and gave them a 25% points reduction. Reapers were already good, and now they're nuts. Why wouldn't you take 20 Dark Reapers in every list.

I was honestly hoping that GW would expand the number of playable/strong units, and encourage diversity of army building instead of reinforcing the units that were already seeing common usage.

That said, I am thinking about trying to do an Alaitoc Build as above - air wing of hemlocks for anti tank, Ranges for troop slots and to camp objectives, and a pile of warp spiders - but I don't think it'd be that competitive.

What are other people seeing as possibilities from the new book?

I'm actually interested in playing a Guardian-centric force with Biel Tan, of all things. Grumbling aside, I do find their Craftworld trait interesting, and playing traditional Guardian eldar (Defender squads, war walkers, weapon batteries and Farseer backed by some non-Wave serpent tanks) is something I wanted to do for a while.

The points reductions alone are a huge deal, and while the Alaitoc trait may be a copy paste of earlier traits, that doesn't change the fact that it's extremely strong.

It's baffling to me that someone could think this codex doesn't change much.

- 12 pt Rangers
- HQs granting an aura of rerolls on 1
- Trait that vehicles use double wounds in determining damage tier AND old commissar rule for all units
- Point reductions across the board for nearly everything

These alone are massive buffs for Eldar that improve their game and just what I remember off the top of my head in 10 seconds. Eldar are easily gong to be upper middle tier at worst unless future codex releases are nuts.

 Cream Tea wrote:
The points reductions alone are a huge deal, and while the Alaitoc trait may be a copy paste of earlier traits, that doesn't change the fact that it's extremely strong.

It's baffling to me that someone could think this codex doesn't change much.

Eldar probably won't shoot up to the top tier of 40k factions, but they got some really good buffs. for the casual player, this is some huge changes and makes a lot more things viable.

But as this forum repeatedly showed, if you're not OP, you're not worth talking about other than as some hyperbole to compare other OP stuff to.

This isn't the 5th edition Dark Eldar codex (which is still the bar for a "Good" codex), but it is pretty good overall.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:

 Cream Tea wrote:
The points reductions alone are a huge deal, and while the Alaitoc trait may be a copy paste of earlier traits, that doesn't change the fact that it's extremely strong.

It's baffling to me that someone could think this codex doesn't change much.

Eldar probably won't shoot up to the top tier of 40k factions, but they got some really good buffs. for the casual player, this is some huge changes and makes a lot more things viable.

But as this forum repeatedly showed, if you're not OP, you're not worth talking about other than as some hyperbole to compare other OP stuff to.

This isn't the 5th edition Dark Eldar codex (which is still the bar for a "Good" codex), but it is pretty good overall.

I MISS the 5th ed codex soooo much, my heart sink everyday from 6th ed till now, DE was gutted to the extreme, i've played many DE games in 8th but already dropped them again.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:

 Cream Tea wrote:
The points reductions alone are a huge deal, and while the Alaitoc trait may be a copy paste of earlier traits, that doesn't change the fact that it's extremely strong.

It's baffling to me that someone could think this codex doesn't change much.

Eldar probably won't shoot up to the top tier of 40k factions, but they got some really good buffs. for the casual player, this is some huge changes and makes a lot more things viable.

But as this forum repeatedly showed, if you're not OP, you're not worth talking about other than as some hyperbole to compare other OP stuff to.

This isn't the 5th edition Dark Eldar codex (which is still the bar for a "Good" codex), but it is pretty good overall.

Comparing the strengths of different armies for "casual play" seems counter intuitive to me, as "casual play" usually indicates a certain level of unwillingness to optimize or maximize list building.

I never said it's bad, I said it doesn't change much - I think we'll see a lot of the same units we saw before the codex (Serpents and Dark Reapers, Fire Dragons and Scytheguard) and I think many players (most even) will still play Ynnari. I think SfD is better than all the CW traits except Alaitoc, and that depends on the type of list someone is playing.

Not bad, just doesn't change much.

DSing Shadow Specters now too, you forgot to talk about one of the best Ynnari units in the new Codex.

Im guessing it will be DS Shadow Specters, and Fire Dragons as Ynnari with WS+Wraithblades, Alaitoc Heavy detachment of Dark Reapers and Warlock or Autarch.

Maybe some Rangers.

At least the codex is on par with everything released so far it looks like, though I hadn't had time to go over the internal balance of the codex.

That said, I'm gonna be a broken record again and say I'm annoyed that their vehicles benefit from Craftworld bonuses but my SM/CSM vehicles don't. Can't win them all.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:

 Cream Tea wrote:
The points reductions alone are a huge deal, and while the Alaitoc trait may be a copy paste of earlier traits, that doesn't change the fact that it's extremely strong.

