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The jumpmaster was always underpriced (about 3-4 pts), why FFG didn't just change its value rather try all these different fixes is anyones guess. ASLAM should have always worked that way. Biggs is a pain to play against but there are ways around him (secondaries, playing with arcs and ranges) so I am not overly keen on nerfing the only usable T-65 into the ground.
Will be interesting to see how the meta will shape up now and whether arc dodging aces make a come back (bet they would have if Sabine had been nerfed as she should), Miranda will just change to using missiles instead, FSR will probably remain, RAC/lo will probably see more use, Nym still has utility but just not as much, ps11 alpha is unaffected...

 Ineedvc2500 wrote:
Hate to say it but i think formats may be the answer. This nerf is way over the line. Too many drastic changes when simple point increases here or there would suffice. Theyve butchered these poor ships. The more they tighten their grip...

or a flat out 2.0, the newer ships are mostly flat out better, eg Reload is an interesting idea but why dont K-Wings or Punishers have it, like lots of the older ships should be able to T-roll or S-loop, band-aid upgrades are all very well but what happens when you need to band-aid the band-aids ?

Also with FFG dipping their toe into the digital would having all the cards offically available to print be a stretch, seems to work for Privateer

It is past time for a second edition, however you can see how that would mess with FFGs business model. Isn't the digital side of things a whole different license?

By digital I meant more online support, obviously having a card database would mess with their whole LCG mindset but given a fair few cards don't do what's printed on them anymore (kind of a major entry barrier) then its not a great step from making PDF's of those cards to all the cards, the whole 'must use our cards' thing for 'organised'' play is just a petty holdover from the CCG/LCG world, no third party models sure, but the card thing is just daft.

Kind of at a loss for words on this.

I will just say what's on my mind:

Wow, this doesn't make me want to buy any more ships out of fear of the Nerf-bat.

Why are they not offering replacement cards?

Shouldn't these problems have been caught during beta?

 ProtoClone wrote:
Kind of at a loss for words on this.

I will just say what's on my mind:

Wow, this doesn't make me want to buy any more ships [out of fear of the Nerf-bat.]

This is where I am. Guns for Hire came out, and despite wanting to actually field Starvipers, I have no plans to pick it up. Same for anything in wave 12/13. FFG has shown they really don't know what they're doing with X-Wing anymore.

 streamdragon wrote:

 ProtoClone wrote:
Kind of at a loss for words on this.

I will just say what's on my mind:

Wow, this doesn't make me want to buy any more ships [out of fear of the Nerf-bat.]

This is where I am. Guns for Hire came out, and despite wanting to actually field Starvipers, I have no plans to pick it up. Same for anything in wave 12/13. FFG has shown they really don't know what they're doing with X-Wing anymore.

Yarp I suspect I'll still play the odd game but as for actual purchases I'm oot

 ProtoClone wrote:
Kind of at a loss for words on this.

I will just say what's on my mind:

Wow, this doesn't make me want to buy any more ships out of fear of the Nerf-bat.

Why are they not offering replacement cards?

Shouldn't these problems have been caught during beta?

Are you really that shocked? This is standard practice across every table top game that lasts more than a few years. I'm actually surprised it's taken this long with X-Wing. It's actually a bit of a relief that Fantasy Flight Games has finally stepped over that line. It's a relief because it means FFG is invested in the game and intends to continue support and development on it. You don't release such an FAQ with these kind of ramifications for a game you are about to stop supporting.

Yeah, I don't get the fear here. FFG swatted some of the biggest and most annoying flies buzzing around, and while some of the changes weren't done the way I'd personally do it I'm more than happy to see the game shaken up and the dominant meta change for once.

I think its more we've more or less reached the limits of the design space and are just flailing about in gimmick mechanics and really obscure ships, which we knew was going to happen eventually from the outset

Maybe the J5K was an honest mistake, but given the bodged attempts at fixes culminating in more or less invalidating the entire ship, when a simple 5-7ish point increase would have addressed the majority of issues, doesn't really inspire confidence in FFG to address future problems

 Turnip Jedi wrote:
I think its more we've more or less reached the limits of the design space and are just flailing about in gimmick mechanics and really obscure ships, which we knew was going to happen eventually from the outset

Maybe the J5K was an honest mistake, but given the bodged attempts at fixes culminating in more or less invalidating the entire ship, when a simple 5-7ish point increase would have addressed the majority of issues, doesn't really inspire confidence in FFG to address future problems

Its still a good ship. why do you think the FAQ has invalidated it?

