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So, are warlocks too expensive or are spiritseers too cheap? Obviously 10pt difference doesnt make the warlock attractive since the seer has full smite and 4 wounds, the latter being important since it means a single perils cant kill him and decimate nearby units.
Playing Iyanden, the seer is fluffy for me but I'd like to take warlocks when playing Ulthwe.
bullyboy wrote: So, are warlocks too expensive or are spiritseers too cheap? Obviously 10pt difference doesnt make the warlock attractive since the seer has full smite and 4 wounds, the latter being important since it means a single perils cant kill him and decimate nearby units. Playing Iyanden, the seer is fluffy for me but I'd like to take warlocks when playing Ulthwe.
I think Spiritseers are about right. They could be 50ppm and still be good Warlocks, otoh, are definitely too expensive. Character Warlocks should be no more than 30ppm and Conclave warlocks should be 25ppm or less. The only reason to ever take Warlocks is to take Skyrunners, but they are also too expensive. 2 Skyrunner Warlocks should cost less than a Skyrunner Farseer, but they do not.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/30 13:05:12
Which model is supposed to be used for a standard Autarch? If GW only has rules for models, why drop the warp jump autarch and keep rules for a model that doesnt exist?
Granted, they probably expect you to use Yriel but he has Iyanden runes on him. Just an odd choice IMHO.
bullyboy wrote: So, are warlocks too expensive or are spiritseers too cheap? Obviously 10pt difference doesnt make the warlock attractive since the seer has full smite and 4 wounds, the latter being important since it means a single perils cant kill him and decimate nearby units.
Playing Iyanden, the seer is fluffy for me but I'd like to take warlocks when playing Ulthwe.
I think Spiritseers are about right. They could be 50ppm and still be good
Warlocks, otoh, are definitely too expensive. Character Warlocks should be no more than 30ppm and Conclave warlocks should be 25ppm or less.
The only reason to ever take Warlocks is to take Skyrunners, but they are also too expensive. 2 Skyrunner Warlocks should cost less than a Skyrunner Farseer, but they do not.
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Personally, i tend to agree that the basic warlock is too expensive for a 2 wound model, especially when it means you've got a 66% chance of killing yourself and other models if you peril. As for warlock skyrunners, i feel that they are ok when compared to a farseer skyrunner. 2 warlocks are only 5 points more than the farseer, which is the cost of the extra twin shuriken catapult... However, i wouldn't say no if gw decided to change it so they were 5 or 10 points cheaper. But, the set of powers they get are so good, it'd be hard to justify.
wuestenfux wrote: Not the ''normal flamer'', but e.g. the heavy incinerator with 12'' range.
lol, dude, it took me a few minutes of searching to figure out what units can even take a heavy incinerator. I totally thought you'd be talking about Scions, or heavy weapon teams, or something else cheap and spammable that would be a decent unit to throw at cheapo rangers in cover.
Freaking. Nemesis. Dreadknights.
If the opponent decides to send his 250 point + dreadknight against a 60 point unit of Rangers, then those rangers have done their job. Especially as, while the dreadknight is messing around burning small units of Rangers, the Eldar player will completely destroy it in one turn with Fire Prisms, or War Walkers, or Vypers, or anything else that the opponent should be focussing on more than Rangers.
Also, while we are at it, I don't really get your point... is there any 60-point troops choice in the ENTIRE GAME that won't die easily to a Dreadknight with dual heavy incinerators? I mean yeh, concscripts I guess, because you have like 20 of them.
Dont take it too seriously.
There are also situations in which fast moving units with flamers can reach the enemy front ranks and then fry some Rangers.
Do you want an example? Assault Marines can have flamers.
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bullyboy wrote: Which model is supposed to be used for a standard Autarch? If GW only has rules for models, why drop the warp jump autarch and keep rules for a model that doesnt exist?
Granted, they probably expect you to use Yriel but he has Iyanden runes on him. Just an odd choice IMHO.
They probably chose too keep the basic Autarch because it would seem weird not to have the basic form of a model when you have two variant versions.
I too believe they expect you to use Yriel. You can always remove the Iyanden iconography.
I disagree - gardians have become a pretty stellar unit with the new codex. A 20 man unit in a webway drop can be buffed up to some pretty extreme levels and really become a nusance.
