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Moosatronic Warrior wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

A few Rangers does absolutely nothing. They'll be dead long before the assault phase on turn 1. And that's only if it's a fighting Tyranid army. Tyranids shoot as well as AM too and can ignore pathetic Rangers to just kill your important stuff.

Err... Units with Ranger like deployment rules are mandatory for any army that doesn't have cheap hordes for screens. They stop turn 1 deep strike shenanigans. If you don't use something like that you're not going to compete. I have considered just relying on Serpents as whatever can kill a serpent after deep striking is probably expensive enough to make it an ok exchange.

Yup, Rangers help, particularly Alaitoc ones.

In my last game against Nids, I ran a layered defense and it worked really well. I ran a screen of Wave Serpents with a mix a Wraithguard and Shimmershield Avengers to protect my firebase of Reapers and Prisms. Even a charging Fex will struggle to take down a Serpent in one go. Each time a unit gets charged, it can fall back and still shoot, normally hard enough to make a big dent in whatever charged it. Wraithguard with D-sycthes are fantastic here.

The Nids will crack each layer but each one will cost them to get through and all the time my heavy units are pounding them.

I wrote a battle report here if you want to see how it went.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/744620.page#9699172

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

Alaitoc Rangers are -2 to-hit, so 'Nids and AM are hitting on 6's a lot. They won't make that big of a dent from shooting and thus, they are a roadblock. Plus, Hemlocks.

They're -1 to hit and have a 5+ save against Jormungandr shooting. Being within 12" is a given since they get to move before they shoot and you're recommending putting the Rangers even closer to them than you're own deployment zone.

Also, Biovores and Sporecysts don't care about penalties to hit against the rest of your army. Neither do Zoanthropes/Neurothropes.

I'm not sure you guys have seen a dedicated shooting Tyranid army.

Why would they only have a 5+ vs Jorm?

Spears outdo them against hordes and MEQ (not even counting melee) and are more reliably durable, reapers outdo them against multi-wound units. They'd be fine at 28. 33 is way overkill.

By that logic, everything that is not Reapers or Spears sucks. They are still the best Elite choice, and very versatile, good objective claimers.

Reapers and Spears kill better, Spiders and Spears claim objectives better. Being a better elite choice for the Eldar is not a big victory. Have seen our elites section?

They're over costed and no longer fill a role. They're bad.

I guess, if you are playing high end competitive, you might call them bad. But within the context of the Eldar codex, playing friendly competitive, calling them bad is crazy talk. They are likely the 4th best unit in the codex.

xmbk wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

Alaitoc Rangers are -2 to-hit, so 'Nids and AM are hitting on 6's a lot. They won't make that big of a dent from shooting and thus, they are a roadblock. Plus, Hemlocks.

They're -1 to hit and have a 5+ save against Jormungandr shooting. Being within 12" is a given since they get to move before they shoot and you're recommending putting the Rangers even closer to them than you're own deployment zone.

Also, Biovores and Sporecysts don't care about penalties to hit against the rest of your army. Neither do Zoanthropes/Neurothropes.

I'm not sure you guys have seen a dedicated shooting Tyranid army.

Why would they only have a 5+ vs Jorm?

Jorm warlord trait is all units within 6" of their warlord ignore cover.

Even if Nids manage to kill all the Rangers in the shooting phase, that will happen AFTER the movement phase, meaning any charges the Nid player set up will be very unlikely since those units would be 1" away from where your Rangers were and your Rangers should be over 6" away from your army. With proper placement, no unit should be able to get within 10" of anything but the rangers.

That's the point of using Rangers as screens: they can guarantee units cannot get close enough to you in the MOVEMENT phase.
Unless Nids have some way to cause damage before or during the movement phase, Nids cannot alpha strike Eldar with assault units.

And ignoring cover is nice and all, but those Jorm units will be hitting on 6's (-2 for Rangers and Alaitoc), so even then I don't think they'll kill all the Rangers in 1 go.

Bottom line, Rangers are the best screens Eldar have. They are very useful and anyone saying that they are not may as well be saying Nids auto-win against Eldar.