Dengar is still tier-1, just not stupidly broken in every way.

 Turnip Jedi wrote:
invalidating the entire ship

The Jumpmaster is still a good ship, how does the FAQ invalidate it? If it came out like this, it would be seen as a solid ship, it's been dropped from busted to good.

It's a 2 die gun, that's why people won't touch it now, as P.One on anyone but Dengar is WAAAAAAAY over-costed.

It's still not a bad ship, but losing the astromech was BS.

Agreed on that score, tittle should have given the astro back. I am happy where the PO has come out its bloody silly that it took three rounds of fixes and a lot less slots when a price rise would have done the trick first time round.

I also really don't understand why people are complaining about FFG hard nerfing stuff, it needed it. Would you have preferred to keep playing the same broken stuff until a hypothetical mkii x-wing came out? I also don't see how FFG have reached the end of the design space there are still tons of ships in the old EU as well as a stream of new films and TV series coming out that are increasing the pool of ships. I don't doubt for a second that we will see them come to the game, whether they are worth brining in is a whole different line of argument though... But I do agree that the increasing number of conditions/gimmicks is annoying both for table/card clutter and to try and keep track of.

ingtaer wrote:
Agreed on that score, tittle should have given the astro back.

It really shouldn't have. Unhinged astromech was ridiculous, especially combined with the K4 droid.

I also don't see how FFG have reached the end of the design space there are still tons of ships in the old EU as well as a stream of new films and TV series coming out that are increasing the pool of ships.

It's not about the fluff space (which is still limited, most of the remaining EU ships are just plain bad), it's about design space from a mechanics point of view. There's a limited supply of good ideas available before you start getting into excessively complicated or awkward mechanics, and X-Wing quickly burned through all of the obvious ones like basic stat line variants or maneuver dials. So yeah, FFG can keep adding in ships indefinitely without running out of fluff, but how many of them are going to be balanced and interesting concepts mechanics-wise that deserve to be included vs. FFG being forced to come up with a special new mechanic to justify the existence of the next wave and keep milking the cash cow?

Unhinged and K4 wasn't that bad at all.

As much as you people complain, realize that this meet needed to happen. The game is way better for this nerf. Its going to allow Imperials to actually have a competitive chance, and open up design space for Rebels. Scum still have a lot of competitive choices too, so overall this is a positive thing.

I agree with Templar.

@ templar and all
I agree it needed to happen, however it was over the top. There were easier ways to deal with this problem and i believe it was poorly conceived and executed. it feels like a knee jerk reaction, as if one of the developers has a grudge or something.

 Ineedvc2500 wrote:
@ templar and all
I agree it needed to happen, however it was over the top. There were easier ways to deal with this problem and i believe it was poorly conceived and executed. it feels like a knee jerk reaction, as if one of the developers has a grudge or something.

Maybe, but I don't think so.

The Jumpmaster is still too cheap for its raw stats and dial. 25 points for a large PWT ship that has a crew, EPT(huge), Illicit, and 9 health on agility 2 with that dial is still utterly insane.

The Devs are definitely guilty of some knee jerk reactions, but no in this case. They've nerfed the Jumpmaster 4(?) times. This is finally a nerf that seems to have actually hurt it.

The crazy thing is, the nerf doesn't actually majorly effect the power of the top Pilots. Dengar still operates roughly 90% identically to how he did previously. He just doesn't get the Astromech which is what put him over the top. He can still use the K4 Security droid too, just not while he's doing speed 3 maneuvers. he's still top of the meta, just in a more manageable form.

Scum have clearly been the favored child of the developers for far too long. Frankly this nerf was way nicer than the faction deserved. You got off lightly. Strictly speaking, the Jumpmaster also needed it's dial altered and some point costs altered. Right turns should have been made red. Right bank 2 and 3 should also have been Red. Hard 1 turn should have been made white. All pilots should have been made ~5 points more expensive. Punishing One title should have been changed to "Increase your Primary Weapon value by 1. You may equip Salvaged Astromech upgrade cards as if they were Crew cards".

 Grey Templar wrote:
Scum have clearly been the favored child of the developers for far too long.

I've often wondered if they were the favoured child due to them coming in late into the game and the Devs wanted to make them super competitive right off the bat.

 captain bloody fists wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Scum have clearly been the favored child of the developers for far too long.

