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EDIT: In an effort not to clog the board with my posts, I added my latest all-comers style list as a reply on this post. Scroll on down!

List One - Anti-armor emphasis for that IG meta



List Two - Prism-Free


All of these are dedicated Alaitoc - though I have been trying to find a good use for Wraithguard and am leaning towards tossing in Yvraine and going for a small Ynnari detachment with Quicken, but that is for another thread!

Thoughts on these lists? Things I missed? I am fresh to Eldar, so I am open to advice!

I think every dark reaper squad should get a safety wave serpent otherwise they die if you don't go first. That said it isn't impossible to hide you're dark reaper squads in out of line of sight, but i don't think you can always find place to hide 3 squads in this way. SO it's always nice to have the safety serpent.

Both lists feel low on anti-infantry shooting. The largest conscript spam might be history, but you still should expect to face 60+ Guardsman/Poxwalkers/Brimstones/etc.. especially if you're going for competitive.

You have a lot of high-strength fire power, but when it comes to clearing those large board control units, those lists will get swamped.

mmimzie wrote:I think every dark reaper squad should get a safety wave serpent otherwise they die if you don't go first. That said it isn't impossible to hide you're dark reaper squads in out of line of sight, but i don't think you can always find place to hide 3 squads in this way. SO it's always nice to have the safety serpent.

That just isn't point viable. At ~170 per WS, it would undercut most of my other core units just to protect rather cheap DR squads.

Wonderwolf wrote:Both lists feel low on anti-infantry shooting. The largest conscript spam might be history, but you still should expect to face 60+ Guardsman/Poxwalkers/Brimstones/etc.. especially if you're going for competitive.

You have a lot of high-strength fire power, but when it comes to clearing those large board control units, those lists will get swamped.

What are some good options for clearing out infantry? I do feel like my meta is pretty tank heavy, but I need to be ready for more all-comer events.

I could drop the DR (ugly models anyhow) and opt for something a bit more versatile like a Saim-Hann Outrider:

Saim-Hann Outrider

HQ:
Warlock Skyrunner
Conceal/Reveal
[75]

Fast Attack:
(6) Windriders
Scatter Lasers
[168]

(6) Windriders
Scatter Lasers
[168]

(6) Windriders
Scatter Lasers
[168]

[617]

I'd have to dig up 25pt points to fit it in, but that gives me 72 S6 shots at BS 3+. Against a mob of 30 Boyz, that should usually wipe the squad in a single round comfortably.

A WS comes around 140 points. Also you could reduce two of the Dark Reaper squads to 3 man and but all together in one WS (for the first round, this also gives you 9 anti-horde shoots). Furthermore you could change the AML from the Reapers for Tempest launcher (2d6 shoots with mediocore strength, AP and low damage).

Eldarion wrote:
A WS comes around 140 points. Also you could reduce two of the Dark Reaper squads to 3 man and but all together in one WS (for the first round, this also gives you 9 anti-horde shoots). Furthermore you could change the AML from the Reapers for Tempest launcher (2d6 shoots with mediocore strength, AP and low damage).

Alaitoc Spearhead 1CP
HQ:
Maugan Ra
[140]

Heavy:
(3) Dark Reapers
Tempest Launcher
[86]

(3) Dark Reapers
Tempest Launcher
[86]

(3) Dark Reapers
Tempest Launcher
[86]

Dedicated Transports:
Wave Serpent
Twin Shuriken Cannon, Shuriken Cannon
Spirit Stones
[144]

[542]

It has less firepower from the Reapers, but adds the Serpent and gives the Reapers insurance. Definitely an option and its a bit cheaper in points than the other option. Not 100% sure on the Tempest Launchers.

I keep looking at a couple of vibro cannons as substitutes to dark reapers. At 60 points a pop, 2 of them can, on average out damage a unit of 5 dark reapers vs tanks/monsters (if I remember correctly). However, it does mean you’d have even less anti infantry.

However, don’t underestimate the amount anti infantry the shadow spectres and hemlocks will be able to put out along with Maugan-Ra. My only concern is that you could find yourself not having your Spiritseer in range of the Spectres every so often to Quicken them so you might have to rely on the other profile on the weapon initially.