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 Galef wrote:
Even if Nids manage to kill all the Rangers in the shooting phase, that will happen AFTER the movement phase, meaning any charges the Nid player set up will be very unlikely since those units would be 1" away from where your Rangers were and your Rangers should be over 6" away from your army. With proper placement, no unit should be able to get within 10" of anything but the rangers.

That's the point of using Rangers as screens: they can guarantee units cannot get close enough to you in the MOVEMENT phase.
Unless Nids have some way to cause damage before or during the movement phase, Nids cannot alpha strike Eldar with assault units.

And ignoring cover is nice and all, but those Jorm units will be hitting on 6's (-2 for Rangers and Alaitoc), so even then I don't think they'll kill all the Rangers in 1 go.

Bottom line, Rangers are the best screens Eldar have. They are very useful and anyone saying that they are not may as well be saying Nids auto-win against Eldar.

-

Rangers definitely are the go-to screen unit for Eldar and are good because they fill a Troop slot.

However, it seems like you are unaware of what the Swarmlord does. He lets a single Tyranid unit move again (including Advancing) in the Shooting phase. A combination I've seen is Kraken + Jormungandr in different detachments, Jormungandr Warlord supporting Devourer Termagants to clear chaff, then Kraken Genestealers being driven forward by the Swarmlord and using the doubled-Advance-roll Stratagem to get right to the back of the enemy deployment zone. Against that particular list, a Ranger screen won't stop the Stealer bomb but it will at least cut off a second unit from making it through (i.e. Hormagaunts using that stratagem as often the Genestealer blob doesn't even need it) so it's still worth it. Tyranids can very easily clear out Alaitoc Rangers even in an alpha-strike list, all they have to do is put some of their units in a Jormungandr detachment, drop them within 12" to deny your Alaitoc rule (very easy for Tyranids) and go to town.

Just something to keep in mind. If it's not a Swarmlord list and provided you don't leave any space at all, you're fine. Even a tiny gap though, and Kraken Genestealers can very easily go right through without the Swarmlord.

xmbk wrote:
They are likely the 4th best unit in the codex.

They are not in the Codex at all, actually.

I only harp on the difference because unlike everything in the actual Codex, these guys require you to cough up cash for yet another book and then special mail order them from another country (if outside the UK).

Seeing as other Codex units can fill their roll, be purchased at any local GW/FLGS and don't require a second book to be purchased, its good information for new comers to Eldar reading this forum to know.

Saves them time and money in this particular case.

Nid player here.
Just wanted to point out that while rangers are indeed a great way to block turn 1 stealers, you could instead be making a favor to hormagaunt rushes.
Using the kraken stratagem they will easily charge your rangers turn 1, and if they get to slay them, they will use another combination of stratagems wich let them engage (but not attack) targets up to 26" away. If you do that, make sure that the targets that they can reach can fly.

It's a nasty trick that sealed many games against factions without fly. Eldar can counterplay it, so deploy accordingly.

Caederes wrote:

 Galef wrote:
Even if Nids manage to kill all the Rangers in the shooting phase, that will happen AFTER the movement phase, meaning any charges the Nid player set up will be very unlikely since those units would be 1" away from where your Rangers were and your Rangers should be over 6" away from your army. With proper placement, no unit should be able to get within 10" of anything but the rangers.

That's the point of using Rangers as screens: they can guarantee units cannot get close enough to you in the MOVEMENT phase.
Unless Nids have some way to cause damage before or during the movement phase, Nids cannot alpha strike Eldar with assault units.

And ignoring cover is nice and all, but those Jorm units will be hitting on 6's (-2 for Rangers and Alaitoc), so even then I don't think they'll kill all the Rangers in 1 go.

Bottom line, Rangers are the best screens Eldar have. They are very useful and anyone saying that they are not may as well be saying Nids auto-win against Eldar.

-

Rangers definitely are the go-to screen unit for Eldar and are good because they fill a Troop slot.

