Author |
Message |
 |
|
 |
Advert
|
Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
- No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
- Times and dates in your local timezone.
- Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
- Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
- Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now. |
|
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/10/31 01:22:10
Subject: 7+ to hit?
|
 |
Pestilent Plague Marine with Blight Grenade
|
Is it possible to modify an enemies hit roll to a 7+..or worse? Just thinking about Eldar Alaitoc Rangers vs 5+ to hit enemies
Thanks in advance.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/10/31 01:24:09
Subject: 7+ to hit?
|
 |
Dakka Veteran
|
Yes; in which case the opponent simply is unable to hit you (as the highest that can be rolled is a 6).
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/10/31 01:33:56
Subject: 7+ to hit?
|
 |
Swift Swooping Hawk
|
You don't modify their ballistic skill, you modify the to hit roll. With a -1 modifier to hit, a roll of 5 becomes a 4, with -2, it becomes a 3.
You can still hit, provided you get some offsetting bonuses.
|
Craftworld Sciatháin 4180 pts |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/10/31 12:05:45
Subject: 7+ to hit?
|
 |
Lethal Lhamean
Birmingham
|
Cream Tea wrote:You don't modify their ballistic skill, you modify the to hit roll. With a -1 modifier to hit, a roll of 5 becomes a 4, with -2, it becomes a 3.
You can still hit, provided you get some offsetting bonuses.
I think you'll find that with a -1 modifier a to hit roll of a 5 becomes a 6, a -2 would make it a 7.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/10/31 12:16:05
Subject: 7+ to hit?
|
 |
Longtime Dakkanaut
|
Imateria wrote: Cream Tea wrote:You don't modify their ballistic skill, you modify the to hit roll. With a -1 modifier to hit, a roll of 5 becomes a 4, with -2, it becomes a 3.
You can still hit, provided you get some offsetting bonuses.
I think you'll find that with a -1 modifier a to hit roll of a 5 becomes a 6, a -2 would make it a 7.
This is not how subtraction works. The poster is correct: negative hit modifiers modify the result of the hit roll by making it lower. Models have a BS value that requires them to roll at least some result in order to hit, such as BS3+ which hits with a roll of 3 or more. With a -1 modifier, a natural roll of 3 doesn't hit, because it is modified to 2. A natural roll of 4 would be necessary. Often it is convenient to lump everything into a single number, so we might say that a BS3+ model firing at -1 needs a 4+ to hit, but the distinction can matter in some common cases and it's important to recognize that (to my knowledge) you never actually find yourself needing the result of a hit roll to be a 7 in order to hit. Rules that trigger on rolls of a 6+ can't trigger with a net negative modifier, because the result of the roll can never be 6+. Plasma can't get hot with a net positive modifier. You often need to consider the model's unmodified BS to determine whether you're entitled to re-roll, but then whether or not it actually hits is determined by the modified result.
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/31 12:17:31
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/10/31 12:20:09
Subject: 7+ to hit?
|
 |
Rough Rider with Boomstick
|
Imateria wrote: Cream Tea wrote:You don't modify their ballistic skill, you modify the to hit roll. With a -1 modifier to hit, a roll of 5 becomes a 4, with -2, it becomes a 3.
You can still hit, provided you get some offsetting bonuses.
I think you'll find that with a -1 modifier a to hit roll of a 5 becomes a 6, a -2 would make it a 7.
He's talking about the "effective result", not the "effective target".
If you roll a result of 5 and take a -1 on it, the effective result is 4. If you needed a 5+ to hit, that's a miss.
This does create an effective target number of 6+ though, because you'd need a roll of 6 to get an effective result of 5 after the -1.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/10/31 12:34:10
Subject: 7+ to hit?
|
 |
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord
|
On a tangent, if I remember correctly, this can also screw up rerolls, since they function before modifiers come in.
|
Gwar! wrote:Huh, I had no idea Graham McNeillm Dav Torpe and Pete Haines posted on Dakka. Hi Graham McNeillm Dav Torpe and Pete Haines!!!!!!!!!!!!! Can I have an Autograph!