Remember – you only need to be able to kill about 18 out of 30 boyz to make the unit run (if they are alone, otherwise you have to kill 18 in each unit). For Guard, if you can kill a unit of 10 you’ll likely be fine going forward. Brimstones and potentially nids could be where the new problem is at.

Kdash wrote:
I keep looking at a couple of vibro cannons as substitutes to dark reapers. At 60 points a pop, 2 of them can, on average out damage a unit of 5 dark reapers vs tanks/monsters (if I remember correctly). However, it does mean you’d have even less anti infantry.

However, don’t underestimate the amount anti infantry the shadow spectres and hemlocks will be able to put out along with Maugan-Ra. My only concern is that you could find yourself not having your Spiritseer in range of the Spectres every so often to Quicken them so you might have to rely on the other profile on the weapon initially.

Remember – you only need to be able to kill about 18 out of 30 boyz to make the unit run (if they are alone, otherwise you have to kill 18 in each unit). For Guard, if you can kill a unit of 10 you’ll likely be fine going forward. Brimstones and potentially nids could be where the new problem is at.

The Spiritseer will be deploying with Shiftshroud, so he will be right there with them up front, outside of 12" though, just in case they get frisky and want to snipe my dude. But yea, he will be close enough to Quicken one unit on T1, so they can get in for the Diffuse hits, while the second unit is behind them shooting at 18" hoping for lots of extra hits. After T1, the slower Spiritseer might have issues, but I'll have to just play that by ear.

As for the hordes - I am really glad my meta isn't that heavy on them. But I expect a surge in 'Nids, so that has me worried a bit.

Here is a new list with a similar direction - I am working hard to make something that can really thrive in an all-comer environment that puts emphasis on objective games, not just gimmicky stuff.

Ulthwe Battalion 3CP

HQ:
Eldrad
Guide, Fortune, Doom
[150]

Warlock
Conceal/Reveal
[35]

Troops:
(20) Guardian Defenders (WW)
2x Shuriken Cannons
[190]

(10) Dire Avengers
Double Shurikens
[124]

(10) Dire Avengers
Double Shurikens
[124]

[623]

Alaitoc Battalion 3CP

HQ:
Spiritseer
Quicken/Restrain
[45]

Illic Nightspear
[80]

Elites:
(10) Shadow Spectres (WW)
Exarch
[234]

Troops:
(5) Rangers
[60]

(5) Rangers
[60]

(5) Rangers
[60]

Heavy:
Fire Prism
Prism Cannon, Shuriken Cannon, Spirit Stones
[175]

Fire Prism
Prism Cannon, Shuriken Cannon, Spirit Stones
[175]

(6) Dark Reapers
AML
[165]

Dedicated:
Wave Serpent
Twin Shuriken Cannon, Shuriken Cannon
Spirit Stones
[144]

Flyer:
Crimson Hunter Exarch
Pulse Laser, 2x Bright Lances
[175]

[1373]

[1996]

The overall strategy here is a mix of denial and firepower. Nothing is particularly expensive, nothing particularly vital (except maybe Eldrad). The Guardians drop in and try hard to disrupt the enemy movement as well as pepper them with firepower. Ideally, Eldrad will be in range to stack on some Guide and Fortune, while the Warlock nearby can try to toss Conceal on them too. DotBG Strategem is an option to boost their shooting as well - this is a lot of firepower and with the right buffs and the Shurikens up front, Fortune, and the Ulthwe trait, they will not shift too easily (I know they won't last too long though, but they are a distraction and disruption element). The Shadow Specters and Spiritseer (close by thanks to Shiftshroud) do their Quicken deal. If that doesn't work and they can't get close enough for Diffuse fire, they can just opt for Coherent fire. The Reapers hide in the Serpent (which adds a trio of Shuriken cannons to the mix) with any characters not needed on the table elsewhere to minimize drops and protect the DR from enemy T1. Dire Avengers are a nice ObSec unit that is going to be able to shoot from behind the Guardians or camp and shoot up anything that gets close (with the Overwatch perk just being gravy). The Rangers are area denial - especially spread out against deep strikers. They can plink away at characters and Illic is a mean dude. That rifle should put a hurt on opposing characters not hidden well enough.