Heres the combo
1CP to drop in the guardians - 1 command point to make them +1 to hit. Then you guide them. Then you hit them with Yvraines soulburst ability and reroll 1's. This is an insane amount of Dakka for 200 points. the bright lances are 3+ reroll ones even though they moved and everything else is just rerolling 76 bladestorm shots and 4 birght lances that only miss on 2's.
If you have a warlock or a hemlock nearby you can hit them with +1 save and then hit them with a 4++ save with another command point - that becomes a 3++. Ulthwe have 6+ FNP too. So They are pretty much forced to ignore them - or charge them to tie them up and then they can just use another command point to fallback and shoot. This is a lot of command point use but with an autarch and ulthwe warlord trait it's possible you are getting some of them back.
It's not that this is weak, but there's a massive opportunity cost here. I would also note that the value of this combo is pretty divorced from the actual cost of the Guardians themselves -- they could cost 9 and it wouldn't be much less appealing or 7 and it wouldn't be much more appealing. Ultimately, you're allocating half of a 100 point Farseer, a ~40 point RoB psyker (and the use of one of the best RoB powers), and the much more valuable of 132 point Yvraine's two psychic powers to this, plus you're paying 50 points for heavy weapons and planning on spending at least 2 CP (including one on a very in-demand stratagem). This is at least 400 points' worth of stuff. Like, for 70 more points you get a full squad of Shining Spears which get just as many catapult shots plus a ton of laser lance attacks if you can make a charge and/or move them closer somehow (Quicken, Soulburst, or Fire and Fade followed by Soulburst), get a 2+/3++ with Protect without having to use another CP, and which are then massively more mobile in later turns while being much less vulnerable to getting tied up in CC.
I feel like you probably only want to be using Guardians cheaply, because once you start adding in the cost of support other options look a lot more appealing. A 20-man unit deep-striking in is pretty good, especially with morale mitigation like the Alatoic warlord trait, but you probably don't want to bother with all the other stuff except maybe the 4++ if they get targeted. Likewise 10-man units in Serpents are decent if unspectacular options. I would certainly put them as the best or second-best Troops pick, with Rangers as the other, but I'm not sure you'd take very many of either if they weren't Troops.
I don't really see the case for Dire Avengers. In your edit you mention Asurmen, but Asurmen is 175 points and is otherwise not that good. This is not a screening force. Even in cover, Dire Avengers near Asurmen are just not that durable in the face of most kinds of anti-infantry shooting, which is what will be used against them anyway and which the 4++ won't even matter for. I think it's uncontroversial at this point that tactical Marines in the open are not very durable. A bolter hit kills 2.17 points of 3+ Marine, and a heavy bolter hit kills 4.33 points of 3+ Marine. Bolter and heavy bolter hits alike kill 4 points of 4+/4++ Avenger, and even if they're in cover the bolter still kills 2.67 points' worth. (Alatoic) Rangers in cover are exactly as durable as Avengers when shot with flamers and are far more durable in the face of (heavy) bolter fire. They also shoot a lot better if the enemy isn't coming to you and are actually not that much worse against MEQs even at close range.
You make good points. It's also not easy to acquire command points in eldar as their troops aren't cheap. I still think the 20 man Guardian drop has potential with soulburst. Then again - A 10 man dark reaper does too and it doesn't even require command points to work. Rangers fit best into the gun line concept I guess and they are pretty cheap. Eldar just don't seem like a good gunline army to me. Their best damage comes at close range. I guess you could build a list with all long range shooting. Fireprisms/darkreapers/warwalkers/crimson hunters all have good firepower per cost. Maybe the gardian deepstrike has more value as a defensive drop than offense?
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
I disagree - gardians have become a pretty stellar unit with the new codex. A 20 man unit in a webway drop can be buffed up to some pretty extreme levels and really become a nusance.
You stumbled upon the thing I've been trying lately, and having a ton of fun with.