It's baffling to me that someone could think this codex doesn't change much.

Eldar probably won't shoot up to the top tier of 40k factions, but they got some really good buffs. for the casual player, this is some huge changes and makes a lot more things viable.

But as this forum repeatedly showed, if you're not OP, you're not worth talking about other than as some hyperbole to compare other OP stuff to.

This isn't the 5th edition Dark Eldar codex (which is still the bar for a "Good" codex), but it is pretty good overall.

I think Alaitoc is a top table faction

 znelson wrote:

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:

 Cream Tea wrote:
The points reductions alone are a huge deal, and while the Alaitoc trait may be a copy paste of earlier traits, that doesn't change the fact that it's extremely strong.

It's baffling to me that someone could think this codex doesn't change much.

Eldar probably won't shoot up to the top tier of 40k factions, but they got some really good buffs. for the casual player, this is some huge changes and makes a lot more things viable.

But as this forum repeatedly showed, if you're not OP, you're not worth talking about other than as some hyperbole to compare other OP stuff to.

This isn't the 5th edition Dark Eldar codex (which is still the bar for a "Good" codex), but it is pretty good overall.

Comparing the strengths of different armies for "casual play" seems counter intuitive to me, as "casual play" usually indicates a certain level of unwillingness to optimize or maximize list building.

I never said it's bad, I said it doesn't change much - I think we'll see a lot of the same units we saw before the codex (Serpents and Dark Reapers, Fire Dragons and Scytheguard) and I think many players (most even) will still play Ynnari. I think SfD is better than all the CW traits except Alaitoc, and that depends on the type of list someone is playing.

Not bad, just doesn't change much.

I wasn't exactly comparing different armies and I have no idea why people consider casual play "unwilling to optimize" since, in a sense, they do. They just like fielding sub-optimal units because they like those units for reasons outside of pure in-game power, but they will still try to optimize them within the restrictions they're given. No one brings a unit, especially one they like, just to have them die so they can say "I had it in my army". They will try to make it work. This codex just makes it easier since, with price drops across the board, some of those options that usually would take monumental effort to make work now takes less work.

At the high competitive level, I agree. Little to nothing will change. At the Friday night beer and pretzel table, you may start seeing different units on the board that you haven't seen in a while. At least a few people here on Dakka have voiced their intention to field falcons and fire prisms since they actually look worthwhile now.

Shock horror....I will be playing Iyanden as Craftworld Iyanden. Looking forward to wraith constructs getting rebuilt and not really suffering from degraded stats. A unit of 5 WG exiting from a web portal sounds great too (unless that is Ulthwe only?)

Well, Alaitoc seems to be the most competitive CW.
But not everybody wants to play Alaitoc for fluff reasons.
I wish we could get back the old disruption table.

 bullyboy wrote:
Shock horror....I will be playing Iyanden as Craftworld Iyanden. Looking forward to wraith constructs getting rebuilt and not really suffering from degraded stats. A unit of 5 WG exiting from a web portal sounds great too (unless that is Ulthwe only?)

Thats a general Craftworlds Strategem, the Ulthwe Strategem is specifically for Guardians (I think it's the one that gives them +1 to hit). Personally I'll be using the Ulthwe trait for my Iyanden army as the actual Iyanden trait does nothing for them and I've already got two other players in my group fielding armys with the Alaitoc trait so a little variety will be nice.

 Imateria wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
Shock horror....I will be playing Iyanden as Craftworld Iyanden. Looking forward to wraith constructs getting rebuilt and not really suffering from degraded stats. A unit of 5 WG exiting from a web portal sounds great too (unless that is Ulthwe only?)

Thats a general Craftworlds Strategem, the Ulthwe Strategem is specifically for Guardians (I think it's the one that gives them +1 to hit). Personally I'll be using the Ulthwe trait for my Iyanden army as the actual Iyanden trait does nothing for them and I've already got two other players in my group fielding armys with the Alaitoc trait so a little variety will be nice.

My fluff based list will be Alaitoc, but my "stronger" list will be a mix between Alaitoc, Saim-Hann and Ulthwe - just cos....

 Imateria wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
Shock horror....I will be playing Iyanden as Craftworld Iyanden. Looking forward to wraith constructs getting rebuilt and not really suffering from degraded stats. A unit of 5 WG exiting from a web portal sounds great too (unless that is Ulthwe only?)

Thats a general Craftworlds Strategem, the Ulthwe Strategem is specifically for Guardians (I think it's the one that gives them +1 to hit). Personally I'll be using the Ulthwe trait for my Iyanden army as the actual Iyanden trait does nothing for them and I've already got two other players in my group fielding armys with the Alaitoc trait so a little variety will be nice.