The list has 7 units in reserve with about 9 drops - less if characters ride in the Serpent. Being able to keep a lot in Reserve forces them to place units and lets me react to their deployment. With 9CP to toss around, I can Phantasm if needed. I can also use Forewarned on the Dark Reapers if I leave them out of the WS (some scenarios this might work). To help ensure I get my powers off, Eldrad has a +1 and then I can always Seer Council to buff the Warlock too. Sadly that is restricted by Craftworld. :( Fire & Fade seems like a solid option and of course Linked Fire so I can open up armor. The CHE is also on tank hunter duty - since it doesn't need to get close it should be at -2 to-hit, so it wont' die easy. Plus, Marksman's Eye is nice. Four S8 shots that will cut through most saves and do solid damage should augment the Prisms nicely. Especially with Guard being so prevalent in my area.

The list is really doesn't have a deathstar or obvious hammer unit, but it isn't necessarily MSU. I think being able to have lots of psykers, firepower and deployment options is its main strength. Losing any one unit (except maybe Eldrad) isn't going to heavily cripple me.

Thoughts? Ideas?

Remember that Fortune and Ulthwe trait do not stack. You can only use one or the other. So Fortune is best used on your Alaitoc Units. Shadow Spectres or Reapers could be good though. Not many good targets for it.

Drake003 wrote:
Remember that Fortune and Ulthwe trait do not stack. You can only use one or the other. So Fortune is best used on your Alaitoc Units. Shadow Spectres or Reapers could be good though. Not many good targets for it.

Ah, I see that caveat now. Shame it doesn't stack, that would be fantastic.

Since I will be pretty up close with Eldrad, I'll probably stick it on the Specters. They would benefit nicely since they will be pretty close to the action and are only a 3+ save on a T3 1W model.

I like the list a lot. As a preference for a fairly stand off and shoot army such as this, I like to have a counter assault element. I think a 4 strong unit of Shining Spears would fit well, but trying to decide where to find points.

 Sarigar wrote:
I like the list a lot. As a preference for a fairly stand off and shoot army such as this, I like to have a counter assault element. I think a 4 strong unit of Shining Spears would fit well, but trying to decide where to find points.

I can hope that the -1 to-hit on the Reapers is sufficient, cut the Serpent, and add in the Spears. I have room for 4 no trouble. Good to have options. They certainly would be a nice mobile threat.

I doubt -1 on reapers will be sufficient. -2 from conceal could still get the job done. That being said a unit of 6 won’t stand up to much so I think you would be better off either maxing out or maybe even dropping them. Tho if you are set on maugen ra then you kinda need to keep them.
From the original lists I think both struggle due to no farseer. With the way 8th edition works it is an auto include for access to doom. Especially with lots of shuriken wielding dudes running around you have some surprisingly reliable anti tank when coupled with doom.

Wyldcarde wrote:
I doubt -1 on reapers will be sufficient. -2 from conceal could still get the job done. That being said a unit of 6 won’t stand up to much so I think you would be better off either maxing out or maybe even dropping them. Tho if you are set on maugen ra then you kinda need to keep them.
From the original lists I think both struggle due to no farseer. With the way 8th edition works it is an auto include for access to doom. Especially with lots of shuriken wielding dudes running around you have some surprisingly reliable anti tank when coupled with doom.

Definitely would Conceal them, but that doesn't help with the alpha strike, which is why they have the WS originally. No Maugen anymore - he just didn't seem worth it.

Also, I have Doom in the most recent incarnation via Eldrad, who will be up front in the thick of things so he can toss it on enemy units that need to die.

Yeah cool. I like the updated list better if that is where you are leaning. Not sure how the foot slogging dire avengers will go. My experience with infantry on foot isn’t great as there are so many efficient ways to wipe infantry. Tho hopefully with guardians in their face and reapers to worry about they will be low on the kill list.
I’d personally find points for a hemlock still, even over a second fire prism. They are so good. They are always first inclusion in any eldar list I write, usually 2.