Kanluwen wrote:
Hell, I'm not that bothered by the Stormraven. Why? Because, as it stands right now, it's "limited use".When it's shoehorned in to the Codex: Space Marines, then yeah. I'll be irked.
When I'm editing alot, you know I have a gakload of homework to (not) do. |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/10/31 14:57:43
Subject: 7+ to hit?
|
 |
Pestilent Plague Marine with Blight Grenade
|
Cream Tea wrote:You don't modify their ballistic skill, you modify the to hit roll. With a -1 modifier to hit, a roll of 5 becomes a 4, with -2, it becomes a 3.
You can still hit, provided you get some offsetting bonuses.
Not what I was talking about man but thanks for trying.
Everyone else thank you for your input. I wasn't sure if there was like a "Models always hit on 6's" type of a rule that I couldn't find, as I've that's the way overwtch works which I find strange....
|
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/10/31 15:00:52
Subject: 7+ to hit?
|
 |
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord
|
The "6 is always a success" and "1 is always a failure" use to be a rule in older editions that seems to have been phased out. It use to be in the section describing what a D6 is.
|
Gwar! wrote:Huh, I had no idea Graham McNeillm Dav Torpe and Pete Haines posted on Dakka. Hi Graham McNeillm Dav Torpe and Pete Haines!!!!!!!!!!!!! Can I have an Autograph!
Kanluwen wrote:
Hell, I'm not that bothered by the Stormraven. Why? Because, as it stands right now, it's "limited use".When it's shoehorned in to the Codex: Space Marines, then yeah. I'll be irked.
When I'm editing alot, you know I have a gakload of homework to (not) do. |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/10/31 15:09:00
Subject: 7+ to hit?
|
 |
Fresh-Faced New User
|
Is a natural 1 always a failure?
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/10/31 15:10:00
Subject: 7+ to hit?
|
 |
Norn Queen
|
Yes, you could have a +9 to hit and a 1 will still miss.
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/31 15:10:15
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/10/31 15:14:38
Subject: 7+ to hit?
|
 |
[DCM]
Moustache-twirling Princeps
Gone-to-ground in the craters of Coventry
|
Which is why the "reroll 1s" abilities are so useful.
|
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 0083/05/01 15:45:30
Subject: 7+ to hit?
|
 |
Death-Dealing Devastator
|
Yes, as a result of the Tyranid Hive Fleet adaptations combined with the spores thing that the Screamer-Killer Carnifex can get would mean that orks could not hit the Screamer Killer with shooting attacks.
Might be a problem with regard to balance, but what do I know? I just play the game.
|
Squats 2020! |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/10/31 17:19:29
Subject: 7+ to hit?
|
 |
Witch Hunter in the Shadows
Aachen
|
dadx6 wrote:Yes, as a result of the Tyranid Hive Fleet adaptations combined with the spores thing that the Screamer-Killer Carnifex can get would mean that orks could not hit the Screamer Killer with shooting attacks.
Might be a problem with regard to balance, but what do I know? I just play the game.
There's no Hive Fleet adaption trait that grants a penalty to being shot. The only thing close to it is being in cover unless you advance or charge, and that's a +1 to your saving throw. Stick to just playing the game ;-)
But to be fair - OUTSIDE of tyranids there're multiple ways to get a -2 penalty. Raven Guard supersonic flyers, for example, from the first codex released in 8th ...
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/31 17:21:07
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/10/31 17:27:49
Subject: 7+ to hit?
|
 |
Death-Dealing Devastator
|
Huh. I guess I should just stop posting. I thought there was a hive fleet adaptation that worked like the Raven Guard thing.
I stand corrected. Thank you for the information.
|
Squats 2020! |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/10/31 17:43:06
Subject: 7+ to hit?
|
 |
Deathwing Terminator with Assault Cannon
|
nekooni wrote:dadx6 wrote:Yes, as a result of the Tyranid Hive Fleet adaptations combined with the spores thing that the Screamer-Killer Carnifex can get would mean that orks could not hit the Screamer Killer with shooting attacks.
Might be a problem with regard to balance, but what do I know? I just play the game.