20 Guardians with 2 Shuriken Cannons coming out of Webway Strike to perform as a roadblock/forward line/general headache. What has REALLY surprised me is that 36 Shuriken Catapult shots and 6 Cannon shots with the Biel-Tan craftworld trait is deceptively strong. I put Protect on them, as well, and kept the CP ready to give them the 4+ invulnerable save (3+ with protect active). They've far exceeded my expectations. Took down about half a Rhino, 5-ish Noise Marines, 5-ish Berserkers in overwatch, an enemy Farseer on jetbike, a full squad of Hellions, and a Chaos Sorcerer in just two games. They also got beat up by Kharne in melee because Jain Zar kept knocking away his axe so he'd take out that frustration on the poor Guardians, they also did more damage to Kharne than Jain did thanks to some good invuls from Kharne, and some bad wound rolls from Jain. The one snag with Guardians like that would be their Morale. It is easy to force some morale casualties on them, especially when Protect + Celestial Shield (or whatever the stratagem is named) are not available.
All-in-all, though, I have been REALLY pleased with Webway Striking Guardian blobs. It addresses one of their most obvious weaknesses: engaging them with that shoddy 12" gun so that your opponent has to make a decision on whether they are worth the resources to remove.
Indeed, a large Guardian Defender unit popping out of the webway can be rather scary. The Biel Tan attribute is mandatory here.
Surprisingly, they can be made quite durable for a short while.
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The rangers though they dropped a lot I just don't see their value. They have no offense and their defense is easy to override with assault/flamers/and ignore cover. Dark reapers eat them for breakfast.
Are Reapers better? Sure they are but Rangers are much cheaper and they are Troops which is useful for ObjSec and farming CPs.
Rangers also have double the range of the next nearest contender in the Troops section (Guardian platforms aside) which means they don't need transports or Webway shenanigans (which eat up your CPs). Just drop your Rangers on a cosy objective on a flank and plink away with them.
Nobody is claiming they are a powerhouse unit but for 60 points they are decent in the right context. If you opponent dedicates something more expensive to hunting them down then they are probably worth the distraction. Best result is if your opponent shoots them half-heartedly in the hope of shifting them and ends up splitting his firepower without seriously affecting the Rangers.
I stand between the darkness and the light. Between the candle and the star.
daedalus wrote: Each Runes of Battle effect counts as a different power for matched play. You can Conceal a unit, and then Reveal a different one. That's fascinating.
daedalus wrote: Anyone else notice that there's an effective 18 different psychic powers to cast?
Each Runes of Battle effect counts as a different power for matched play. You can Conceal a unit, and then Reveal a different one. That's fascinating.
Yeah - I think at least 3-4 warlocks are needed in your eldar force these days. Too bad they only have 1 power each. It's also too bad farseers can't use the runes of battle...these powers are pretty much better than runes of fate from a buff perspective. Runes of fate is pretty much offensive except for fortune and the morale buff. I really want to run a big unit of warlocks but I think they are much better utilized as single models so they remain characters.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
daedalus wrote: Anyone else notice that there's an effective 18 different psychic powers to cast?
Each Runes of Battle effect counts as a different power for matched play. You can Conceal a unit, and then Reveal a different one. That's fascinating.
Yeah - I think at least 3-4 warlocks are needed in your eldar force these days. Too bad they only have 1 power each. It's also too bad farseers can't use the runes of battle...these powers are pretty much better than runes of fate from a buff perspective. Runes of fate is pretty much offensive except for fortune and the morale buff. I really want to run a big unit of warlocks but I think they are much better utilized as single models so they remain characters.
Supreme Command detachment, 3 Warlocks for 105 points... and the CP from it is a nice bonus. Really nice solution to that problem
daedalus wrote: Each Runes of Battle effect counts as a different power for matched play. You can Conceal a unit, and then Reveal a different one. That's fascinating.
You always could.
Huh. Yeah, I guess you can. I'm pretty sure my opponents had always been playing it as casting either/or. Still, 18 powers is pretty amazing though.
daedalus wrote: Anyone else notice that there's an effective 18 different psychic powers to cast?
Each Runes of Battle effect counts as a different power for matched play. You can Conceal a unit, and then Reveal a different one. That's fascinating.
Yeah - I think at least 3-4 warlocks are needed in your eldar force these days. Too bad they only have 1 power each. It's also too bad farseers can't use the runes of battle...these powers are pretty much better than runes of fate from a buff perspective. Runes of fate is pretty much offensive except for fortune and the morale buff. I really want to run a big unit of warlocks but I think they are much better utilized as single models so they remain characters.