Wyldcarde wrote:
Yeah cool. I like the updated list better if that is where you are leaning. Not sure how the foot slogging dire avengers will go. My experience with infantry on foot isn’t great as there are so many efficient ways to wipe infantry. Tho hopefully with guardians in their face and reapers to worry about they will be low on the kill list.
I’d personally find points for a hemlock still, even over a second fire prism. They are so good. They are always first inclusion in any eldar list I write, usually 2.

On the slogging units - I may actually go from DA to more Guardians. Cheaper and about as efficient - plus, larger squads with Cannon options. Why put points into quality units that may never make it anywhere worthwhile? The idea was the good Overwatch, but is that really worth it?

Also, the two Prisms is a must, imo. Linked Fire makes them stupid good and they shoot twice now like a Russ. The Hemmy is good, but I think the Prism is a better all-round option. I am even erring to the CHE for anti-tank because a Hemmy has to get close, often losing that extra -1 to-hit, while the CHE sits back and shoots at range. That being said... I am considering adding one! The Reapers feel superfluous, because between the CHE and Prisms, I should be fine on antitank and a Hemmy is good for a lot of targets. May also just opt for transports for the DA (or Guardians if I go that route).

I'll probably post an updated list later, when I can find one I like.

Yeah fire prisms are great. On paper.
Against an opponent that knows what they are doing that second one is priority one to kill tho. To shut down the linked fire access.
Firing twice is great hence why taking one is good, the second one just has a huge target tho.
Further, the stratagem costs cp to make them extra good (they are good without don’t get me wrong) for an army that has a lot of good stratagems.
If you do linked fire them the fact the first one has to shoot at the end of the shooting phase can make for some difficult decisions in relation to overkilling, or worse, underkilling their target. First prism is unlikely to kill it. If it does second shots are wasted anyway. If it doesn’t, how much extra firepower do you put into the target? Put too much into it and the second prism is wasted. Put too little or fluff the second prism shots and you don’t drop the target, which is most likely priority one to kill.
The fire prisms are definitely a good choice at the moment due to their double firing tho.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I really rate hemlocks due to their reliability against a lot of targets. And they are amazing against other fliers especially now due to their upgrade to Str 12. Auto hit 2s to wound usually no save d2 shots will put the hurt on

Eh, target prioritization doesn't worry me. I don't have to Link Fire for them to be good. Being able to is just a major perk. 2d3 S9 -4 d3 damage shots is pretty great on its own, but having 4d3 re-rolling hits and wounds is solid. That is an average of 12 damage (before any invulns). For 1CP, that is good stuff.

Linked Fire does not require my second Prism to have LoS, so I can park them both behind blocking terrain, roll up with one (half move) and toss out my Linked Fire shot against a must-kil target. Plus, being so far away they will be at -1 to-hit.

A Hemlock on its own will average about 5 damage (3's to wound) and whatever Smite does. That is solid, but doesn't have a big turn or anything. It is just consistently laying in damage over turns unless the dice swing wildly (but so can the Prism's dice). It really does shine bright against T6 stuff, where 2's to wound up the damage output. This means most flyers and light armor. I think the Prisms help focus down on heavy stuff, as does the CHE (with built in re-roll to-hit 1's and wounds against Fly units, which includes hovertanks).

Yeah agree. Fire prisms are good. I just don’t think 2 are must have.
Head to head the fire prisms and hemlock damage output is pretty similar. 2d3 Str 9 -4 d3 damage vs 2d3 Str12 -4 ap 2d. Hemlock autohit puts them ahead obviously.
And hemlocks with smite is great, but also having access to jinx and denying adds up.
Both are good choices tho, hence why both make the cut for my army currently.

Wyldcarde wrote:
Yeah agree. Fire prisms are good. I just don’t think 2 are must have.
Head to head the fire prisms and hemlock damage output is pretty similar. 2d3 Str 9 -4 d3 damage vs 2d3 Str12 -4 ap 2d. Hemlock autohit puts them ahead obviously.
And hemlocks with smite is great, but also having access to jinx and denying adds up.
Both are good choices tho, hence why both make the cut for my army currently.

I will probably run a variant list with a pair of them (in place of the CHE, Reapers, and something else - maybe going DA to Guardians).

It is nice to have options - especially lots of good options!

Yep. The new codex definitely makes list building a challenge to fit in all the awesome stuff.