There's no Hive Fleet adaption trait that grants a penalty to being shot. The only thing close to it is being in cover unless you advance or charge, and that's a +1 to your saving throw. Stick to just playing the game ;-)
But to be fair - OUTSIDE of tyranids there're multiple ways to get a -2 penalty. Raven Guard supersonic flyers, for example, from the first codex released in 8th ...
How would it get to -2?
The Raven Guard chapter tactic only works on <Infantry>, <Biker> and <Dreadnought> units.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/10/31 19:01:28
Subject: 7+ to hit?
|
 |
Norn Queen
|
Asmodai wrote:How would it get to -2? The Raven Guard chapter tactic only works on <Infantry>, <Biker> and <Dreadnought> units.
Because of the Illusory truth effect. When the first info came out, we didn't know it was limited, so people thought it applied to Flyers too and started whining. Even after people found out it wasn't true, the myth has persisted. Funnily enough it DOES apply to Eldar flyers. I feel this is a good piece of evidence that the SM codex was intentionally toned down and made underpowered, since Marines will sell regardless of rules, but by giving non-Marines better rules, they can spur sales of them in addition to Marines. Due to the lack of a 6 always hits rules, Eldar can make themselves unhittable to Orks and the like quite easily.
|
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/10/31 19:03:50
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/10/31 19:16:53
Subject: 7+ to hit?
|
 |
Regular Dakkanaut
|
Yep, GW screwed this one up. Seeing as orcs will things to work, and rely purely on dakka dakka because aiming is for those with teeth.
A +/- of 2 or more is broken in a d6 environment. Without the 1 is always a failure and 6 is always a success to book end the modifiers.
The fact that index nids and orcs are completely screwed is purely a failure on GW's behalf of bad game design and a major failure in play testing.
As someone that uses hemlocks due to the fact harlequins lack anti air and heck i will take an extra -1 to hit or an extra hit on LD. Orcs and nids are getting throttled in an entire phase of the game right now. I had to change the craftworld i was using turn 2 just so we could have a game.
|
In war there is poetry; in death, release. |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/10/31 21:28:04
Subject: 7+ to hit?
|
 |
Pestilent Plague Marine with Blight Grenade
|
clownshoes wrote:Yep, GW screwed this one up. Seeing as orcs will things to work, and rely purely on dakka dakka because aiming is for those with teeth.
A +/- of 2 or more is broken in a d6 environment. Without the 1 is always a failure and 6 is always a success to book end the modifiers.
The fact that index nids and orcs are completely screwed is purely a failure on GW's behalf of bad game design and a major failure in play testing.
As someone that uses hemlocks due to the fact harlequins lack anti air and heck i will take an extra -1 to hit or an extra hit on LD. Orcs and nids are getting throttled in an entire phase of the game right now. I had to change the craftworld i was using turn 2 just so we could have a game.
I wouldn't call it a failure since neither have a codex out yet. Back when they play tested it, there weren't as many -1/+1 modifiers that are now seen since armies are having codices released.
Saying GW failed with a certain army rules when there codex hasn't even been released is stupid sorry....
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/10/31 22:08:19
Subject: 7+ to hit?
|
 |
Preacher of the Emperor
Hanford, CA, AKA The Eye of Terror
|
I really REALLY hope they go the AoS route in their newest Generals book and make a 6 a guaranteed hit. Right now there is going to be some armies like Orks, Tau and some guard (yeah yeah I know, tears) who will have zero chance to hit something no matter what they do, and that seems to be terrible game design to completely make a unit un targetable via stacking buffs outside of a special ability that says otherwise (i.e. characters, and there are plenty of ways around that). It should be 1s fail, 6s always hit, JUST LIKE WOUNDS. Novel concept, right?
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/31 22:08:32
17,000 points (Valhallan)
10,000 points
6,000 points (Order of Our Martyred Lady)
Proud Countess of House Terryn hosting 7 Knights, 2 Dominus Knights, and 8 Armigers
Stormcast Eternals: 7,000 points
"Remember, Orks are weak and cowardly, they are easily beat in close combat and their tusks, while menacing, can easily be pulled out with a sharp tug"
-Imperial Guard Uplifting Primer |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/10/31 22:10:48
Subject: Re:7+ to hit?
|
 |
Nasty Nob
|
I had to change the craftworld i was using turn 2 just so we could have a game.