Supreme Command detachment, 3 Warlocks for 105 points... and the CP from it is a nice bonus. Really nice solution to that problem
Yep - was thinking the same thing. You can even make them whatever craftworld you want in this situation.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
daedalus wrote: Each Runes of Battle effect counts as a different power for matched play. You can Conceal a unit, and then Reveal a different one. That's fascinating.
You always could.
Huh. Yeah, I guess you can. I'm pretty sure my opponents had always been playing it as casting either/or. Still, 18 powers is pretty amazing though.
Oh yes, the extra powers are really nice, but it's annoying that you only get one non-smite power for each RoB psyker.
I disagree - gardians have become a pretty stellar unit with the new codex. A 20 man unit in a webway drop can be buffed up to some pretty extreme levels and really become a nusance.
You stumbled upon the thing I've been trying lately, and having a ton of fun with.
20 Guardians with 2 Shuriken Cannons coming out of Webway Strike to perform as a roadblock/forward line/general headache. What has REALLY surprised me is that 36 Shuriken Catapult shots and 6 Cannon shots with the Biel-Tan craftworld trait is deceptively strong. I put Protect on them, as well, and kept the CP ready to give them the 4+ invulnerable save (3+ with protect active). They've far exceeded my expectations. Took down about half a Rhino, 5-ish Noise Marines, 5-ish Berserkers in overwatch, an enemy Farseer on jetbike, a full squad of Hellions, and a Chaos Sorcerer in just two games. They also got beat up by Kharne in melee because Jain Zar kept knocking away his axe so he'd take out that frustration on the poor Guardians, they also did more damage to Kharne than Jain did thanks to some good invuls from Kharne, and some bad wound rolls from Jain. The one snag with Guardians like that would be their Morale. It is easy to force some morale casualties on them, especially when Protect + Celestial Shield (or whatever the stratagem is named) are not available.
All-in-all, though, I have been REALLY pleased with Webway Striking Guardian blobs. It addresses one of their most obvious weaknesses: engaging them with that shoddy 12" gun so that your opponent has to make a decision on whether they are worth the resources to remove.
I've got this pretty much refined down with my Alaitoc army (I was Alaitoc before the codex too, my 20 Guardians are all converted lol)
Webway strike the Guardians for 1CP, then have a Shiftshroud relic Warlord Farseer (Alaitoc relic) pop up in support of them. Farseer has Guide and Fortune for casting on the Guardians, as well as the Alaitoc Puritanical Leader Warlord Trait, giving the Guardians autopass on morale.
Whole setup only costs 1CP and the Farseer and Guardians themselves are only 290 odd points for the package.
daedalus wrote: Anyone else notice that there's an effective 18 different psychic powers to cast?
Each Runes of Battle effect counts as a different power for matched play. You can Conceal a unit, and then Reveal a different one. That's fascinating.
Yeah - I think at least 3-4 warlocks are needed in your eldar force these days. Too bad they only have 1 power each. It's also too bad farseers can't use the runes of battle...these powers are pretty much better than runes of fate from a buff perspective. Runes of fate is pretty much offensive except for fortune and the morale buff. I really want to run a big unit of warlocks but I think they are much better utilized as single models so they remain characters.
Supreme Command detachment, 3 Warlocks for 105 points... and the CP from it is a nice bonus. Really nice solution to that problem
I love the Supreme Command detachment. Coming from a very 2nd edition army composition mindset I always like to have a few more characters than the basic 2 that Patrols give you. That it nets us an extra CP is all the better. It's also a cheeky way to stick in an extra Elite unit too.
Not sure why you'd willingly choose Warlocks, though (at least, from a competitive standpoint).
Smitespam might be nerfed and that's all well and good, but for 10 points I will 100% take the ability to survive one peril and not require me to burn a reroll over getting instagibbed 2/3 times when you peril.
Peril deaths are a much bigger deal in 8th than 7th.
The Eldar list I just wrote up for my force features 1 farseer, 5 spiritseers and a Hemlock (for Horrify). Every RoB power is worth taking, and none of them are blatantly OP with the nerf to Conceal.