However, it seems like you are unaware of what the Swarmlord does. He lets a single Tyranid unit move again (including Advancing) in the Shooting phase. A combination I've seen is Kraken + Jormungandr in different detachments, Jormungandr Warlord supporting Devourer Termagants to clear chaff, then Kraken Genestealers being driven forward by the Swarmlord and using the doubled-Advance-roll Stratagem to get right to the back of the enemy deployment zone. Against that particular list, a Ranger screen won't stop the Stealer bomb but it will at least cut off a second unit from making it through (i.e. Hormagaunts using that stratagem as often the Genestealer blob doesn't even need it) so it's still worth it. Tyranids can very easily clear out Alaitoc Rangers even in an alpha-strike list, all they have to do is put some of their units in a Jormungandr detachment, drop them within 12" to deny your Alaitoc rule (very easy for Tyranids) and go to town.

Just something to keep in mind. If it's not a Swarmlord list and provided you don't leave any space at all, you're fine. Even a tiny gap though, and Kraken Genestealers can very easily go right through without the Swarmlord.

Yeah, Kraken Stealers with Swarmy are looking at a potential charge range of 41," and an average charge range of 33". That's pretty vicious, and Rangers can't really help at all against that.

A Ranger screen spread in a 2” coherency line takes up a fair amount of space. Sure, they will likely suffer casualties from psychic and shooting, but, played correctly, you can easily add several inches onto distance the units that want to break through have to move.

I also think a second line of units with fly is super helpful, as, even if they do manage to break through and overcharge, you are able to reliably retaliate.

Nids with Swarmlord can force one unit through screens on T1 and there's not a lot you can do about it. If it's Genestealers then something's going to get wrecked. You still want rangers to prevent more than one unit getting in though. Swarmlord is also not such an obvious choice for nids anymore, he's still great but the rest of the dex got so good he has a lot more competition.

Rangers also help with getting your own deepstrikers into range on T1. I had a game against guard where we both had shooty deepstrikers (Guardians and special weapon guard) and both had scout units (Rangers and Sentinels). We both wanted to scout to prevent the opponents deep strikers, but also scout to prevent the opponents scouts preventing our own deep strikers lol. It's an interesting mini game that would have been better if the rules were clear.

Anyone know what order the different scout/infiltrate moves should be resolved?

Scout moves are a rolloff.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Spoletta wrote:
Nid player here.
Just wanted to point out that while rangers are indeed a great way to block turn 1 stealers, you could instead be making a favor to hormagaunt rushes.
Using the kraken stratagem they will easily charge your rangers turn 1, and if they get to slay them, they will use another combination of stratagems wich let them engage (but not attack) targets up to 26" away. If you do that, make sure that the targets that they can reach can fly.

It's a nasty trick that sealed many games against factions without fly. Eldar can counterplay it, so deploy accordingly.

How are they engaging? Overrun specifically does not let them get within 1".

xmbk wrote:

How are they engaging? Overrun specifically does not let them get within 1".

They'd then use the 3 CP stratagem to fight again, which would let them pile in and consolidate.

xmbk wrote:
Scout moves are a rolloff.

Can you give a source? We found an FAQ saying to roll off for units with similar abilities but there were a couple of issues:

- The Rangers deployment and the sentinels pre-game move are not the same, so I wasn't sure If the FAQ was applicable.

- The way it was worded suggested that the winner of the roll off got to choose the order all such abilities were resolved, meaning my opponent who won the dice off chose to move 4 Sentinels before I deployed any rangers. The the FAQ seemed like it was intended for when each player only has one such unit.

It seems obvious that you should dice off and then alternate, but I couldn't find the rules for it.

Dionysodorus wrote:

xmbk wrote:

How are they engaging? Overrun specifically does not let them get within 1".

They'd then use the 3 CP stratagem to fight again, which would let them pile in and consolidate.

But they'd only be able to target the new unit if they also declared a charge against it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Moosatronic Warrior wrote:

xmbk wrote:
Scout moves are a rolloff.