I've often wondered if they were the favoured child due to them coming in late into the game and the Devs wanted to make them super competitive right off the bat.

That, or a bit of overcompensation on the fact that the 2 releases for scum prior to Wave VIII were rather sub-par (Scyk, Starviper, and Kirhax being terrible, the Hounds tooth being only ok).

 captain bloody fists wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Scum have clearly been the favored child of the developers for far too long.

I've often wondered if they were the favoured child due to them coming in late into the game and the Devs wanted to make them super competitive right off the bat.

Partially, but I think it has more to do with a misguided idea for the faction. The idea that Scum should have a bunch of unique mechanics and "more character". Which leads to generally more creativity, and thus more powerful mechanics.

In terms of design space, there's a reason every ship in the last year+ has come with a 0 cost title card in box. They're using that because the core rules don't allow for ships themselves to have unique abilities. We definitely need 2.0 but I don't get how it'll happen with the amount of physical stuff to update. I mean, the community wouldn't even tolerate an update to the damage deck.

That's part of the problem with doing a 2.0 version of the game. A lot of people have invested into the current cards, and no one wants to see them invalidated - yet at the same time, FFG can't afford reprinting for free.

The other half of the issue for releasing a 2.0 would be getting everyone's ship updated in a timely manner. If you have ships sitting about that are unusable because there's no update for them, it'll cause all sort of outcry.

Doing the Aces thing was a great idea for them to do rolling updates to the game, but I think they're now stuck in a position that a 2.0 version NEEDs to happen, but it's going to be a painful process and has a good chance of killing interest in the game overall.

 captain bloody fists wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Scum have clearly been the favored child of the developers for far too long.

I've often wondered if they were the favoured child due to them coming in late into the game and the Devs wanted to make them super competitive right off the bat.

Close. There's a particular dev who really loves the scum faction and keeps pushing their power level, while the other factions don't have a similar champion. They're definitely the favored child, just for a different reason.

 Stormonu wrote:
That's part of the problem with doing a 2.0 version of the game. A lot of people have invested into the current cards, and no one wants to see them invalidated - yet at the same time, FFG can't afford reprinting for free.

The other half of the issue for releasing a 2.0 would be getting everyone's ship updated in a timely manner. If you have ships sitting about that are unusable because there's no update for them, it'll cause all sort of outcry.

Doing the Aces thing was a great idea for them to do rolling updates to the game, but I think they're now stuck in a position that a 2.0 version NEEDs to happen, but it's going to be a painful process and has a good chance of killing interest in the game overall.

Main problem is probably because many Xwing players are NOT your typical wargamer. They're just board gamers who got tricked into buying a wargame. So they're not used to "buying new rulesets".

It does bring up the question of how on earth they would do a 2.0 and retain the integrity of the game. Have discussed this with a fair few people and the options seem to be either a hard reboot (which would be about as unpopular as possible) or releasing faction/core expansions that include no ships but copies of all the nerfed/errata cards, new dials for older ships including the newer maneuvers where appropriate and whatever other bits as needed. But I cant really see that happening either...
How would other people go about it if you were in charge?

Also on the actual topic of this thread, what on earth was the Dash FAQ about? I just cant get my head around why that was needed. Is his ability on permanently unless you state otherwise or off? How has this ever become an issue? I don't get it.

The more I think about it the more I feel that the Biggs nerf, while bad on paper, is not actually that bad. In my experience, it is rare for Biggs to live past that 1st Salvo. He would occasionally soak a turn x+2 shot, but was typically dead by the end of the opening salvo against a good player+list. Once I pay the Astromech tax for R2-D6, it is only 1 more point for selflessness, allowing me to soak that turn x+2 hit. So it really is a mild nerf at best.

ingtaer wrote:
It does bring up the question of how on earth they would do a 2.0 and retain the integrity of the game. Have discussed this with a fair few people and the options seem to be either a hard reboot (which would be about as unpopular as possible) or releasing faction/core expansions that include no ships but copies of all the nerfed/errata cards, new dials for older ships including the newer maneuvers where appropriate and whatever other bits as needed. But I cant really see that happening either...
How would other people go about it if you were in charge?

If we start talking about what I'd put in a 2.0 X-wing game, we'll need another thread... Short answer is faction-based starters, showcasing the 3 main ships and having a bunch of cardboard. Also, bulls-eye arcs+reload actions for everyone.