New Runes of Battle may actually be the single best psychic table we've ever seen in the game. Nothing broken, nothing worthless, all worth around 35/45 points to grab a character to bring to the table.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
the_scotsman wrote: Not sure why you'd willingly choose Warlocks, though (at least, from a competitive standpoint).
Smitespam might be nerfed and that's all well and good, but for 10 points I will 100% take the ability to survive one peril and not require me to burn a reroll over getting instagibbed 2/3 times when you peril.
Peril deaths are a much bigger deal in 8th than 7th.
The Eldar list I just wrote up for my force features 1 farseer, 5 spiritseers and a Hemlock (for Horrify). Every RoB power is worth taking, and none of them are blatantly OP with the nerf to Conceal.
New Runes of Battle may actually be the single best psychic table we've ever seen in the game. Nothing broken, nothing worthless, all worth around 35/45 points to grab a character to bring to the table.
Because it gets the point across without having to dive into tactics, point investments, configurations and blah blah.
Yes, you can make a Supreme Command with 3 Spirit Seers and enjoy all those perks for 135 instead of 105.
Me, personally? Love being a bit more fluffy. Farseer + Warlock/Spirit Seer in a Supreme Command and call it part of the Warhost's Council. Not like I wasn't bringing a Farseer, either way!
the_scotsman wrote: Not sure why you'd willingly choose Warlocks, though (at least, from a competitive standpoint).
Smitespam might be nerfed and that's all well and good, but for 10 points I will 100% take the ability to survive one peril and not require me to burn a reroll over getting instagibbed 2/3 times when you peril.
Peril deaths are a much bigger deal in 8th than 7th.
The Eldar list I just wrote up for my force features 1 farseer, 5 spiritseers and a Hemlock (for Horrify). Every RoB power is worth taking, and none of them are blatantly OP with the nerf to Conceal.
New Runes of Battle may actually be the single best psychic table we've ever seen in the game. Nothing broken, nothing worthless, all worth around 35/45 points to grab a character to bring to the table.
They have the same psychic ability -1 the smite. Safe to say you wont ever be casting smite with a warlock anyways though. Most of the warlock powers are better than smite. So it really just comes down to the points you have available. You get 4 warlocks for every 3 spirit seers. The main drawback is in durability but in character form warlocks are immune to enemy shooting anyways. They probably should cost 5 points less but runes of battle is also as you say - the best psychic discipline yet released.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
the_scotsman wrote: Not sure why you'd willingly choose Warlocks, though (at least, from a competitive standpoint).
Smitespam might be nerfed and that's all well and good, but for 10 points I will 100% take the ability to survive one peril and not require me to burn a reroll over getting instagibbed 2/3 times when you peril.
Peril deaths are a much bigger deal in 8th than 7th.
The Eldar list I just wrote up for my force features 1 farseer, 5 spiritseers and a Hemlock (for Horrify). Every RoB power is worth taking, and none of them are blatantly OP with the nerf to Conceal.
New Runes of Battle may actually be the single best psychic table we've ever seen in the game. Nothing broken, nothing worthless, all worth around 35/45 points to grab a character to bring to the table.
Because it gets the point across without having to dive into tactics, point investments, configurations and blah blah.
Yes, you can make a Supreme Command with 3 Spirit Seers and enjoy all those perks for 135 instead of 105.
Me, personally? Love being a bit more fluffy. Farseer + Warlock/Spirit Seer in a Supreme Command and call it part of the Warhost's Council. Not like I wasn't bringing a Farseer, either way!
Yeah, I'm just using the warlock models as Spiritseers aka "warlocks who aren't garbage at being psykers". I like the models better. Just like how I use a Wyrdvane model as my primaris - the puffed up space wizard sculpt just doesn't do it for me.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
Xenomancers wrote: You get 4 warlocks for every 3 spirit seers. The main drawback is in durability but in character form warlocks are immune to enemy shooting anyways.
What they aren't immune to, as has been pointed out and ignored by you already, is Perils. Which will not only be ignored by a Spiritseer and kill a Warlock, but also kill whatever that Warlock is standing next to.
"'players must agree how they are going to select their armies, and if any restrictions apply to the number and type of models they can use."