Wow that must have been some fast repainting :-p
My friends and I take a common sense approach and just use the good old '6 is always a success' rule to avoid this silliness, but you could also use the mechanic that the LOTR game had where to succeed at a 7+ you needed to role a 6 followed by a 4+ (or something like that, I didn't play the game all that often when it first came out and now it seems to have disappeared).
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/11/01 01:11:03
Subject: 7+ to hit?
|
 |
Scarred Ultramarine Tyrannic War Veteran
McCragge
|
7+ is the new invisible.
|
Bow down to Guilliman for he is our new God Emperor!
Martel - "Custodes are terrible in 8th. Good luck with them. They take all the problems of marines and multiply them."
"Lol, classic martel. 'I know it was strong enough to podium in the biggest tournament in the world but I refuse to acknowledge space marines are good because I can't win with them and it can't possibly be ME'."
DakkaDakka is really the place where you need anti-tank guns to kill basic dudes, because anything less isn't durable enough. |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/11/01 09:27:11
Subject: Re:7+ to hit?
|
 |
[DCM]
Moustache-twirling Princeps
Gone-to-ground in the craters of Coventry
|
Kroem wrote:but you could also use the mechanic that the LOTR game had where to succeed at a 7+ you needed to role a 6 followed by a 4+
That was in 40k too, in 5th at least, and probably 6th and 7th.
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/11/01 09:27:21
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/11/01 09:34:07
Subject: 7+ to hit?
|
 |
Sneaky Lictor
|
Question on the topic of re-rolls.
If you have a -1 to hit, and you re-rolls 1s.
Do you get to re-roll both dice roll of 1 and 2s, and the 2 becomes a 1 and the 1 stays a one as you can't make the dice result lower then that?
|
A Song of Ice and Fire - House Greyjoy.
AoS - Maggotkin of Nurgle, Ossiarch Bonereapers & Seraphon.
Bloodbowl - Lizardmen.
Horus Heresy - World Eaters.
Marvel Crisis Protocol - Avengers, Brotherhood of Mutants & Cabal.
Middle Earth Strategy Battle game - Rivendell & The Easterlings.
The Ninth Age - Beast Herds & Highborn Elves.
Warhammer 40k - Tyranids.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/11/01 09:43:16
Subject: 7+ to hit?
|
 |
Locked in the Tower of Amareo
|
No you reroll just 1's. Modifiers come after reroll.
Similarly if you reroll all misses and hit on 4+ with -1 to hit you reroll 1, 2 and 3 but not 4 that just miss.
|
2024 painted/bought: 109/109 |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/11/01 09:44:32
Subject: 7+ to hit?
|
 |
Sneaky Lictor
|
tneva82 wrote:No you reroll just 1's. Modifiers come after reroll.
Similarly if you reroll all misses and hit on 4+ with -1 to hit you reroll 1, 2 and 3 but not 4 that just miss.
That makes total sense. I'm just being dense, thanks dude.
|
A Song of Ice and Fire - House Greyjoy.
AoS - Maggotkin of Nurgle, Ossiarch Bonereapers & Seraphon.
Bloodbowl - Lizardmen.
Horus Heresy - World Eaters.
Marvel Crisis Protocol - Avengers, Brotherhood of Mutants & Cabal.
Middle Earth Strategy Battle game - Rivendell & The Easterlings.
The Ninth Age - Beast Herds & Highborn Elves.
Warhammer 40k - Tyranids.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/11/01 09:49:54
Subject: 7+ to hit?
|
 |
Locked in the Tower of Amareo
|
Well I don't see it making sense but GW wanted to go for this way.
|
2024 painted/bought: 109/109 |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/11/01 10:25:37
Subject: 7+ to hit?
|
 |
Norn Queen
|
Of course the ideal solution would be to move to a D10 or D12 system.
I can dream, right?
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/11/01 11:10:26
Subject: 7+ to hit?
|
 |
Pious Palatine
|
BaconCatBug wrote:Of course the ideal solution would be to move to a D10 or D12 system.
I can dream, right?
Yeah, you're free to dream terrible ideas all you want.
|
|
|
 |
 |
|