Can you give a source? We found an FAQ saying to roll off for units with similar abilities but there were a couple of issues:

- The Rangers deployment and the sentinels pre-game move are not the same, so I wasn't sure If the FAQ was applicable.

- The way it was worded suggested that the winner of the roll off got to choose the order all such abilities were resolved, meaning my opponent who won the dice off chose to move 4 Sentinels before I deployed any rangers. The the FAQ seemed like it was intended for when each player only has one such unit.

It seems obvious that you should dice off and then alternate, but I couldn't find the rules for it.

I think it is stated somewhere that –

“If both players have units that are setup in this way (or similar ways), players roll off to determine who “activates” the first unit. After that they then alternate unit activation.”

Now, I’m 100% sure the wording is wrong, but, I believe the intent is that, as both forms of “movement” are done in the same “phase” (after battle begins but before 1st turn starts) then the players alternate units.

Kdash wrote:

Dionysodorus wrote:

xmbk wrote:

How are they engaging? Overrun specifically does not let them get within 1".

They'd then use the 3 CP stratagem to fight again, which would let them pile in and consolidate.

But they'd only be able to target the new unit if they also declared a charge against it.

Sure, but the purpose of the hormagaunts is just to tie things up. The idea is that you end up using the screening unit to slingshot your gaunts -- instead of your original 12" move, you get the extra charge distance into the screening unit, then another 12+d6" with Overrun, then another 6" pile in and 6" consolidate. Even enemy units way in the back won't be shooting next turn unless they have Fly or are tightly wrapped.

Kdash wrote:


I think it is stated somewhere that –

“If both players have units that are setup in this way (or similar ways), players roll off to determine who “activates” the first unit. After that they then alternate unit activation.”

Now, I’m 100% sure the wording is wrong, but, I believe the intent is that, as both forms of “movement” are done in the same “phase” (after battle begins but before 1st turn starts) then the players alternate units.

I thought I'd read that somewhere too. Some units (like kroot) have it written on the dataslate with the rule.

Good to know about Swarmlord and 'Stealer rush. I figured Nids would have something like it, I've just always managed to find ways around these kinds of tactics in the past.
Probably Rangers, then Hemlocks, then the rest of my army? Both screens are -2 to hit, so all the dakka to "clear the chaff" isn't going to be nearly as effective as the opponent hopes for. And the Hemlocks cannot be charged by 'Stealers or Hormagaunts and has a nasty overwatch against flying Tyrants.

Will have to playtest it obviously, but tactically, I am sure there is a way to prevent turn 1 charges that you do not want happening.

-

Units being tied up in combat isn’t really eldar’s concern. Most of the competitive units eldar take have fly (wave serpents, shining spears, all their tanks, swooping hawks, warp spiders) or can fallback and shoot still (wraithguard).
The obvious exception is dark reapers, which are the only real legitimate concern. If it’s turn one they will be in a wave serpent, and otherwise there is always the strat for them to fall back and shoot.
The termi rush is a valid tactic, but not really a worry for eldar.
Those genestealers moving across the board however...

Dionysodorus wrote:

xmbk wrote:

How are they engaging? Overrun specifically does not let them get within 1".

They'd then use the 3 CP stratagem to fight again, which would let them pile in and consolidate.

That's pretty shaky. I hope it survives the faq, but we'll see. Reminds me of the good old days of sweeping advance.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Moosatronic Warrior wrote:

xmbk wrote:
Scout moves are a rolloff.

Can you give a source? We found an FAQ saying to roll off for units with similar abilities but there were a couple of issues:

- The Rangers deployment and the sentinels pre-game move are not the same, so I wasn't sure If the FAQ was applicable.

- The way it was worded suggested that the winner of the roll off got to choose the order all such abilities were resolved, meaning my opponent who won the dice off chose to move 4 Sentinels before I deployed any rangers. The the FAQ seemed like it was intended for when each player only has one such unit.

It seems obvious that you should dice off and then alternate, but I couldn't find the rules for it.

I can't find it now. They really need to get all rules addendum in one place.

so someone pointed out something in the first faq.