I wouldn't say it does nothing for them. Wraithlords and knights (if you take them of course) along with vehicles continue to function at full capacity even when on low wounds. I'm also now tempted to take a Guardian sqd or 2 just to get access to more command points and will nto have to worry about their morale at all. Is it the best/ No, that's been discussed to death, but it's not worthless.

I have my own homebrew Craftworld so I am free to pick whatever I want. From the fluff I've thought for it, Iyanden or Ulthwe make the most sense, but I might just pick Alaitoc due to how strong it is. Although I want my core to be like Wraith units and some Guardians (maybe tank sand weapons batteries and war walkers) and a handful of aspects to fill gaps.

 bullyboy wrote:

 Imateria wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
Shock horror....I will be playing Iyanden as Craftworld Iyanden. Looking forward to wraith constructs getting rebuilt and not really suffering from degraded stats. A unit of 5 WG exiting from a web portal sounds great too (unless that is Ulthwe only?)

Thats a general Craftworlds Strategem, the Ulthwe Strategem is specifically for Guardians (I think it's the one that gives them +1 to hit). Personally I'll be using the Ulthwe trait for my Iyanden army as the actual Iyanden trait does nothing for them and I've already got two other players in my group fielding armys with the Alaitoc trait so a little variety will be nice.

I wouldn't say it does nothing for them. Wraithlords and knights (if you take them of course) along with vehicles continue to function at full capacity even when on low wounds. I'm also now tempted to take a Guardian sqd or 2 just to get access to more command points and will nto have to worry about their morale at all. Is it the best/ No, that's been discussed to death, but it's not worthless.

In my case I only have 2 Wave Serpents and don't want to turn the list into Serpent spam, whilst the Wraithlord and Knight don't seem to have had any meaningful buffs so they'll stay on the shelf for the rest of 8th. As for Guardians, I hate the models so will not run them ever, will probably go for Rangers instead. All this means that the Wraithguar/blades heavy list I have will get no benefit at all out of the Iyanden trait.

In my case I only have 2 Wave Serpents and don't want to turn the list into Serpent spam, whilst the Wraithlord and Knight don't seem to have had any meaningful buffs so they'll stay on the shelf for the rest of 8th. As for Guardians, I hate the models so will not run them ever, will probably go for Rangers instead. All this means that the Wraithguar/blades heavy list I have will get no benefit at all out of the Iyanden trait.

In this case, I'd play Ynnari since infantry (and also bikers) benefit from SfD.

I think the best (or worst) part about the Alaitoc trait is that is so generic that it doesn't even need to represent Alaitoc. Both Dark Eldar units (Venoms) and Harlies have -1 to be hit rules, so it is clearly an Aeldari ability that could be common.
You can have a Saim-Hann army that has -1 to hit because your particular warband it skilled as darting around. Or an Ulthwe force that uses their innate psychic ability to obscure themselves to their enemy.

Mixing and matching abilities (Saim-Hann using the Biel-tan trait, Iyanden using Ulthwe trait, ec) is going to be fairly common, but Alaitoc stands out because is can apply to any CW from a fluff standpoint AND it's a strong trait.
You cannot say the same about the other traits (Iyanden trait makes no sense for Alaitoc or Biel-tan, for example)

-

stratigo wrote:


I think Alaitoc is a top table faction

While this is possibly true, if that happens then the meta may shift to account for it. Obliterators, raptors, terminators, scions, anything with a deepstrike or infiltrate ability can all pop in and completely negate the alaitoc trait. These aren't uncommon units anyway.

I do think alaitoc is strong, but I don't think it's unbeatable. It may get to the top table, but the other top table armies will change to counter it pretty easily.

Niiru wrote:

stratigo wrote:


I think Alaitoc is a top table faction

While this is possibly true, if that happens then the meta may shift to account for it. Obliterators, raptors, terminators, scions, anything with a deepstrike or infiltrate ability can all pop in and completely negate the alaitoc trait. These aren't uncommon units anyway.

I do think alaitoc is strong, but I don't think it's unbeatable. It may get to the top table, but the other top table armies will change to counter it pretty easily.

The thing about reactions like this is that even if the -1 modifier doesn't actually get used, it's still having an impact on the way your opponent plays. Of course, the trick with that is using the shift to your favour. The stronger Alaitoc lists will be the ones that can take advantage of your opponents having to get closer to be more effective.

It's a roundabout way of doing things, but I am glad that flamer-style weapons are starting to become somewhat effective, at least in some ways.