This is an actual rule in the actual rulebook. Quit whining about how you can imagine someone's army touching you in a bad place and play by the actual rules.
Freelance Ontologist
When people ask, "What's the point in understanding everything?" they've just disqualified themselves from using questions and should disappear in a puff of paradox. But they don't understand and just continue existing, which are also their only two strategies for life.
Yep...a Toughness 3, two-wound model is a psychic bomb waiting to go off in the middle of your army --- particularly when your casting impacts units at very close distance, meaning you're standing next to them.
Warlocks suck cheesy choad. I'll still take a couple because I have the models, but they've fallen so comically far from what they used to be...makes me sad panda.
Elbows wrote: Yep...a Toughness 3, two-wound model is a psychic bomb waiting to go off in the middle of your army --- particularly when your casting impacts units at very close distance, meaning you're standing next to them.
Warlocks suck cheesy choad. I'll still take a couple because I have the models, but they've fallen so comically far from what they used to be...makes me sad panda.
I feel it necessary to point out that many of the runes of battle are no longer auras and have a range of 18". While your warlocks are still wandering psychic landmines... the fact that they have to be right up close to friendly models to work is misleading.
You can certainly position to mitigate the perils... or take spiritseers.
wuestenfux wrote: Indeed, a large Guardian Defender unit popping out of the webway can be rather scary. The Biel Tan attribute is mandatory here.
Surprisingly, they can be made quite durable for a short while.
I disagree with Biel Tan attribute being mandatory, I don't even think it's the second best.
Alaitoc you can freely bring a character in support, who if warlord, confers fearless. 100 point Farseer is pretty useful - Guide and Fortune perhaps. Also Alaitoc trait sometimes in play.
Ulthwe, you can just drop the Guardians as is without support character and still be effective: 1CP for +1 to hit and FotD. Not quite as good as rerolls and Fortune and fearless but without the 100 point warlord character.
Biel Tan rerolling hit rolls of 1 for Shurikens comes 3rd.
Being a long time Biel Tan player I'm pretty happy with the traits. Free captain aura for all models shooting shuriken weapons is deceptively good.
Warlord trait is also quite good on a Farseer. Basically a free cast of Guide on a unit (albeit short range)
"Courage and Honour. I hear you murmur these words in the mist, in their wake I hear your hearts beat harder with false conviction seeking to convince yourselves that a brave death has meaning.
There is no courage to be found here my nephews, no honour to be had. Your souls will join the trillion others in the mist shrieking uselessly to eternity, weeping for the empire you could not save.
To the unfaithful, I bring holy plagues ripe with enlightenment. To the devout, I bring the blessing of immortality through the kiss of sacred rot.
And to you, new-born sons of Gulliman, to you flesh crafted puppets of a failing Imperium I bring the holiest gift of all.... Silence."
- Mortarion, The Death Lord, The Reaper of Men, Daemon Primarch of Nurgle
NurglesR0T wrote: Being a long time Biel Tan player I'm pretty happy with the traits. Free captain aura for all models shooting shuriken weapons is deceptively good.
Warlord trait is also quite good on a Farseer. Basically a free cast of Guide on a unit (albeit short range)
Not saying it's bad overall, it's just not the best pick for Webway Guardians. I'd even put Iyanden ahead of it, just because if you're bringing a couple of heavy weapons platforms with your Webway Guardian drop, that morale boosting trait has a big impact in ensuring the opponent can't just rely on morale to take care of the platforms.
So Alaitoc has the best benefits, but you probably want to commit more to take advantage of character support.
Then Ulthwe and Iyanden,
Then Biel Tan,
Last Saim Hain, but you probably want to go a different way than Guardians with their WWP given reroll to charges.
Xenomancers wrote: You get 4 warlocks for every 3 spirit seers. The main drawback is in durability but in character form warlocks are immune to enemy shooting anyways.
What they aren't immune to, as has been pointed out and ignored by you already, is Perils. Which will not only be ignored by a Spiritseer and kill a Warlock, but also kill whatever that Warlock is standing next to.
I think Mortal wounds only effect the unit and can not spill over into another unit.
" I'm sorry, but after 7200 's that has to be the most annoying sign-off ever." 
Craftworld Sciatháin 4180 pts 
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