After the FAQ was answered there was a commentary that said remember a transport cannot both embark and disembark units in the same turn.

We know there is a rule that a unit cannot do both on the same turn. That is simple.

So is that commentary a confused notion to make it clear to someone about the point above>>>>

OR is it as simple as a vehicle cannot do both.

The reason is .....Lets say I start a unit(s) in a wave serpent. DISEMBARK then move the WS across the board and then EMBARK some other unit?

So is that illegal or since it is Disembark AND Embark in the same turn and not Embark AND Disembark as written in the FAQ commentary ....it legal?

thanks

A unit cannot embark or disembark a transport in the same turn. Doesn’t say anything about a transport being disembarked from and embarked from in the same turn.

Thats how I read it anyway.

So you can’t move dark reapers out of a wave serpent and then fire and fade back in that turn for example. But you can disembark with the reapers and then have a guardian unit jump in, either before or after wave serpent move.

An ideal way to make this work would be as follows:
10 Reapers start in the Serpent
a unit of Fire Dragons is in Webway reinforcement
Spiritseer with Faolchu's wing or Warlock Skyrunner has Quicken.

Turn 1 the Reapers disembark and the Serpent moves as close to the Dragon's target as possible. Spiritseer or Warlock moves just behind
Dragons drop in and get Quicken to be on Melta range. Dragons kill their target, then Fire & Fade into the Serpent

-

Wyldcarde wrote:
A unit cannot embark or disembark a transport in the same turn. Doesn’t say anything about a transport being disembarked from and embarked from in the same turn.

Thats how I read it anyway.

So you can’t move dark reapers out of a wave serpent and then fire and fade back in that turn for example. But you can disembark with the reapers and then have a guardian unit jump in, either before or after wave serpent move.

https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/warhammer_40000_stepping_into_a_new_edition_en.pdf

Q: Can a unit that Advances or Falls Back embark
within a transport? What about if the transport has
moved before – can a unit still embark inside?

A: Yes, yes and yes (remember though that a transport
cannot both embark and disembark units in the
same turn).

FAQ made it clear that the transport cannot embark and disembark units in the same turn either.

 Marius Xerxes wrote:


https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/warhammer_40000_stepping_into_a_new_edition_en.pdf

Q: Can a unit that Advances or Falls Back embark
within a transport? What about if the transport has
moved before – can a unit still embark inside?

A: Yes, yes and yes (remember though that a transport
cannot both embark and disembark units in the
same turn).

FAQ made it clear that the transport cannot embark and disembark units in the same turn either.

Yes...that is the FAQ I was noting. It COULD BE as straight as you stated or It does seem the response to the main rule that one cannot jump some tac squad in a transport and then jump out....which breaks the main transport rule. So was that a clarification or a broad restriction?.

One could argue that that statement said 'embark and disembark' which COULD be different from 'disembark and embark' . That is completely different. Its like my swooping hawks jump out of tactical reserves and land from the skies. That is different from leaving the battlefield and flying into the skies. I cannot do both in the same round.

My thoughts are that you can disembark and then embark a different unit later RAW because it specifically stated you could NOT do the opposite but did not address the reverse. There is implication of the FAQ context that it was stating for the record a single unit cannot do both in the same turn.

Outdated FAQ though, judging by soulburst questions which became irrelevant with Ynnari change (like charging in enemy turn with soulburst).

 Latro_ wrote:
after looking into it seems you could do the above with RAW

the FAQ clarification is reminding you of something that is also actually wrong the rule book specifically says a'a unit' cannot embark and disembark on the same turn not unit[[s]]

cant see anything wrong with rhino with a spare seat have a captain jump in and then the 8 marines jump out

BaconCatBug wrote:The FAQ is simply wrong. It's meant to talk about the unit, not the transport itself. So it all comes down to how you interpret the text in parenthesis, either as errata grade special snowflake FAQ or as poorly worded incorrect reminder text. Discuss it pre game.

So far the concensus is that we can DISEMBARK and then EMBARK other units from the Rules forum