 Fafnir wrote:

Niiru wrote:

stratigo wrote:


I think Alaitoc is a top table faction

While this is possibly true, if that happens then the meta may shift to account for it. Obliterators, raptors, terminators, scions, anything with a deepstrike or infiltrate ability can all pop in and completely negate the alaitoc trait. These aren't uncommon units anyway.

I do think alaitoc is strong, but I don't think it's unbeatable. It may get to the top table, but the other top table armies will change to counter it pretty easily.

The thing about reactions like this is that even if the -1 modifier doesn't actually get used, it's still having an impact on the way your opponent plays. Of course, the trick with that is using the shift to your favour. The stronger Alaitoc lists will be the ones that can take advantage of your opponents having to get closer to be more effective.

It's a roundabout way of doing things, but I am glad that flamer-style weapons are starting to become somewhat effective, at least in some ways.

That is true, as Eldar shooting is (stupidly) very short ranged. Guardians, Avengers and Wraiths would be especially pleased if you turned up within 12" of them. As would spectres and warp spiders... in fact I think there's quite a lot of units with 12" ranges.

Niiru wrote:

 Fafnir wrote:

Niiru wrote:

stratigo wrote:


I think Alaitoc is a top table faction

While this is possibly true, if that happens then the meta may shift to account for it. Obliterators, raptors, terminators, scions, anything with a deepstrike or infiltrate ability can all pop in and completely negate the alaitoc trait. These aren't uncommon units anyway.

I do think alaitoc is strong, but I don't think it's unbeatable. It may get to the top table, but the other top table armies will change to counter it pretty easily.

The thing about reactions like this is that even if the -1 modifier doesn't actually get used, it's still having an impact on the way your opponent plays. Of course, the trick with that is using the shift to your favour. The stronger Alaitoc lists will be the ones that can take advantage of your opponents having to get closer to be more effective.

It's a roundabout way of doing things, but I am glad that flamer-style weapons are starting to become somewhat effective, at least in some ways.

That is true, as Eldar shooting is (stupidly) very short ranged. Guardians, Avengers and Wraiths would be especially pleased if you turned up within 12" of them. As would spectres and warp spiders... in fact I think there's quite a lot of units with 12" ranges.

Spectres are 18" range. But the pressure to come in close should help make them ridiculously good (and fun!) with smart use of the jump-shoot-jump stratagem and your choice of fire modes.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
I'm actually interested in playing a Guardian-centric force with Biel Tan, of all things. Grumbling aside, I do find their Craftworld trait interesting, and playing traditional Guardian eldar (Defender squads, war walkers, weapon batteries and Farseer backed by some non-Wave serpent tanks) is something I wanted to do for a while.

This. I am totally psyched about taking my aspect warrior list and using guardians again.

Dire a answers, guardians with weapon platforms, war walkers, and bikers, all with shuriken weapons, trying to take everything out with only shuriken weapons (Oh, your toughness 8? Suck shuriken cannon!).

Seriously though, I definitely like what's changed here. Fluff should always have a place in army building and the new eldar codex has that going just fine.

 Imateria wrote:
whilst the Wraithlord and Knight don't seem to have had any meaningful buffs so they'll stay on the shelf for the rest of 8th.

The Wraithlord got buffed to T8 and also got an extra attack so it now compares pretty favourably with the SM Deadnought.

Sadly the WK is roughly 100 points overpriced compared to the IK and that is scarcely a powerhouse unit in 8th. :(

 Karhedron wrote:

 Imateria wrote:
whilst the Wraithlord and Knight don't seem to have had any meaningful buffs so they'll stay on the shelf for the rest of 8th.

The Wraithlord got buffed to T8 and also got an extra attack so it now compares pretty favourably with the SM Deadnought.

Sadly the WK is roughly 100 points overpriced compared to the IK and that is scarcely a powerhouse unit in 8th. :(

Whats the points on the Dreadnaught? I get the feeling it's cheaper whilst being either better at shooting, better at close combat or at least as good a generalist.

Well when comparing wraithlords with sm dreads you're basically looking at a dread with a power fist and a twin lascannon/twin something else. The downside to our version is that we can't choose to swap the melee arm for more guns. Still, for a generalist setup, I think ours is ok now that it's been buffed.

shortymcnostrill wrote:
Well when comparing wraithlords with sm dreads you're basically looking at a dread with a power fist and a twin lascannon/twin something else. The downside to our version is that we can't choose to swap the melee arm for more guns. Still, for a generalist setup, I think ours is ok now that it's been buffed.

Well if you're going to compare, a Wraithlord is essentially a standard Dread with the toughness of an Ironclad Dread. So you get the range and the durability. I don't think they're hurting too much.

Would this apply to the Wraithseer or is an all-Wraithlord Army still boned because it's warlord is worse than the line troops?